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• Talk:Muhammad/archive 1

  1 What do you mean shai POV? 2 WTF!?! 3 Problems? 3.1 Biggest deficiencies 3.2 Wiki to begin obeying the Shariat? 3.3 article is not neutral 3.4 General thoughts about the article 3.5 The incongruities section 3.6 Razzia section 3.7 aims or claims 3.8 Muhammad 3.9 Caliphate Expansion 3.10 Religious neutrality 3.11 NPOV warnings 3.12 death 3.13 A more scholarly article? 3.14 Major revision 3.15 References 3.16 Broke up pro and con section, moved it to other parts of article 3.17 Question 3.18 OneGuy and his reverts 3.19 Fight on another page, please 3.20 Aisha's marriage and consumation 3.21 Aisha 3.22 Boys over 12 3.23 Ibn Hisam Puberty Quote 3.24 Anonymous deleter 3.25 Edit war in Muhammad as warrior 3.26 Created Muhammad as warrior page 3.27 The criticism sections 3.28 Rearranged per Mustafaa's suggestions 3.29 Islam before Muhammad 3.30 Timeline 3.31 Your restraint is appreciated, IFaqeer 3.32 Someone unclear on the concept put these here 3.33 Latest revisions 3.34 These latest additions about Ali are seriously biased 3.35 Death of Muhammad 3.36 Describing first revelation

• Talk:Muhammad/archive 2:

  1 Companions 2 Founding Islam 3 Someone revised history! 4 Mohammed, Muhammed, Mohammad 5 Boasting 6 Pedophile 7 Muhammad's death: Malaria 8 Battle of Badr 9 Did Mohamed attempt suicide? 10 Onward! 11 Reverting Urchid's edit 12 re:changes to this article 13 Couple things: tomb inside the mosque in Medina... 14 Proposed insertion in intro 14.1 "Claimed" 15 Amended Introduction 16 Suggested intro 17 Recent vandalism 18 announcing NPOV proposal, new policy 19 Banu Qurayza 20 Urchid's latest edits 21 Brandon's recent edit 22 POV sticker added 23 Why the POV tag 24 His name 25 Miracles 26 Michael H. Hart 27 Muhammad and his slaves section 28 Evidence for being first written constitution? 29 Order of the companions 30 Prophetic career -- prophecy 31 Striver on a rampage 32 Birth 33 List of praise names 34 Current edit conflict 35 Recent Images and Formatting Problems 36 CENSORSHIP 37 Islam series 38 Zora's Revert 39 Conflicting versions 39.1 Original Version 39.2 New Version 39.3 Discussion 40 Use of the term "pagan" 41 Copyright 42 Isn't anyone else defending this article? 43 Muhammad as influental 44 Zora's recent edits 45 Picture and WP:Civility 46 A suggestion re picture 47 WP underattack by followers of Sina's Cult of phobia 48 Anon Sunni changing Death of Muhammad section 49 Judaism and Christianity not earlier versions (strictly speaking) 50 Birthdays 51 Battle of Uhud 52 Muhammad in Medina 53 Considering 54 Re-added ON article reference 55 ON linkspamming 56 Value of ON content and quality of reference 57 One of most influential people in history 58 Recent edits by anon and Anonymous Editor 59 Aisha link 60 AE Edits 61 Okay what about something like this? 62 "Final prophet of Islam" 63 Drastic reduction of first para 64 Muslim sources report 65 Aren't there any Movies about Muhammad? 66 Iconoclasts at work? 66.1 General 66.2 POV discussion

• Talk:Muhammad/archive 3:
• Talk:Muhammad/archive 4:
• Talk:Muhammad/archive 5:
• Talk:Muhammad/archive 6;

Islamic beliefs in Islam before Muhammad

Websites: IslamOnline, Muslim Student Association, , , etc.

Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam (1999): "All prophets are said to have taught the identical message that came from God to Muhammad." (p. 306) Adam being the first of the prophets.

Maududi, Towards Understanding Islam, 1986: "Adam, the first man on earth, was also appointed as the Prophet of God. God revealed his religion -- Islam -- to him and told him to convey and communicate it to his descendents." (p. 38)

It's obvious that Muslims believe this. I shouldn't even have to be giving cites -- any more than editors writing about Christianity should have to give cites showing that Christians believe Jesus was crucified.

This is a widespread view. It is held by more than a billion people. It is notable. By NPOV rules, it deserves the same neutral treatment as any other POV. Zora 10:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What one finds are statements like the following:

"Many people have a misconception that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the founder of the religion of Islam. However, Islam is in existence since the first man (Prophet Adam) first set foot on earth. Since then, Almighty God sent several prophets and revelations, the last in this chain being Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an."

(Source: http://www.islamicvoice.com/september.2003/religion.htm)

(1) The sentence "Islam is in existence since the first man first set foot on earth" is incomprehensible to me, because I fail to see what the author means by "Islam" in this context.

What does "Islam" mean? — Let's take a look at a good dictionary:

"1. A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God. 2a. The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world. b. The civilization developed by the Muslim world."

(Source: http://www.bartleby.com/61/77/I0247700.html)

Now, does the author mean:

(a) " monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God is in existence since the first man first set foot on earth." (?)

(b) "The people or nations that practice Islam, the Muslim world is in existence since the first man first set foot on earth." (?)

(c) "The civilization developed by the Muslim world is in existence since the first man first set foot on earth." (?)

Both (a), (b), and (c) are clearly false!

So what else might "Islam" mean here?!

Speaking anachronistically of a "pre-Muhammadian era of Islam" is nothing but an attempt on the part of the Muslim theologians to ideologically re-interpret the entire history of the religions (especially of Judaism and Christianity) in such a way that Islam and nothing but Islam appears to be the only true eternal religion that has always existed even before Muhammad. — In the view of the Islamic theologians all the other religions, in particular Judaism and Christianity, are merely "Islam in disguise", so to speak.

Editorius 13:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I understand this conflict in that it pits belief against historical fact. While it's true that over a billion believe in the existence of Islam prior to Muhammad it seems more logical to say that Muhammad decided to interpret and incorporate previous prophets into the religion he established, Islam. These prior prophets would have mentioned Islam during their times if they themselves believed they were indeed prophets as part of that religion. Netscott 11:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora is right. --Striver 11:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

We do not have to prove for anyone that Islam exist before Muhammad (PBUH). He is the last prophet of God, according to all Muslims and founder of Islam according to some non-Muslims. That is enough to be mentioned in this article. --- Faisal 12:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Its much easier than that. We claim that the message of the previous prohets where Islam, we dont claim they came with the exact same rules that Muhammad (pbuh) presented. That means that Moses was Muslim in his days, and that the Mosaic Law where Muslim laws at that time. Its a question of perspective, pov, nothing else. --Striver 12:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be more neutral to say that Muhammad established Islam but Muslims believe that Islam existed before Muhammad. No? Netscott 12:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It will be not Neutral at all but extremely biased if done so. Tell me, will it be neutral to mention first that what Muslims think about Bush and then mention that he is a president of USA. Not at all. Similarly first tell that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet of Muslims and then give what non-Muslims think about him. --- Faisal 12:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

My earlier neutrality arguement is a bit more logical because it stems from historical (verifiable) fact while Islam's establishment as a religion prior to Muhammad is based upon a belief (of Islam itself). Is that not evident? Netscott 12:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Even the title of this section created by User:Zora is "Islamic beliefs in Islam before Muhammad". Writing from a standpoint of beliefs as facts isn't neutral. Obviously writing about the fact of those beliefs is a different story. Netscott 13:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Netscott, you are correct in saying that it pits belief against historical fact, but let's rephrase that in Misplaced Pages terms: it pits reliable sources which assert one things as fact against reliable sources which state that Muslims believe otherwise. This is exactly analogous to the view of Creationists vis-a-vis Earth.

There can be no useful compromise except at the expense of WP policy: as Zora partially quoted above, well-sourced facts support statements of fact, well-sourced beliefs support the existence of these beliefs as fact. We can say, Muhammad founded Islam, and then, Muslims believe Islam to have existed before Muhammad. Both are true from the standpoint of WP:V, WP:RS.

The mistakes are 1) thinking that we must say "Non-muslims believe Muhammad to have founded Islam" - in fact, reliable sources state as fact that Muhammad founded Islam, so no attribution is necessary beyond citation. 2) proceeding as if this fact and that belief must be given equal weight in this article - in fact, the belief of pre-existing Islam is off-topic here, which is a bio of Muhammad. Muhammad founding Islam is the most salient fact of his life. Islam existing before him is a belief that Muslims have about Islam, it's not an event in Muhammad's life.Timothy Usher 16:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to address what Zora wrote above, "By NPOV rules, it deserves the same neutral treatment as any other POV." Yes, it deserves neutral treatment. Not "Despite obvious historical fact, Muslims inexplicably believe..." or the like. But "neutral treatment" doesn't mean equal weight of belief with sourced fact, nor does it make the pre-existing Islam on-topic.

I quote from WP:NPOV:

"NPOV is one of Misplaced Pages's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one other, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The three policies are also non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus." (Note that WP:RS is included in WP:V).

Interpreting WP:NPOV in isolation from WP:V and WP:RS is exactly what we're being asked to do. These policies are non-negotiable. We may not substitute a sourced belief for a sourced fact. We must find a reliable source which states as fact that Islam may have existed before Muhammad, or drop the argument. It's non-negotiable.Timothy Usher 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This was the cartoon that was printed in the Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, in September 2005; which caused a ton of controversy: File:MosImage.jpg

Compromise?

In her text on Islam in the Encyclopaedia Britannica the eminent scholar Annemarie Schimmel uses the verb "promulgate" in connection with Muhammad ("Islam." Encyclopaedia Britannica, from Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite 2005 DVD. Copyright © 1994-2004 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9105852>)

In order to show that I'm not a primitive "Muslim-basher", I propose the following Islam-friendly formulation, which at least does not distort historical truth:

"Muhammad promulgated the religion of Islam and established the Muslim community."

(or: "Muhammad is the promulgator of the religion of Islam.")

This formulation should really be deemed non-objectionable by the Muslims. Editorius 13:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is it will baffle a large number of readers who aren't quite sure what it means to promulgate.Timothy Usher 16:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

???—It's a word of the English language, isn't it?

In Google the current number of occurrences of "promulgate" is 6.290.000. So it's not a word hardly used by anybody. Editorius 17:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

And for those (I doubt that their number is large) who might not directly grasp its meaning useful things termed "dictionaries" have been invented.

This is really but a pseudo-problem, and absolutely no relevant argument against my formulation above.

What is obviously desperately needed here is the right word, which neither Muslims nor Non-Muslims find objectionable, and in my opinion "promulgate" (or "promulgator") is the right one.

Editorius 16:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Beyond the potential comprehensibility problem, we'd be avoiding clear language - and face it, "promulgate" falls fall short of what Muhammad did here - in order to satisify a religiously-based demand to violate WP source policy. The sources proferred thusfar say Muhammad founded Islam; so can we. See my posts above.Timothy Usher 17:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course one can justifiably state that Muhammad is the (historic) founder of Islam. But for the sake of democratic compromise (which, alas, is usually less than ideal) I'd be prepared to accept a formulation such as mine above, which is a historical truth too but more Muslim-friendly.Editorius 17:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Please check out Joseph Smith, Jr., who is described on Misplaced Pages as an American religious leader who founded the Latter Day Saint movement, a restorationist belief commonly known as Mormonism. Muhammad could also be considered the founder of some sort of a restorationist movement. Despite the fact that Muslims believe that Islam has been in existence since creation, there is no proof of that. In fact, Islam as we know it today, was founded by Muhammad, no matter how many similarities there are between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Muslim claim that the Judeo-Christian scriptures had been corrupted and that that's the reason the Qur'an was revealed, has to my knowledge not been substantiated, so it must be assumed that the similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an are the result of contacts between Muhammad and Jews and Christians. --Benne _(talk) 18:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that calling Islam "some sort of a restorationist movement" would provoke even harsher Muslim criticism. So for the sake of de-escalation I'd be prepared to accept a formulation such as the one I propose above. Editorius 19:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Religio perennis

Those editors who are triumphantly claiming that they are being scientific and neutral, while Muslims are just being religious obscurantists, are mangling the NPOV policy by elevating their own beliefs to the status of "fact". The use of the term "founder" is itself POV, in that it implies that the thing "founded" didn't exist before the foundation. However, many of the major religions claim for themselves a "true for all places and TIMES" status. Jainism claims to go back into human prehistory. Buddhists claim that the truth that heals, the dharma, is inherent in the nature of things, and that the historical Buddha was only the latest of many. There are even non-sectarian and academic upholders of this POV, in the form of teachers and scholars who believe in the Perennial philosophy. From that standpoint, Islam makes just one version of the religio perennis claim.

(If you want to see just how controversial the "founder" claim is, go look the talk pages for List of founders of major religions; in just about every case, some adherent of the religion has shown up to claim that "founder" is not the right word. We've had to rephrase the introduction and entries numerous times, weasle-wording around "founder".)

Curious thing that the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica, all of them rather distinguished, did not have to "weasle-word" around "founder", ain't it?!Editorius 19:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no way that our "scientific" editors can prove the perennial philosophy version (and the Islamic version of it) "wrong". The anti-religious and the religious perspective are both to be given equal credence. Zora 18:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Your insinuation that all those describing Muhammad as a founder are ipso facto anti-religious is plainly false.

(For example, W. Montgomery Watt is not an anti-religious man.) Editorius 20:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of the non-negligible qualitative difference between the empirical science of the history and sociology of religion and theological historiography, which is mythological, and so definitely not on a par with the former?!

Your argumentation somehow reminds me of the rhetorical strategy of the Intelligent Design propagandists: "Darwinism is but one point of view among others (such as ID)" ... "All different points of view are on a par, and so deserve to be mentioned with equal rights for the sake of objectivity and impartiality" (and so forth)

What the ID-iots systematically do (unfortunately with great public success) is pass science off as mere ideology or philosophy.

It really seems to me that sometimes the vociferous demand for "neutrality" is itself anything else but the expression of a neutralistic point of view.

Editorius 19:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that all relevant opinions should be mentioned, but I don't think the Muslim view should come first. I'd suggest something like "Muhammad is considered to be the founder of Islam by non-Muslims, whereas Muslims believe him to be God's final prophet." --Benne _(talk) 20:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That would be like saying, "Non-creationists believe humans to be members of the Primate family."Timothy Usher 20:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The accusation that the scientific historians' statement that Muhammad founded Islam is just a merely subjective judgement of theirs is insubstantial.Editorius 21:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora, have you decided to ignore my posts above?,

You write, "The anti-religious and the religious perspective are both to be given equal credence." That's not the point. The attribution of opinion, religious or otherwise, is not to be given equal weight with the reliably-sourced statement of fact. You must produce a reliable scholarly source which states as a matter of fact, on its own authority, that Islam may have existed before Muhammad, or there is no legitimate argument. That can't stop you from maintaining an illegitimate one, but if you continue to avoid addressing this point of policy, you have no hope of convincing those who are aware of it and sincerely wish to follow it.Timothy Usher 20:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Even to say "Muslims believe Muhammad was God's final prophet" does not answer the question "Who founded Islam?" where the only NPOV answer is "Muhammad". This is Misplaced Pages, not a religious text. The fact that there is even controversy on this is really quite silly. --FairNBalanced 20:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems that many/most/all(?) Muslims tend to say "God founded Islam" or even "Islam has never been founded because it is eternal". But I agree with you insofar as I don't really understand either what the point in denying that Muhammad is the historical founder of Islam is; for we all know that this is the case, don't we?!Editorius 21:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What if the entry on Muhammad began with the following sentence: "Muhammad, the man who did not found Islam." This would be ludicrous, wouldn't it?! Editorius 21:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, for the sake of pragmatic de-escalation, I suggest that the formulation "Muhammad promulgated the religion of Islam and established the Muslim community (both culturally and politically)" be used instead. Editorius 21:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

How WP policy favors secular points of view

Misplaced Pages policy favors the secular point of view, indirectly but quite specifically and undeniably, by requiring us to proffer reliable sources in support of our claims. No reliable source will say either that God founded Islam, created humankind, or anything of the sort; hence, the religious viewpoint is, as a matter of policy, relegated to claims of the sort "X believes", whereas statements of fact from reliable sources are not so limited, and may only be mitigated by one another.

To bring this discussion back to Earth, suppose documents were unearthed appearing to show that Islam was preached centuries before Muhammad, but their authenticity were disputed. Then we'd have something to discuss.Timothy Usher 21:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What ought to be favoured in Misplaced Pages is the scientific, the empirical point of view.

If, one day, the scientific historians of religion should discover evidence permitting the conclusion that Islam as an institutionalized religious system of particular beliefs and practices has already existed before Muhammad, then we would certainly be obliged to correct our empirically well-grounded belief that there wasn't any such thing as a pre-Muhammadian Islam.

Of course, there were lots of pre-Muhammadian religious beliefs and practices such as those of Judaism and Christiany, which could be taken up and be modified by Islam; but to call those "Islamic" would be unjustifiably anachronistic, and simply false Editorius 22:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

And to anachronistically regard other major religious figures such as Moses and Jesus, who existed before Muhammad, as "Islamic prophets" is mythology, not historiology (= the social science of history). Editorius 23:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorious, I beg you to start imposing your POV on all religious articles immediately, so that the angry reaction teaches you that you have completely misunderstood NPOV. You've been relatively unopposed here, because (for some unknown reason) the Muslim editors seem to be thin on the ground of late, and Islam is unpopular enough these days that there are few of us non-Muslims willing to make sure that WP is fair to the Islamic POV.

WP is not a religious encyclopedia; neither is it an anti-religious encyclopedia. NPOV does not allow you to present your POV as a "fact", while denigrating all other POVs as "anachronistic" and "false".

You seem to be bewitched by the word "neutral".

You seem to adhere to some sort of "super-relativistic point-of-view-ism".

Your motto seems to be: "Everybody is right, nobody is wrong—Let everybody have their say, and that's it—Peace!"

Strictly speaking, your point of view that all points of view ought to be treated equally is, put diplomatically, problematic, because if it is true, then your point of view that all points of view ought to be treated equally and my point of view that not all points of views ought to be treated equally ought to be treated equally. This means, you cannot say anything against my point of view that not all points of views ought to treated equally, for then you wouldn't treat my point of view and yours equally. — See?!

I'm afraid that if you are really convinced that scientific methodology and theological mythology are on a par, we share no common ground.

The point is that "my" point of view simply reflects the one of the (empirical) historiology (historical sociology) of religions.

From the scientific point of view, all we factually know is that there lived a man called "Muhammad" in 7th century CE, who founded the religion of Islam (the verb "to found" being fairly non-cryptic!).Editorius 02:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

When Muslims say that that Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc. were prophets of Islam, what they mean is that those folks had hold of religious truth. Since all truth is one, they're Muslims. Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism do the same thing. Truth is one, therefore Jesus and Muhammad can be respected as religious figures. Jesus is regarded by some Hindus as an avatar of Vishnu. Zen Buddhists happily welcome Christians, Jews, and Muslims to their Zen centers. Since Buddhism is atheistic, we'd happily welcome you too. Zora 00:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You say that "Truth is one", but then you speak of a "religious truth", which implies that there is more than one truth: a religious one and a non-religious one.

So could you please define "religious truth"?

I think you're right insofar as I too think that there is only one truth: the truth.

We all know the phrase "to say the truth"; we don't say "to say a truth"!

There is no scientific reason whatsoever to suppose that Muslims who nebulously claim that Islam already existed before Muhammad, implying that it thus couldn't have been founded by him, are actually saying the truth!

Of course, this depends on the meaning of "Islam".

Would you be so kind as to offer a precise definition?!

Editorius 02:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

We're not talking about "our POV", but statements of fact based upon reliable sources. It's policy, Zora. So far you've been ignoring all my posts to repeat the cry of "NPOV", but WP:V and WP:RS is policy, and I'm not letting it go. You must proffer a reliable source stating upon its own authority that Islam may have existed before Muhamamad.Timothy Usher 00:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Timothy, those policies apply to references, not to POVs. One editor -- let's call him Fred -- asserts POV X. We say, "You can't do that, there's a dispute, you have to phrase that in terms of who believes X." (NPOV) So Fred says "All residents of Bend, Oregon, believe X." At this point we say, "Prove it!" (V) Fred then cites his own blog, which makes that assertion. We then say, "No, Fred, that is not a reliable source. Give us a cite from the NY Times or the Portland Oregonian." (RS)

To take the creationism example, we can't state that creationism, or evolution, are true. We can just say things like "the vast majority of scientists believe that the theory of evolution is the best fit to the currently known facts" and then give cites. Ditto with creationism, which we describe neutrally. However, any statements we make about creationism have to be verifiable (backed by references) and those references have to come from reliable sources.

You have just confirmed my suspicion!

I am not saying that you actually are an ID-propagandist, but your argumentational strategy is strikingly similar to the one devised by the Discovery Institute.

Your defense of "neutralism" appears more and more non-neutralistic. (Yes, this is a point of view of mine.)

Your super-relativistic, overall principle seems to be that all objectivistic statements about what is the case need to be transformed into subjectivistic, i.e. psychological, statements about what is believed to be the case. — The problem with that is the question whether, then, statements of the form "x/the x's believe/-s that p is the case" are themselves true or just believed to be true.

For example, is "The Muslims believe that Muhammad did not found Islam" true or just believed to be true?!

It seems to me that you erroneously think that one can never justifiably state that "p" is true unless the knowledge that p is absolute and infallible.

Editorius 02:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorious, the rules here at Misplaced Pages are that we don't privilege one notable POV over another. If there's a dispute, we don't undertake to resolve it. We always step back and turn it into "A believes X and B believes Y". That's the NPOV rule. If you don't want to play by that rule, then you should start your own wiki where you set the rules. Zora 03:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no fundamental dispute among the (scientific) historians as to whether Muhammad founded/established the religion of Islam!

(Neither is there any fundamental dispute among the (scientific) biologists as to whether the Darwinistic theory of evolution correctly describes the facts. Such a "dispute" has merely been tactically stage-managed by the creationists in order to make the non-academic public believe that Darwinism is an unconfirmed theory.)Editorius 13:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora, that is true if and only if both of the notable POV's are based upon reliable sources. You need a reliable source which states on its own reliable authority than Islam may have existed before Muhammad.

Problem is, I know exactly what the source is. It's the Qur'an. Guess what? The Qur'an isn't a reliable source upon what Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. believed. It doesn't cite any of its primary sources. It's not fact-checked. It's not peer-reviewed. Etc., etc. It claims that these facts about beliefs of former prophets were revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel. That doesn't cut it in academia.Timothy Usher 03:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It has been made abundantly clear, and verified with reliable sources, that Muslims believe that there were prophets of Islam before Muhammad. That statement is true, OK? It is also true that non-Muslims describe Muhammad as the founder of Islam. That can also be verified from reliable sources. What's really at issue is privileging one POV over another, and NPOV says we don't do that. As long as there's a dispute, with notable numbers of people holding opinions on each side, we don't take sides. Zora 01:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There are analogies between what the Jewish and Christian gurus of the pre-Muhammadian era preached and what Muhammad preached. But to characterize the former as "prophets of Islam" is simply an anachronistic mythological re-interpretation of history serving the ideological purposes of the Muslim theologians.Editorius 14:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

That Muhammad founded Islam is a matter of sourced fact, not a POV. Read the policy, Zora. Facts and opinions are explicitly distinguished. Sourced facts become opinions only when reliable sources contradict one another.Timothy Usher 01:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't. It's disputed. A billion people dispute it. Your POV has to be treated as an assertion, not a fact. BTW, it all turns on the meaning one attaches to "founded". Which is a matter for argument and nothing that can be demonstrated. Zora 01:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

From "p is disputed (by xx)" it does not logically follow that "p is not a (known) fact". And we really don't need to quibble over the semantics of "found", since its public meaning is sufficiently clear. You seem to be eager to obscure it! If there is a word that might require further clarification, it is "Islam". (Remember, I already asked you to present a precise definition!)Editorius 13:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora, "Muslims" isn't a reliable source. If we can say what "Muslims" believe, it's only because a reliable source says they believe it.

And where do you get "A billion people dispute it"? Is there some poll of which I'm unaware? Not that such a poll would support a finding of fact, as you'd like it too, but it would be interesting to include such information in the Islam article.Timothy Usher 01:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, Timothy, I haven't heard any Muslims deny this. It's an article of faith in every sect. If you want to dispute the "billion," on the grounds that I haven't surveyed every Muslim on the planet, OK. Millions. Every Muslim on record, ever. Sample citations given above. Have any counter-examples? Zora 01:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like original research. In any case, what we're disputing is whether "Muslims" constitutes a reliable source - read the policy and tell me what you think.Timothy Usher 02:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Guys, both are right. It's a matter of definition, non-Muslims define Islam as "Qur'an + Sunnah", Muslims define Islam as "Gods message". That is the root of the dissagreement, you define the word in different ways. A Muslim will agree that "Qur'an + Sunnah" came with Muhammad (pbuh), but will not agree that "Gods message" came with Muhammad. It's that simple, you need to define "Islam". --Striver 08:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought "Islam" was an arabic word meaning 'submission to the will of Allah' or 'surrender (to God)' not "God's message". Either way, the word "Islam" is used in the English language to refer to the religion of Muslims (i.e. the religion practiced based on "Qur'an + Sunnah"). It's a clear matter of the historical record that Muhammad founded the religion "Islam". Esoteric arguments on the eternal nature of the religious doctrine found in the Qur'an are certainly appropriate in a Mosque, but for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, "Muhammad founded Islam" is much more appropriate. --FairNBalanced 09:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Your words are like a fresh shower ... ;-) Editorius 13:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The word "Islam" refers to

(a) the monotheistic religious system of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran

or

(b) the civilization of Muslims collectively which is governed by the Muslim religion

(Source: http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/wn?cmd=wn&word=islam)

Editorius 14:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of what you dismiss as "esoteric arguments" is part of the discussion of religion. They're appropriate in university classrooms as well as mosques, and they're appropriate here.

I agree that it's a problem conveying the subtlety of the Muslim position in an opening para. It's very much a problem when editors insist on using words like "founder", which advance a POV that Muslims don't accept. It's as if you insisted on describing Buddha as a "wandering beggar," in which case Buddhists would argue that the word "beggar" doesn't begin to do justice to the concept of the sannayasin.

I need to sleep on this and perhaps tomorrow (after I've finished a little paying work) I can write a whole bunch of possible first paras. Zora 10:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora, get your sleep! But for tomorrow: isn't the real issue not what "Buddhists" would argue, but what reliable sources (in this case, translators/linguists) do argue?Timothy Usher 10:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Omigosh! Hell just froze over! I agree with something Striver said. Yes, that's a good way to put it. Muslims believe that Islam as submission to God was taught by all prophets, but only Muhammad brought the Qur'an (though most Muslims believe that it was up there in the heavens, waiting to be revealed). With the Qur'an comes Islam as practiced since Muhammad.

I thought the old intro para was just fine, myself. Zora 09:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

While I'm no expert, I'd suggest Deen (Arabic term) is highly relevant to this discussion; Islam doesn't define itself as a "religion" but a way of life. &#0151; JEREMY 10:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Some Muslims use that terminology, others don't. Zora 10:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is all nice, folks - and you're all always welcome to discuss these interesting topics on my talk page - but are there any actual sources involved?Timothy Usher 10:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

"Some Muslims use that terminology, others don't": That's eristical. The five Madhaahib beg to differ: they use the terminology, and, among other things, consider Islam a way of life. While individual Muslims may contradict, I don't know of any relevant group that does. Anyway, since when is there debate in WP that we value RS based stances over POV? The reverted edit gave weight accordingly. Though "esoteric arguments" on Islam's nature certainly are fit when discussing the subject and related edits, we're dealing with a person whose role historic sciences have determined, so referring the state of research is mandatory. Nothing wrong citing contradicting religious implications - giving due weight. The equidistant description of belief and research is encyclopedically unwarranted. --tickle me 11:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There are analogies between what the Jewish and Christian gurus of the pre-Muhammadian era preached and what Muhammad preached. But to characterize the former as "prophets of Islam" or "Islamic prophets" is not only historically misleading but also simply an anachronistic mythological re-interpretation of history serving the ideological purposes of the Muslim theologians.Editorius 14:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If we want to avoid the verb "to found" , which Zora deems evil (for no sensible reason), we could use an alternative, but related one:

"Muhammad instituted the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam."

Editorius 14:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Related? I think it means pretty much the same ... ----Benne _(talk) 14:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It surely does, and it surely has to, since what we must do is express the fact as it is!

Question: Is it a historical truth that Muhammad instituted the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam?

The only answer known to be right is: "Yes!"

Editorius 15:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora has not been able to offer any plausible argument against this whatosever apart from her perverted neutralism. She thinks that the judgements of the Muslim mythologians are epistemologically on a par with the judgements of the scientific historians, and that, hence, both deserve being treated equally; but this is simply not the case, for the latter are objective inasmuch as they are solely grounded on the strictly methodical, empirical study of real history, whereas the former are not, and thus are merely subjective.Editorius 15:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora's incessant insinuation that the affirmation of

"Muhammad instituted the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam."

indicates that those affirming it must be "Muslim-bashers", "anti-Islamic", or generally "anti-religious", is nonsensical.

Editorius 15:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

And it is beyond me how it should be possible to seriously hold that the statement above is "not neutral enough" in the light of the fact that it is true!

A true sentence can impossibly be "neutral" (in your perverted sense), because its truth certainly entails the falsity of its negation.

Editorius 16:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello guys, i've been following this discussion for a while now and noticed that every side you take is a POV one. We are not here to tell people that Muhammad is this or that because that is the truth. Muhamamd is the last prophet is POV and w/ no doubt Muhammad is the founder of Islam is another POV. Editorius goes further and talks about a strictly monotheistic religious system which is total POV. Who defines strict? Anyway, you are facing the same paradox as when facing a border or a territory conflict. Are you telling me that Taiwan is part of China or the opposite. Whatever you'd do is POV. Haven't we learned how to respect NPOV yet? Wasn't the article more stable and w/ no POV stating both sides of the picture? cheers -- Szvest 15:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Wellywell, everything is just a "point of view" ... (blah blah blah ...)

Let everything be a "point of view", for what matters is not whether something is a point of view but whether it is a right or true point of view!

And there can be no rational doubt that the point of view that Muhammad instituted the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam corresponds to the historical facts!

The phrase "strictly monotheistic" describes the Islamic theism perfectly well, because e.g. the Christian theism is not strictly monotheistic insofar as it teaches the Trinity of God, which is vehemently rejected by the Islamic theologians. Editorius 15:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, are you aware of the consequences of your perverted neutralism?!

According to your and Zora's argumentation, we would, for example, have to let the Nazis have their say in the entry on Hitler (Steady, friends, I am not equating Muslims with Nazis!):

—"Nazis believe that Hitler was the greatest leader of all times, and Non-Nazis believe that Hitler was not the greatest leader of all times but one of the greatest criminals in history."

—"Nazis believe that Auschwitz is just a lie, and Non-Nazis believe that Auschwitz is not a lie."

—(and so forth)

Do you get my point?

Editorius 15:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius, please avoid calling other's opinons blah blah while they are being perverted. Otherwise, we'd have no chance to arrive to neither a compromise nor an understanding.

I did not say that Zora and others are perverted, but that the neutralism they endorse is.Editorius 16:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Back to the subject. "Nazis believe that Auschwitz is just a lie, and Non-Nazis believe that Auschwitz is not a lie" is the outmost of a NPOV. You know why? because it tells you what both sides believe. Neither you nor me were there but we are present today here at this NPOV encyclopaedia.

What is this supposed to mean? — That we must not explicitly write down in Wikiepdia that it is an undeniable historical fact that the KZ in Auschwitz existed and that the mass gassings took place? (Just for your information: in Germany you get sentenced for publically denying Auschwitz.) Editorius 16:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I got your point in a way that i understand that you believe Muhammad created Islam. Is that the truth? Are you sure? I am not sure. Cheers -- Szvest 16:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me reply with the words of Ludwig Wittgenstein: "What I know is believed by me."

Editorius 16:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Decision Now

I think it's time for a decision.

Here are my candidates:

(1) "Muhammad established the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam and the Muslim community."

(2) "Muhammed promulgated the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam and established the Muslim community."

("to promulgate" does not necessarily have the connotation "to bring into existence", and so should really be deemed "neutral enough" by the super-neutralists here.)

Editorius 17:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

3) Keep what it is currently or the may revert back to an older improved version. Muhammad (c. 570–632) (Arabic: محمد muḥammad listen, also transliterated as Mohammed and other variants), is believed by Muslims to be God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed, sent to guide all of mankind with the message of Islam. He is referred to as "The Prophet" (Arabic: النبي an-nabiyyu) or "The Messenger" (Arabic: الرسول ar-rasūlu) within the religion. Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the founder of Islam --- Faisal 02:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[Remember what Annemarie Schimmel, who was very Islam-friendly, writes in her entry on Islam in the EB: (ISLAM =) "major world religion belonging to the Semitic family; it was promulgated by the Prophet Muhammad in Arabia in the 7th century AD." (Source: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9105852?query=islam&ct=) Editorius 17:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)]

You aren't the boss of us. You can't DEMAND a decision on your schedule. Zora 17:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought we could meet halfway; but now it seems to me that you want to meet me nowhere. Editorius 02:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this the boss speaking...?!Editorius 17:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC) How much "weasel-wording" do you think needs still to be done before a decision can be made?Editorius 18:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora's right, you could take a survey to gage consensus about such a thing though. Netscott 17:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

???—Even though I find Zora's arguments completely misguided, I have repeatedly demonstrated my willingness to compromise by offering formulations such as (2) above, which Zora et al. have deliberately ignored so far.Editorius 17:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If she or others find even (2) still "not neutral enough", I'm done. Editorius 18:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Editorius, please do not make such threats!!! It would be heartbreaking to see you leave, as I am thoroughly enjoying (and agreeing with) all of your contributions on this page ! --FairNBalanced 06:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The intro is fine how it is. —Aiden 17:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, how perfectly fine it is...! - "the most prominent person in Islam" — Come on, you can't be serious!Editorius 17:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

(By the way, isn' t Allah much more prominent in Islam than Muhammad?! — I find this formulation objectionable. The only formulation I deem "neutral enough" and "ideologically unbiased" is "Muhammad is a man who has something to do with Islam". ;-) Editorius 18:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

I respectfully yet emphatically disagree with both alternatives. WP:NPOV means the neutral presentation of material drawn from verifiable, reliable sources, not the neutral presentation of disputes between editors to this talk page. These policies (and I quote) are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded...by editors' consensus. To compromise is in itself a violation of policy.

No, provided the statement that expresses the compromise is still a historical truth, which is the case in (2). Editorius 23:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad founded Islam is what the cited sources say, and that's what the first sentence of this article should say, until someone produces a reliable source which says otherwise, at which point we can reevaluate it. The second sentence should say what Muslims believe about him, not about Islam's existence generally.Timothy Usher 23:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

???—You agree with "Muhammad founded Islam" but disagree with the synonymous "Muhammad established the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam"?! This I do not understand ... Editorius 23:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In the first place we ought to state what is known to be the case, and then we may certainly add what the Muslims believe to be the case, for the world of the religious myths is not equal to the real world. Editorius 23:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again the introduction is fine. If your aim is to develop consensus then it is not there. I believe that most will disagree with you. Hence you should drop it. --- Faisal 23:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I read your "I believe that most will disagree with you" as "I hope that most will disagree with you"!

If even a formulation such as "Muhammed promulgated the strictly monotheistic religious system called Islam and established the Muslim community." should be not "consensus-apt", then that's got me stumped. Editorius 01:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Why you so badly want to change the current introduction? I can understand Timothy disagreement that he wants to push his "well-sourced" founder claim at the very start. However not able to understand that why you are against it? --- Faisal 01:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Also do not insult others by using words like religion myths. For those who believe, it is not a myth. It is always nice to respect other side views. --- Faisal 23:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Generally, I do respect all moral Muslims as human persons, in the same way that I respect all moral non-Muslims. But in this context I do have a problem with the words "insult" or "offence", which many Muslims love to use inflationarily. They employ them maliciously as a rhetorical maneuver, whenever a non-Muslim says something against Islam that they do not like; and, of course, they do not like it when somebody says anything whatsoever against Islam. — I'm afraid we all have to live willy-nilly with the fact that there is always somebody who says something we do not like at all. For example, according to the Quran I as an atheist am one of "the worst of beasts" (8:55. "For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe." trans. Yusus Ali), which, be honest, is truly very offensive, being close to "subhuman" — and yet I live with that without wishing that all Muslims go to hell. As I said in the beginning, I do respect all moral Muslims as human persons, but you cannot expect me to respect the religious ideology of Islam. Should you consider any disrespect for Islam as a religious ideology to be a personal insult to the Muslims, then—I beg your pardon—that is your problem, not mine, for then it's you who ought to work on his way of judging things. — In my opinion, which is supported by scientific knowledge, the history of Islam as taught by the theologians is mythological, with little or no correspondence to reality. If you consider this opinion of mine an insult, then I am sorry because I do not intend to insult you; but I'm afraid there is nothing else I can do about it.Editorius 01:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for being nice. I must have misunderstood you, I am sorry. Now I know unlike some you not one of those who ridicules others ideology. Obviously we all have right to differ with each other but we should try to express it as polite as possible. --- Faisal 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome! Editorius 01:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius, not to be pushy here, but it's better if you don't break up comments with a point-by-point response. Quoting them makes the discussion easier to follow, as it keeps comments associated with their user/time signatures.

Onto substance - we agree with the order of presentation. Statements of historical fact must come first.

"strictly monotheistic religious system" is unnecessary, as this article is about Muhammad, and Islam will be wikilinked. "Religious sytem" is strange - let's use plain language and stick with "religion".

"Muhammad (c. 571–632) founded the religion of Islam.(CITES)" is, I submit, the most pithy expression of sourced fact that we can muster. Swapping "established" for "founded" is okay, I suppose.

But this is exactly the kind of thing which is rightly debated. Core wikipedia policy is not. What Zora and Faisal are really upset about is that WP:NPOV doesn't override WP:V and WP:RS. Two words: not negotiable.Timothy Usher 00:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Not Negotiable is Negotiable. You defend people against atrocity and forget not to avoid seeing your actions applying it. Be WP:Civil. Cheers -- Szvest 00:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Cheers...but to which atrocities do you refer? Anyhow, not negotiable is nearly a direct quote of core policy, which are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded...by editors' consensus.Timothy Usher 00:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the point. Cheers -- Szvest 00:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Szvestalicious! We meet again. So are you saying that you agree with Usher and Editorius on this issue? That WP:V and WP:RS supersede the inclusion of an unreferenceable POV? --FairNBalanced 06:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Timothy, you may replace "religious system" with the simpler "religion", that would be fine with me; but I don't consider "strictly monotheistic" superfluous, because it actually is informative.Editorius 01:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It is informative, but about Islam, not about Muhammad. Not that Islam can't come up in this article - obviously - but it's a common misperception that the article is about Islam, and one that I think that is influencing some of the discussion: to wit, we shouldn't mention in this article that Muslims believe Islam to have existed before Muhammad, or get involved with previous prophets, other than to say Muslims believe Muhammad to have been the last of God's prophets and provide the appropriate links. Saying Muhammad founded Islam is enough for the capsule summary one expects in an opening paragraph.

As this article is supposed to be a biography, a better place for it would be when discussing the beginnings of his ministry (currently a pathetic section), where we can and should discuss how his teachings differed from the other religions of his time and place.Timothy Usher 01:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Inserting the short phrase "strictly monotheistic" is not a case of prolixity, is it?! And that Islam is strictly monotheistic is an important fact about it. Editorius 01:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well strictly monothesitic is a good information and I will support it. --- Faisal 02:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In Islam the oneness of God is absolute, whereas in Christianity God is three persons in one (Trinity of God). I am an atheist, but in this particular respect I like Islam much more than Christianity. Editorius 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Lest we not forget that not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity, there are those vehemently opposed to it (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses). Also, I am not an atheist, but I agree with you- I believe Islam is more correct in their monotheistic stance than the typical Christian viewpoint. --FairNBalanced 06:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It tells that you are a fair person (not biased) and does not dislike things just for the sake of disliking. --- Faisal 02:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, so do I, but saying that God is one in the Islamic sense falls fall short of saying that Muhammad quoted him accurately. Anyhow, about the article...

Of course it's good information, just not for the first sentence of this article. "George Washington was...the first President of the federal republic known as The United States" doesn't work for the George Washington article. The point here is just to ground the discussion by minimally identifying why he is important, not what is important about the United States (which is be appropriate for the first sentence of that article), although of course the form of government would come up during the bio. Same here.

And generally, it’s completely okay and expected that this article will not explain all the key facts about Islam, only what’s minimally necessary to discuss Muhammad. That’s why we have the Islam article, wikilinked to here.

The monotheism should come up here during the description of his ministry, because the natural question is, well, what was he preaching, and why didn’t Meccans like it? We can’t discuss that without it. But that’s the only reason it should be in this article, and that’s where it should appear.Timothy Usher 02:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIIW, I welcome Editorius' efforts at finding a solution, and I think his proposals are fair. Imho, far too much debate has gone into this "founder" thing, and it's time we settled on a super-neutral compromise ("promulgated" sounds good). In any case, stop the aggressive revert-warring. Solutions are reached precisely by suggestions like Editorius'; if unhappy with his proposals, suggest minor tweaks to the wording, rinse and repeat. Misplaced Pages is not all about citations. It's about citations first and foremost. Once the facts are on the table, it is also very much about consensus and good faith, intelligent compromise. The issue may be too complicated for the intro, and may need at least an explanatory footnote. The problem with "Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the founder of Islam" is that it leaves the reader confused about why Muslims would not consider Muhammad the founder: the statement implies controversy without resolving the issue by actually explaining the controversy. dab (ᛏ) 08:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my proposal again:

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed and other variants), (Turkish: Muhammed) (c. 571–632) promulgated the strictly monotheistic religion of Islam and established the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed."

(Let me stress once more that "to promulgate" does not necessarily have the connotation "to bring into existence", and that such an eminent, pro-Islamic scholar as Annemarie Schimmel uses it, arguably deeming it appropriate.) Editorius 14:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a very commonly used word. People shouldn't have to pull out a dictionary to read the article. Just say established. —Aiden 14:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid an author cannot first carry out a survey on how many people directly understand his words before using them in his text. What matters is that the word in question is a regular lexical item and adequately expresses the intended meaning. — As far as I'm concerned, I could certainly live very well with "establish". But the point is that this verb does have the connotation "to bring into existence" (see: http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/F0278600.html), which I've been trying to defuse for the sake of compromise. Editorius 17:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius, you are a nice guy, but your vocabulary is honestly too advanced. I think you assume the general public is much smarter than they really are (with regard to use of the word "promulgate"). In fact, you could very well be the smartest one here. Watching you apply your logic is like watching someone shoot fish in a barrel with a shotgun. Ironically, the only problem is that these "fish" don't even realize that they've been shot (metaphorically speaking)... I think "established" is a better word than promulgate, more common in usage, and entirely accurate. That's why I'm leaning toward your suggestion:

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed and other variants), (Turkish: Muhammed) (c. 571–632) established the strictly monotheistic religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed." Despite not using "promulgate" in this version, you still have the sentence "Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to who the Qur'an was revealed" which should be more than a sufficient compromise.

You and the UsherDude have both already pointed out that this is article should not be made into a hagiography (in the pejorative sense of the word). --F.N.B. 17:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad (PBUH) has not "establish" anything. Hence above are not acceptable. I still not able to get what is the problem with the current intro and why you want to change it. --- Faisal 18:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Faisal, as I've already said many times, that Muhammad founded/established/instituted the religion called Islam is and remains a scientifically unassailable fact. Another scientifically unassailable fact is that Muhammad did not found monotheism. As we all know, there are monotheisms originating from pre-Muhammadian times. But it needs to be stressed over and over again that it is illegitimate to anachronistically label those "Islamic"! Neither is it legitimate in any way to speak of the first members of the species homo sapiens ("from Adam onwards ...") as "the first Muslims"!Editorius 20:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The following is doubtless the best and most accurate formulation:

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed and other variants), (Turkish: Muhammed) (c. 571–632) established the strictly monotheistic religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed."

This formulation is objectively impeccable. — I've been offering the formulation containing the "weasel word" "promulgate" only for the sake of compromise. Editorius 20:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius 20:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Person or not?

Allah is NOT a Person (according to Muslims). The intro is fine. --- Faisal 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The 99 (descriptive) Names of God could not collectively apply to a nonperson.

"the view that all limited or finite things are dependent in some way on one supreme or ultimate reality of which one may also speak in personal terms."

For an atheist it doesn't make any (literal or analogical) sense to do so. Editorius 20:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also see e.g. in The Columbia Encyclopedia: "in theology and philosophy, the belief in a personal God" (http://www.bartleby.com/65/th/theism.html)

Islam is a theistic religion, just like Judaism and Christianity. Editorius 20:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

What name make him a person? According to Muslims believes and Quran. Allah does not need to sleep. He is not father of anyone and no one is his child or family member. He is not married and do not need to be married. He does not need to have food (or any fuel). No one has created him. No one is like him or has abilites like him. He has created the universe and can distroy it whenever he wants.... Hence Allah is not a person. Start another section/debate and every Muslim member will agree that it is wrong to call Allah as a person. --- Faisal 20:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Your "hence" is misplaced, because from what you've mentioned it merely follows that Allah is not a human person, but not that he is not a person at all. Editorius 21:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Practically all of the 99 names characterize God as a personal being. For example, the noun "creator" (Nr. 12) implies that what is called a creator is somebody who is capable of purposive action and complex thought. I fail to see how a nonperson could intentionally create and design a complex universe such as ours. An atheist doesn't say that there is somebody who is its creator but that there is something which is the (impersonal) cause of its existence. — Believe it or not, the god of the Muslims has personality. :-) Editorius 21:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It is wrong to put Allah in any group. Person is a group with many members. Allah is very unique. He is most powerful, most generous, most beautiful and does not have requirements similar to living being or persons (like he does not get tired, sleepy, hungry, thristy, bore etc). No one can match his abilities or even come near to the abilities he has. So I could never think when I read Person in the intro. that someone could possibly think Allah as a Person. The above two choices of yours are not better than current intro because even the Muslim community was establish before Muhammad (PBUH). He was the just the final prophet that completed the religion Islam started by Adam (PBUH) and continue by other prophets (Jesus (PBUH), Moses (PBUH) ...). See Prophets_of_Islam --- Faisal 21:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is mythological yarn spun by shrewd theologians for the sole ideological purpose of "islamizing" the entire history of mankind, from its dawn (Adam) onwards:

"When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":"

"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of ((Allah)) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears."

(trans. Yusuf Ali)

That has absolutely nothing to do with scientific historiography. To speak of a "pre-Muhammadian Muslim community" is historical nonsense.— If the stories by the mythologians and the ones by the historians should be deemed equally credible and equally substantiated by the Misplaced Pages admins, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with Misplaced Pages. Editorius 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

you seem to be confused by translation. We've been through this before, and I am tired of repeating points that can be looked up in the archives for free. When commenting on the "founder of Islam" issue, it is important to understand the ambiguity of half-translated half-loaned terminology. "Muslim community" is a half-Arabic half-English expression open to misinterpretation. "Muslim" is Arabic for "faithful", so the full English translation would read "community of the faithful", or "community of the righteous ". It is patently not "historical nonsense" to talk about faith or even monotheism predating Muhammad. There were faithful monotheists a millennium before Muhammad was born. The entire problem is that the Arabic term for "faith" has become undistinguishable from "Mohammedan" in English, and practically synonymous in Arabic. I realize that in English, the loanword "Islam" means "Mohammedan", and not "faithful" in general (a faithful Christian is not called muslim in English any more than fromm or pieux). Replacing "Mohammedan" with "Muslim" was originally intended as a PC courtesy because people objected to the term "Mohammedan". It is now an encyclopedia's job to unravel the terminological mess this has landed us in. This can be done in a neutral manner and straightforwardly. dab (ᛏ) 08:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is all true. But this is an English-language encyclopedia; we don't aim to redefine terms, even those which have been unjustly redefined - and Muhammadan(ism) would be more than fine with me. But it's been replaced by Islam/Muslim. The question is, do we take what Islam/Muslim means in English at face value, or include the nuances of the Arabic derivation? I think the answer, as framed, is clear. We're not here, on this article, to solve these problems - which come to think of it is a kind of original research, albeit valid enough in that.

Shall we cite dictionaries along with Watt and Encyclopedia Britannica? English language dictionaries define "Islam" and "Muslim" such that your objections, based on the Arabic language, are valid but off-topic.

Verifiable, reliable sources for English-language meanings are English-language dictionaries. While we can certainly discuss the foreign-language origins and meanings of borrowed terms, we use English meanings in our prose.Timothy Usher 09:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

no, we are not here to solve these problems. We are here to explain them. Understand that the fact that you are able to cite sources that use these terms without bothering to explain the implications does not force us to do the same. In fact, seeing that people keep objecting this way or that to a certain point dictates that we add a decent explanation, in a footnote or wherever, on the points I summarize above. I have no opinion on the matter, man. All I'm saying is "it's complicated". You say "I agree, but here's a dictionary that doesn't bother about that". I say, well, but the EB and friends have the advantage (or disadvantage) that people have no opportunity to edit-war about their sloppy terminology. Just explain things along the lines I point out above and we'll have peace. Otherwise the article will never be stable. dab (ᛏ) 10:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"Understand that the fact that you are able to cite sources that use these terms without bothering to explain the implications does not force us to do the same."

But the inability to cite other reliable sources which contradict those (dictionaries) does. If we can find an English language dictionary which defines the English term "Islam" as faith or generic submission to God, then you have a point. Otherwise, it's actually not complicated. All we have here is a supremely off-topic (remember, this is about Muhammad, not Islam) introduction of semantic disputes kept alive only by the comments of editors to this talk page.Timothy Usher 10:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

dab, it is indeed not historical nonsense to talk about faith or even monotheism predating Muhammad. I wrote:

— Of course, there were lots of pre-Muhammadian religious beliefs and practices such as those of Judaism and Christiany, which could be taken up and be modified by Islam; but to call those "Islamic" would be unjustifiably anachronistic, and simply false Editorius 22:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

— There are analogies between what the Jewish and Christian gurus of the pre-Muhammadian era preached and what Muhammad preached. But to characterize the former as "prophets of Islam" is simply an anachronistic mythological re-interpretation of history serving the ideological purposes of the Muslim theologians.Editorius 14:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

But it is indeed historical nonsense to talk about Islamic faith or even Islamic monotheism predating Muhammad. Furthermore, concerning "Muslim" you seem to commit an etymological fallacy:

"What I am referring to as the etymological fallacy is the assumption that the original form or meaning of a word is, necessarily and by virtue of that very fact, its correct form or meaning. This assumption is widely held. How often do we meet the argument that because such and such a word comes from Greek, Latin, Arabic, or whatever language it might be in the particular instance, the correct meaning of the word must be what it was in the original language of origin! The argument is fallacious, because the tacit assumption of an originally true or appropriate correspondence between form and meaning, upon which the argument rests, cannot be substantiated."

What matters here is the contemporary common meaning of "Muslim", and that is crystal-clear: a Muslim = an adherent of Islam (Source: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/muslim)

We definitely cannot use "Muslim" as very broadly meaning "somebody who believes in God (surrenders to God)", because then all (mono-)theistic believers worldwide would be Muslims, including the Jews and the Christians. Counting the latter among the Muslim community would not only be very misleading, extremely unfair to the Jews and Christians in particular, but also historically false. In the English language "Muslim" factually does not mean "adherent of a (mono-)theistic religion" but "adherent of the (mono-)theistic religion called Islam".

Of course we can add etymological information about what the original Arabic meanings of "Muslim" and "Islam" are. But, as already said, the original Arabic meanings are not the same as the contemporary English meanings, which are the only relevant ones for English readers.

(By the way, even I consider "Muhammadan"/"Mohammedan" and "Muhammadanism"/"Mohammedanism" pejorative and hence inacceptable.) Editorius 13:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

on your final point, I honestly don't see why "Mohammedan" should be any more pejorative than "Lutheran". I suspect "Mohammedan" was ousted out of circulation by a flawed analogy to "Christian" (an implied comparison of Muhammad with Christ), but the term "Lutheran" makes perfectly clear that a religion may be named after its honoured instigator rather than its deity. Luther is the founder of the Lutheran creed, not of Christianity. Yet there is no problem with saying Luther founded Lutheranism. So why should there be a problem with saying that Muhammad founded Mohammedanism? And, if "Islam" in English really synonymously replaces "Mohammedanism", that would read "Muhammad is the founder of Islam". Since that seems to offend many Muslim readers because it reads like "Muhammad founded piety", I see nothing wrong with clarifying that "Muhammad founded the world religion known as Islam" or something. My point is that this is about terminology, not about factual disagreement, so why don't people just settle on terminology acceptable to everybody? My objection stands that the "generally considered by non-Muslims" implies a controversy without making it explicit. If that wording is to remain, it needs at the very least an explanatory footnote. dab (ᛏ) 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That wording, "generally considered by non-Muslims", resulted from an earlier compromise based on the misconstrual of WP policy as discussed, and certainly shouldn't remain - the "non-Muslims" in question are important because they're mainstream reliable sources, not because they represent a "non-Muslim POV".

Incidentally, were we to adopt the original Arabic derivation as our definition of Islam/Muslim, we would no longer be able to call anything or anyone Islamic/Muslim without serious qualification, as it's not up to us to decide what constitutes "submitting ".Timothy Usher 20:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Your "world religion" tweak is fine with me (as it was when you'd first posted it several months ago).Timothy Usher 20:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Archive in the Works?

Not to change the subject, but is there any chance that at least the first half/part of this talk page could be archived? The page length seems to be getting a little outta hand...— Preceding unsigned comment added by FairNBalanced (talk • contribs)

Thank you IrishPunk Tom --F.N.B. 17:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we vote yet?

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed and other variants), (Turkish: Muhammed) (c. 571–632) established the strictly monotheistic religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed."

Per Editorius, this absolutely is the most impeccable version. I'm not familiar with the "world religion" tweak that Usher spoke of, but if anyone would like to put it up here for a look, that would be great. "Established" is more accurate than promulgate and a more well known word. The average reader will get confused when they see "promulgated"- a long complex word that starts with a "p". Let's not forget that "pedophile" and "pederast" are also unusual words that start with a "p". In light of the stigma that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has been trying to overcome for centuries, I don't think "promulgate" is a word we should stick with. --FrankNBeans 04:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"long and complex word"? — "promulgated" = 11 words, "established" = 11 words.

And I hope you don't consider the "p" thing a serious argument.Editorius 11:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this is perfectly fair. Except, why all the brackets (one set is enough) (instead of lining up bracket after bracket), and why the Turkish form of the name? say "also Mohammed and other variants" and add a footnote listing all variants known to man. Although I find your association of "promulgate" with "pederast" a bit surreal, I agree that "promulgate" is not a word we should stick to without need. dab (ᛏ) 08:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we get rid of "strictly monotheistic"? Of course it's true, but as discussed above, it's off-topic for the first sentence of this article.Timothy Usher 08:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "strictly monotheistic" is absolutely non-off-topic, because it conveys very important information about Islam:

"No religion has interpreted monotheism in a more consequential and literal way than Islam. According to Islāmic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. There is no issue upon which this religion is so intransigent as the one of monotheism."

So we really shouldn't omit it.Editorius 12:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal, excluding "strictly monotheistic". Pecher 09:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Strictly is relative and that would mean POV. Without it the intro is more neutral. Cheers -- Szvest 09:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, "strictly" is not relative, and "strcictly monotheistic" describes the Islamic religion perfectly well.Editorius 12:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

But if the tiny adverb "strictly" should bother most of you somehow, then let's omit it, for I don't want to be too pedantic.Editorius 13:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget there are those that say voting is evil. Are we sure voting is needed? Judging by the "(help·info)" bit of the first line, to use this text verbatim would likely be a copyright violation. That said this line is the most neutral out of the various lines proposed as it does not rely upon faith in establishing historical fact. Netscott 09:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I try to compare this intro with the one of Jesus and find no logic being applied at all. -- Szvest 09:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that argumentation device used elsewhere but in reality that argument could just as easily be saying that Jesus needs editing. Netscott 09:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if that needs a revision. The intro of Jesus is as neutral as it should be based on what neutrality is. -- Szvest 09:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the proposed intro text can possibly be a copyvio. Pecher 09:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Me neither. -- Szvest 09:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Is that first line not a word for word copy from another encyclopedia? On another note the comparison of pederast and pedophile to promulgate in relation to Muhammad does not strike me as being done in good faith and I would council User:FairNBalanced to remain professional (and preferrably neutral) in discussions about the subject of this article. Netscott 09:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean that the intro above is taken from Britannica? Copyrights apply than. Thanks for mentioning it Scott. People are free to say whatever they like in the discussion pages (in goog or bad faith and excluding personal attacks) so that is not a problem. -- Szvest 09:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

guys, I seriously doubt that sentences like "Muhammad established Islam" or "Columbus sailed to America" are at all copyrightable. This discussion is involved enough. Copyvio is lazy ripping off of another's work. Nobody will be able to say that we didn't put work of our own into this damned intro. Let's just find a consensus without bothering what EB have as their first paragraph. dab (ᛏ) 10:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on Muhammad begins exactly as follows:

"Muhammad: born c. 570, Mecca, Arabia died June 8, 632, Medina

in full Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim, founder of the religion of Islām and of the Muslim community."

There is certainly no copyright on the phrases "the religion of Islam" and "the Muslim community".Editorius 12:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Back to the subject. I believe strictly is POV and believe that established or promulgated is not NPOV. Who says that he did and who says he didn't do that? -- Szvest 12:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

thus, how about

Muhammad (محمد; also Mohammed and other variants; c. 571–632) established the monotheistic religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed.

dab (ᛏ) 12:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the need for "monotheistic" qualification here; attributes of Islam are best described in the Islam article. Otherwise, sounds good. Pecher 12:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Dieter, why not add more explanation for the sake of neutrality and clarity?

Muhammad (محمد; also Mohammed and other variants; c. 571–632) is the central figure of monotheistic religion of Islam. Non-Muslims believe he established Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed and that he completed the message of God.

I see Dieter that both suggestions are equal and in plain English they seem neutral. Mine is giving nobody the right to tell that one view is correct. We can remove monotheistic term as per Pecher. Cheers -- Szvest 12:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This latest version by Szvest isn't neutral. What is the verifiable history regarding Muhammad and Islam? Netscott 12:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It may be true Scott and that's what i tried to explain through that. Verifiability concern both sides of the story. So what history and academic books say about it? Academic sources differ and the only thing we can do is present both views and not say that he established when other sources say no. -- Szvest 12:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Szvest but equating religious belief with historical fact isn't neutral. Netscott 12:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In that i am w/ you Scott and i say the same. The point is that we discard Muslim historians from the game. Is that because they had a religious background? Hadn't non-Muslim historians who wrote about Islam religious background as well? -- Szvest 12:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What about saying something to the effect that Muhammad established Islam whose tenets hold that it is a religion that has always existed. Netscott 12:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Scott, when we say X established Y, we mean that he did it whereas sources are conflicting. Z believes X established Y means that nothing is 100% factual, which is the case. It is like saying Gates inveted the first OS based on windows called "Windows" wich is debatable as well. Don't you see guys that we can be more neutral than that but there's something on the way? -- Szvest 13:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we vote yet? II

did you at all listen? what is the meaning of "Non-Muslims believe he established Islam and the Muslim community"? Is this a religious belief parallel to "Muslims believe he was God's final prophet"? On what grounds is it disputed that he founded the religion / the ummah? Does anyone see the two statements "established Islam" and "was God's final prophet" as mutually exclusive? why? As I understand the matter, M established Islam. Muslims believe that he did so by virtue of being God's prophet, non-Muslims believe that he just did it. Both views are compatible with the simple fact that M established (the religion of, yadda yadda) Islam. What is your problem? Otoh, if the whole point of Islam is that it is extremely monotheistic (no trinity, no saints, no idols/hagiography), why should we not describe "Islam" as "monotheistic religion"? It's not like that takes away too much space or like it is biased in any way. We can split hairs over this all week. Or we can just agree that Mohammed established the bleeding monotheistic world religion known as Islam, prophet or not, and unprotect. dab (ᛏ) 12:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's simplistic to reduce Islam to just monotheism; in fact, Islam is more correctly described as deen, a complete way of life for each and every individual. The point is that the intro to the article on Muhammad is not the place to describe the intricacies of Islam. I'm not disputing that Islam is monotheistic; I'm just pointing out that singling one of the attributes of Islam among others is unjustified. Pecher 12:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I reject the formulation "Non-Muslims believe he established Islam and the Muslim community", because it suggests (and I suspect it is cunningly intended to suggest this) that it expresses a merely subjective, i.e. unjustified judgement on the part of the non-Muslims, which might easily be false. But this is not the case, for what we have here is an empirically confirmed, and hence well-founded historical judgement.Editorius 13:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I second this, unless we explain why we are suggesting that the point is subjective. As for deen vs. tawhid, well, we can also link to deen if you like. Muhammad is so intricately linked with Islam that it is certainly permissible to link to one or two basic tenets of Islam (hence, of Muhammad's) from the intro. We could also say "the monotheistic religion of Islam", no problem. dab (ᛏ) 13:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Editorius without hedge:

"Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed whilst non-Muslims consider him to be the founder of Islam"

Matching belief with consideration clearly insinuates unwarranted encyclopedical equidistance, while the precedence of the religious view even gives undue weight and indicates preference. Also, the term consideration detracts the scientific factuality. In my understanding WP prefers WP:RS over belief. Is that a minority view? --tickle me 13:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

would somebody mind answering my question why this consideration is reserved to non-Muslims? It seems perfectly obvious that Muslims consider Muhammad the founder of stuff as well as believing that he is God's prophet. Where is the (implied) contradiction here, I would like to know (and I am asking for about the fourth time now with no reply)? dab (ᛏ) 13:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Are the modern textbooks of chemistry an expression of ideological bias just because the point of view of the alchemists is left out...?! — I really do not think so! Editorius 14:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we vote yet? III

Editorius, Netscott- For the record, I love you guys and your work is great here. I'm renominating this version, per Editorius, Usher, Pecher, the "Dabinator" et al (including my homie Szvest):

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed and other variants), (Turkish: Muhammed) (c. 571–632) established the religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed and that he completed the message of God."

Is this a reasonable compromise? --FrankNBeans 17:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There's only one problem here and that is everyone on this list you've created appears to have never self-identified as Muslim (I'm not saying whether anyone on the list is Muslim or not). Writing articles on Misplaced Pages is not a one sided affair. I'm not going to be agreeing with any particular version until such time as a reasonable number of points of view (a general consensus) is inclined to sign off on it. That said I am sooner inclined to support a version of the introduction like this that does correspond to verifiable and reliable sources and does not depend upon facts stemming from a religious belief. Netscott 17:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me. A few things:

• Why include the Turkish name? It's an English encyclopaedia, so I think it makes more sense to include the variants that are current in English. Else we might as well include a bunch of other languages.
• Aren't he was God's final prophet and he completed the message of God tautological statements? I don't even think the second statement is true: it is believed that he merely conveyed God's message.

By the way, I agree that statements about the Islam (such as calling it a strictly monotheistic religion) should not be included in the introduction of this article. That's what the Islam article is for. ----Benne _(talk) 17:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Netscott.. that's why I used "et al". Plus Benne has a point. We could remove the word "Turkish:" and just include all of the variants, including Muhammed.

Netscott, I'm just trying to fore-go all of the side-discussions and push forward the discussion of a working sentence we can all agree on- regardless of who's on which "side" and who self-identifies as what. In order to follow WP:RS and WP:V it really doesn't matter who self identifies as Muslim or not.

Per Benne?:

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed, Muhammed and other variants), (c. 571–632) established the religion of Islam and the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed."--FrankNBeans 17:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there's enough contention regarding this change that it may require a proper request for comment to settle this issue. Netscott 17:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

FrankNBeans' last version is ok by me, the stance on "...completing the message of God" wouldn't hold water. RFC: Zora asked daB for help as her RfC didn't meet reaction, so that won't help much. Besides, the notion that real or self-identified Muslims must have a say on Muslim topics turns WP upside down: It's about argument and debate eventually, and I'm not astounded that we're left alone. Hic Rhodos: this talk page is a good enough RfC, and lacking participation speaks for itself. Then again: lacking participation?? Not at all: more than half a dozen disputants and a vigorous debate. We're in no hurry, but the proceedings here are a valid basis for admins to act upon. --tickle me 18:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

We are not in a hurry. Suppose we reach a consensus today and imagine editors comming tomorrow to start over again! I mean articles of this kind need more time and patience to deal w/ and i suggest that we get patient too to avoid eventual future disputes. I believe this article's reached its maturity and therefore time is needed to fix the small differences so to deal only against vandalism later and no more edit warring. I agree w/ Tickle that there's no need or obligation for us in this debate to go for an RFC as we are almost reaching a concensus anyaway. Just cool down and wait for another 24 hours or so and see. By the way, i am in agreement w/ Frank's version except the he established thingie there. Cheers -- Szvest 18:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The aforementioned version is balanced and acceptable. —Aiden 19:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Still I'm not convinced that the alleged rareness of "promulgate" is a decisive reason against using it, for I think that the prospect of finally reaching an agreement is more important. — How about using "propagate" instead:

"Muhammad (محمد (help·info) also Mohammed, Muhammed and other variants), (c. 571–632) propagated the religion of Islam and established the Muslim community (ummah). Muslims believe that he was God's final prophet, to whom the Qur'an was revealed."

Editorius 20:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, propogate doesn't cut it.... that's still leaves out the question of who historically established the religion called Islam. Netscott 20:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The most accurate verbs are and remain "found" or "establish". They hit the nail right on the head, so to speak. And I don't think that any Misplaced Pages policy forbids one to use accurate expressions. Editorius 21:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Primordial Islam?

Here comes the myth:

"Muhammad did not found Islam. Islam was created by Allah at the beginning of time, and in fact Muslims regard Adam as the first Muslim."

(Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/world_religions/islam_begin.shtml)

When Muslims say so, they are equivocating on "Islam", deliberately mixing up its etymological and its present lexical meaning, the latter of which happens to be the only active one in the English language (and of course in many other ones such as German as well). But even if one employs "Islam" in the deactivated etymological sense, what matters most is the question whether there is any empirical historical evidence proving that, from the dawn of mankind onwards, all (or most) tribes and all (or most) people(s) have always "submitted" to the one unique god as conceptualized by Muhammad and the Muslim theologians:

"For exclusive monotheism only one god exists; other gods either simply do not exist at all, or, at most, they are false gods or demons; i.e., beings that are acknowledged to exist but that cannot be compared in power or any other way with the one and only true God. This position is in the main that of Judaism, Christianity, and Islām. Exclusive monotheism is not to be found in either primitive or archaic religions, according to present knowledge."

That is to say, no evidence is available that proves that Islam-like monotheism is innate in the sense of having been primordially implanted in the human mind by Allah himself. — Anyway, even if there were evidence confirming the hypothesis of an exclusive (or strict) primoridal monotheism, that would certainly by no means imply that there is a god which implanted such a kind of religious belief in the human mind! Therefore, the story of the beginning of "Islam" told by the Muslims must be considered a mere myth—period. Editorius 13:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

" In any event, it is a very long jump from the premise that primitive tribes have high gods to the conclusion that the earliest men were monotheists."

There are no empirical indications showing that the first members of homo sapiens actually were Muslim-like monotheists. Editorius 16:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"So set thy face to the religion, a man of pure faith -- God's original upon which He originated mankind. There is no changing God's creation. That is the right religion; but most men know it not --" (trans. Arberry)

This is devotional writing, not scientific historiography. Editorius 16:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius, we are with you, there is no need to preach to the choir. Let's focus on the subtleties that are disputed. I agree that the argument you cite is mixing up the etymological and present lexical meaning of "Islam". However, I do not think that this is in all instances done deliberately. Not everybody is a linguist. I fully agree that on en-wiki, the present English lexical meaning is what counts, but I insist that we should add a footnote explaining precisely the issue of shifting semantic fields to avoid further misunderstandings. I am not asking you to move in your conviction. I am asking you just to allow for the instruction of hot-headed readers who may not be as enlightened about the murky pitfalls of terminology as you are. dab (ᛏ) 18:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Editorius, kudos for the Lyons cite. That's a great general work as they go.Timothy Usher 21:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The etymological fallacy Lyons describes does play a crucial role here. Of course, if "Muhammad founded Islam" is read as "Muhammad brought forth the submission to one god", this is a misinterpretation, since he is not the deviser of monotheism in general. Editorius 23:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Burial

Quick question. I am curious as to if the burial site of Muhammad still exists. If so, where, and if not, what became of it? Google didn't immediately have any useful information that I saw. This would probably be a great addition to the death section if indeed the information exists. Vonspringer 02:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I’ve moved your comment from the top of the page - new posts should be placed at the bottom. Muhammad is buried in the Mosque of the Prophet in Madina.Timothy Usher 04:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Timothy Usher is apparently some sort of islamic wiki jihadist, as he's removing anything he finds 'upsetting' and potentionally negative about islam.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.103.66.134 (talk • contribs) - unsigned changes saying that I made an unsigned change made by Timothy Usher— Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.103.66.134 (talk • contribs) Timothy Usher 04:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a place where me and my brothers in struggle get together to discuss and plan our daily activities. It's called The Muslim Guild. Post your allegation there, if you've the nerve.Timothy Usher 04:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Old requests for peer review
• Delisted good articles