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Revision as of 17:30, 16 June 2006

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Archive 1 of previous discussion

MEDIATION UPDATE: I have listed three suggested compromises at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-21 John Bowlby#Compromise offers; one on the inclusion of attachment theory in this article, one on the external links and one on Wikiquette. Please read through them and indicate if you support or oppose them (and if opposing, why).

Mediation

Hi all, I am here to try and be an impartial third party to help resolve this dispute. From what I see, the disagreement exists regarding the content in the biography and the sources used. In the space below, could each side present their own opinion on what they believe is necessary for the article. Please remember to refrain from personal attacks. Hopefully we can reach a compromise! Brisvegas 07:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

A few points to consider:

• A user's membership of any group should be irrelevant, so don't ask one another about this. At Misplaced Pages we strive to have a neutral point of view in our articles. Obviously, precedence is given to theories that have wider acceptance over fringe theories, which may be covered in less depth or not at all.
• Biographical articles should be just that - articles focussing on the lives of people and their contribution to society. Their actual contribution should be covered in depth at its own article.
• Regarding external links, here are the ones to avoid:

1. Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, unless it is the official site of the article's subject or it is a notable proponent of a point of view in an article with multiple points of view. (See WP:RS for further information on this guideline.)
2. In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.
3. Links that are added to promote a site. See External link spamming.
4. Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.
5. Sites with objectionable amounts of advertising
6. Sites that require payment to view the relevant content
7. Sites that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content unless (1) it is the official site of the subject of the article (2) the article is about those media, or (3) the site is being cited as a reference.
8. Foreign-language sites, unless it is the official site of the subject of the article or it contains visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables. (See WP:MOS-L for further information on this guideline.)
9. Bookstores. Use the "ISBN" linking format which gives readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources.
10. A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article). If it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article.
11. Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.

(Source: Misplaced Pages:External links)

With this in mind, let's begin!

A couple of questions/comments before beginning:

Has the mediator seen the (unsigned) comments added by DPeterson to the mediation request? Some are slanderous/libelous (false and defamatory).

Is there anyway to archive the talk page before this section? I get Wiki messages that the page is longer than is recommended, and scrolling through it is a real pain.

Could the Bowlby page be moved to the talk page until mediation is over? It was suggested that it is a "less drastic" than engaging in an edit war. I tried clicking "move", but was informed that I was "too new" a user to be allowed to do that.

Thanks for jumping in. I hope not to give you cause to regret doing so! Sarner 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I do hope you can resolve this so that useful and related information can be left on the page. I wonder what Brisvegas thinks about and has to say about the comments Sarner continues to make. They seem off point to me. Removing the Bowlby page is just another "ploy" to avoid addressing the issue. The original page, before Sarner's reverts, might be a place to start. I wish the Mediator would inform Sarner to stay on point and avoid the negative personal comments he's previously made (see above). Thank you for your assistance, I remain hopeful. DPeterson

Responses for Mediator

From my view, the article I originally edited was mere advertising. There was a small biographical section, followed by a much longer section touting therapies for children "based" on attachment theory.

There were factual objections to the claims for these therapies, and offered material to counter those claims for balance. Those were reverted.

I realized then that the entire therapy section was inappropriate for a biographical article. So I came on the talk page with a suggestion as a compromise that the therapy section be eliminated altogether. In conjunction with that, certainly links and bibliographic references would also be eliminated as irrelevant. The compromise fell flat with the other side.

So I instead improved the section in question by adopting NPOV as much as I could and adjusting the bibliography, Wiki references, and external links. That drew the battle lines with the other side, with the article flipping between two irreconcilable worldviews, though the other side has the upper hand with the three-revert rule and their version is the one that is up most of the time. (I was reverted within two minutes.)

In a remarkable development, inter alia, the other side merged our two competing versions, which made a complete mish-mash! I see that today one of those on the other side is attempting to remove my material from their version and return to their original.

Along the way, an apparent third-party editor contributed more biographical material. Prose-wise, it wasn't very good, and it had some factual errors, but I incorporated it into my version and have been improving it slightly with each of my reverts. A couple of other editors have also made improvements that I have preserved in my version. Until recently, those improvements have been ignored by the other side and reverted along with the disputed section.

Discussion has failed. I have tried and tried to discuss on the talk page my view and objections, but have gotten nowhere. The vitriol from the other side has steadily risen, except when they have fallen totally silent, usually in response to a demand that they present evidence for their statements.

I do not see any way to reconcile the two versions. I think my present version would achieve more consensus, has better prose and more accurate information, and most importantly is most congruent with Wiki policy (particularly NPOV), than the present version by the other side. I am hoping the mediator (or any other unaligned third party) can see some way that I don't.

Sarner 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Sarner continues to delete accurate and useful information that a consensus of contributors seem to want to see on this page. Sarner does not seem to be an expert in this area. As previously described, he is a "zealot" with a specific agenda to push. I think his postion as Administrative Director of ACT, among other things makes that clear. Material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice is interesting and relevant to readers.

Rudeness abounds. The mediator asks for each side to separately state their case, and I am not allowed to state mine without comments being inserted. C'mon, guys, if you want to make this point: (a) sign it; (b) put it in your own section. Why don't you instead spend your time responding to the mediator's request, and let's get on with it. Sarner 22:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Again off point by being critical of irrelevant points. Why don't you just stay on topic and address the question raised by the mediator, why you think material on the practial applications of Bowlby's attachment theory does not belong here. DPeterson

We can reconcile the two versions by allowing readers to see material that is about Bowlby and how his theory has such broad applicability and utility. D Peterson

I think there is certainly room and opportunity to find a mutually agreeable solution and I am quite willing to compromise as, I suspect, others are too, although I should not speak for them. DPeterson

Mediator response to above

Perhaps it is too early to start addressing each other, since you are all heavily emotionally involved in this article. Before any more comments are made, please remember this:

• To Sarner: Moving the article to the talk page is not a good idea. Let's work out the issues out on the talk page. Having an article is better than having no article at all. If you feel certain comments are defamatory, point them out and they shall be deleted.
• To DPeterson: Labelling Sarner a "zealot" is not productive, and borders on personal attack. I realise both sides feel strongly about this issue, but we must realise that at the end of the day, what both sides want is a balanced and fair article that does justice to John Bowlby. Keep this in mind.
• To everyone: Attack the contributions, not the person.
• Regarding the section on Bowlby's theory in practice:

I went to several biographies to see what information they contained on the current applications of the theories of their originators:

• • Albert Einstein: A featured article which discusses his research but there is no section on the use of his theories on practice.
  • Wright Brothers: While it mentions their pioneering efforts in achieving flight, the article does not discuss the impact of their work on modern flight.
  • Sigmund Freud: This article on a fellow psychologist does include a rather long section on his legacy.
  • Carl Jung: The article on another psychologist does include a section on his influence on modern psychology. However, it is short and one paragraph long.

In other words, there are precedents for both sides of the argument. There should be a section on the influence of Bowlby's theory on modern psychology. However, most of the analysis of the theory should occur on the attachment theory page. Most importantly, any comments on the theory must be referenced from reputable sources, such as the American Psychological Association.

• Regarding linkspam:

These two sites http://psychematters.com/bibliographies/bowlby.htm and http://attachment.edu.ar/bio.html seem notable enough to include in an external links section. One is maintained by Dr. Juan Carlos Garelli of the Buenos Aires History of Science and Epistemology Research Center while the other lists a bibliography of Bowler's works. In such a case, I would refrain from calling these linkspam.

Whatever eventuates from our discussions, please remember to be civil to one another. Don't call one another zealots or rude. Leave all your previous interactions with one another in the past, as difficult as it sounds. Only after this occurs, can meaningful progress be made. Good luck! Brisvegas 00:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me. It seems that what is on the page now under Practice comes close to what is between the Jung and Freud bio's. However, if you think a shortened version would be a more acceptable compromise, I certainly would be willing to consider that. The use of reputable sources and materials from professional-peer reviewed journals and professional organizations (such as APA, NASW, etc.) also seems reasonable and a criteria that I've been adhering to.

DPeterson 01:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

There are other, relevant comments on the mediator's talk page that I would like to add here, if that is ok...if the mediator prefers some other linkage, that's fine too. DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I leave out the negative or personal attacks as not being relevant:

1. ::Discussion of how Bowlby's theory is used in practice seems very relevant as it shows how influential he has been and remains.

Aweidman

2. ::I'd like to see Sarner leave the article alone or merely add what may be relevant material and let other reader's comments guide the growth of the material. It is my belief that material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice and attachment theory is relevant here. Including links to other Wiki articles that are mentioned in the Bowlby article also seem relevant and appropriate. Links to outside pages that describe material are also relevant. While Sarner calls all this SPAM, I disagree as these links provide additional information to readers. MarkWood

3. ::Leave the material in about how Bowlby's attachment theory is being used by practitioners. As a practitioner and licensed mental health professional I believe I have some knowledge and expertise to offer. I've published articles in professional peer-reviewed journals, edited a book, and use, among other methodologies, an approach that is evidence-based and has been supported by a number of prominent professionals in the field. Furthermore, there have been several publications about this approach in peer-reviewed professional journals, it has been accepted as material worthy of presentation at various professional organization annual conference, and has other support. I mention this only to point out that I am knowledgeable about this topic, subject matter, and article. ..but this may not be relevent to the direct question: Should information about how Bowlby's attachment theory is used in practice be in an article about Bowlby. To that question, I would say it is relevant (and others seem to say so too). AWeidman

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I stated on the mediation page: Leave the edits alone and allow readers to read about Bowlby's attachment theory as applied in practice today to successfully help very disturbed and damaged children DPeterson

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Sarner comments on mediation

1. With regard to linkspam, I am the one who included the two sites mentioned in the article. I at least do not regard them as linkspam. The spam to which I referred were initially in the bibliographic references, such as AWeidman's book, which is tangential at best to Bowlby as a subject. I still don't agree with linking to the DDP article as appropriate in this article.

2. I am omitting discussion of AWeidman's claims because it might skirt too close to the boundaries of wikiquette. In doing so, however, I am not conceding any claims made therein, and in particular that he has any special status or knowledge with respect to this article.

3. I dispute DPeterson's assertion that the links I find objectionable "successfully help very disturbed and damaged children". That unsubstantiated claim underscores my continuing argument that such links are actually advertising.

4. I have supported the compromise proposals listed on the mediation page.

Sarner 05:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I just have a few questions:

1. Which links were you precisely referring to when mentioning linkspam? I misunderstood the links you mentioned as being irrelevant - my apologies.

2. Thank you for accepting the points of compromise, but in light of the fact that I misunderstood which links were the cause of controversy I will probably need to make a new point of compromise.

Thanks for your co-operation, let's see what the others have to say. All the best, Brisvegas 05:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It was awfully hard to follow the arguments in the (now archived) talk page, I realize, and at least my use of wiki jargon may have been confusing to an experienced wikipedian such as yourself. Really, what my objections had been based on was my opinion that the appearance of certain references -- text in the article, references in the "see also" section, and entries in the bibliographies -- which I regarded as advertising when appearing in this article. I tried removing them, but as the edit war developed, I added some of my own as an attempt to balance. (The external links you discussed earlier were not part of either attempt, but the only ones I found on the web that discussed Bowlby at some length. I am not a Freudian -- in fact, an opponent, given the scientific consensus in psychology -- but the two did seem authoritative enough in a Freudian context to warrant reference in this article.)

Anyway, it would probably open up old wounds to mention them specifically again here. If we continue here in the spirit of your proposed compromise #1, this part of the controversy will probably resolve itself, or at the very least become a proper subset of the larger dispute.

Larry Sarner 13:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

COMMENTS ON MATERIAL

I can fully support the principels the Mediator listed and concur.

While I might prefer the original version prior to Sarner's deletions, the page as edited by DPeterson could be fine as it is brief and to the point. So, I "vote" for this version to stay.

I dispute Larry Sarner's assertion that the links he found objectionable do not "successfully help very disturbed and damaged children". The statement has been and is substantiated and is not advertising in any way. There are several articles published in professioal peer-reviewed journals about Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, books on the subject, and presentations at selective national professional organizations. Therefore, it has a place along with Theraplay, Dr. Marvin's material, Dr. Dozier's, and others.

MarkWood 15:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Movement

I congratulate DPeterson on making some big movement toward consensus. I still have some very great concerns which prevents me from saying we are at the end. Yet, what this has done is isolate the area where our disputes still lay.

In the same spirit, I will do some "clean-up" of the article, leaving the disputed parts alone for now, just so we can put any other difficulties to rest.

I will come back later with a detailed argument of my substantive disagreements and we can focus on that.

I thank the mediator for helping us get to this point and urge him to stick around and continue to help with the future sticking points.

Larry Sarner 18:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Positive Changes

The article is very good. I like that it is concise and at the same time detailed. It's focus on generally recognized approaches and the distinction it makes with regard to coercive methods is good. I vote for this version. I hope that now we can agree. It appears that all sides have moved and will probably have to be satisfied with a version that does not meet either sides preferences...that may be the standard for a good compromise! I hope that no one becomes so rigid that there is no room for compromise and that it becomes, again, a matter of "my way or the highway." That is my hope.

Lieberman citation & use of quotes

She uses the term Parent-Child Psychotherapy in her writings (see, for example, Disorders of attachment in infancy. Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America, 4, 571-587 (1995) or "Infant-parent psychotherapy" in C.H. Zeanah (Ed) Handbook of infant mental health NY (2000). Others don't use quotes in describing various approaches, so not sure that quotes are appropriate here around the terms used by various authors, such as floor time or circle of security project.

Regarding the Selected Bibliography

Hi everyone. Congratulations on the substantial progress made so far. I wish all mediations could be as painless! With regards to the bibliography, I suggest that we remove the following references and instead merge them into the attachment theory article:

• Greenspan, S. (1993) Infancy and Early Childhood. Madison, CT: International Universities Press. ISBN 0823626334.
• Holmes, J. (2001) The Search for the Secure Base. London: Routledge. ISBN 1583911529.
• Siegler R., DeLoache, J. & Eisenberg, N. (2003) How Children develop. New York: Worth. ISBN 1572592494.

The books mentioned above are more concerned with attachment theory itself rather than John Bowlby and his original work into the concept. Therefore, they must be moved to the attachment theory article. Should you have any objections, please say so below. Ciao, Brisvegas 07:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It has been done. Brisvegas 10:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I note that the pages for M. Klein, S. Freud, and J. Piaget all contain references about their work, so the reference by Holmes may actually be relevant and appropriate. This can be discussed.

However, I have another question, it's not a big deal, but as an impartial mediator aren't you supposed to collect views and propose solutions and not make unilateral changes? Your suggestions for the references have only been up here a few hours and you may want to solicite comments and ideas for several days/weeks before making changes based on concensus and some majority of thought expressed. I certainly don't check wikipedia every day, but maybe others monitor things more closely. Maybe I misunderstand your role, duties, and responsibilities? Please clarify. DPeterson 16:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. If you look at the date stamps of my two comments, then you'll see that the proposal was up for several days before I changed anything. Regarding your question, I am indeed trying to be impartial. If you disagree with the decision to export those links into the relevant article i.e. Attachment theory, then please tell me. However, I would be surprised if this decision were to cause controversy, since the premise of only including references relevant to the topic at hand is a well-known one, e.g. although Einstein described the formula E=mc², which is used in nuclear physics, this doesn't mean that his article should contain references to books written by others about the atom bomb and its uses. If you believe I acted against consensus, then my apologies. Remember, this action can be easily undone; should a majority of people wish those links to return, then they will be restored. I hope that addresses your concerns. Brisvegas 06:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All I see is the history page noting the editing of the talk page with a June 1 date. I just thought that before making changes you'd want to get opinions for a while. I note that the pages for M. Klein, S. Freud, and J. Piaget all contain references about their work by others, so the reference by Holmes here about Bowlby's work may also be relevant and appropriate. I just think some discussion or conducting a survey and time for comment may be in order since this is not a black/white issue and there is room for divergent thoughts. Best regards, DPeterson 12:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Case closed?

Hello everyone! I must admit, it's been impressive to see how cultured and rational everyone has been of late, and it certainly augurs well for this article. By the way, I have read through the entire article and it actually strikes me as rather interesting - I had never even heard of Bowlby or attachment theory before taking up this case! So thanks for teaching me something.

Since the situation has calmed down considerably, I am considering closing this case. Do you all feel the article is ready for this, or would you like me to hover for a bit longer? In the future, if you are split over an issue you can always seek a third opinion from an impartial third party. Good luck, and thanks for the opportunity! All the best, Brisvegas 01:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Looked fine to me a while ago and this version is ok, although the references could be expanded; but for the sake of peace it's fine to leave as is. The article is concise and quite relevant. It does a very good job as a brief bio sketch of Bowlby and his very important work.68.66.160.228 11:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I'm back. I was gone for a couple of weeks because of family emergencies (medical and property), but I'm ready to take on the differences I have with the current version of the article. I still have to review what has transpired while I was gone before I can propose my changes for consensus-building. In the meantime, I hope the mediator will stay with the case; I suspect the article will need him. Larry Sarner 17:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)