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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sharon Presley article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. SPresley (talk · contribs) / Presley, Sharon This user has contributed to the article.

Not notable

Notability is not demonstrated by the fringe sources cited in this piece. Are there any citations of Presley in notable RS? Steeletrap (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Isn't a bit strange you would show up on this obscure article the day after I edit it. I know you aren't happy I've protested your explicitly stating dislike of libertarians and making all sorts of questionable edits that had to be brought repeatedly to noticeboards, including ANI about refusing to stop harassing me on my talk page. But isn't tag teaming to make sure I no longer edit the past BLPs I complained about enough for you? User:Carolmooredc 18:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Carol, please strike your personal attack questioning my motives. Thanks. Steeletrap (talk) 18:58, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you have some other reason for coming to this "non-notable" individuals article the day after I edited it? User:Carolmooredc 20:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Sharon Presley was pointed out to me by a peer as one that needs work, and quite possibly deletion on grounds of lack of notability. I've had my eye on it for weeks. Steeletrap (talk) 20:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

So your faculty advisor is Specifico? User:Carolmooredc 14:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added a few RS citations. Will add more if I find them.--JayJasper (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

New-extended WP:RS

Here editor added these refs:

The Klatch book already used as a reference discusses the life choices, experiences and views of Presley quite a bit, offering them as examples on pages 51–52, 69–70, 82, 84, 93, 118, 150, 152, 162, 269, 273, 286, 296 and 307. A book which is not yet used as a reference is Rita Mae Kelly's A Generation Divided: The New Left, the New Right, and the 1960s. Kelly talks about Presley in the book's introduction, devoting two paragraphs to a study by Presley and her co-authors about Mormon feminism. Reason magazine interviewed her and put the video on their website as "Sharon Presley on Libertarian Feminism". AOL and Huffington Post also hosted this same video. Joan Kennedy Taylor says that Presley was very influential to Taylor's career, through her role in the Association of Libertarian Feminists (Reclaiming the Mainstream, page 7, ISBN 0879757175 ). Taylor also cites Presley's works "Government is Women's Enemy" and "Suzanne LaFollette". Author John F. Welsh writes about Presley's introduction to The Anarchists, spending a paragraph of his book After Multiculturalism on her ideas. Professor Jennifer Burns discusses Presley in Goddess of the Market, saying she was "one of the few women to become active in the libertarian movement" and thus was a standout example. These sources show that Presley has influence, has been cited, has had her ideas analyzed and quoted.

ight have a few more to add. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:09, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful. Please do incorporate the material into the article. I'd WP:DIY, but at present other fish are frying. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 06:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Too busy myself for constructive editing, especially of articles that might be AfD'd. (Though I think I'd appeal this one.) But it's on my ever growing list. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:11, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Srich, "Other fish are frying?" I think you'd put it better with "other geese are cooking." SPECIFICO talk 23:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Poor job of deleting material

I am going through those recent edits and see a lot of material was deleted that is in the sources and is of relevance and interest to general readers - as well as editors who found her of note at the AfD. I'll reorganize it slightly with a clearer indication of which publication said what. One must be as careful in deleting as one must be in adding material. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 06:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Poor job of adding material

I've given a quick look and cleaned up the worst of the misrepresentations, undue and SYNTHy content recently added here. Please be careful not to go beyond what the sources say. The worst of the errors are gone now, but the sourcing is still extremely weak and there is nothing currently in the article to suggest that this is a notable individual. Please continue to express your concerns on talk. SPECIFICO talk 13:29, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Problems with recent edits

• This diff -SPECIFICO says Presley "aroused" by reading Rand. Obviously snide and sexually evocative language.
• This diff SPECIFICO ignores what source says that Presley and her boyfriend "Spearheaded ALA". If you want full details fine, change it to: She was radicalized when her boyfriend, who in the 1960s was leader of one of the first national libertarian organizations, the Alliance of Libertarian Activists, was arrested in Berkeley, California. Together they made the group successful enough to get their own office.
• Remove what source says "which was a center of libertarian activism. Do we need more sources? I saw that elsewhere as well.
• At this diff you removed "center for libertarian activism" when source said "center for libertarian discussion". I didn't want to plagarize or quote. Why not just be collaborative and suggest alternate language?
• remove Stanley Milgram description. It could have been worded in a shorter form, but if people known for BAD things can be described per their articles, so can people known for notable things.
• This diff - the source talks about both research and teaching. Again, better wording possible, but why delete it entirely?
• Here per below she is currently LISTED as executive director; the web page photo description conflates her past position as coordinator with current one; obviously they need to fix that. It's clear what her current position is.
• Views section only needed cause you erroneously erased ALF paragraph.
• This diff source says "book catalog and book review magazine" - it was both. Maybe we should use their exact working, but no good reason to change it to dismissive "worked on promotional materials".
• This diff, ok, there's a difference between Klatch and website. Obviously they need more details. Like Nathan said let's start it and Sharon said, OK! at the same lunch or whatever the case may be... That's in email too...

These issues can be dealt with... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Please review the applicable policies which required these edits. SPECIFICO talk 16:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

There are issues which are judgement calls within policy, so please don't be so dismissive on a discussion page. I think you are "competent" enough to figure out the difference in the above listing and explain why you think your edit is better than my suggestion or correction. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

ALF

We have no secondary RS to verify that ALF is anything more than a web page today. We have a source which attributes its founding to Torie Nathan. The web page of ALF is states in one place that SP is national coordinator and in another that she's director. Until we have some resolution of this matter, the content should not be in the article. SPECIFICO talk 21:55, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

First, let's talk about the sources in this version instead of making vague comments:

• Klatch: Nathan and Presly together formed ALF What source are you talking about leading you to remove that material??
• Second, one error on the current ALF web page is no reason to delete all material including the past. The listing that says "Executive Director"; the description under the photos says "past and present national coordinator." Someone got sloppy, obviously. I sent an email. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Your WP:OR is not a substitute for well-sourced WP content. SPECIFICO talk 14:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, it's not OR to fail to see inconsistencies between sources. Second, I see per above section that further elaboration between Klatch as source and webpage needed. Nevertheless, no reason to remove that Nathan started organization and Presley is LISTED as exec director, even if description under photos fudges past vs. current titles. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

WP does not publish "fudge" in article text. Don't forget BLP. Caution is advised. We have no current source to verify that this "ALF" is currently more than an ill-edited relic web page. SPECIFICO talk 15:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

That is still no excuse for not discussing what to do about the earlier refs as to her role in creating it and her past role as coordinator. She emailed back she's out of town til after the second and can't deal with website issues until then. Plus if you don't trust the website, we better use Klatch's info now, right? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Riggenbach LVMI book review unnotable?

Re this diff saying " who cares? Riggenbach is non-notable & LvMI bloody well should be)". If LVMI is notable, their publishing a review is. Please explain or it will be reverted. I think at WP:RSN others would agree its notable. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

He has stated the reason for the revert. Do not threaten an edit war. Please respond to the statement in his edit summary. SPECIFICO talk 21:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

A) I stated the problem, that LVMI being notable makes the review notable and B) Per WP:BRD Don't assume that an edit summary can constitute "discussion" and C) it's generally agreed that if an individual fails over a period of time to respond the presumption is they accept your view and it can be reverted. Sorry if I said it short form, assuming the editor knew that. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

However, even more instructive is this from Misplaced Pages:EW#Handling_of_edit-warring_behaviors. If, despite trying, one or more users fail to cease edit warring, refuse to work collaboratively or heed the information given to them, or do not move on to appropriate dispute resolution, then a request for administrative involvement via a report at the Edit war/3RR noticeboard is the norm. In fact I believe I and another editor had to quote that policy to SPECIFICO a few months ago when he was refusing to engage in discussion of our problems with his edits. Though I think the first step is to ask the editor to respond on their user talk page. Next to wait a week and, if the editor does not disagree with one's argument, and no one else opines, revert. Rather than bother others with what maybe a drive by edit or one the editor doesn't choose to defend. Often the editor has moved on and is not even watching the page so no report to WP:EW is necessary. And of course one can always do a WP:RSN, RfC, etc. as relevant if no one will respond at all. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:55, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It was not I who did the revert. I was the one who had added the content, but @Sitush: reverted it and I am asking you to discuss with him the content disagreement and not threaten EW. Please strike your remarks about me, which do not belong here. I am prepared to seek enforcement of Community Sanctions against you. SPECIFICO talk 15:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I refuse to get involved in this until CMDC retracts the usual gung-ho personal attacks. Enough is enough. - Sitush (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

SPECIFICO: You were stating that his edit summary was sufficient and a person didn't have to discuss anything at talk page. You have not answered my concerns on other issues above in Talk:Sharon_Presley#Problems_with_recent_edits which was the context for my reminding you - which I had meant to mention there but forgot.

Sitush: What is a personal attack? I'm just trying to correct my own incorrect assumption based on many editors' comments on when it's ok to revert when there's been no reply to content discussions. It's not an attack to note that editors should discuss disagreements. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:06, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Source discusses Presley research

RE:This revert of my correction re-adding research, without the editor starting any discussion here. Note that Klatch on page 286 discusses Presley research, para 2 sentences 4 and 5. I hope I won't have to type them out here. Sigh... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to -- and aren't even advised to -- ask for permission before making a bold edit. Nonetheless, you are correct as regards the Klatch source, so I reverted my change. Steeletrap (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

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