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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 21 September 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Cberlet (talk · contribs) / Berlet, Chip This user has contributed to the article.

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This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Untitled

• Draft and source pages
• Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche/sources
• Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp
• Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS
• Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox
• Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche/China Youth Daily

Campaign platforms

I don't think the campaign platforms should be removed. They provide a general survey of the views that have been emphasized by both LaRouche and the numerous members of his movement that have run as candidates for other offices. Much of this article is devoted to issues that have attracted attention from various critics or supporters, but too much emphasis on these particular issues gives a somewhat unbalanced picture of what LaRouche stands for. Waalkes (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

They were primarily platforms of Larouche's direct political campaigns, and properly belong in his BLP and not in this weird melange of everything under the sun remotely connected to him which editors could find <g>. There is a huge amount of bloat and rumour in this article - it is time to get it into rational shape, IMO. If we get this down to the "improtant stuff" the article will be an order of magnitude more useful to readers. Example: See Joseph Widney now ... and back in 2008 and tell us which version of that article is more useful to actual Misplaced Pages readers. Collect (talk) 23:56, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Views on Homosexuality and Homophobia

I would like to start expanding this section. It is abundantly clear from a number of LaRouche's comments and articles that he views homosexuals as evil. I am wondering if it would be appropriate to cite this website http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.AreHomosexualsASecurityRisk since it does contain an original copy of the article in which the comments were made. The site is highly critical of the movement and the man himself, and I just want to make sure that it would not be considered biased to cite from an article which is hosted on a site which clearly has an ideological position against the group? Thesassypenguin (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Blogs or websites that are run anonymously are not suitable sources. Also, Misplaced Pages should not make statements characterizing living persons or their views as such-and-such -- instead, under Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, it should quote reliable sources and let them make such claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.150.23 (talk) 05:13, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The site doesn't so much make the claim that LaRouche is anti-gay, rather hosts an article he wrote in which he openly states that Homosexuals are morally defective, untrustworthy, and proud of their "sexual deviation" that part is definitely not anonymous nor is it a statement characterizing LaRouche but his actual words on the subject. I think it may be best to see if I can locate a version of the article hosted elsewhere or a scholarly article outlining his views. Also its interesting that you would respond anonymously to this post and claim that LaRouche Planet is run anonymously when it is actually run by former members of the LaRouche movement who have left and chosen to speak out about the subject using their real names. http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Honorrollofsanity Cheers.

Thesassypenguin (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

An anonymous website/blog with a COI. "Real names" don't add anything to its credibility. This is no reliable source for a BLP. Waalkes (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that this page can be properly considered a biography of a living person. However in light of the conflict of interest POV wise, I'll be looking for a copy of the aforementioned article which is simply hosted on the website, elsewhere, either a journal or another site and using that as a source instead. Keep in mind that I am not trying to cite the views of an anonymous commentator speaking on behalf of the LaRouche Planet website but rather the views that Lyndon LaRouche himself has published concerning gays and lesbians. Thesassypenguin (talk) 21:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to get a few other opinions about this matter from users who aren't editing anonymously, or potentially using a sock account due to being banned permanently (Waalkes, Suspected Sock), before feeling that a consensus has been reached on the subject. Thesassypenguin (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Found a copy of the aforementioned article here http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1987/eirv14n19-19870508/eirv14n19-19870508_038-british_press_asks_are_homosexua-lar.pdf please note that it is the exact same text as used by the LaRouche Planet website. The site is LaRouche's own publication Executive Intelligence Review. Hope this satisfies anyone concerned about POV, COI, or wishing to bring up other objections to mentioning LaRouche's own Anti-LGBT homophobic statements and views. I'll get to expanding the Homosexuality subsection of Minority Politics later on this week. I would be interested to hear people's take on the article prior to then. Thesassypenguin (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that the sources you linked to can be used to add information with BLP implications to this article. Also, please don't accuse other editors of being socks. That is not helpful to a productive discussion. Cla68 (talk) 00:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Sassy, it may be that this topic (LGBT) is of particular interest to you, but I see no evidence that it plays a major role in LaRouche's belief structure or that it deserves more space in this article than it already gets. To be persuaded, I would need to see some reliable sources that say so (See WP:RS for clarification.) Also, when complaining about editors who are editing anonymously, you would do well to remember that you are also editing anonymously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.126.46.157 (talk) 01:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Would this ample selection of sources be appropriate?Thesassypenguin (talk) 14:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, I suggest expanding the one sentence which discusses LaRouche views on Homosexuality to a short paragraph. Stances on LGBT issues are often discussed when they relate to political figures or ideological movements. Cla68 can you please explain why citing someone's own writing is an inappropriate way of outlining their views? I did not make an original accusation about puppetry, I pointed out a concern raised by other editors surrounding this article, and editor. I agree with Waalkes sock or not that the LaRouche Planet website is not a neutral POV source, the article is LaRouche's writing published by EIR and available on his publication's website. The complaint about anonymity arose around the wiki style website LaRouche Planet where I originally found the article. I was not meaning to complain about anonymity by pointing out that its hypocritical to do so anonymously, and was hoping to hear feedback from verifiable members of the Misplaced Pages community when I mentioned it a second time.Thesassypenguin (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It is not up to Misplaced Pages to show that a person is "evil" - it is up to us to present material relevant to his biography without reaching undue weight on any given issue. That noted, "no wiki is ever a reliable source" for any claims at all in any article - BLP or not. See WP:RS if you would like to read more about whuy a wiki is never usable. Collect (talk) 13:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree a wiki is not a reliable primary source of information, published articles and journals however are would you not agree? The list of sources that has previously been compiled about this issue, and the numerous publications in which the comments LaRouche has made can be found are not wiki content they are published material. Executive Intelligence Review is not a wiki style site, nor are the other sources mentioned on the list, which while organized on a Misplaced Pages page are from primary and secondary sources NOT FROM A WIKI, they are published work or transcripts of proceedings. It is not my intent to show that LaRouche or the movement is "evil" (your word not mine), I would simply like to expand the single sentence relating to Homosexuality to a brief paragraph outlining how and why LaRouche has been perceived as Homophobic in his positions the single sentence is vague, and poorly sourced in my opinion, and there are a large number of sources which demonstrate far more clearly what is being vaguely implied in the current article.Thesassypenguin (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Most of the secondary sources on your list are actually about AIDS, not gays, and there is already another section about AIDS in the article which is fairly extensive. The reason primary sources should be avoided is that Misplaced Pages doesn't want you, as an editor, to decide which of LaRouche's statements ought to be included in the article. He has opinions on thousands of topics. In order to decide which ones are significant enough to go into the article, Misplaced Pages relies on secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.151.70 (talk) 01:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

His position on LGBT issues may not be central to the article or LaRouche's belief structure, but I agree that the current paragraph is needlessly vague (seen by whom? what comments?) and should be expanded. It's not informative to say certain comments were seen as anti-gay with no way for the reader to determine the validity or severity of that assertion. As it stands, one cannot ascertain whether these statements could be charitably understood as misinterpretations. A little bit more context would be useful, specially as the sources cited are both in print (and so less readily available). I understand the issue with primary sources, but if that's the case then better secondary sources should be found. --140.247.187.150 (talk) 07:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. However, I did some internet searches and had trouble finding good material. There are a lot of articles by critics in not-so-good sources that simply say "he's homophobic" and let it go at that. In the better sources, books and established newspapers, they say that the LaRouche AIDS initiative was considered homophobic. I think that is problematic, because the group puts forward a rationale for the initiative that is not couched in homophobic language. I don't think we should speculate about motives. Now, I did find an online version of the LA Times article which includes a use of homophobic language, so I'll add that to the article. Joe Bodacious (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Some specific objections an edit

Collect, in this edit , says that his wording is closer to the sources than the earlier edit. Some of his changes are inoffensive, but they are generally farther away from the cited sources than is the material he removed. For example, in the first change, he removes "LaRouche believes that policy-makers should take counsel from Russian-Ukrainian biogeochemist Vladimir Vernadsky" and substitutes "LaRouche follows the beliefs of Vladimir Vernadsky." What does the source say? Well, the source discusses this at length, but the one line that seems to apply most is "LaRouche is persuaded, Vernadsky's conception of the biosphere represents an important change, in depth, in the way policy-makers should think about both the biosphere and basic economic infrastructure as such." That seems much closer to the deleted wording. In fact, I don't see anything in the source that specifically says that LaRouche "follows Vernadsky's beliefs." He clearly thinks that some of them should be listened to, but not necessarily all, so Collect's edit is possibly misleading. Here's another example where Collect's edit is definitely misleading: he removes "the movement developed ideas that became part the Wise use movement," and replaces it with "The movement supports the Wise use movement." What does the source say? It says that Wise Use themes had been developed earlier by LaRouche (exactly as in the deleted wording) and that some LaRouche supporters are active in the Wise Use movement (which I personally doubt, but even if it were so, that does not mean that the LaRouche movement "supports the Wise Use movement.") So this edit is clearly inaccurate. Collect, did you actually read the sources before reverting to your own edit? 173.247.191.211 (talk) 02:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

This article must meet WP:BLP. The prior wording did not meet that policy requirement. Meanwhile, it is considered improper to use an editor's anme in a discussion title. I would also point out that weird grammar does not aid readers. Making any article readable is important. In addition, use of close paraphrase is specifically discouraged by Misplaced Pages, as plagiarism and copyright violations are important considerations. The new version has a "grade level" score of 18.2 (still unreadable) but the old verson had a grade level of 20. I shall try to deduce the grade level further - having paragrpahs which would stymie a Ph.D. candidate does not help Misplaced Pages. Collect (talk) 12:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Now within a rational readability of a 14.9 grade level -- junior college student level. Collect (talk) 13:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

WRT "Wise Use" see:

In fact, some wise use themes were developed earlier by LaRouche and his organizations, and today LaRouchians play an active role in wise use domestically and in Europe. In the early 1980s, the LaRouchians attacked the anti-nuclear Clamshell Alliance as terrorist front.46 This tactic resurfaced later in the wise use movement.

From The Piracy of America: Profiteering in the Public DomainBy Judith Scherff 1999

And WaPo in 1995:

the nutty views of a single Lyndon LaRouche follower made their way through groups in the Wise Use coalition to mainstream organizations like the American Farm Bureau

Allowing a pretty clear connextion here, and borne out by the source in the current article as well. Collect (talk) 13:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The connection is that the Wise Use movement adopted ideas that came from LaRouche. But the article says that the movement "supports the Wise use movement," which does not seem to be supported by any of the sources. Joe Bodacious (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

It shows that the WU movment uses ideas from Larouche, and that his supporters support that movement. Which is all we can really say. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it is improper to state, in a article called "Views of LaRouche and the LaRouche movement," that the movement supports the Wise Use movement. The sources cited do not support that claim. It's fine to say that the Wise Use movement borrowed their ideas, although this is probably the wrong article to put that in. It should go in the Wise Use article. The movement has no control over who might adopt their ideas, and there may be ideas of the Wise Use movement which the LaRouche people do not endorse. Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources?

Footnote #164 cites the following sources: "Chronology of Labor Committee Attacks, issued by New York Committee to Stop Terrorist Attacks, 1973; contemporary articles and photographs in the Daily World, the Militant, Workers Power, the Fifth Estate, the Boston Phoenix, and the Drummer; "An Introduction to NCLC: "The Word is Beware", Liberation New Service, #599, March 23, 1974; Charles M. Young, "Mind Control, Political Violence & Sexual Warfare: Inside the NCLC", Crawdaddy, June 1976, p. 48–56; TIP, 1976, NCLC: Brownshirts of the Seventies, Arlington, VA: Terrorist Information Project (TIP). For many of these I can find no information at all online. I doubt that any of them would meet the standards of WP:RS. Does anyone have information on these sources that they would care to add? Joe Bodacious (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Fursov translation

Since there continues to be quarreling over the Fursov translation, I'll provide a link to the discussion at RefDesk. People should resist the temptation to "spin" what was said there: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2014_January_10#Russian_translation Joe Bodacious (talk) 04:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that Reference Desk editor Lüboslóv Yęzýkin said "I'm not sure that literal translation will do better." Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

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