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Revision as of 11:06, 17 June 2006

Quote

The quote needs to cite its source. -- Reuben 16:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Can the source be his book (Why I am not a Muslim?)? Anyon that owns it (unfortunately I don`t) could verify if it is. PMLF 01:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The quote is from a radio show called The Religion Report, which I added to the external links. It still needs cleaned up though, the quote leaves a bit in the middle out with notice. JayMehaffey 22:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone else think there are too many quotes? There are more quotes than actual information about the author. Also, the quotes (if they are to be left on the page) need to be cited inline or at the very least more context needs to be provided. Thanks. DevanJedi 13:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Literal translation of name

I've heard that Ibn Warraq means "son of the scribe"? Is this true? If so, it might be worth mentioning in the article. Andjam 04:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

My dictionary defines it as meaning mainly "paper manufacturer, papermaker"; it can also mean a copyist of manuscripts. AnonMoos 17:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Zora

Zora, why are you removing reference to a exsting article?

Further, Ibn Warraq is a "self proclaimed" ex-Muslim, since his identity is secret. There is no evidence of him ever being a Muslim. You know that some people love to call themself that, sometimes witout even knowing basic Islamic prinicples. --Striver 10:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Because those articles are not necessary and should not exist, that's why. I wish you would stop making them. You seem to get some satisfaction out of creating a new article which I just do not understand. As for Ibn Warraq's Muslim background -- having read a number of his books, I am absolutely sure that he was raised in a devout Pakistani family. That could not be faked. He's too bitter about the rote religious instruction he received as a child! Adding the "self-proclaimed" is raising a doubt about his background -- and I don't believe that anyone other than yourself has ever doubted it. Zora 10:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course it could get faked, why couldnt it be? And yes, i dont belive he is a Muslim, i belive he is just another muslim hater that gets a kick out of promoting apostacy, and makes a buck on bigots bying his book. Therefore its "self proclaimed", since we have nothing exepct his word for it. Actualy, we dont even know if it is one person or a group of persons writng it, just to make a point.

NO one but you has EVER raised this doubt. It is not notable. He has published many books, he has a website, he gives interviews -- this is one person. Nor is he doing this to make money, I should say, since most of his books are dry-as-dust collections of academic articles that wouldn't be big-sellers. You clearly haven't read any of his books. He is just NOT one of the flamboyant Muslim-haters like Robert Spencer. His sour experience with Islam as a child has turned him against ALL religion, not just Islam. He criticizes Islam, but it's informed criticism, not mud-slinging. I'm removing the phrase, dang it. Zora 08:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe i dont know as much as i should about this character. I like your new edit, its ok. --Striver 13:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding books:You dont own wikipedia. Dont like the book article? Dont look at them. You do remeber that nobody agreed with your "Striver is making book articles!!!" and that i got encourged to keep doing just that ? --Striver 14:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

How do we know that the Pope is Catholic? Should we call him a self-proclaimed Catholic? Andjam 10:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Because we know how his parents are, what school he went to, etc. --Striver 14:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Could you provide some examples of noteable people claiming to call themselves Muslim but aren't? Andjam 10:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Notable people usualy make sure to keep a secret identity if they want to fake being muslis, otherwise they wouldnt become notable as their hoax would imediatly be discovered. Here is a example of a hoax that did not become notable: User:Saduj al-Dahij.--Striver 14:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

"Usually"? Pray, who else do you suspect is a "self-proclaimed" Muslim? Andjam 09:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

People may wish to peruse Misplaced Pages:No original research Andjam 09:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

It's inaccurate to refer to Ibn Warraq as a scholar

Ibn Warraq is merely a pseudonym; because we don't know who he is, we don't know what his credentials are. Therefore, we can't simply state that he is a scholar. The fact that he has written a number of books doesn't make him a scholar. Abu Hanifa was an Islamic scholar, and John Esposito is a non-Muslim scholar on Islam. Ibn Warraq is just an author. BalancingAct 15:53, 28 January 2005

If he writes scholarly books, he's a scholar. Andjam 03:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of scholars who would vehemently disagree that Warraq's books have any scholarly value whatsoever. The very title of his most well-known work, "Why I am not a Muslim", indicates a strong non-scholarly bias. Given that we have no information about his credentials, it's best to just call him an author and leave it at that. BalancingAct 01:55, 29 January 2005

Just because some (unnamed) people supposedly say that his works are no good doesn't mean he is not a scholar. Andjam 07:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Is Bertrand Russell not a scholar because he wrote a book called Why I Am Not A Christian? Brentt 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

His books contain glaring factual inaccuracies and parts of them are incredibly poorly written. Most academic scholars on Islam don't even take him seriously. It's true that the controversial nature of his work alone doesn't disqualify him as a scholar, but his anonymity coupled with shockingly unprofessional tendencies in his books (like his failure to document or provide citations for entire chapters) is enough to refrain from objectively labeling him a scholar. BalancingAct 02:25, 29 January 2005

If notable people criticise his work, then by all means mention what those notable people say in the body of the article, but your personal opinion would count as No original research Andjam 09:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

For starters, try this: http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/warraq.htm BalancingAct 16:06, 29 January 2005

I'd say that Ibn Warrag qualifies as a "popular" scholar, like Karen Armstrong. He has had university training (he studied under Watt) but he is not an academic. He collects and comments on academic papers for a non-academic audience. Does an OK job of it, too. I've got a shelf of scholarly books on Islam and I have a number of his books too. This is scholarly work. Academics don't cite him, but I've never read any criticism either. I don't regard anonymity as a minus; he has good reason to be afraid. He still has family in Pakistan, and they'd be at risk if it were known that a relative was an apostate. Not a comment on Islam in general, just on Pakistan. I'm starting to have a feeling that YOU don't like him, BalancingAct, and that you're looking for reasons to criticize him. Zora 11:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, removing the reference to him as a scholar is not criticism. I haven't added "Warraq claims to be a scholar on Islam, though his work has been dismissed by others in the field." I've simply noted that he is an author and left it at that. Putting aside my biases, I would say that ibn Warraq's work is sorely lacking in scholarly value. His book, "Why I am not a Muslim" is very poorly written. He makes claims about Islam and Islamic history that are patently incorrect. He provides ample citations for the orientalist sources he consults, but virtually none for the Muslim sources. He has an entire chapter on Muhammad (Chapter 4, "Muhammad and His Message") that he claims is based entirely on Muslim sources, but is completely devoid of any footnotes or references to said Muslim sources (not surprisingly, the chapter is replete with blatant inaccuracies). I'm not opposed to the fact that he criticizes Islam; Bernard Lewis is a respectable scholar who has written thought-provoking works critical of Islam. I may vehemently disagree with him, but I won't deny that he's a scholar. Warraq, however, is completely unprofessional in his approach, to an extent that is unworthy of objectively calling him a scholar. And I don't buy his argument for why he has chosen to remain anonymous; Tariq Ali is a former Muslim who also has family in Pakistan. BalancingAct 16:06, 29 January 2005

Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work. If that were all he had published, I wouldn't call him a scholar. However, I have found his collections of scholarly articles, The Origins of the Koran, What the Koran Really Says, and The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, to be useful points of entry into the academic discourse. If you haven't read those books, then your critique is based on a misapprehension. Zora 23:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work doesn't excuse it from minimum standards of scholarly professionalism, nor should it have no effect on its author's standing and reputation. BalancingAct 21:21, 29 January 2005

Now it's very clear that you don't like that book. It is not an academic work and not to be judged by those standards.

I don't agree with Ibn Warraq's attack on religion in general. I'm a Buddhist; he would regard ME as a superstitious fool too. But I find it easy to separate out that aspect of his thought from his other work re Islam -- which consists mainly of presenting scholarly work to the non-academic reader. Don't let your feelings re one book overshadow the rest of what he has done. Zora 03:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Look, we're not talking about how Why I am not a Muslim affects the merit of Warraq's other works; we're talking about how Why I am not a Muslim affects Warraq's standing as a scholar. And I don't think that's a unreasonable analysis. Just because it's not an academic work doesn't mean that it shouldn't be held to basic, remedial, minimum standards of scholarly professionalism. BalancingAct 00:41, 30 January 2005

The one cite you've managed to find accusing Ibn Warraq of unprofessionalism is an essay by a Muslim on an Islamic website. I've been collecting various academic bibliographies (to guide my own reading). None of them mention Ibn Warraq. None of them mention Karen Armstrong either. Those are popularizing works. I've read them both. They gloss over difficulties. OK. But I don't recall being "offended" by either one, the same way I'm offended by something like Steven Shwartz's work on Wahhabism. I didn't finish my PhD, but after 3 years in graduate school at the University of Chicago, I think I could be regarded as a scholar.

If you can find a review by a serious academic scholar in a peer-reviewed secular periodical, we can cite that as an indication that his status is debatable. Zora 06:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

About the "ISIS" web site

An interesting point: "Ibn Warraq", whoever he/she is, is often being quoted when referring to the "Institute for the Secularisation of the Islamic Society" (ISIS), a web site that purportedly advocates for the "freedom of conscience and religion", whatever is meant by that. The site is mentionned in the link section of this wikipedia article on "Ibn Warraq". That "ISIS" site has been recently overhauled to wipe out its most insulting parts, but the point is that I clearly remember having visited it in its very first beginning: at that time it promoted, in its "links" section, heinous, racist and nowadays illegal nazi-like web sites that have been banned since. Today these links no longer appear on the new ISIS site, but I clearly remember them. Given the admiration that neocons openly display to "Ibn Warraq", it would be interesting to discover the very political "lower parts" of all this "Ibn Warraq" affair. TwoHorned

Citations, please? Google gives one hit for "institute for secular islam" neo-nazi. Andjam 00:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Here you go: go to the internet archive , and look for secularislam.org, with the following date: June 18, 2003. There is a link, at the bottom of the page called "the complete list of sites offering an alternative view on Islam". This link maps to , and have a look of their "masada 2000" link. That is (or was) the site of the Kach Party. Please note that I said "nazi-like", and not "neo-nazi". Moving up in the "Masada 2000" site by visiting their homepage, you will notice the description they give to the palestinian people as a whole: "The cancer within". Nice people, eh, "ibn Warraq" friends ? The Kach party has been banned in Israel since. The funniest part of this is the "review" given by the ISIS web-site on the masada 2000 link: "Good design, good material on the truth". It is rather laughing to unmask "Ibn Warraq" ! TwoHorned

Thanks. I'm glad that Kach's view on Islam is regarded as alternative, rather than mainstream. Don't forget that unmasking is original research. There's nothing wrong with original research, just so long as it isn't done in wikipedia. Andjam 10:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "alternative", at the very least, should we say. I didn't tell who is under the mask, however. So I'm not making original research here. After all, "Ibn Warraq" is a pseudonym, so asserting that the name is a mask is not quite a discovery. TwoHorned

I looked at the links you provided but I don't see and any nazi like web site links. On the old version of the ISIS web page there are many links one is to a rather harsh page as you have pointed out. It might be offensive but it doesn't seem racist. What ethnic group are they attacking? Rascism is not the correct term for deriding a religion. 2ct7 17:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

When they say that a whole population is a "cancer within" (see above) they are targetting a human group. By the way, they also focus on a religion. TwoHorned

A "human group" is not a race. Targeting a a religion is not racism. 2ct7

Here is an excerpt of their "cancer within" web page link: Israel's growing cancer: we are talking about the Arab citizen of Israel (see ). So, not racist do you think ? Even to your standards ? TwoHorned 21:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Humanist

I've added Ibn Warraq to the category of Humanists, since he appears on the secular humanism article.

Given the discussion of the last section, and the unfortunate link found on an old version of "Ibn Warraq"'s favorite web site (I graciously repost it here: ), it seems that quite a disappointing 'humanist" is added to the list ! TwoHorned 20:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)