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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Feminism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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	Feminism has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 10, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed August 19, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed June 18, 2008 Peer review Reviewed December 7, 2011 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

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By consensus, guideline, or policy Criticism about feminism is already covered with appropriate weight and sourcing. If you seek coverage beyond what you see, consider whether you are proposing content that is more suitable for other articles or for a non-Wikimedia website. If a criticism you wish to add lacks an adequate source, please find one first. Edits for other pages may be offered there, not here. Examples include content for specialized articles and Misplaced Pages policies, which have their own pages and their own talk pages. This is only an introductory article on feminism. To find specialized subarticles within feminism, please click on links in the feminism article, including in any sidebar. Feminism is inherently one-sided. Feminism is a critique of society. That means there is a disagreement between feminism and society. In that case, generally, if society is neutral, feminism is not. Misplaced Pages requires neutrality, but that applies to Misplaced Pages articles, not to feminism itself, nor to any source. As long as the article is neutral in how it presents its general subject, Misplaced Pages's requirement for neutrality is fulfilled. This article does not cover what feminism does not cover. If there are few feminist disagreements in a given society, feminism may have nothing to say about many subjects in that society. Misplaced Pages reports on feminism in accordance with reliable sources. Consistency with a particular political message is not this article's purpose. This article represents many sources with appropriate balance. While mainstream feminism is emphasized, other branches of feminism are also covered. The content of this article meets Misplaced Pages's Good Article Criteria. Content being added to this article must conform to the community's quality standards for "Good Articles". Material not meeting these criteria should be removed and rewritten appropriately to fit them.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Feminism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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No mention of criticism of pseudoscientific views

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article does not seem to adequately note that there's a lot of criticism even among feminists that feminism in academia promotes pseudoscientific views on human nature, especially innate psychological differences between the sexes. The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker (a feminist) would be an excellent source to cite for such material. Aelius28 (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Those are not criticisms of feminism; they are criticisms of particular feminists, or at most of particular schools or ideologies of feminism. They have no place in a general article on feminism as a whole. Steven Pinker is an evolutionary psychologist, and is certainly not known as a feminist of any school. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Where else would such criticism go, if not in this article? Antifeminism seems to be a page reserved mostly for traditionalists and conservatives who do not like feminism because feminism does not conform to their antiquated, usually religiously-based, beliefs about the "natural order of things". I am not aware of any other article except this one where a criticism of academic feminism's endemic pseudoscience and denial of human nature could go. As for Steven Pinker, he is defined even in Misplaced Pages as a feminist. The fact that he is not primarily regarded as a feminist seems irrelevant to me. Restricting criticism of Group X to only include members of Group X seems like a sure way to silence criticism. Should we exclude criticism of 9/11 conspiracy theories that come from people who do not believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Should we ignore all non-astrologer's criticisms of astrology? Aelius28 (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

OrangeMike has already answered you Aelius28. If there are criticisms of Pinker they belong in his article--Cailil 12:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure which way you mean the criticism: of or by Pinker's (or others') work. If it is "of", the criticism goes into an article about Pinker or other person/s or into any subarticle within feminism about a feminist topic that centers on that which is being criticized. If it is "by", the criticism goes into any subarticle within feminism about a feminist topic that centers on that which is being criticized. This feminism article is a summary overview and either such criticism does not have the weight needed for this article but if it fits a subarticle then it can go there, if such criticism is not already there (perhaps about a different person with similar views). Pinker has identified himself as feminist and as believing in equal rights (my words and approximate, from a radio interview I heard) although that is not his major work (my judgment after having read a couple of his books); at any rate, criticism is not limited to that from feminists or to that from nonfeminists. Nick Levinson (talk) 16:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's still not clear to me which subarticle you expect such criticism to go in, if not this article. Aelius28 (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That depends on the specific content you want to add. The feminism artice has several navigational aids, such as the two sidebars on the right near the top and more on the bottom, that link to other articles, such as feminist psychology. There may also be other articles worth addressing, such as evolutionary psychology. In either case, you may have to follow more links to more specific articles. But where to edit depends on the criticism and what it criticizes. Nick Levinson (talk) 20:42, 6 July 2013 (UTC) (Added sentence: 20:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC))

As OrangeMike has indicated, this is an article about feminism in general. If Pinker calls himself a feminist, presumably his criticisms aren't of feminism in general. I believe the concerns you're raising are covered here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Social_constructionism#Criticisms. Giordanob (talk) 04:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this violates the NPOV. The article about Men's_rights_movement has more than 6 (six) sections of criticism, refuting practically everything the movement states (on the main page about the whole movement). Applying another standard for feminism (that there may be no criticism on the very page, except one link and literally one or two mentions of criticism, but ONLY from feminist themselves) is a direct violation of NPOV. Misplaced Pages should be neutral, and not giving one movement a leeway over another in their presentations. There exists a lot of legitimate criticism of feminism in entirety, and not only different threads of it. - Vorpal Saber (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Your idea of balance is not the same as Misplaced Pages's. On Misplaced Pages, a balance is reached when mainstream views are represented as strongly as in the published literature, and minor views are represented with an appropriate amount of less strength. The scholarly criticisms of the MRM are many, so we tell that to the reader. The scholarly criticisms of feminism pale against the great mass of scholarly praise. We do not try to set up an artificial parity where there is none in the real world. Binksternet (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

This article needs more on violence against women

There needs to be detailed discussion of violence against women, on how it was, and continues to be in many countries, legitimized by culture, tradition, religion and law - on the role of feminists in changing these laws and social norms. A section to discus these issues is necessary. As pointed up above, some young readers may not be aware that just a few decades ago, men could legally beat, rape and even kill (for adultery) their wives. And when I'm talking about killing for adultery, I'm not referring only to fundamentalist Muslim societies- it was relatively recently that the US courts stopped considering such killings as justifiable homicide or excusable homicide. Just look at this ] where in 1938 a Chicago jury acquitted the husband for the PREMEDITATED murder of his wife's lover (he was killed on a street corner). Killing of wife or her lover when caught in the act was aquitable in many states up until the 1980s/1990s. And crimes of passion were until recently/ and still are legal in many Latin American states. As of 2010 "passion provoked by adultery" can lead to acquittal of a man who murders his wife in Uruguay (one of the most liberal countries in Latin America.]). The role of feminists in changing social norms and laws related to violence against women has to be discussed in detail.2A02:2F0A:504F:FFFF:0:0:50C:DDEE (talk) 04:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Source the feminist part of that and write it. The 1938 story (I did not read past the jump) had nothing, at least on the first page, about feminist response. Likely, many good sources exist. A section in this article would be appropriate. Feminist support for the Violence Against Women Act (a U.S. statute) (approximate title) and writings by Andrea Dworkin and several other authors come to mind. This article is a summary; if subarticles don't have enough coverage, add it there; either way, summarize here. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Feminism versus Egalitarianism

Feminism, as the opening line states, is more about the rights of women (which it should be). I'm aware that there are people who are trying to push it to be more about equality, but IMO there's a better term for that already - egalitarianism - which doesn't inherently bias itself through its history or its name. The links that 'support' feminism as being about gender equality seem to be primarily opinion pieces, rather than hard evidence cited in support of this - should they really be included as part of the supposed statements of feminism if they're opinion, no matter how academically qualified or cited, rather than fact? This, of course, is the danger of an article about something so fluid as a social concept, but the opening line does a good job of defining feminism, and it does it in a way that precludes it as a movement for gender equality (which I continue to have trouble believing it to be - feminists do not march in support, as a whole, for male rights where they are required, such as with children and in family court, after all - and nor should they.) Berym (talk) 06:42, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article rather than for discussing the topic in general. If you have an actionable concern about the article then state it clearly. Binksternet (talk) 07:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death Berym. Misplaced Pages records what sources say not what you "believe it to be". If you are making edits to this page in relation to the men's rights movement (as you have inferred with the statement "feminists do not march in support, as a whole, for male rights") you need to understand that such edits are under probation. Making edits based on your own beliefs about a subject in an area under probation is not a good idea--Cailil 12:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Nineteenth and early twentieth centuries

The section (and the whole article) fails to discuss issues dealing with family law, namely abolishing coverture, and focuses too much on voting right, which, though very important, was by no means the only demand and concern of feminists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skydeepblue (talk • contribs) 08:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Skydeepblue. As explained by myself on your talk page and by Nick in his edit summary the problem with your first edit to that section is that you a) provided no sources for your changes b) altered information that was cited to particular sources into a state that does not reflect the referenced material and c) the edit resulted in confused grammar and syntax.

You're 100% right that voting was not the sole issue you just need to add sources for material--Cailil 11:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please see my edit summary for why you were reverted. This article is about feminism generally. The issue of coverture is important but only in relation to Feminism. Sourcing/summarizing it generally is not useful here. Adding information directly about how the C19th feminism campaign for reform of coverture would however be useful.

Please also avoid copy-pasting text from other wikipedia articles to here. Also please note how we are using the {{cite}} template--Cailil 15:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that coverture (and numerous other subjects) are not addressed at all in this article. Someone not familiar with feminism and reading this article would simply not understand what feminism is about - ie, what was/is it campaigning for; what did it/does it seek to achieve; and what has it achieved? These are questions which are largely left unanswered by this article.Skydeepblue (talk) 16:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I do understand that "This article is about feminism generally", but the article is much too vague. Editors must approach articles with an understanding that many readers may have absolutely no clue about the subject, and reading WP may be their first time being exposed to the subject.Skydeepblue (talk) 16:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point but it's not a matter of being vague, it's a matter of information and context. There is a section for feminism's impact on society, but I see your point regarding a general Women's rights section, perhaps near the top of the article. Maybe a summary of the women's rights article (as per WP:SUMMARY) would solve that issue. It wouldn't be able to explicate everything but just like every other section would link to a full article on the issues (i.e coverture, property rights, the history of women and the law, suffrage, rape laws and contraception)--Cailil 17:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The details of what the first wave feminists were fighting for should be in the main article about First-wave feminism, while this general article should provide a brief summary. All of the 19th century concerns about coverture, etc, were judged by Anthony and many others to be of lesser importance than suffrage because these issues divided the early feminists. They were united only on the issue of suffrage which was seen as the key to unlock further political influence. Binksternet (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

In essence I agree Binksternet but Skydeepblue has made me aware of something. The article is structured thus: it discusses feminist theory, the history of the movements, the various ideological groupings, its impact on sexuality, society, politics and culture, and then reactions to it. There's no brief summary of its background, i.e women's rights except in the lede. And that's not what the lede is for, it's just for summarizing the article's content. We should expand or should move the discussion of what women's rights are to a new section above the one for feminist theory. Or indeed we should make feminist theory a sub section of it. There is something useful in Skydeepblue's comments, even if we don't address coverture--Cailil 21:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Lucy Stone

The very strong 19th century US influence of Lucy Stone should be in this article. In her day, Stone was the equal of Anthony and Stanton, probably even more influential because she had more followers. Binksternet (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Just so I'm clear here...

There won't be any criticism of Feminism allowed on its Misplaced Pages page, will there be? Doesn't really matter what I cite... what I post. You'll find a reason not to accept it. Then you'll ban me, or accuse me of whatever and then ban me.

There's only going to be one view presented on Feminism and you guys are going to make sure that's the only view we get, right? Because something tells me I'm not the first person to point out there's no criticism on Feminism allowed on the Feminism page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Cappadocia (talk • contribs) 15:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

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