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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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LGBTQ+ studies Project‑class

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Albert Fish's GAR

Albert Fish, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. GamerPro64 02:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Categorization of LGBT people

This has probably been discussed before, so I wanted to bring it up here before taking any action. Why do we categorize people as "LGBT" something when more specific categories (especially Category:Gay men and Category:Lesbians) exist? I thought it was odd that we have Category:LGBT people by nationality but not Category:Gay men by nationality or Category:Lesbians by nationality. So Mathieu Chantelois is an LGBT person from Canada, not a gay Canadian (or gay Canadian male, if "gay" is deemed too broad). I understand some individuals won't neatly fit into one letter of LGBT, but when they do, doesn't it make sense to have more specific categories? --BDD (talk) 18:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

See this discussion (and perhaps the one immediately above it) at Misplaced Pages:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality. The short answer is this: Some people have come out as being a part of the LGBT community (sexuality-wise or both sexuality and support-wise)...without specifying their sexual orientation. And per WP:BLPCAT, they shouldn't be placed in a sexual orientation category unless they have identified with the sexual orientation in question. And then there are the historical figures whose sexuality/sexual orientation has been debated as being non-heterosexual, but their sexuality and sexual orientation has never been confirmed; not to mention...the concept of sexual orientation did not exist during the time that some of these historical figures were alive (though opposite-sex and same-sex sexual attraction has always existed). Flyer22 (talk) 18:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, you raise some really good points there. I hadn't considered that people who appear to be simply gay or lesbian may in fact be bisexual (bisexual invisibility strikes again!). But where we have reliable statements that "he came out as gay" or "she came out as lesbian," surely we can categorize them more specifically than LGBT, right? So I could go ahead and create and populate Category:Gay men by nationality and Category:Lesbians by nationality, for example? --BDD (talk) 18:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course. But I'd rather wait and see what others of this project have to state about this topic you've brought up and specifically the proposed categories, if anything at all. Flyer22 (talk) 18:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually...it can be tricky simply going by sources stating that a person came out as gay, lesbian or bisexual. And this is because the author (or authors) of any given source may have categorized the person as such when the person has not categorized him- or herself as such to the author and/or publicly. As currently noted above on this talk page (the "Sexual orientation/sexual identity discussions with regard to categorizing LGBT people" section), this has happened with Jodie Foster (though I believe it's clear that Foster has at least come out as LGBT). This is why it's better to go by a statement from the person confirming his or her sexual orientation. Flyer22 (talk) 19:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Similarly, it seems to be quite common these days for someone to indirectly come out by mentioning their partner/spouse, and that doesn't actually tell us if they're gay/lesbian or if they're bi. - htonl (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

By and large, the practice of this project has been to avoid subdividing "LGBT" categories into distinct subcategories for each individual letter, except in a few very specific cases where a single "LGBT" category would be populated into the thousands. That goes for occupational categories (a few of which have quadranted subcategories but most of which do not) and for "nationality" ones (none of which have the quadrants and none of which have sufficient population to need them anyway).

Particularly because LGBT-related categorization is still a sensitive issue that raises WP:BLP concerns, the project's goal when it comes to "LGBT people" categories has always been to strike a balance: we want there to be enough categories for the tree to be useful, but we also don't want there to be so many categories that the tree becomes too unwieldy to properly monitor for vandalism or BLP issues. And accordingly, part of the balance that was chosen was to keep most categories at the common "LGBT" level rather than comprehensively subdividing them, and to allow quadrant-specific subcategories only in cases where the common "LGBT" category was getting large enough to need the breakdown on size grounds.

Just as an example to illustrate the problem, let's say that you created "Gay men from Canada", "Lesbians from Canada", "Bisexual people from Canada" and "Transgender and transsexual people from Canada". A lot of people could be filtered down into the subcategories, true, but there would still be a few people who would have to be left in the main Category:LGBT people from Canada parent for the reasons noted above — with the result being that instead of having one category to monitor for vandals who still think it's funny to add Justin Bieber, you now have five.

Now keep going, and maybe you'll see the problem even more clearly: every "LGBT" category that we have on Misplaced Pages turns into five categories instead of one? Dear gawd, please no. Bearcat (talk) 08:29, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Homosexual propaganda/promotion of homosexuality

While the world's eyes are on Russia at the moment, that phrase is not exactly a new concept. As British editors will recall, we had our own "promotion of homosexuality" law (which, thank Christ, only applied to schools and local councils) which got repealed ten years ago. However, the idea of homosexual propaganda still exists here (I've come across four schools whose SRE policies prohibit it, despite the Equality Act), and Section 28 is often brought up to compare similar proposed (but never passed) laws and bill amendments, both here and overseas. I seem to remember Tennessee had what was effectively Section 28 passed a few years ago, for example?

In any case, the idea of homosexuality as something that can be "promoted", and this being an excuse to oppose or roll back LGBT rights, is a possible case for an article; do others think this is the case? Sceptre 00:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you have an overarching source for this or are you proposing we begin the research for such?--Mark 00:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm gauging thoughts on this. The Telegraph today directly compares Section 28 to the Russian law, if you were looking for sources to start with. Sceptre 05:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

RFC on LGBT rights under international law

Members of WikiProject LGBT studies are invited to participate at a Request for Comments concerning material on African countries' obligations under international law to protect LGBT rights. —Psychonaut (talk) 12:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I hope editors will not be misled by your heading. The Africa-specific content is just a piece of this. The questions the RfC poses are far more general. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, the whole RFC arises because, before LGBT rights under international law was created, its content was posted to a dozen or so "LGBT in <African country>" articles. One of the main questions of the RFC is to decide whether it's appropriate for the material to remain on those pages. But I suppose you're correct that the RFC isn't solely about that, so I've updated the section heading here and will see about changing it on other noticeboards. —Psychonaut (talk) 12:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

More eyes at Coalition for Marriage

Hi guys, can i get some more eyes at the Coalition for Marriage article. I'm not able to scrutinise every edit at the moment and strangely the article is attracting more brand new users than it was when it was in the news on a weekly basis. Thanks ツ Jenova20 10:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Manning and Talk:Gender identity disorder#Updates required to reflect DSM-5

This and this are matters some of you might be interested in commenting on. Flyer22 (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was just going to recommend that editors weigh in Talk:Chelsea Manning discussion as there are a lot of misconceptions flying around. Liz 00:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Noting here some different places this matter has spilled: Here, here, here, here. And even a WP:BOLD attempt by an IP to change MOS:IDENTITY, which was reverted. And, of course, there's the news (as in the media). Flyer22 (talk) 05:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY FAQ

After seeing the debates at Chaz Bono, Laura Jane Grace, and now Chelsea Manning regarding MOS:IDENTITY, it seems like some sort of essay might be helpful explaining the basic principles behind the guideline. I don't think the level of understanding of trans issues in the general public is very high, and a quick overview might make a lot of things clearer for many editors. Do we have anything like that?

I've done up a draft here; please feel free to edit, as I am not an expert on transgender issues. I think it would ultimately live best as a project space essay, perhaps at WP:GENDERIDENTITY.--Trystan (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

My thanks to the editors who have participated. I've gone ahead and moved it to Misplaced Pages:Gender identity, with a redirect from the above.--Trystan (talk) 13:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Splitting Homophobia in the black community

I have proposed that Homophobia in the black community should be split into separate articles Homophobia in the African American community and Homophobia in the Black British community anybody with opinions would be most welcome.Dwanyewest (talk) 20:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Why not merge into Homophobia? It's not exactly a lot of content and it's likely to duplicate a lot of the same sources and content. Thanks ツ Jenova20 09:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose I really don't think Homophobia in the Black British community would be able to stand on its own. And as to Jenova20's question this is about a form of inter-minority prejudice not just one side. And very few of the sources are used in both articles.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 02:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The titles, and the scope/POV they invite seems non-neutral. This goes for both Homophobia in the black community and Homophobia in the Latino community. Misplaced Pages doesn't have any other "Homophobia in X community" articles. If they are kept, they should be renamed and constructed neutrally, similar to how the articles in Category:LGBT topics and religion are handled. Siawase (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe "Homosexuality and race"? Teammm 
_email 17:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does have other inter-minority prejudice articles please see Racism in the LGBT community as well as African-American–Jewish relations. If you would like Homophobia in the X community why not add it. However if you are going to take down the two articles in question you should address all four evenly so not as to show bias.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

African-American–Jewish relations appears to be neutrally named and constructed though. If it was named similar to Homophobia in the black community it would be named "Anti-semitism in the black community" and/or "Anti-black racism in the Jewish community" (topics which are both covered more neutrally within the broader African-American–Jewish relations article.)

Racism in the LGBT community looks like it might have neutrality problems too though. It's probable the intersection of race and LGBT could be covered more neutrally, maybe a broader article covering race and LGBT that includes the contents of the Racism in the LGBT community, Homophobia in the black community, Homophobia in the Latino community as well as other content like intersectional activism (ie, activism against racism as well as homophobia, transphobia etc.) Siawase (talk) 04:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I have already tried to do this with Racism in the LGBT community article long before the other two existed. How can we assure it will work this time?-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, from a quick look at Talk:Racism in the LGBT community it seems that it has been nominated for deletion several times, but a formal move request to see if consensus can be found for changing/broadening the scope has not been tried, so maybe that would be a good place to start? Siawase (talk) 08:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm somewhat convinced. I really do think that having all three topics addressed neutrally sounds better. Besides I was going to add articles on Homophobia in the Asian diaspora, Homophobia in the Native American community, Homophobia in the Arab Community and Homophobia in the Jewish community anyway. That might be easier in one article on LGBT-Ethnic minority relations.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 08:48, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Yeah, a larger article covering several ethnicities sounds like a good idea. Some might not have enough material to warrant stand-alone articles. Maybe model it after the LGBT and religion topics article? There would also be some overlap where we already have articles like Judaism and sexual orientation for example. I still don't think the "Homophobia in..." format is neutral, and indeed, some of the content already in the Homophobia in the Black Diasporic community (like the number of openly LGBT people, or president Obama speaking out against homophobia) would fit better under a more general "LGBT and the Black Diasporic community" rubric. Siawase (talk) 09:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Follow up after thinking it over. How about a more general race/ethnicity and LGBT article with a listing (similar to LGBT and religion topics) of all the ethnicities you mentioned, as well as the ones in Racism in the LGBT community, and then under the header for each ethnicity mention racism experienced by LGBT members of that ethnicity, homophobia and/or acceptance within the ethnicity, gay rights and other activism within that community (like Obama's statement) and any other more general information (like the number of out people.) I think that could come out workable and neutral. Siawase (talk) 11:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok so I have basically three things I think I should mention. A) I think its going to be difficult to convince the people at Racism in the LGBT community to agree to this and B) I need to know whether I could still create the other articles even though they are going to be infused later. C) I think it should be known that Jewish and Judaism are two very different things. And that not all homophobia in the Jewish community is due to Judaism.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 03:04, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I've added a new article Homophobia in the Asian American community. I've decided to continue creating them and when we are ready we can fuse them all into one.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 03:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Article titles for transgendered people

This discussion may be of interest to readers of this talk page. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:MOSFLAG

Totally serendipitously, I've stumbled upon what looks to me like an aspect of the "List of lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender-related films" pages that is out of synch with the Manual of Style guideline on flag icons. Beyond notifying this wiki-project about it, I'm going to leave the issue alone. It's my hope that there will be a recognition here that the flags provide no additional information beyond that already conveyed by the names of the countries they decorate. That's the logic behind the guideline. Happy editing. David in DC (talk) 03:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Pangender

An article in this WikiProject, Pangender, has been proposed for a merge with the article Genderqueer. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. April Arcus (talk) 07:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing topics page

I have updated Missing LGBT topics - Skysmith (talk) 10:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Lawsuit article needed, any takers?

Hey all, after reading this news story about a victory for same-sex couples in the case of Cooper-Harris v. United States, I went looking for the wikiarticle but all I can find is one short mention here. Since this case has major effects regarding veterans benefits for same-sex couples, seems like it deserves its own article. I don't have time to create one and track down refs and legal citations - anyone else want to give it a go? Textorus (talk) 17:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

More eyes at LGBT rights in Russia

Can I get more eyes at the LGBT rights in Russia article. IP users are making many questionable and POV edits. Thanks!--В и к и T 19:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Template:MOS-TM and Template:MOS-TW have been nominated for deletion

Template:MOS-TM and Template:MOS-TW have been nominated for deletion. Please comment at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 31#Template:MOS-TM and Template:MOS-TW. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Christine Jorgensen

Go to the bottom of Talk:Christine Jorgensen and you'll see a discussion between just 2 users; myself and User:JanetWand. JanetWand appears to believe that I don't understand the difference between gender and sex. The truth is that I do, but that gender is the method that Misplaced Pages is supposed to use when determining how to refer to trans people. Anyone (besides JanetWand) able to reveal their thoughts on the discussion?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Georgia guy does not seem to be able to demonstrate his understanding of the terms, and is making a superfluous edit of the term male to female when referring to the process that Ms. Jorgensen underwent in her transition, going from male to female. He seems to think that using male is offensive here, but I say it is not, but is merely the truth in describing what occurred and the conventional expression. I am a transwoman, and it does not offend me, however, we would like to hear from others. I feel confident that I can demonstrate that this is how medical professionals refer to the procedure, which by itself should be enough to render GeorgiaGuy's argument baseless. GeorgiaGuy is working with another user, both of whom seem to have the agenda of revising gender terminology, which is a noble cause, but one which oversteps its usefulness here, in my opinion. At the very least his argument represents a fringe movement, not the concensus view. However, the subject is open to discussion. JanetWand (talk) 20:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

For clarification, I have a big concern that people who see the term "male-to-female" on Misplaced Pages will think that it's perfectly okay for Misplaced Pages to say that trans women actually were men, as opposed to women trapped in men's bodies, before the surgery operation. Georgia guy (talk) 01:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

As I understand the discussion so far, Janet's argument is that using the term "male-to-female" does not imply that trans women were men before; it means that they had men's bodies. So why all the fuss? Diego Moya (talk) 06:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The term literally gives equality to the 2 bodies as if the earlier body wasn't wrong. We need to refer to trans women as follows: they were women throughout their lives; they simply had the wrong body before being corrected with surgery. Their gender identity is unambiguously female. Can you (someone other than JanetWand) explain why the term "male-to-female" doesn't imply that they actually were men before the surgery operation?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:GLAAD Media Award winners

Category:GLAAD Media Award winners has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 06:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Daniel Kawczynski

Daniel Kawczynski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Got a bit of a conundrum here: the article, by following the sources, states that Kawczynski is the first MP to come out as bisexual, in 2013, which is only technically correct; Ron Davies came out in 2003 after stepping down as an MP in 2001 (and while stepping down as an AM) and Simon Hughes was outed and subsequently came out in 2006. The problem is, I can't find sources saying that either Davies or Hughes were the first bisexual MPs. So we've got a situation where the sources imply something that is factually wrong. Sceptre 19:40, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

RfC on pronouns throughout life

Hello everyone - you are all invited to participate in an RfC on whether or not to use the current preferred pronouns of a transgender person throughout that person's life. As editors interested in and knowledgeable about LGBT topics, I would appreciate your feedback. Thank you. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Matthew Shepard

FYI, a discussion regarding the inclusion of claims made in a forthcoming book is underway at Talk:Matthew Shepard#The Book of Matt. Rivertorch (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

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