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Alleged Trisomy 21 Nondiscovery

Two interviews from Marthe do not constitute "Substantial and very credible evidence". The article will be reverted to the 18th of november (again) until credible evidence can be brought forward. The evidence for his discovery is his publication, that is not in dispute other than by members of this "edit-a-thon" that your group is running. (Which is probably against wikipedia rules)

Unless REAL evidence can be brought forward, please refrain from vandalism of this page for your political agenda.

L32007 (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• Note that Gautier is named as second author on Lejeune's paper, which gives her notability and credit for a substantial role.

• Editathons are part of Misplaced Pages culture, though I am not aware of one here.

• Those listed so far are not the only sources. One more here

• http://www.nature.com/news/down-s-syndrome-discovery-dispute-resurfaces-in-france-1.14690 (Casassus 11 February 2014 )

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 19:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree to an extent. I am slightly irritated as well by the fact that the majority of the sources are in French and are being used as sources in this. They need to be translated into English first and understood to be able to be used as sources, I'd wager. Ging287 (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Another possible English-language source to consider: https://www.msu.edu/~riverae/The%20History%20of%20Cytogenetics.pdf

Also, one of Gautier's articles has been translated into English, and has a good/fairly neutral commentary by the translator, Peter Harper:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0690-1

I also think the main article on Down syndrome handles the controversy pretty well, in the History section. Keeponthesunnyside (talk) 23:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, There is no "political agenda" in trying to ensure that Misplaced Pages articles properly reflect the reality of important discoveries. Secondly, I don't know why you're ignoring the primary literature source for the dispute - http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/education/women_science_medicine/_pdfs/Trisomy%2021%20article.pdf. The various other sources are either re-reports of this original dispute or reports that Marthe's version is being widely accepted as credible within the community since she is being given formal recognition by credible scientific organisations. It is unfortunate that sources are in French but being in French doesn't make them any less legitimate as sources, particularly given that the subject of this article is, in fact, a Frenchman. JackAidley (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I have reviewed L32007's changes to the article and I consider that they form little more than an attempt to shift this article back to a more hagiographic slant with the key criticisms removed from the text. In particular I consider it unacceptable and unreasonable to remove the controversy from the introduction. JackAidley (talk) 13:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

What's the status on the translation of the French Sources? Ging287 (talk) 13:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

@Ging287 I think I can find English source for most of it - I will spend some time tomorrow adding sources.

@JackAidly : I am not really worried about User:L32007 ... probably a sock-puppet. I think the idea to keep the introduction general and adding controversy in separate section is not such a bad idea after all. Christophe (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the introduction should mention the controversy. Even a simple referral to the dispute section would probably suffice. After all Lejeune's principle claim to significance is the discovery of Trisomy 21 and so the fact that this is now considered to be a disputed claim is rather important to properly understanding his significance as a scientist. JackAidley (talk) 14:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Christophe, I am not saying that the sources are not enough. I am saying that they are the primary sources in the articles and are not able to be understood by the main audience of the English Misplaced Pages. Rather than finding more sources, could you start the process of having them translated? Thanks. Ging287 (talk) 14:31, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Ging287 Sadly, for copyright reasons, we can't publish translations of the French newspapers. I am sure if you ask for help to translate a key sentence, that can be done as 'fair use'. One of the main sources for the controversy is the English translation of the 2009 50th anniversary article (made with permission) at www.hopkinsmedicine.org. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

@Ging287 "could you start the process of having them translated" - I don't understand the request - as I said there are many sources that report the same facts in English media. The reason I even mentioned the French newspaper was to show that all major French newspaper did run the story (for the purpose of cutting short the reputable source discussion). I did not intend to actually use them as references in the article in the final version. Christophe (talk) 16:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Ging287 : here a translation to English of the original article in "Medicines Scienes" in 2009 : http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0690-1?LI=true#page-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristophThomas (talk • contribs) 13:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

http://i.imgur.com/hxZAM45.png <- I find this mildly infuriating. Ging287 (talk) 17:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Bibliographical details of Concentration Can expanded to include publisher and ISBN. Also incorporated Tiniest Humans (1977) into bibliography, and linked to an online edition.

User Calibanu 13:08, 12 April 2006.

I added the fact that the initial discovery of the extra chromosome was a Marthe Gautier's discovery (see the La recherche article).

Role of Marthe Gautier in the discovery of trisomy 21?

There seems to be substantial and very credible evidence that trisomy 21 was actually discovered by Marthe Gautier, and that Jerome Lejeune inappropriately claimed credit for this. See this interview (http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/engel/130306) and this newspaper article (http://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2014/02/03/trisomie-une-pionniere-intimidee_4359331_1650684.html).

If these allegations are correct than this very hagiographic article about Dr. Lejeune needs extensive revision.Rosieredfield (talk) 23:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs extensive revision, however it seems to me that the question of his and Marthe's exact role in the discovery remains controversial and, thus, we should aim to reflect the disputed nature of the discovery in the article rather than adopting one view or the other uncritically. JackAidley (talk) 14:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree - I haven't been able to find definitive evidence either way. (I would like to find out whether the French human geneticists (FFGH) did any investigation before deciding to give Gautier the award.) Rosieredfield (talk) 22:50, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've toned down some of the adulatory language and reorganized the material a bit. And here are links to two news-type articles in scientific journals about this controversy: one in Nature and one in Science Rosieredfield (talk) 01:25, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. There needs to be more reliable sources. Substantial claims require substantial evidence. From what I can see, RenewAmerica.com is not a reliable source per Misplaced Pages:Verifibility and the other site you linked is behind a pay wall. Per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Access_to_sources, could you provide access to that site so we may better attempt to verify this claim? Ging287 (talk) 14:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"Le Monde" is the most respected newspaper in France - it is hard to find a better more reliable source. Of course there are more newspaper sources - to name just a few (from the conservative La Croix to the left wing La Liberation)

• http://www.larecherche.fr/savoirs/temoignage/decouvreuse-oubliee-trisomie-21-01-10-2009-79706
• http://www.la-croix.com/Actualite/France/Trisomie-21-polemique-autour-de-la-decouverte-de-Jerome-Lejeune-2014-02-10-1104303
• http://sciences.blogs.liberation.fr/home/2014/02/trisomie-21-les-huissiers-de-la-fondation-lejeune.html

There can be no doubt about the fact that Lejeune has a part in discovering the genetic cause of the Down Syndrom. The controversy is about how much of the research has been achieved by Marthe Gautier and whether or not she did get credit for it. --christophe (talk) 15:08, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The current wording, "Marthe Gautier criticized Jérôme Lejeune publicly for claiming full credit for the discovery without specifying that the laboratory work was essentially hers." appears to be taking a position on the issue, and has somewhat informal language. I suggest it be changed to "Marthe Gautier accused Jérôme Lejeune publicly for claiming full credit for the discovery, and has stated that the laboratory work was hers." or something to that degree (Words are failing me too at the moment, sadly). Unless we can prove that the lab work was definitely hers, we shouldn't take a position. Also 3 of the 4 listed sources appear to be just separate coverage of the same story which seems redundant to me. -- 2001:44B8:3187:E900:9161:5DFC:D9A0:64E (talk) 08:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree the wordings need to be reworked - I don't think we can find sources that confirm or deny whether or not Lejeune did consult with Gautier before publishing. It certainly does not look that way (Gautier's name being misspelled her first name altered in the original publications). Lejeune has no formal training in cell culture - which implies Gautier did indeed do all laboratory work - but again the chances of finding sources to actually prove this are fairly slim. However Gautier's narrative is sound and there not much to support Lejeune having a major part in the discovery neither. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristophThomas (talk • contribs) 11:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Whether the story seems believable or not, I don't think we can rightfully decide what happened and report it as fact - best thing in my opinion would be to go into the controversy in a subsection of the page, and just leave the leading sentences as saying something along the lines of "Lejeune has been credited with the discovery of X". This way we're not taking a side but we are reporting the controversy. -- 2001:44B8:3187:E900:E170:27D8:1C80:AB76 (talk) 00:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Article linked to from an outside site

This article has been linked on reddit with requests made to edit it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1z077g/online_action_feminists_rewrite_scientific/ and http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1yuxiz/feminist_input_into_wikipedia_trying_to_rewrite/ --Zx80 (talk) 08:20, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Dispute with Marthe Gautier

"that she worked without assistance from Lejeune to develop the necessary cytological and histological resources and techniques, and used these to prepare microscope slides showing the trisom ..." I do not see anyone disputing Gautier's account of the story. She was the only one in her team having a formal training on cell culture and nobody (including Lejuene) did ever dispute the fact that she carried out the laboratory work necessary for the research. Where are the sources % references ? christophe (talk) 13:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Ask Christopher, he's the one who's added them and has pretty much ignored my inquiries about providing a translation for them. Ging287 (talk) 13:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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