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Armenian genocide received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on April 24, 2013.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Armenian genocide article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34Auto-archiving period: 2 months

Why is there no mention of Kemal Ataturk?

I find it highly distressing that no mention is made of Kemal Ataturk's part leading the Turkish forces during the genocide. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.htmlTerabiel (talk) 08:37, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

That is an incredibly biased website that has no place whatsoever as a source on Misplaced Pages. I am interested though in why there is no mention of Ataturk in the article, even a statement of where he was during the genocide if he had no involvement - it is fairly important given his role in the war of independence, the founding of the republic, and the presidency, and the fact that the genocide occurred so shortly before his ascendency. 60.225.33.120 (talk) 15:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Harper's statistical gazetteer

This is irrelevant, also the statistic does not include all Turkish Armenia and furthermore the population provided include the whole population not only Armenians: including a great variety of tribes & races. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JediXmaster (talk • contribs) 05:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Bodil Biørn section?

I don't understand why Bodil Biørn stands out above the rest of the witnesses to the Armenian Genocide. I think its misleading to have just one of these witnesses talked about. I propose removing the section or make a new section which highlights many different witnesses and their rules in the Genocide. Proudbolsahye (talk) 08:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Settlement of muhaijirs

(quote section 2.3) "As many as 850,000 of these refugees were settled in areas where the Armenians were resident from the period of 1878–1904."

I think this means "From 1878 to 1904 as many as 850,000 of these refugees were settled in areas where the Armenians" were important before 1878 and remained until after 1904, or something like that. --P64 (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Russian and Ottoman Empires

--and Persian, I learned subsequently, although Armenians in the Persianate were few in number after 1828/29, when the modern northern border of Iran at the Aras River was established following the last of the Russo-Persian Wars. (Somewhere we say that 30,000 Armenians who remained in NW Iran moved N to Russian Armenia.) --P64 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Unless I missed it, this article doesn't provide any sense of how many Armenians, or what share, lived in the Russian Empire as of April 1915.

--or at the start of war in 1877, after the final peace in 1878 (Russo-Turkish War (1877–78)), or when the Russian Army left the field in 1917 (Russian Empire#Territory development) --to name three other interesting moments

If I understand the maps here and at Erzurum Province, much territory from the 1914 Russian Empire (and some from 1914 Persia?) --with large Armenian population at that time, I infer-- become part of Turkey sometime later. This may be most of the five modern provinces north and east of Erzurum Province.

Most of those provinces, yes (beige and unmarked on this map). Much more territory was captured by Russian (including Armenian) forces 1915 to 1917 (map, Republic of Van). -P64

Were the territories contested by the two Empires between 1877 and 1917 mountainous with relatively few people, while most Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire thruout?

No, albeit high in elevation above the seacoast. Thh Greater Caucasus and Lesser Caucasus mountains (snow-covered in the photo) were previously acquired by Russia in annexation of Georgia and wars with Iran and Circassia.

Perhaps we have some Imperial maps that will help. --P64 (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

For three territorial maps (not elevation or population) most relevant here, see Russian Armenia, Armenian reform package, Republic of Van. For topography, Caucasus Mountains. For Armenian population distribution, the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia map just below. --P64 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

According to the 1897 Russian Empire Census, there were 1,173,096 persons whose native language was Armenian, which basically is the number of Armenians at the time, although some Armenian sources give higher numbers. For example, the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia (1987 volume I think) (see map) puts the total number of Armenians in 1914 at 4.47 million, of which 45.9% in Russia, 45.4% in the Ottoman Empire and 8.7% elsewhere. This can be considered a highly reliable source by the way.

Were the territories contested by the two Empires between 1877 and 1917 mountainous with relatively few people, while most Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire thruout? Not really, the Armenian Highland is mountainous, but people live throughout the region. The area contested between Russia and Turkey in 1877-78 was mostly the Kars Oblast and the area around the city of Igdir. --Երևանցի 02:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. For this article it may be enough to convey that about half of Armenians lived in O.E., about half in R.E. .

Now I have read several other articles and perused numerous maps. Briefly, here are three articles (especially the linked sections) very instructive about the recent background. Russian Armenia; Armenian Question#Origin; Ottoman Armenia#Reform implementation, 1860s–1880s.

Already by the 1700s, however, much of Armenia and all of the Soviet or modern territory was beyond the eastern frontier of the Ottoman Empire, in the region dominated by Persia/Iran (Afsharid dynasty) that Russia gradually gained in Russo-Persian Wars. There Ottomans ruled only during the 1500s-1600s, approximately.

--P64 (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

For the very big picture, read Armenians in the Persianate, lead paragraph.

These remarks, mainly interspersed above, concern this article only indirectly. My notes provide background, after reading dozens of articles and maps, focusing on my own geographical misconceptions of two days ago. --P64 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Armenian reform package

This article should somehow bring the 1914 Armenian reform package into the account. And Armenian congress at Erzurum. At least one apt sentence for each, with links of course. Probably this should be section 2.4. --P64 (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Denialist literature

Moving this to Armenian Genocide denial#Further reading, because it perhaps does belong there. --Երևանցի 03:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 August 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Also, hearing that things were "my problem" was the last reason why I used the help desk. I was expecting to solve this issue satisfying all parties.

194.27.125.164 (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Footnote 154

The Geofferey Robertson QC article no longer on the given website. The document can however be found at http://groong.usc.edu/Geoffrey-Robertson-QC-Genocide.pdf if someone would like to make the change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.196.1 (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

ZIONISM AND THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

The plans of the 1915-23 Armenian Genocide, where a million and half Armenians perished in a barbaric way in their ancestral lands in modern Turkey, actually were drawn up and were in place by the year 1910 or 1912.

There is the book "Inner Folds of the Ottoman Revolution" written by Mevlan Zadeh Rifat in Turkish and published in 1929, the author, a pro-sultan Turk, claims that the "Armenian genocide was decided in August 1910 and October 1911, by a Young Turk committee composed entirely of displaced Balkan Jews in the format of a syncretist Jewish-Muslim sect which included Talaat, Enver, Behaeddin Shakir, Jemal, and Nizam posting as Muslims. It met in the Rothschild-funded Grand Orient loge/hotel of Salonika." Syncretism means a combination of different forms of belief or practice; masonism fits that description. As the masons started the 1897 revolution in France with the cry "liberty, fraternity, equality," Young Turks used the same slogan in their revolution of 1908.

A 1994 conference paper/lecture by Joseph Brewda of Schiller Institute entitled "Palmerson launches Young Turks to permanently control Middle East " claims the founder of the Young Turks to be a certain Jew by the name of Emmanuel Carasso. He states: "Carasso set up the Young Turk secret society in the 1890s in Salonika, then part of Turkey, and now part of Greece. Carasso was also the grand master of an Italian masonic lodge there, called 'Macedonia Resurrected.' The lodge was the headquarters of the Young Turks, and all the top Young Turk leadership were members."

Further on Mr. Brewda says: "During the Young Turk regime, Carasso continued to play a leading role. He met with the sultan, to tell him that he was overthrown. He was in charge of putting the sultan under house arrest. He ran the Young Turk intelligence network in the Balkans. And he was in charge of all food supplies in the empire during World War I." It is ironic that four centuries after the Turkish sultans welcomed the expelled European Jews into Turkey, certain Jews belonging to secret societies and to Zionism will kick the sultan out of power early in 20th century, destroy the Ottoman Empire, and celebrated their victory by massacring by proxy almost the whole Christian Armenian people, one million and half Armenians; half million Greeks; and half million Christian Assyrians & Arameans.

In 1982, after the Israeli army conquered Lebanon, they celebrated their victory by massacring by proxy children and women in the Palestinian camp of Shattila, in Lebanon, by allowing Lebanese Phalanger militia fighters to move into the camp for two days and murder its inhabitants. Eighty percent of the camp were killed. Nearly all of the dead were old men, women and children and all of them had been unarmed. Not one gun, not one knife was found in their possession, claims a Palestinian witness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.60.237 (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

This article is based on published material by credible sources - e.g. historians and similar academics. We do not use material from batshit-crazy sources like the Schiller Institute - a front organisation for the antisemitic LaRouche movement. As for that happened at Shattila, it is of no relevance whatsoever to this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree with AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs). Well said. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:24, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree with unsigned user at 99.104.60.237. Admonish AndyTheGrump that antisemitism and falsehood are two different things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenab6 (talk • contribs) 18:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Another cultural reference to add

I came to this article because I am reading the novel "The Sandcastle Girls" by Chris Bohjalian, which is based on the historical context of the Armenian Massacre. Both because the novel is rooted in and respectful of this history and and because Mr. Bohjalian is an American author of Armenian descent, I wanted to recommend that it be mentioned in the cultural section of the article. Thank you. 159.250.64.237 (talk) 05:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC) Naomi Klayman

See Armenian Genocide in culture. Feel free to add the work to that article. --Երևանցի 05:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Reverting Option

Anything against these claims is removed. Why do you revert our ideas? This is a talking page. How it is a 💕? --Kafkasmurat (talk) 20:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

This isn't a 'talking page' or forum. Misplaced Pages talk pages are intended exclusively for discussions concerning article content - which has to be based on published reliable sources, and not on the opinions of contributors. If you want to discuss the general topic, rather than our article, you will have to do so elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear AndyTheGrump, if the PUBLISHED and REFERENCED decision of EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS (ECtHR) on Armenian "Genocide" is not a PUBLISHED RELIABLE source, then what is a reliable source??212.174.38.3 (talk) 08:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) Decision On The 1915 Armenian Event

This must be added to the article:
On 17 December 2013, (the case: Perinçek v. Switzerland (application no. 27510/08)) European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) punished Switzerland for criminally convicting Mr. Perinçek for publicly challenging the existence of the Armenian genocide. Perinçek said "Armenian genocide is an international lie". ECHR punished Switzerland for violating Perinçek's right of freedom of expression (Article 10). ECHR referenced three decisions on its verdict:
a. In November 2007, The Spanish Constitutional Court had found unconstitutional the offence of negation and had taken the view that the mere negation of a crime of genocide did not constitute direct incitement to violence.
b. In February 2012, the French Constitutional Council had declared unconstitutional a law which made it a criminal offence to deny the existence of the genocides recognised by the law, finding it to be incompatible with freedom of expression and freedom of research.
c. The United Nations Human Rights Committee had expressed its conviction that “aws that penalize the expression of opinions about historical facts incompatible with the obligations that the Covenant impose on States parties ...” and that the “Covenant not permit general prohibition of expressions of an erroneous opinion or an incorrect interpretation of past events”.

I hope now that the researchers can freely and without any fear research what happened in 1915. Notice that in 2013 ALL Ottoman Empire archieves are open to the researchers and any researcher can freely read ALL the archieves and documents in Turkey. However, Armenia still does not allow its archieves to be searched and reserached. 212.174.38.3 (talk) 08:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

References

1. ECHR ECHR punished Switzerland for criminally convicting Mr. Perinçek for publicly challenging the existence of the Armenian genocide (Perinçek said "Armenian genocide is an international lie").

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