Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:43, 21 June 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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• Archive1,
• Archive2,
• Archive3 (?? - 15:23, 27 December 2005)
• Archive4 (15:23, 27 December 2005 - 20:04, 12 January 2006)
• Archive5 (20:04, 12 January 2006 - 11:37, 26 January 2006)
• Archive6 (11:37, 26 January 2006 - 18:59, 21 February 2006)
• Archive7 (18:59, 21 February 2006 - 23:51, 10 June 2006)
• Archive8 (23:51, 10 June 2006 - ongoing)

Intro

Golbez and Francis, I am apalled that you have been ok with the "NK is part of Azerbaijan" part. It's a blatant violation of NPOV--it's clearly a position, and we on Wiki never assert positions. It's even worse than the "de jure" version, which was actually proposed by Azeri users. They could never dream about this one. From what I read, this was a misguided attempt at compromise by admin EIC. It's still non-NPOV.--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I love you too. Please don't get riled up over TWO WORDS like that. Jesuchristo. You are allowed to mention it to me first before spitting on my grave. --Golbez 07:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I will also note that neither of you are allowed to revert for about 23 hours. Good job! --Golbez 07:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a position, it's a fact. NK is legally part of Azerbaijan. Your current edit is POV, and not neutral at all. Grandmaster 07:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, position of US State Dept, US President, UN, PACE, OIC, etc., are not POV, but NPOV. Plus it's consistent with other Wiki pages, such as on Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, etc. --AdilBaguirov 07:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The intro should be restored to say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan, as it legally is a region of Azerbaijan. THis fact is accepted by the international community, and it's not a position, but a fact, that it is recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 08:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Aw cmon, what's wrong with what I got there now? --Golbez 08:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It ignores the fact that it is de-jure part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In what way? So you have to wait for the second sentence for that. --Golbez 08:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I like that better. Grandmaster 09:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the impression, never meant to spit. Just saying I was really surprised.

De jure is defective--Armenia never accepts NK as de jure part of Az. Plus, if we mention de jure, we need to mention de facto. I am against both--we mention something only once. It already states that noone recognizes NK's independence from Az. If this means de jure, just leave it at that.--TigranTheGreat 09:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, congrats on the Latino guy winning the gubernatorial elections in Cali (you are in Cali, right?).--TigranTheGreat 10:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

They had a primary for the democratic candidate; the election against Arnold Schwarzenegger is not until November. Assuming you mean California, Cali has no governor. --Golbez 16:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that NK is a region of Azerbaijan and is internationally recognized as such. It’s not an opinion, it is an undeniable fact. No one can say that NK has any status other than a region of Azerbaijan. So the intro should say that. Since Tigran resumed the edit war over the intro, I think we have every right to submit this dispute for arbitration. It has already passed all stages of dispute resolution, including mediation and RfC, so we should have no problem with presenting our case to arbcom. Grandmaster 16:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration is not for content matters; you would have to show a lengthy campaign of edit warring. --Golbez 17:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You can go ahead and present it but I guarantee you it will be denied. Compared to TRNC this article is ridden with Azeri pov. The fact that it's recognized as part of Azerbaijan is not disputed but is secondary to it's de facto independence.--Eupator 16:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite a specific instance of "ridden with Azeri pov"? It's much easier if you do that, then make blanket assertions. --Golbez 17:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The intro is not fine and it's nothing like South Ossetia. It's de facto independance must be mentioned first. Azeri pov you say? "This was the name for the area from about 2nd century AD when it was part of Caucasian Albania to 13-14 centuries. Before that the name of Orkhistene was used in the area." Hogwash.--Eupator 17:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for being an outsider, but could you explain what your quoted passage has to do with Azeri pov? --Golbez 20:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was sourced from the website of the Azeri Embassy. It was mentioned in the ref tags.--TigranTheGreat 20:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The source alone cannot make something POV, but yes, I did notice that. --Golbez 21:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, the POV aspect of the quote is this. The Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan has tried to make NK look as a completely historically Azeri land in a 2 step process: 1) Claim that it was part of Caucasian Albania for as many centuries as they can, and 2) Claim that Azeris are the modern Caucasian Albanians. The quote here is an instance of step 1)--even though it clearly contradicts contemporary Greek sources.--TigranTheGreat 07:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, "within Azerbaijan" is ambiguous--it can mean two things--1) within the borders of Az (your intended meaning), and 2) "belonging to Az." (as asserted by Wiki), which we should avoid. We should say "within the borders of Az."--it will clarify that we mean the 1st and not the 2nd.

South Oss. is different for 2 reasons. First, SO doesn't completely lie within borders of Georgie, whereas NK does--that was what you wanted to clarify in the beginning. Second, I agree with Eupator, SO article mentions "de facto." It counterbalances the "within Georgia." I am willing to make concession on "de facto"--it will draw unnecessary "de jure" objections--but the "within borders" needs to be specified. Note that I have already made concessions on "disputed region" and "enclave." I say, forget the Latin terms and let the reader decide--he will read the "not recognized by anyone" and will assume "de jure," and he will read "declared independence" and hopefully will assume "de facto."--TigranTheGreat 20:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Have we reached a concensus on the introduction? If we haven't then we should keep the tag on, if we have then I think we should take if off once and for all. Overall, it looks pretty neutral as it currently stands, though this is just my take (and perhaps, as an Armenian, I may be looking at it differently). -- Clevelander 20:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, NK is part of Azerbaijan -- that is recognized by everyone, UN above all. Hence, it should of course state the obvious and NPOV statement, which is "(with)in Azerbaijan", and not "within the borders of Azerbaijan". --AdilBaguirov 22:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's not recognized by everyone - there are about a hundred thousand people in Nagorno-Karabakh who forcefully disagree. --Golbez 00:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention 3 million Armenians in Armenia, and int. law scholars in New England School of Law:)--TigranTheGreat 00:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, as a figure of speech, "everyone", "perfect", "completely", etc., are often used to denote majority agreement and concensus on any one issue. If we are to believe everything that one group thinks is correct and right, in this case what Armenian group thinks about military occupation, then we in essense get Nazi supporters, fascists, KKK supporters, Holocaust deniers, etc. weightening in, and we should give them at least 50% of the spotlight. That is we can't be selective and approach with double standards such issues -- military occupation and ethnic cleansing of NK and surrounding 7 regions is an illegal, immoral and inhumane act -- just as gasing people in concentration camps or lynching. Thus, what is thought by 3 million people in Armenia plus anywhere from 60,000 to 120,000 is while notable, at the same time only important vis-a-vis discussion of the military situation, but not the whole political, economic, cultural, etc., aspects. It is also peculiar that Armenia has claims to everyone of its neighbours - aside from Azerbaijan and Turkey, claims also Javakhetia from Georgia and hints about northwestern regions from Iran. Meanwhile, the "international law scholars in New England School of Law" do not know Russian and did not have access to all the Russian-only documents -- their assessment is completely biased and unworthy, it contradicts the USSR Constitution, not to mention all the other laws on the books at the time. For myself, a person who has read those laws and the Constitution (which is available in English in certified translation, online) to read this paid-for "analysis" is quite ironic. --AdilBaguirov 08:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You are directed to read Godwin's Law. --Golbez 09:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, I just glanced through the discussion quickly. IMHO, both “within Azerbaijan” and “within the borders of Azerbaijan” in the introduction section are somewhat ambiguous and not very neutral. San Marino is also frequently defined in a similar way, though it is an internationally recognized nation surrounded by Italy’s territories. I’d suggest reorganizing the intro section as follows:

Nagorno-Karabakh is a region, internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, though its majority Armenian population declared separation from Azerbaijan as the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh (NKR) on December 10 1991 and has claimed de facto independence since then.

The region, located about 270 kilometres (170 miles) west of the Azerbaijani capital of Baku, and close to the border with Armenia, was established in 1923 by the Soviet Union as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast of the Azerbaijan SSR. In the waning days of the Soviet Union, the region became a source of dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan culminating in the Nagorno-Karabakh War between the two nations, which claimed several thousands of casualties on both sides and created a large tide of IDPs, chiefly to other parts of Azerbaijan. Although the region’s independence has been unrecognized by any international organization or country, including Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh and some surrounding districts of Azerbaijan remain, since the end of the war in 1994, under Armenian military control, which is regarded by Azerbaijan and the OSCE as occupation.

Armenia and Azerbaijan have been holding peace talks mediated by the OSCE Minsk Group, where, among other issues, the future status of the region is being discussed.

Tell me what you think. Regards, Kober 09:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"San Marino is frequently defined in a similar way" Perhaps, but it isn't on Misplaced Pages. There's some merit in these but I think it makes the intro a bit awkward. --Golbez 09:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a standard reference. Also, my suggestion seems to me more neutral. Can you tell me what makes it awkward? Thanks, Kober 09:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Merely the grammar. If you get rid of all the dependent clauses in the first sentence, you are left with "Nagorno-Karabakh is a region". Not very helpful. --Golbez 09:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, nowhere in your suggestion do you say that it's within the borders of Azerbaijan, which could mean it's an exclave of sorts, like Nakhichevan. That's a major issue here, it's enclaved within Azerbaijan. --Golbez 09:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the dictionaries an enclave is:

1. A country or part of a country lying wholly within the boundaries of another.

2. A distinctly bounded area enclosed within a larger unit: ethnic enclaves in a large city.

Since NK is not a country or part of another country lying wholly within the boundaries of another, it’s not an enclave the way Nakhichevan is an exclave, i.e. part of another country. It could be an ethnic enclave, but still no parallels with Nakhichevan, which is a legal part of another country. NK is legally part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 09:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, please don't make a fight where one exists. It was damn clear that I was not suggesting we call N-K an enclave, I was simply searching for a simple way of explaining in this talk page what I meant. --Golbez 10:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, that was not my intention. I just think that parallels with Nakhichevan are not justified, which was my point. Grandmaster 10:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Kober's proposal makes a lot more sence than the current version with strange wording about "region within the borders of Azerbaijan". It describes both the current international status of NK and separatist control over the region. The words "region within the borders of Azerbaijan" show no connection of that region with Azerbaijan, and therefore it's unclear why the Armenian population declared independence from it, if there was no connection. Grandmaster 09:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. --Golbez 10:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That’s why I think it should say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan, because it’s the only legal status the region has and it makes clear that the Armenian population declared independence to change that status. Grandmaster 10:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

We can simply add enclave before region in the first sentence, though it is only the de facto status that makes NK an enclave, I guess.--Kober 10:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don’t think enclave is appropriate here, because it could be construed as NK is a state or part of another state, which it’s not. Grandmaster 10:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good thing that wasn't what I was doing! My point was, we have to give the geographical context. Consider these two options: "Nebraska is a region claimed by the United States", and "Uruguay is a region claimed by the United States". One is an exclave; the other is surrounded by the borders of the United States. My only point was, perhaps we should point out that N-K is surrounded completely by the rest of Azerbaijan. So far as I know, until I put that into Geography just now, it was absent from the article. --Golbez 10:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree with you.--Kober 10:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you last edit makes perfect sense, including the part that explains geographic situation of NK. Grandmaster 10:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Kober's introduction better than the one we have now. It's not only more neutral, IMO, but it reads better. I say we add it. -- Clevelander 20:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't, IMO the first sentence has very poor readability. --Golbez 21:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Trying one last time.

Here is a new section.

Here are the rules for the section.

1. No putting words in anyone's mouth.
2. No more repetition. This means that you are only allowed to mention 'international recognition', "16%", "ethnic cleansing", et.al. once per entry.
3. No more discussion about the CIA ethnolinguistic map, which some people have decided to use to ascribe motives and actions to me that did not exist.

Now, let's discuss the Misplaced Pages article on Nagorno-Karabakh, including the chart of provinces and the map therein. Nothing more. Nothing less. Can we do that? --Golbez 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

So should I summarize my points about the NK map on the Wiki NK page and the table, or it's all cleared up by now and we reached an agreement? Best, --AdilBaguirov 08:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned things up for you, I hope you do not mind. I just want that nasty fight behind us. Any complaints with the article, map, chart, whatever, discuss here, just please, no repetition or other debating techniques. Also, please no large pastes - we know what the international community has said, we don't need to be reminded. --Golbez 16:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

With regard to intro, the ultimate result of the edit wars was the replacement of the words a region of Azerbaijan with the words a region within Azerbaijan. This is wrong, the intro should say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. That’s the accepted international status of the region, there’s no other. All UN Security Council resolutions refer to NK as a region of Azerbaijan, and so do other international organizations and countries. This is not just a position, this is the internationally accepted status of region, which the intro should reflect as it is a fact. Therefore the current revision is POV and the original version should be restored. Grandmaster 07:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

And add "self-styled" or "so-called" or "unrecognized" at least every other time that NK is mentioned, replace the "NKR" with simpler "NK", change the map to reflect the official, recognized toponyms, and of course stress that it is de jure part of Azerbaijan and recognized as such. --AdilBaguirov 07:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We're going to mention that it is unrecognised in the lead. We will not be putting "self-styled", "so-called" or whatever in front of every mention of the name. It isn't encyclopaedic. This is an encyclopaedia article, not a UN, or other political document. - FrancisTyers · 10:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

But why was removed the mention that it is a region of Azerbaijan? Grandmaster 10:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Francis, that's why I say "every other time" to mention so-called, etc. But there is an easier way -- you don't have to say it more than once in the article if all instances of "NKR" are replaced with "authorities of NK". This solves the problem fairly. --AdilBaguirov 12:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone says it, it's a position. I don't care if it's UNSC. Unless you can touch it, measure it, feel it, it's not a fact--it's position. Stating it as a fact is POV.

Golbez, about the "within borders." If we say "within Azerbaijan", we have to add de fact without the de jure--that's how it is in s. Oss. article. "Within Azerbaijan" alone is too much like "region of Azerbaijan," which was what I originaly objected to. "within borders of azerbaijan" states your point exactly--the need to provide the geographic context (that it's an enclave)--TigranTheGreat 22:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a de facto enclave, but de jure part of Azerbaijan. To call it an enclave is Karabakh POV; to call it part of Azerbaijan is Azeri POV. The fact is simply what I stated, it's a de facto enclave but de jure part of Azerbaijan. The best solution is to state the region or territory's (I think region is a better word, but to each their own) location, which is in Azerbaijan, without saying outright it's PART of Azerbaijan. That is a difficult balance to make. --Golbez 23:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine, that's why we didn't use the "encalve" word but your choice of "within." What's wrong with "within borders of Azerbaijan?" It's your intended point--geographic context.--TigranTheGreat 23:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I was the one with the problem with "within the borders of". --Golbez 23:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think your compromise solution actually had "within the borders of" (), then you immediately removed the "borders." It think your first version clearly states the point. This is the best way to avoid the "de facto/de jure/de mojo" mess. And this is the best way to reach a middle point and get over the intro.--TigranTheGreat 23:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, though I still agree with my next edit. --Golbez 00:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we restore the original intro, which was a compromise, achieved after many months of disputes. Check the last 2 archives. The fact is that NK is de-jure part of Azerbaijan, not region within the borders, but a region of Azerbaijan. It has no other status. The current version is Armenian POV and is not neutral. The position of international community is clear: NK is recognized as part of Azerbaijan, and it’s not just a position, the status of NK is based on it. Therefore removing that fact that it is a region of Azerbaijan is absolutely unacceptable. It is actually considered a good manner to discuss the changes to controversial articles with other users and don’t make unilateral changes. But the way you guys change the intro based on your own vision without making account of the position of the other side is no good at all. I attach a totally disputed tag, as the current version of intro is not neutral. Grandmaster 07:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"it has no other status"? What about 'de facto'? Your own POV is leaking, Grandmaster. --Golbez 07:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian POV would be "NK is independent." That's not what the current version states--it says the pure facts--declaration of independence, and non-recognition. Therefore, it is a nice neutral middle ground between the Armenian and your POV. Your version goes the other way, and therefore is POV.

As long as there are more than one POV's on the status, any statement regarding the status is by definition a position. Under NPOV standards, it's absolutely unacceptable to assert positions, including "NK is part of" or "not part of" Azerbaijan. If that's what "unrecognized by others" means, let the readers draw the conclusion.

Your refusal to compromise, and your continuous insistence on reverting without even trying to discuss has been the reason behind the edit wars. I suggest you adopt good manners in editting before telling others to do so.--TigranTheGreat 07:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The edit war started as soon as you returned here and made changes to the intro without discussing it with others. Before that this article was stable for many months. It is a fact that the current legal status of NK is a region of Azerbaijan, which is confirmed by international community. Removing that from the article and introducing POV vision of things will not help to keep this article neutral, stable and balanced. I once again suggest we restore the version of intro that existed before you changed it. Grandmaster 08:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the edit war resumed after you automatically started reverting without even attempting a discussion. My edit had nothing to do with you--it modified a line that was so POV that even you had never offered it. I never introduced a POV version--my POV would be "NK is independent." As long as the status is disputed by principal parties, their positions are just that-positions. I suggest we leave it at the current factual, non-POV version. It's the best deal possible for this kind of article.--TigranTheGreat 09:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Here’s your first edit: You introduced a POV edit to the intro, which was stable for many months, and did it without discussing it with other users. And I don’t remember you calling for discussion, you just made that edit and reverted any attempts to restore the status-quo. Current version is absolutely unacceptable and we will have to go through dispute resolution process again. Grandmaster 10:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that dispute resolution is required when the only person voicing a totallydisputed dispute is someone who himself has a clear POV. A more valid suggestion may be a request for comment; get the community in here to see if they consider it neutral or not. --Golbez 16:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Stable doesn't mean neutral. Articles are continuously editted and get improved. Your uncompromising stance prevents any improvement to this article. I saw a blatant POV phrase, I modified it, and I discussed it on the talk page. You started a revert war without discussion, which is your habit. The current version is the best middle ground between the various POV's. If we are to keep improving this article, this is the best deal.--TigranTheGreat 10:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, your version is good. I have two objections though. 1) "Armenian military control" is more neutral than "control by Armenian Military"--the second implies Armenia's military (which is disputed), and the first is more general and doesn't choose between "local Armenian forces" or "Armenia's forces". 2) I think "control" is more neutral than "occupied" whether with respect to NK or the surrounding Azeri lands. Also, we might want to specify that we are talking about "surrounding regions of Azerbaijan," so the reader will know that it's not just the NK being occupied. Thanks.--TigranTheGreat 17:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know if the Armenian military is in actual control of Nagorno-Karabakh, or merely - at least in word - assists the local self-proclaimed NKR military. Can someone clear this up for me? As for #2, I still think we should mention that the non-NK portion of Azerbaijan is occupied, as it has not declared independence, has not been annexed, making it de facto and de jure part of Azerbaijan, but with foreign military in control of it. You will note that I specified that only the area around N-K, not N-K itself, is occupied; N-K was noted as controlled. But a clarification on my question here about the Armenian military in N-K would be very helpful, thanks. --Golbez 20:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeris say it's Armenia, Armenians say it's local forces, PACE resolutions say 'local separatists control NK', and for the occupied territories, they use the general "Armenian forces" term. So, it's all over the place. Even if Armenia's soldiers are there, it's unknown how much are they mixed with local soldiers, what's the ratio, who is subordinated to whom. Therefore, I believe "Armenian military control" is the most neutral, non-controversial.

My objection to "occupied" with respect to actual Azeri territories is that "occupied" is more judgmental than "controlled".

By the way, the current revert by El_C puts the intro back to its prior POV version and is unacceptable. The latest version is (with some variations) accepted by most users. Grandmaster, who has been blocked for revert warring, asked El_C to intervene () clearly because El_C's version has been the most pro-Azeri one (even more so than those previously offered by Grandmaster). I don't think it's appropriate for El_C to make such a sweeping unilateral change without being familiar with the issues and history of discussions here. To bring the intro to a more compromisable point, I think we should restore the prior neutral version.--TigranTheGreat 22:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Oy vey. NPOV is going to be difficult when things are that confused. --Golbez 23:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't then "Armenian military control" more appropriate? It contains the implication of both the local forces, and Armenia's military. "Control of Armenian Military" sounds too much like Armenia's army.--TigranTheGreat 00:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with NK article is that it still diverges with the NPOV of the international community and real unbiased facts. The so-called "NKR" has to be preceeded by either self-styled, or unrecognized or so-called as is the norm (I've cited a dozen or so varied sources that clearly show it's the norm). Again, this is not a wish or some nice suggestion -- this is the standard terminology and is consistent with other Wiki pages (see Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, etc. pages), and hence must be implemented. Meanwhile, in order not to mention any of these 3 choices preceeding "NKR" then it itself should be replaced with simply "NK", and instead of "government" it should be "authorties", which is again consistent with the language and terminology used by authoritative publications and sources, of which Wiki considers itself as well. The term "NK authorities" is also used by all, including official Armenian, US, UN and OSCE sources, thus no one can object: , , , , .

Then, the sentence "predominantly Armenian population declared independence" leaves one thinking that perhaps some Azerbaijanis have stayed and joined those Armenians in proclamation of "independence". Instead, it should say that only the Armenian population declared independence -- and clarify what happened to the Azerbaijani population, which was ethnically cleansed from NK and are now all refugees/displaced. This is also a must, since NK, as all of Karabakh and all of Azerbaijan belongs to the people who have traditionally lived there -- which includes a very sizeable Azerbaijani population, which was in majority until the begining of 20th century, yet still even in 1989 was sizeable.

A surprisingly reasonable statement, I'll try an edit. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Then, while it is a nice mythology, where is the proof that "Tsakh" is Armenian for Woods, "Ar" is abbreviation for Aramanyak? It is false -- "tsakh" does not mean woods (or forest, as some also allege) in Armenian! Moreover, since after I've reminded that the area was called Orchistene/Orkhistene, and Armenian users have further improved it by adding the Urartean name of Urtekhini, then Artsakh definitely cannot be from not-yet-existing Armenian language -- whether modern (since 15th century) or ancient, grabar (since early ADs), especially since Armenians are not autohtonous to the Caucasus and have invaded later, in the waning years of Urartu, and took over their culture, some vocabulary, etc. But what is clear is that Artsakh simply cannot be an Armenian name -- it is a modern-day attempt by some Armenians to do what Russians describe as "force smth by its ears". Therefore, this explanation "from Armenian language" unless our Armenian friends can provide a dictionary showing that "tsakh" means woods or forests, and not the word "brush". And of course, it would be nice to see how did ancient "Ar/Er/Ur" suddenly became Aramanyak! Maybe Armanyak (Armagnac), the brandy/cognac producing region in SW France, is also land of Armenians? What about Saskatchewan in Canada? --AdilBaguirov 08:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition, as already said many times, saying "under the control of the Armenian military" or otherwise using the word "control" instead of "occupation" is total POV - despite what some might think and others wish, international law, terminology and standards are clear, and clearly specify occupation. Whilst some sources, mostly media, do not see much difference, they do not apply in our case, since 1) everyone here clearly understands the difference and 2) this is an encyclopedia, which means more precision, more research and more neutrality and unbiasness. In addition to all other sources I've cited before, here are some more from international media, NGOs, and some governments that clearly use the factual and precisely defined term "occupation" instead of more vague and attempt to conceal the situation, and thus POV, "control": , , , , , , , . The word "control" should be replaced with the internationally defined and precise term of "occupied". --AdilBaguirov 09:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is about compromise, and to me, it seems "control" is a perfectly valid compromise word. By trying to force "occupied", you are inserting a particular NPOV, whereas "control" has no POV at all, from how I see it. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the leader of the Azerbaijani community of NK must be mentioned, Mr. Nizami Bakhmanov, and his portrait, like that of Ghoukasyan, should be provided too. He participates in relevant sessions and meetings of the OSCE Minsk Group, and his signature is also on the 1994 cease-fire agreement. He is the head of the executive power of Shusha region. --AdilBaguirov 09:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, mention him. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, not that it makes a world of difference (re: your question: "if the Armenian military is in actual control of Nagorno-Karabakh, or merely - at least in word - assists the local self-proclaimed NKR military") since occupation is occupation and doesn't matter if assistance is 100% or 50%. What matters is that the world community have recognized it as military occupation, and have refused to recognize the so-called "NKR" with Azerbaijan not only refusing even a thought about legitimizing the Armenian occupation, but hinting without any double-speak that it has full right to start the liberation campaign at any time, that patience of Azerbaijan is not indefinite and that the current massive reforms and weapons procurement of the Azerbaijani army are aimed for one purpose -- if the peace talks will fail in the next few years, then military solution will be the only left, unfortunately. Meanwhile, all experts know that the assistance of Armenia to the occupation effort is total and the fact that both Kocharyan and Sarkisyan are President and Defense Minister/Security Council Chief respectively of Armenia, whilst being leaders of NK separatism a decade ago, as well as reported parading of T-80 tanks and S-300s in NK, that were given only to Armenia, make it abundantly clear. If you monitor press, then you will see that each time there is shooting on the Line of Contact, it is generally either Defense Minister of Armenia, Sarkisyan, or the Chief of Staff of Armenia, Harutunyan, who give interviews, explain, claim, make threats, assessments, etc., and not "president" Ghoukasyan. However, just to satisfy your curiosity, here are either neutral or Armenian reports that shed a lot of light on just how well "integrated" the NK units are with the Armenian army:

What matters is what is accurate, not what the "world community" says. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"The Army of Karabakh is deeply integrated with the Armenian military, and the unrecognised NKR state depends on the Armenian army to ensure its survival as an independent national entity. Armenia considers any act of aggression against Karabagh as an act of aggression against itself."

"Physical abuse and poor conditions plagued the Armenian army, resulting in the deaths of several conscripts. They include the death on April 7 of Vahagan Alaverdyan, an eighteen-year-old resident of Yerevan drafted into the Armenian army in November 1997. Alaverdyan’s family stated that they identified him at the Khojaly Military Hospital in Nagorno Karabakh, covered with extensive bruises on the chest, stomach, and back. They further accused officers and other members of the military unit in which he served in Nagorno Karabakh of beating him to death. The Armenian government routinely denies that it conscripts troops and requires them to serve in Nagorno Karabakh."

"Jehovah's Witness conscientious objector Armen Grigoryan faces a six year jail sentence, after his illegal deportation from his own country, Armenia, and his refusal to do military service in the unrecognised Nagorno-Karabakh republic, Forum 18 News Service has learnt. But Armenia's Human Rights Ombudsperson, Larisa Alaverdyan, denied to Forum 18 that Grigoryan had been deported. "You can't call it illegal deportation – there's no such term. I'm a specialist on this. Perhaps it might have been illegal removal from the country." She defended what she claimed was the right of the Armenian Defence Ministry to send Armenian citizens to Nagorno-Karabakh, which international law regards as part of Azerbaijan."

"Seda Mkrtchyan watches news of the war in Iraq and thinks of conflict closer to her home in the Pokr Vedi village of the Ararat region. ... It has been more than five years (February 1998), since Seda's only son, Armen, disappeared from his regimen while encamped in the Martakert region of Nagorno Karabakh. He had been called to service 10 months earlier, and his letters home were mostly optimistic about his life as a conscripted soldier." --AdilBaguirov 10:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, Wiki policies and policies of international bodies are not the same. Wiki is not UN spokesperson. Under the policy of Misplaced Pages, we use neutral words--for example, even if someone is terrorist, we say "militant." Similarly, we say "control", not "occupation."

Also, under Wiki naming conventions, we use internal names--if someone or something calls itself this or that, we adopt that. NK calls itself NKR--we use that. These rules are clearly explained in Wiki policies. There should be links from your user page--follow, it's easy to find.--TigranTheGreat 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I note that "NPOV" does not mean "offering all points of view" - it means "offering a neutral point of view", one that I think has been offered here. Statements of fact without judgment. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

So why then the fact that NK is a de-jure region of Azerbaijan was removed from the intro? Grandmaster 21:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It already says "noone recognizes NK's independence." If that's what de jure means, it's already there. We shouldn't repeat things more than once in the intro.--TigranTheGreat 22:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it doesn't say conclusively the other way, that it's internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. We say it's a region in the borders of Azerbaijan, then say it declared independence from Azerbaijan - neither statement conclusively saying that it was part OF Azerbaijan beforehand, and is recognized as such today. It may seem like a subtle, minor point, but if it helps cool the dispute, then I'll try it. --Golbez 22:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. --Golbez 22:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, thanks for the explanation, but it does not differ from what I say, since the position of internatinal community is NPOV - there is no other way. Wiki cannot be avoiding terms like "terrorist" -- it has pages on Terrorism, on Terrorist organizations, etc. So while there are some disputes about some, there are no disputes about others, and we have to call them by their true names. That's the objective of any encyclopedia - to be precise and objective and neutral, which means the position of the international community. As of "internal names" - NK is in Azerbaijan, and hence the internal name is what's used by Azerbaijan. Moreover, no one is opposing specifying dual names. --AdilBaguirov 21:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, what the "world community" says is what's objective - or are you trying to say that you or Tigran are more objective than UN, OSCE, PACE, OIC, US President, US State Department? The NK page must be consistent with other similar pages, whilst taking into account its lower legal status in USSR than Abkhazia, for example, and absense of borders with anyone, thus being fully inside Azerbaijan. These are all facts, that make a lot of difference and should be all reflected. So once again, as much as one might try to downplay or otherwise pretend they don't care, the position of international community is the most important, as that's the collective opinion of experts with advanced degrees and far more experience than anyone of us here. And certainly international law exists far longer than anything else you can cite in return. Thus, once more, this is a requirement - NK page must conform international law and norms. --AdilBaguirov 22:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

What the world community is certainly not objective. It is the opinion of the world community. For example, is Taiwan independent? The world community, as embodied by the United States, the United Nations, etc., would say no - it's part of the People's Republic of China. But as we all know, it has been de facto independent for decades. They are not being objective, they are pandering to politics. I am saying I'm more objective, certainly, than the United States President and State Department, as I am not beholdent to politics. --Golbez 22:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, the intro already states NK declared ind. from Azerbaijan, noone recognizes it, and its' within borders of Azerbaijan. I don't think we should repeat the same idea twice in the intro.--TigranTheGreat 22:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but look at it this way - we say what the international community does NOT recognize. We should also say what it DOES recognize. Again, seems like a minor point, but I think it will be useful, and maintains NPOV. It changes things from passive to active. --Golbez 22:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez: "Yes, but it doesn't say conclusively the other way, that it's internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. We say it's a region in the borders of Azerbaijan, then say it declared independence from Azerbaijan - neither statement conclusively saying that it was part OF Azerbaijan beforehand, and is recognized as such today. It may seem like a subtle, minor point, but if it helps cool the dispute, then I'll try it."

I think if we make extra clarification of "part of Azerbaijan," we should make the same about "de facto independence." They both go together. But, I am against both--we mention pure facts speak for themselves, we let readers infer.

The intro makes it clear that it *was* part of Azerbaijan--USSR set it up as part of Azerbaijan, and NK declared independence *from* Azerbaijan.

As for "currently *is* part of Azerbaijan," you don't think "noone recognizes its independence from Azerbaijan" means "they recognize it as part of Azerbaijan?"--TigranTheGreat 22:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

look at it this way - we say what the international community does NOT recognize. We should also say what it DOES recognize. Again, seems like a minor point, but I think it will be useful, and maintains NPOV. It changes things from passive to active. --Golbez 22:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I think it's simply unbalanced to say that "int. comm does recognize nk as part of Azerbaijan" without clarifying that it's "de facto independent." After all we could argue "it says NK declared independence, but doesn't say that now it IS de facto independent."

Second, you don't think saying what the international community does NOT recognize actually tells the reader what it DOES recognize?--TigranTheGreat 23:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but - for the third time now - if it cools the POV issue, then it's a good thing to add. However, I'm adding de facto to try to offset it, so let's see how that goes. --Golbez 00:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore the cooling of POV point--got it the first time. My objection was to the imbalance. It looks better now.--TigranTheGreat 00:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The international community does recognize NK as a region of Azerbaijan. UN SC resolutions refer to NK as a region of Azerbaijan, which means that UN recognizes it as such. So does the Council of Europe. The government of NK is considered illegal by the CoE, who formally objected to staging the elections in the region. According to the US State Department, the United States supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, i.e. it sees NK as part of Azerbaijani territory. As you can see, the international community recognizes NK only as part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

UNSC is narrower and less representative than UN--UN General Assembly never took explicit position. So, UNSC's position is not necessarily UN's position. As an example, Pres. Raegan (executive of US) admitted the Arm. Genocide. The US Congress (legislature) hasn't, so US hasn't.

US is not the "international community." US is pro-Azeri (due to oil, Turkey, etc.)--and as a perm. member of the UNSC--it's influence was clear. In General ASsembly, it had less influence.

Council of Europe's position is your interpretation--never explicitly said "NK is part of Azerbaijan.

In sum, we state pure facts and let readers infer.--TigranTheGreat 08:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, the attempts to revise and misinterpret the position of international community are deplorable - why would you deliberately confuse and provide unreliable info? First off, only UN Security Council resolutions have the status of an international law and are mandatory - General Assembly is, to borrow from you, advisory. However, General Assembly did take position on the issue and has recognized NK as part of Azerbaijan, on several occassions, see for example , , , and especially on the "elections" in "NKR" and . To even try to claim otherwise is funny. Meanwhile, since when did US become "pro-Azeri" - with much more aid given to Armenia, with Sec. 907 against Azerbaijan, with the second largest embassy in the world being in Yerevan, it shows that US, especially the Congress, are very much leaning more towards Armenia due to its money and lobbyists, who can hire lawyers to write up empty reports like the one by New England School. Yet US is international community -- it is a very important member of it. But aside from US, many other countries have explcitly recognized NK as part of Azerbaijan -- both during voting in UN GA and at the level of their MFAs or Presidents, for example here are a few statements from Ukraine and . Same thing of Council of Europe/PACE - there is no interpretation, there is a clear position that NK is part of Azerbaijan, talks about "two communities" of NK, "occupied territores", "separatist forces", etc. --AdilBaguirov 11:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Economy

This article really needs a section on Nagorno-Karabakh's economy, which I'm sure is very stunted due to the war, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. --Golbez 16:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

And yes, I actually have high hopes this could become a GA or even FA. Barring possible POV issues, it's really shaped up quite well, though it still has a ways ahead of it. --Golbez 23:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the article is well referenced and very promising. Hopefully if Grandmaster adopts a more flexible stance to new additions and changes, we can all have a real breakthrough in improving the article.

I think the first place to look for economy would be the official NKR page (www.nkrusa.org) itself. If course we could state that it's from NKR page to make it more POV.--TigranTheGreat 07:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Golbez. There’s absolutely no way this article can make it to GA or FA status. The current intro, introduced by you and Tigran without discussing it with other interested parties reflects exclusively an Armenian POV, and articles with POV problems cannot have a featured status. I’m restoring the POV tag, which was repeatedly removed without any explanation. You cannot remove the tag until the dispute is resolved. And its not just me opposing your changes, Adil never supported them either. Also I have a question to Golbez. Would you be so kind as to explain why you reverted the original intro, which was restored by EI C? That intro was made by a consensus of the users, the current one has no consensus, still you repeatedly revert to it. You say that you are impartial, if so, why do you support one of the sides of the dispute and completely ignore what the other side says? Why do you oppose to restoring the status quo and agreeing on changes before making them? Thanks in advance for your answer. Grandmaster 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no "exclusive Armenian POV" here. You keep saying that, without explaining why. Is it the controlled vs occupied bit? Or the lack of "self-proclaimed" everywhere in the article? Or what? I hope I'm not repeating a question that's been answered, but I hope you can understand with the volume of talk on this page that I may have missed an answer, but can you cite a specific POV issue you have with the intro? I would say I am far more impartial than you. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I’m not saying that I’m impartial. But you removed the fact that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. It’s a fact that was in all the versions of intro. What is your problem with that? Grandmaster 21:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

One, it matches the other regional separatists articles. Two, if you accept that the region is de facto independent (which I think most of us do), then how can it also be "a fact" (i.e. "de facto") that it is also part of Azerbaijan? --Golbez 21:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It is de-jure part of Azerbaijan. I hope you are not going to argue with that? Grandmaster 04:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not. --Golbez 07:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Why then this cannot be reflected in the intro? De-facto and de-jure normally go in conjunction. Grandmaster 07:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The "status exists only in de-facto form" makes it clear that de-jure it's not independent. "Not recognized by Int. comm" hammers it even further. We don't need to keep hammering the point. Keep in mind that de-jure is a legal term and open to interpretation by legal experts. We state pure facts here.--TigranTheGreat 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There was no consensus on the prior intro. Consensus means agreement, and as reactions of current users show, many didn't agree to it. It was blatantly POV. People sometimes move on to other articles, and leave an article alone--doesn't mean they agree to it. Before the prior intro, there was another version opposed by you that existed for a while. You can't just pick one "status-quo" version over another one that was status-quo at another point. The criteria is whether something is neutral.

Well put, there is disagreement, therefore there is no consensus. QED. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

What does QED mean, Golbez? By the way, here is an official page on the NKR economy, from the NKR site: http://www.nkr.am/eng/facts/economy.htm. We can work from there. --TigranTheGreat 01:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

QED, quod erat demonstratum. It's a phrase used to show in mathematics that the result required for a proof to be complete has been attained; in other words, it's when you prove a proof. There is no consensus because there is disagreement, the statement proves itself - you can't disagree with consensus, because by the existence of the disagreement, there is no consensus. I probably used QED incorrectly, but I liked it. ;) --Golbez 03:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian language

Armenian POV is "NK is independent." That's not what the intro says. The current intro is purely factual, without any loaded objectionable words. There is absolutely nothing POV about it.

Adil claims that no Armenian language existed before 400 AD. He clearly has POV stance, and his dispute cannot be regarded as genuine.--TigranTheGreat 20:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, I don't claim anything - I state facts, and it seems you unable to disprove them. Instead, Tigran, you seem to misinterpret information and puting words in the mouths of some historians, like Strabo. That's a no-no. I've said what I've read from Armenian sources - which is that ancient Armenian language was formed in the early ADs. In fact the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, edited by an Armenian, and written by several Armenians, makes it clear: Grabar (Ancient Armenian) was formed in 5th century AD. Middle Armenian - from 11-17 cc. Modern - since 17 century, which in 19th century becomes even more modern. Same is confirmed by another authoritative book and . Thus, please stop projecting your own image onto others and do not make baseless, groundless accusations that are so frivolous that make one wonder the real intentions. --AdilBaguirov 21:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, just because a few ignorant users "disagree", doesn't mean there is no concesus. Neither NK page nor Misplaced Pages can be held hostage by a few motivated users who base their incalcitrant and meritless positions not on internationally recognized, approved and voted documents (smth known as "international law", which is mandatory for everyone) but on frivolous claims. Armenian POV is not just "NK is independent", but also "NK is part of Armenia", and derivatives from it. Meanwhile, the international law -- that is NPOV -- is clear that: NK is militarily occupied, NK is de jure part of Azerbaijan, NK is ethnically cleansed of Azerbaijani population, NK is self-styled/unrecognized/so-called. There are NPOV and I've given dozens of citations as proof. --AdilBaguirov 21:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, please refrain from using insults. International law (unlike domestic law) is not mandatory for states (except when it's in a treaty) much less for private organizations like Wiki. It's a nebulous concept.

There is nothing in your sources saying that Armenian language didnt' exist before 5 c AD. They say "Literary Armenian language" didn't exist before, which is right--Armenian alphabed was invented in 405--before, Armenians spoke Armenian, but wrote in Greek. There is noone seriously claiming that Armenian didn't exist in BC centuries.--TigranTheGreat 22:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, you don't know many things, and among them that UN Security Council resolutions automatically become international law once passed, and are mandatory. UN SC resolutions clearly recognize NK as part of Azerbaijan, and that it is, along with other regions, being militarily occupied and its Azerbaijani population expelled. They are of course currently taken into account in the NK page, which is good, but the page must be brought in conformity with the NPOV wording used by international organizations.

As of Armenian language -- instead of trying to argue and each time having to change your position after realizing that I am correct, I suggest you give us a source where it contradicts the one's I've provided -- when was Grabar invented? Meanwhile, you are wrong again and misreading once more - the Great Soviet Encyclopedia says: "История литературного Армянский язык делится на 3 периода: древний, средний и новый. Древний — с 5 по 11 вв. Язык этого периода называется древнеармянским, а язык письменных памятников — грабар." Which means: "History of literary Armenian language divides into 3 periods: ancient, middle and new/modern. Ancient - from 5th till 11 century. The language of this period is called ancient Armenian, whilst the language of written monuments/works -- Grabar." So there you go. One more proof of that is what Movses of Khorene said (Book I, Chapter 3), where he in more details describes how Armenians before his age were not interested in literature and sciences, and were primitive, even "stupid and barbarian/wild" (his words). --AdilBaguirov 23:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually know quite alot. UNSC resolutions are mandatory only when passed under chapter 7 (this is explained even on the Wiki page on UNSC). An example is the resolution demanding Iraq to leave Kuwait. Other resolutions, including the NK ones, are merely advisory.

There is nothing in the source saying that before 5th c there was no Armenian. It says the language using in 5-11th c was ancient Armenian. Doesn't say that ancient Armenian didn't exist before. You are suggesting that Armenians started speaking Armenian only after creating an alphabet, which obviously is not true.--TigranTheGreat 23:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, the peculiar understanding of everything and seeing white as black and vice versa is noted. Per UN SC on NK, they are not "merely advisory". Then, once again, the sources on Armenian language are clear and I am 100% correct. Meanwhile, you have been unable to bring any credible source showing diverging view point or factual statement, which is not surprizing in light of the above. Yes, grabar started to exist only in ADs -- otherwise such ancient people as Armenians -- what was it, 4,000, or 5,000 years old? -- would have left smth in Pahlavi or Aramaic or smth other script, in which (proto-)Armenians obviously were able to write, but they didn't leave anything in other scripts in either grabar or some other mysterious ancient-ancient Armenian. Nothing. Which makes sense -- Armenians did not rule themselves, they were ruled by Parthians, Persians, Atropatena, Georgians, Jews, and others since BCs. And majority of population in cities for example in Tigranes II era were not even ethnic Armenians. Likewise, the whole story about Artsakh the way is written on the NK page is false, as is the understanding and reading of Strabo by yourself. --AdilBaguirov 23:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Your insistence on violating civility rules is noted as well. UNSC resolutions on NK are indeed advisory, otherwise we would see armies marching to NK--as in the case of Kuwait. I don't need to provide a source that Armenian existed before 400 AD, since you havn't given any source stating otherwise. Armenians didn't write in Armenian before that because they had no Armenian alphabet--Aramaic script is not suited for Armenian. They tried it in 400 ad, didn't work, so they created a new alphabet.

So are you saying that Strabo does not place Arsakh in Armenia?--TigranTheGreat 00:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Shahumyan

Golbez, I think the Shahumyan paragraph should state, in one form or another that "the Shahumyan district, in a joint decision with NKAO, declared its independence from Azerbaijan and the establishment of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic on September 2, 1991, joining the NKR." Otherwise, it sounds like NKAO first declared its independence, then claimed an outside territory.

See, for example http://www.nesl.edu/center/pubs/nagorno.pdf (the analysis by New England law school, mentioned in the Int. Status section): "the joint decision of the NKAO and Shahumian district to declare the establishment of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic on September 2, 1991"--TigranTheGreat 00:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the joint declaration: Joint session of the Nagorno Karabakh Oblast and Shahoumian regional councils of people’s deputies with the participation of deputies of councils of all levels

I also think the NK map should have the borders of the NKR, including Shahumyan--it's information and useful in the article. Golbez, you are good with photo programs, if you could add it, it would be great. Here is the map of the NKR--shahumyan is the top one: http://www.nkr.am/eng/map.jpeg.--TigranTheGreat 01:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact the whole mentioning of former Shahumyan should be removed as advised before -- it was neither part of former NKAO, nor were there any legitimate basis for that claim (or for "NKR" declaration of independence for that matter), nor is it occupied by Armenia, nor did that region have a Parliament or even council. There are many declarations of independence in absentia - for example, the Republic of Goycha and Zangezur . --AdilBaguirov 03:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, we should have an article on that! --Golbez 07:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The source is dubious--I mean we don't even know whether they declared it while in Armenia, or outside--the page says "it is claimed that it was declared." It's not an official site of this "entity."--TigranTheGreat 08:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, based on the links helpfully proviced by Tigran, we really should mention it, though I'm not yet sure how. However, Tigran, I would really love links other than that singular declaration. I have no proof, for example, that anyone from Shahumian was actually involved in that (according to the ethnolinguistic map (uh oh), that region should be majority Azeri, so I don't know who is joining NKR here), and I would like ... not a verification, since that does appear to be an official document, but ... an independent telling of events? I guess what I'm saying here is, the only source I have for the Shahumian thing is the NKR declaration of independence - I'd like a separate report/document/story about it. --Golbez 07:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

In Misplaced Pages, we include information, not exclude it. Someone interested in the issue would want to know what are the borders declared by the NK declaration. Especially an Azeri reader. Wouldn't you guys want to know "what is the exact land claimed by those freakin Armenians?" :) Be honest--TigranTheGreat 05:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is it Golbez. Two PDF files.

The Background Paper on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict prepared by Directorate General of Political Affairs of the Council of Europe

On 2 September 1991 the Regional Councils of NKAO and of the Shahumian district (on the Northern tip of N-K) proclaimed a new state - the N-K Republic. http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc04/EDOC10364APPENDIX.pdf

The Nagorno-Karabagh Crisis: A Blueprint for Resolution A Memorandum Prepared by the Public International Law & Policy Group and the New England Center for International Law & Policy

The actions of the USSR Constitutional Oversight Committee did not, however, annul 'the joint decision of the NKAO and Shahumian district to declare the establishment of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic on September 2, 1991, since that declaration was deemed in compliance with the then existing law. ( The April 3, 1990 "Law of the USSR Concerning the Procedure of Secession of a Soviet Republic from the USSR," http://www.nesl.edu/center/pubs/nagorno.pdf

I read the second one, it seems rather tilted towards the Armenian side. Perhaps with cause, perhaps not, I'm just saying. As for the first one, that's useful, thanks. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the borders of the NKR as declared by the NKR government, I think the official NKR page should suffice, since the caption says that it's the borders as declared by the NKR government.

We should also specify on the map which part is NKAO.

I think that's established by the text; I'm also considering adding the official Line of Control to the map. Sigh. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, to explain why you see no Armenians there--in June 1992, Shahumyan region, along with 40% of NKR, was taken during an Azeri offensive. All Armenians were expelled. In a few months, Armenians took all of the land back except Shahumyan. It was after that that they went on taking 20% of the surrounding Azeri lands.

Also, as the 1st paper correctly states, the region of Nagorno-Karabagh, or mountainous Karabagh, includes the areas of Shahumyan (which is mountainous) and NKAO. Karabakh includes Mountainous Karabakh and the lowlands to the east. --TigranTheGreat 08:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, but it wasn't part of the NKAO, hence part of the current confusion. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That first link is very interesting, actually, and supplies what appears to be a very neutral and comprehensive take on the issue. Good stuff. I particularly liked this line: "Comment: Depending on the viewpoint taken on ancient history, N-K can probably be seen as traditionally either Armenian of Azerbaijani land – or both." --Golbez 08:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, you still have not answered, why the intro does not mention NK being de-jure part of Azerbaijan? And also, the dispute has not been resolved, why did you remove the tag without even asking our opinion? Grandmaster 09:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"De jure" goes with saying "independence is not recognized". Now, the difference is, when we say "independence is not recognized," that means it's de jure part of Azerbaijan, but it says nothing about its de facto status - it could be both de facto and de jure part of Azerbaijan. Which is why we then need an additional comment on the de facto status. Making a further comment about the de jure status seems to be doubling up - "It's unrecognized, AND it's part of Azerbaijan!" Put the notice back if you like, I removed it only in good faith, but I must insist specific complaints be made. I thought the de facto/de jure issue had been resolved, I apologize if it had not, you can understand that this talk page is long and convoluted. --Golbez 09:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem, that’s why I asked you. I have no doubts you did it in good faith. Please see the way BBC describes the status of the region: Status: de jure part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, unilaterally declared itself an independent republic in 1991. Now I think the first line should reflect the current status, de-jure part of Azerbaijan, de-facto under the control of separatists and Armenia. Grandmaster 09:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition, here are some interesting news related to de jure recognition of NK as Azerbaijan's: Amnesty International: PUBLIC STATEMENT AZERBAIJAN: Journalist detained in self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic -- a blow to freedom of expression. Thus, anything negative that happens in the occupied territories, also gets placed in Azerbaijan folder, which however unfortunate, shows responsible approach taken by such a well-known NGO consistent with international law and obligations. --AdilBaguirov 11:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro 2

Golbez, the intro has become way too confusing and complicated. It also overstates the "part of Azerbaijan" point while completely downplaying the de facto independence (buried in the end, and reduced to "de facto status" only). I still think the best way to avoid it is to remove loaded words both de facto and de jure, and stick to pure, undisputed facts.

De jure is a legal term--anything to do with law can be interpreted. There are legal experts who agree that NK is not part of Azerbaijan under international law (as the "International Status" section mentions). That's what the Int. Status section was originally created for--to present the points on this issue. "NK is de-jure part of Azerbaijan" is therefore one position (whether majority or minority, it's irrelevant--we don't adopt positions here).--TigranTheGreat 12:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved de jure down, though I disagree that it belongs at all. I think that, at this point, including either the de facto or de jure status in the first sentence is non-negotiable, as it simply creates strife. Furthermore, I don't think we should say that it is recognized de jure as part of Azerbaijan - I would not be surprised if there were many nations around the world who did not care one way or another, and had no specific recognition of it as part of Azerbaijan. However, we DO know that no one recognizes the independence. OK, that epiphany is going in the article. --Golbez 19:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The biased "legal experts" who write paid-for analysis cannot and will not be put on the same level as UN, PACE, OIC, OSCE, State Department, and other authoritative international organizations and institutions. The latter's position is unequivocal, clear and not subject to interpretation -- NK is part of Azerbaijan and is occupied. So the current intro is the best compromise between hiting all the points about both de jure/de facto, independence yet unrecognized due to being part of Azerbaijan, etc. There are many more essential undisputed facts that could be included, such as ehtnically cleansed entire Azerbaijani population from NK; preceeding each mention of "NKR" with the necessary "self-styled/so-called/unrecognized" disclaimer; military occupation instead of control; that aside for most of NKAO's proper also 7 regions are occupied; but as a compromise, it is not being included in the intro. --AdilBaguirov 12:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Adil. There’s not a single country or international organization that disputes NK being de-jure part of Azerbaijan. The opinion of private persons is different from the opinion of international community and cannot be considered equal to it. If some law school came to a conclusion that NK is not a de-jure part of Azerbaijan, this opinion cannot be given weight equal to the position of the entities, recognition by which is required to become an independent state. It is a fact that NK is internationally recognized as a de-jure part of Azerbaijan, and this fact should be reflected. Grandmaster 13:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually this is wrong, many if not most do rather refer to it as a disputed territory 'officialy' recognized as part of Azerbaijan. This was the problem if you remember correctly. Claiming it is part of Azerbaijan is also claiming somehow that it has no de facto independence, both are contradictions. Because I can claim it is independent, it depend what point I am taking more into consideration, while the term officialy tell us that officially indeed it is recognized as such, but it is de facto independent. And we already discussed about de Jure part, it is far from being encyclopedic, since there are various publications that dismiss the legality. They even dismiss the changing of vote which resulted to its transfer, calling it illegal. Fad (ix) 14:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back GM. First of all that's not disputed and nobody has said that it should not be reflected. The dispute surrounds the fact that the 100% de facto independence is not stressed enough and that it should be the primary sentence in the intro. Cyprus exercises more control over TRNC than Azerbaijan does over NKR yet the articles looks very different.--Eupator 14:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

TRNC is a de jure recognized entity, and its leader Mehmet Ali Talat met with both UN Sec. General Kofi Annan and US Sec. Condoleeza Rice. Who met with Arkady Ghoukasyan aside from President Kocharyan? So this rests the case of international legitimacy. Moreover, what "NKR" are we talking about -- Cyprus, especially the Greek one, has a vibrant economy, tourism, banking -- whilst "NKR" is being depopulated (even according to its own "census"), constant shooting on the Line of Contact and every year increased threat of resumption of mass-scale warfare, all making sure that neither any type of legitimate economy, nor civil population could sustain? Let's be real here. Meanwhile, what is de facto "independence" for some, is also a military occupation for all others, which keeps being reaffirmed by the international community from day one until now -- just days ago OIC Sec. General reaffirmed once again that NK is part of Azerbaijan and is occupied. And of course there cannot be "de facto" without "de jure" usage -- encyclopedia's are an academic and scientific publication, that require precision and spelling out of important terms, conditions, etc., where "important" means whatever is important for the international community and authoritative organizations, is certainly important enough for Wiki. --AdilBaguirov 16:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Recognized entity doesn't mean a thing, because according to the same logic so is Karabakh, it recieves monatory funds independently from both Azerbaijan and Armenia, including the US has a different package for Karabakh.So recognizing some entity is a very vague concept. What matters is if TRNC is officially recognized as a state by the international community, the answer is no. So it is not much different than Karabakh. Fad (ix) 18:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, GM and Adil, but we don't dismiss one position and adopt another. Armenia says it's not legally part of Az. NK says the same. There are legal experts saying the same. If there is a dispute that it's de jure part of Az, we can't assert it.--TigranTheGreat 15:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, we are not asserting anything - we state real and legitimate facts, not twisted opinions. Indeed, it is those who try to equate Armenia's POV position to the NPOV of the international community, which includes both sovereign countries and institutions, are trying to assert things, dismiss legitimate and only correct position. Meanwhile, per continuation of the claim about UN General Assembly never taking a position on NK, Armenia itself accepted and recognized the fact that the Nagorny Karabakh region is a part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, having unconditionally joined the consensus in adopting, for instance, General Assembly resolution 49/13 (1994) entitled “Cooperation between the United Nations and the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe”, paragraph 8 of which reads as follows:

"Fully supports the activities of the Conference aimed at achieving a peaceful solution to the conflict in and around the Nagorny Karabakh region of the Azerbaijani Republic and to alleviate the tension between the Republic of Armenia and the Azerbaijani Republic"

In addition to this explicit recognition of NK as part of Azerbaijan by Armenia, the Armenian Prime Minister Armen Darpinian also signed the Baku Declaration in 1998, which also clearly specified NK as a region of the Republic of Azerbaijan. He did get a lot of heat for that back in Armenia, though. --AdilBaguirov 17:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

We are not talking about positions, we are talking about facts. NK is a de-jure part of Azerbaijan, it is a fact, acknowledged by the whole world. Armenian separatists and folks in some legal school may think otherwise, but it does not change the fact that NK is recognized only as a region of Azerbaijan. So this fact should be stated in the intro, and opinions are reflected in the text. Grandmaster 17:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Can any veteran explain to Grandmaster that words such as 'facts' 'proven' are alien to Misplaced Pages? I have attempted to explain him this for months and he still refuse to listen. I already referred to Universalis the French encyclopedia which refers to it as a disputed territory. As long as it is recognized as disputed by various groups, words like 'it is a region of' is POV. On the other hand, it is officially recognized as part of Azerbaijan, but there is a clear contradiction between 'being' with its de facto statut. De Jure is a very strong word, and I disagree with it, it has used a relevant Soviet law to declare its decision after a referundum, a law also referred here in Quebec by some when requesting a recognition based on such a referundum. Also, words like the Jure are problematic in international law, because the decision to allocate Karabakh to Azerbaijan was the result of a changing of vote of one man after he took the decision. We are not jurists here, even if we were, it would not change a thing since there are many that do question the legal legitimity of Karabakh by Azerbaijan, we already discussed here. Also, I thought the exclusion of the word de jure was settled. Fad (ix) 17:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, we are not jurists, we are not experts in determining whether under the law a region is independent or not. For example, NK seceded in accordance with Soviet law--Azerbaijan SSR seceded, and NKAO had the right to secede from SSR, before SSR was recognized as indep. Azerbaijan. Hence, by law, it's not part of Az. That is the position of NKR, Armenia, and reputable legal experts. Maybe others have other positions. We don't take positions.--TigranTheGreat 17:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

So what if someone refers to it as a disputed territory? We report facts only, the fact is that NK is legally recognized only as part of Azerbaijan. Opinions of some people or entities are just opinions, but the position of the international community is a fact. To become an independent state a certain territory needs to be recognized by independent states and accepted to international organizations. Since this has not happened and the region is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, NK is not a state and is de-jure nothing but a part of Azerbaijani territory. If we include de-facto, we should include de-jure as well, because every entity has two aspects, de-facto existence and legal existence. Sometimes these two don’t match, as in the case with most self-proclaimed entities with no recognition. So this is what the lead should reflect, that NK is legally part of the country it tries to break away from and that that country has no effective control over that territory. I think both sides should accept these facts, which is hard to do, but we have to if we want to put an end to this dispute. I actually thought that this dispute was over long ago, but it looks like it’s gonna go for many more months. Grandmaster 18:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Btw, Fadix, who told you that “words such as 'facts' 'proven' are alien to Misplaced Pages”? I just want to know the source of your information. See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability:

One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. Grandmaster 18:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the relevancy of even discussing with you, when after months and thousands of words of answers have gone to be simply waste. 'FACTS' are 'de facto' entities in Misplaced Pages, and only terms recognized as facts are names, things which no one could reject(like the sky is blue) and perhaps mathematical equalities. The de facto independence of Karabakh is recognized by everyone. De Jure is rejected by many, Karabakh consider to be de jure independent, Armenia does not recognize it as part of Azerbaijan. I have already told you that in the French press the term 'disputed' was used, and Universalis encyclopedia prefer this word. You can not decide which position is the truth, Misplaced Pages does not take position. I already told you that I have no problem with 'officially recognized as a region of Azerbaijan.' But bogus terms like De Jure are simply misleading and POV. You aren't disputing its de facto independence, while I dispute its de Jure statu as being part of Azerbaijan. It used legal means under Soviet Laws, it can answer back and claim De Jure independence. Also, you are misunderstanding 'facts' as 'truth' and facts as relevant materials. If I write a paper with the results of a study, I publish the results I have obtained, the facts are that I have obtained those results. Or facts as in, if someone say A, I report that indeed he/she said A and not B. This is a representation on the accuracy of presenting each positions. But what you are requesting rather is facts as in truth. And this is in contradiction with the NPOV policy. Fad (ix) 18:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

NK being de-jure part of Azerbaijan is a fact such as the sky is blue. One can dispute that the sky is not blue and this opinion can be reported, but it does not change the fact. If NK is not recognized as an independent country, and is recognized only as a part of Azerbaijan, it is still legally part of Azerbaijan. No one can deny that it is not recognized internationally in any capacity other than a region of Azerbaijan. Not a single international organization disputes this. Opinions of some mass media cannot change it. And the term de-jure is used in other similar articles in Misplaced Pages. You can dispute the de-jure status of NK as part of Azerbaijan as much as you want and so can do all the law schools in the world, but as long as NK is not recognized internationally as an independent country it is irrelevant and does not change the its legal status. And what is your problem with stating that NK is a region of Azerbaijan? You seemed to agree with that before. Grandmaster 18:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't complicate things Grandmaster, many have in the past tried to reasonate you on why de jure is not applicable, if you are seriously comparing this with the sky being blue, I don't give much worth to your comprehention of the NPOV policy. The blueness of the sky is associated with a wave in the spectral range and established as such. Karabakh on the other hand is a disputed territory, its statue is disputed while officially recognized as within Azerbaijan, 'de jure' is a taking of position, facts can not apply when applying a legal concept, and no one that I know of acting as an outsider from the past to now as I have witnessed has accepted that term to be OK as an encyclopedic article. Karabakh recognize itself as de jure independent and this de jure independence it recognize is not recognized, this has as much worth as claiming that Azerbaijan recognize it as de jure a part of itself. Also, it does have a partial recignition, it has its own network, registered in the World bank and its government is given the ligeitimity to manage the international fund. One can not equal an official recognition with a de jure exclusion, it is its de jure independence that is not recognized and not only a position, it being de jure part of Azerbaijan on the other hand is simply an opinion. Like I said hundreds of times, I don't make the rules. Fad (ix) 23:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, NK is not really a disputed territory, but an occupied territory. Disputed is Kashmir - and officially denoted as such. NK is militarily occupied and separatist -- and also denoted as such. Also, Karabakh does not "recognize itself as de jure independent" - this is complete abomination of the terminology, facts and logic, and an insult on the intelligence of the people here. I do not have to go too far to disprove this play of words, just look at the website of the "Office of the Nagorno Karabakh Republic" in US: "The presence of the office in the US capital enabled us to significantly raise awareness of the legal aspects of Nagorno Karabakh conflict and to work on de jure recognition of our independence from Azerbaijan" --AdilBaguirov 00:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, you hit it right on the nail--that's PRECISELY what I have been saying all this time. We know that noone has recognized NK's indepence. We we don't know if every single one, or even the majority of 200+ countries have taken an explicit position of "NK is part of Azerbaijan." As you said, maybe they don't care. I will give you another reason. Maybe they refrain from taking a explicit position for fear of affecting the negotiation process. Here is an example of what I mean.

There was this British parlamentarian named Atkinson. He prepared a report for PACE on NK. The report was widely regarded as a very pro-Azeri document. It talked about "NK being part of Azerbaijan" etc. Russian ambassador Kazimirov criticized Atkinson for deviating from neutrality, and jeopardizing the negotiation process. There was a heavy lobbying by both Azeris and Armenians regarding the adoption of Atkinson's report by PACE. Guess what--when PACE adopted a resolution based on the report--there was no explicit mention of "NK is region of Azerbaijan." They talk about general principles of "territorial integrity" and "self determination," they call NK's forces "separatist forces" etc--in other words they are dancing around the issue, carefully avoiding a mention of "NK is a region OF Azerbaijan."

In sum, saying "International Community recognizes it as part of Azerbaijan" is unsupported statement based on insufficient evidence. Most countries could be avoiding taking a direct position.

Oh by the way, links to most of the documents mentioned above are in the article. Kazimirov's objection was in British journalist De Waal's article which I linked in the Archives. GM should remember it, otherwise I will dig into the archives to find it.--TigranTheGreat 05:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

So what? Kazimirov is a private person, whose opinion has not much weight, plus his bias is obvious, everybody knows who supports separatism at the territory of former USSR. PACE resolution still calls “NKR” separatist forces (i.e. forces who try to separate the region from Azerbaijan), which means that they support territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, otherwise they would call them something else, like legitimate government. And Council of Europe considers the elections in the region illegal, i.e. “NKR” is illegal to CoE. And the reference to 200+ countries is not really relevant. Each country can express its their disagreement at the UNO General Assembly or otherwise, even by recognizing “NKR” as an independent state. Since that is not happening, NK is still legally part of Azerbainjan. Grandmaster 05:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

So is Atkinson's bias (obvious). I can reverse your argument and say "If PACE really wanted to take a position and say that NK is part of Azerbaijan, it would say so, just like UNSC resolutions did. Since it didn't, it does not take such position." In sum, you are making your interpretation of words used by PACE.

Kazimirov has been a Russian ambassador and Russia's rep in the OESC peace negotiations. I am not saying his opinion is fact, I am just saying the very existence of that opinion shows that there may be motivations behind not saying "NK is part of Azerbaijan"--TigranTheGreat 06:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It’s just your interpretation that the PACE resolution does not say certain things. Calling “NKR” separatists is equal to supporting the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. If it was not so, they would have chosen more subtle wording. And also, there’s a difference between Atkinson and Kazimirov. The former is an official Rapporteur, the latter is just a private person. You try to give equal weight to official positions and positions of nobodies, while they don’t have it. The position of states and organizations is one thing, and position of private law schools is another. The same is with the position of an official Rapporteur, who was entrusted to make a report, on basis of which the official resolution was passed, and the position of a retired Russian diplomat. Grandmaster 06:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Please tell me, Tigran, which country or international organization officially disputes that NK is part of Azerbaijan and recognizes its independence? Position of private persons is irrelevant to the status of NK. Grandmaster 06:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wait a second - Amb. Kazimirov accused British PM Atkinson of bias?! Wow! Look who is talking - the most notorious and biased of all Minsk Group negotiators, who constantly visits, speaks and publishes in Armenia, attacking an MP who doesn't have a horse in the race and is clearly unbiased and neutral (why would PACE be biased in favor of Azerbaijan, really puzzles me). PACE bases its position on UN - simple. --AdilBaguirov 08:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Answering your question below in the "Current Version" segment. The discussion is getting too segmented.--TigranTheGreat 20:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil

I seriously get the impression from your chats that you would prefer if all mention of the NKR were removed from this article, including its self-declared independence. Am I correct? --Golbez 19:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, I do not mind any mentioning as long as it's balanced. Why do you think it is fair to mention "NKR" 10 times, but precede it with "so-called/unrecognized/self-styled" only once? While I am not asking tit-for-tat, but if there was at least some symmetry, i.e, 3:1. The article is about Nagorno-Karabakh, and that's a land, which belongs to all people who have been born or lived on it, and which is historically part of any one country. Thus, why should it ignore all that and please only Armenian POV? Why can't it say de jure, occupation, ethnic cleansing, if that's accepted and correct terminology? Nothing of what I am asking -- I emphasize, nothing -- is based on wild unsusbstantiated claims. Everything is based on precedents, consistency, and international law and acceptance. That's how I approach all the other conflicts too -- such as Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, Transdniestr. --AdilBaguirov 00:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"Why do you think it is fair to mention "NKR" 10 times, but precede it with "so-called/unrecognized/self-styled" only once?" Because once we've defined it as such, we can trust the reader to remember what he read earlier in the article. --Golbez 00:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, it's a lengthy article and some people would read only certain parts of it. Also, what if we reverse the argument, and say, OK, let's define "NKR" only once, and use NK authorities, since we can trust the reader will remember and make the right judgement? --AdilBaguirov 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean about reversing it. As for people who only read part of it, that's not our problem, we cannot constantly repeat definitions because we're worried people will skip parts of the article. --Golbez 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, under Wiki policies, we use self-names instead of outside names when it comes to organizations or entities. There is a whole example of "skinheads" in Wiki policies. People call them skinheads, but we use "white supremacists." Same goes for your "separatists" objection--TigranTheGreat 05:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, what is the "self-name"? A self-name is what people of the land can call it, and did it occur to you that those people are not only ethnic Armenians, but Azerbaijanis. Per your white supremacists/skinheads example -- the official designation used in official government reports is generally "white supremacist groups". Since I advocate using the official language, your example is in agreement with the right way of approaching NK page, that is the official, internationally-recognized and applied terminology. --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The self name is what the entity calls itself. NKR calls itself NKR. You may advocate using official language, but Wiki advocates using self-name.--TigranTheGreat 20:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Current version

The current wording “region within the borders of Azerbaijan” makes no sense, as I said before. If it is just a region within Azerbaijan without any connection to Azerbaijan, then why Armenian population was declaring independence? There are two aspects of such self-declaring entities, de-facto and de-jure, and they normally go in conjunction. You state one, you should state the other. And no matter what Armenian side thinks NK is still considered a territory of Azerbaijan, which is the fact that should be mentioned. Basically, the problem is how to say that it is legally part of Azerbaijan and effectively under the Armenian control without hurting anybody's feelings. Grandmaster 19:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Btw, maybe we should revive our old RfC: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Nagorno-Karabakh We are going in circles anyway, so why not asking the communities opinion? Grandmaster 20:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the problem is that whether "legally" (i.e. under law) NK is part of Az or not is matter of dispute among legal experts. If you can't touch it, feel it, measure or observe it, it's not a fact. To tell you the truth, the only real fact is that Azerb. has no control over NK--i.e. that it is de-facto independent.

AS to your "no connection to Azerbaijan"--come on, when we say "declared independence *from* Azerbaijan"--you think the reader is gonna say 'could it have been part of Mosambique?" It's clear that it was (de facto and de jure) part of Azerbaijan, then declared independence. Even more so, Golbez' latest reordering makes it even clear--the "NKAO PART OF AZerbaijan" is mentioned first, so the reader will never think of Mosambique.--TigranTheGreat 05:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, as prior experience with RFC's showed, there is virtually no interest in this article among the community. The voters were mainly either Azeri or Armenian. The number of outside voters was marginal. The reason I think is that the article needs much improvement--and we should really get over this intro and work on overall, constructive improvement of the article, so people will start showing interest in it--TigranTheGreat 05:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, it sounds strange that it is a region within the boundaries of Azerbaijan, that declared independence. If it is just a region within borders, why it was declaring independence? It is not clear from the first line, while it should be. Later explanations just make things more complicated. I will not support the current intro, unless it states the fact that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. It is a fact that the region was recognized as a region of Azerbaijan only, therefore it’s legally part of Azerbaijan. The opinions of legal experts have no value, they are just opinions and not facts. The fact that no one can deny is that the status of NK as part of Azerbaijan is not disputed by international organizations, who actually decide whether the region should be independent or not. Therefore it is part of Azerbaijan, until its independence is recognized by anyone at all. The first line should be restored to say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Noone says "it's JUST a region within borders." We explain that it was part of ASSR, declared independence from Azerbaijan, noone recognized. No confusion that it belonged to Mosambique. By the way, a statement like "until it's recognized as independent, it's part of Azerbaijan" is precisely a matter debated by international experts. Maybe it's true if Azerbaijan was always independent. In case of ASSR and NKAO jointly seceding from Soviet Union--it's less certain. You may think it's not--but again, it's your opinion, and by definition not a fact.--TigranTheGreat 05:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, opinion of experts is irrelevant, it’s just an opinion, the only thing that matters is position of states and international organizations. Only states and international organizations decide whether a certain territory would be an independent country or not, and not “experts”, who you can hire to say that the globe is square and not round. And the opinion of international community is very well known, Azerbaijan was recognized independent within the boundaries of former Azerbaijan SSR, and it is a fact that law schools cannot change. Since NK is recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it remains such until (if ever) it is recognized independent. Grandmaster 05:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Globe can be felt, measured, observed. Its roundness is factual. Legal issues are never factual. States have no monopoly over what legal terms mean. I agree, only states can recognize independence. But the issue whether such non-recognition automatically means recognition of a region within another country is a matter of legal discourse. So, the FACT is a state's recognition or non recognition of another state. An OPINION is about what such fact (in this case non-recognition) means.--TigranTheGreat 06:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

See Atkinson: The borders of Azerbaijan were internationally recognised at the time of the country being recognised as independent state in 1991. The territory of Azerbaijan included the Nagorno-Karabakh region. It is a fact that NK was recognized as part of Azerbiajan and remains such until is recognized otherwise. Grandmaster 06:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and atkinson was heavily criticized for taking a pro-Azeri position and affecting the negotiation process. Statements such as these were excluded from official PACE resolution.--TigranTheGreat 06:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact reported by Atkinson that Azerbaijan was recognized within the borders of former Azerbaijan SSR. He was not proposing to include it to the resolution, he was just presenting the background to the conflict. His bias is nothing but an opinion, he was entrusted with preparation of this report by PACE, and not Kazimirov, and for a good reason. Atkinson was criticized only by the Armenian side and Kazimirov, who had an obvious bias themselves. Grandmaster 06:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It was his opinion (and quite likely resulf of his bias)--it never made to the PACE resolution. Doesn't matter if he is an official person--he is British parlamentarian--one member of the Parliamentary Assembly. There are individual Congressman who say the Armenian Genocide happened, doesn't mean the whole congress recognizes it.

Earlier you asked who disputes that NK is part of Azerbaijan. Noone needs to dispute--they may just refrain from taking any position whatsoever for fear of affecting the negotiations. They don't recognize its independence, but they don't say it's part of Azerbaijan as well.

"Separatists" in PACE resolution could have the purpose of saying that NK's independence is not recognized. Again, if they wanted to go as far as UNSC did, they would actually state "NK is region of Azerbaijan." Not once is that simple phrase mentioned in PACE resolution.--TigranTheGreat 20:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, Tigran, it’s not an opinion, it’s a background information, collected by his commission, and it says that Azerbaijan was recognized in the boundaries of former Azerbaijan SSR. And he never proposed to include that information into the resolution, so it never was rejected. Also PACE resolution supports the resolutions of UNSC, and those resolutions as is known refer to NK as a region of Azerbaijan. And Atkinson’s bias is not a proven fact, but just an opinion of the Armenian side, not supported by any credible source. Also, non-recognition is a position too, if NK is not recognized as independent, it remains a region of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, statements made by Atkinson in the "background info" is "information" as he sees it--which by definition is his position. You may be right that "region of Azerbaijan" was never mentioned in PACE since Atkinson never proposed it, but again you may be wrong--they may have done it to refrain from taking a position. We will never know, all we know is that not once does the resolution state "region of Azerbaijan." If it doesn't, any inference is an interpretation of the language of the resol., and hence an opinion.

Non-recognition is a fact. It is a fact that "noone recognized NK's independence"--it is something that can be observed. Saying that this fact implies that "everyone recognizes it as part of Azerbaijan" is an interpretation, hence an opinion. Which excludes the possiblity that, as Golbez said, most states might not care.--TigranTheGreat 07:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Tigran, everybody sees it the same, it’s just you in denial of facts. See Britannica:

Nagorno-Karabakh

Britannica Concise

Region (pop., 2002 est.: 144,300), southwestern Azerbaijan. It occupies an area of about 1,700 sq mi (4,400 sq km) on the northeastern flank of the Karabakh Range. The region was formerly part of Iran but was annexed by Russia in 1813. In 1923 it was established as an autonomous province of the Azerbaijan S.S.R. In 1988 the region's Armenian majority demonstrated against Azerbaijanian rule, and in 1991 (after the breakup of the Soviet Union) war broke out between the two ethnic groups. Since 1994 it has been controlled by ethnic Armenians, though officially it remains part of Azerbaijan.

Grandmaster 10:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Map

Oops, I did it again. Updated map, lemme know your thoughts. --Golbez 22:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a good map, Golbez, nice job. Color names might be abit gay (just kidding :) What is fushia anyway?).

The only objection is the "disputed region of Shahumyan."--I think it's misleading, creates impression as if NK already is an independent state, and Azerbaijan and NK are fighting only over Shahumyan. There is nothing disputed about it--Azeris never dispute that it declared independence from Azerbaijan jointly with NKAO, Armenians never dispute that it's ethnically cleansed from Armenians and under Azeri control. I think it should say "the shahumyan region, claimed by NKR, is in pink"

I also think the "NK is green" should be replaced with "former NKAO is in green,"--I think it gives useful clarification to the reader as to what former NKAO looked like.--TigranTheGreat 05:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, unlike the bulk of the former NKAO, Shahumian has never been de facto part of the NKR, only de jure (de jure part of an entity which does not de jure exist, heh). As for fuschia, I realized it was more maroon. :P --Golbez 05:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not part of NK, neither de-facto, nor de-jure. If something does not exist de-jure, how can another region be a de-jure part of it? Grandmaster 05:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Funky, isn't it? Yet the proclamation of the NK Republic mentions it, so IMO the map should reflect this. As for "de jure", yes, from everyone's point of view except the NKR, it's not de jure part of the NKR, but from the NKR's perspective - they can have de jure stuff within their own sphere of influence - it is. I think, also, that we are heavily overusing the terms "de jure" and "de facto". --Golbez 06:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, it was de-facto part of NKR between December 1991 and June 1992. I mean "disputed" is itself inaccurate, since the whole region is disputed. What's wrong with "the shahumyan region, claimed by NKR while currently under Azeri control, is in pink" It's purely factual.--TigranTheGreat 06:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Check out my current caption. --Golbez 06:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

De-facto under Azerbaijani control sounds very bad, it is not only de-facto, but also de-jure under Azerbaijani control. I think it should be made as brief as possible. Grandmaster 06:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster here. "Azerbaijani control" is better.

Good, cuz I removed it around the time y'all made that statement. :) --Golbez 07:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, I have a suggestion about reducing the length of caption. Instead of saying saying "The whole NKR is Shaumyan plus NKAO", why not draw the overall border claimed by NKR and just state it in the caption? It's standard practice in maps.--TigranTheGreat 06:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I could, but how would I delineate it? Just have a thicker line? Though I would still have to explain it, due to all the different colors involved. --Golbez 07:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran - Azerbaijanis very much dispute that Shaumyan region "declared independence from Azerbaijan jointly with NKAO". First, because it was impossible under the laws of the time or now -- how can a region declare independence? Do you imagine the City of Glendale in Los Angeles, or City of Watertown in Massachussets declare "independence"? Second, even if we assume for a second that there was such a legal right -- then there is no protocols left, no minutes, nothing! Armenians are unable to produce any documents about either Shaumyan region or that of NKAO voting and declaring smth. Third, the Azerbaijani population was not consulted, was ignored -- and that's a violation of people's, citizens, rights. Fourth - it is not "ethnically cleansed from Armenians" - if you refer to Ring, then it expelled several Azerbaijani villages too, and secondly, Armenians still live there as citizens of Azerbaijan (and they still live in Sumgait too, and in Baku). Thus once more, if Shaumyan declared some independence, then definitely so did Zangezur and Geycha in Armenia. --AdilBaguirov 08:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the matter of Geycha and Zangezur is irrelevant to this article, and I've already said we should have an article on it. As for "how does a region declare independence," what do you mean? My state declared independence twice, once from Britain and again from the United States. The first one took 6 years to be recognized, the second one never was. Regions can and do declare independence all the time, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I was, however, hoping to find out more about it than the simple statement that it did - I too would, for example, like to know WHO declared independence from Shahumian. Who were the representatives that supposedly declared they were joining with the NKR, etc.? Was this backed up by a referendum? One of the major aspects of the NKR is that they held a referendum (yes, boycotted by Azeris, but it was held nonetheless), but I've heard nothing of the sort from Shahumian. The only links we have so far are the statements that Shahumian declared along with the former NKAO, but I have no corroboration of this. (Back to the United States example - I direct you to Conch Republic and Killington, Vermont)

The Shahumian issue seems to me to be, the folks of the former NKAO held a referendum for independence, then some representatives from Shahumian (or maybe it was only NKAO folks) said they were declaring independence as well, but as far as I know, there was no referendum, no individual declaration... basically, the only proof I have of Shahumian being part of the NKR is in the NKR's declaration and the COE's info document, nothing more. The first one has no source for the Shahumian party, and the second one is a secondary reference. Also, I note that the "political divisions" section is the ONLY one where Shahumian is mentioned - clearly, if it's part of the self-declared NKR, it should be mentioned at least in 'history' and 'current situation', yes? Basically, I still see it as "claimed but not administered by the NKR". I have not seen anything that tells me that a majority population, or majority of government leaders, of the southern Goranboy region declared independence. I don't know WHO did, that's the problem. I apologize for my rambling, it IS 5 am. --Golbez 09:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's alright, but Golbez, Shaumyan region was not an equivalent of any single US State -- US states have their own parliaments, flags, constitutions, army (National Guard), articles of accession to the Union, legitimate foreign (trade) representation, and have a right to succeed from the United States (well, in theory). Neither NKAO (which had of these only its own council, not parliament, unlike for example Naxcivan), nor especially former Shaumyan region had any of this. Instead, in terms of administrative and political rights and attributes, Shaumyan can be compared to a U.S. county, not country/state. This is quite important of a distinction. In other words, imagine St. Sarkis Armenian Church and its county in Charlotte, NC, declare "independence" from the rest of NC or USA - this would never be reported in encyclopedia's, instead in comic sections of local papers. Remember what happened to the successionists in Waco, Texas, in 1994 or so -- they declared themselves as president, ambassador, etc., of the Republic of Texas of 1848 (and at least Texas was an independent country at that time), but were all unceremoniously shot and killed by FBI, all shown on TV for any other potential "successionists" to take note. US did what either Soviet or independent Azerbaijan was unable to do, US never got criticised for this legitimate action, and yet all Texas successionists have more historic rights and political basis for their actions than anyone in either ex-Shaumyan or ex-NKAO. --AdilBaguirov 10:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet we still mention the new Republic of Texas. --Golbez 18:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, per Conch Republic and Killington, Vermont examples -- if the law of the land allowed them to do it, then what's the problem? Even if it didn't or they bent the limits of the law, they were still legitimate municipal, local authority, which was democratically elected, and can produce all records, such as minutes, voting records, roll-call, etc. Neither ex-Shaumyan nor ex-NKAO correspond to any of that. Also, USSR Supreme Soviet rebuffed ex-NKAO, as well as Armenia, and rejected those proclamations, stating firmly that NKAO is a region of Azerbaijan and has to remain as such. --AdilBaguirov 10:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, the CoE document clearly states that "On 2 September 1991 the Regional Councils of NKAO and of the Shahumian district (on the Northern tip of N-K) proclaimed a new state - the N-K Republic. http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc04/EDOC10364APPENDIX.pdf

So, the legislative bodies of both areas declared independence. It is in the Background Paper prepared by Directorate General of Political Affairs of CoE. So, it is a reputable source. The sentence about Shahumyan and NKAO declaring independence is therefore sourced and I believe should be restored.

By the way, the only reason Shahumyan is under Azeri control is due to the movement of the military line--it moved quite alot during the War--Azerbaijan still controls some villages in NKAO itself.--TigranTheGreat 20:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Who was this legislative body of Shahumian, though? Did the NKR-forming referendum include voters from Shahumian? I guess that's my question - we know the folks in the NKAO had a referendum, but did the folks in south Goranboy? --Golbez 21:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The Regional Council, as the quote states. They did hold a joint referendum with NKAO, but I am not sure we need to verify that. The removed sentence simply stated that "Shahumyan district and NKAO declared independence." That part is cited. IT didn't say "they both held referendum." So, the statement itself is cited.

By the way, about referendum, the CoE paragraph says:

"Validity of referendum. On 2 September 1991 the Regional Councils of NKAO and of the Shahumian district (on the Northern tip of N-K) proclaimed a new state - the N-K Republic. On 10 December 1991, a “referendum” on independence took place. On 6 January 1992, the “Parliament” of N-K officially declared independence."

I think it's clear from that the referendum was all over the NKR territory. If only NKAO held referendum, it would specify it. Instead, the paragraph says that both Shahumyan and NKAO declared it, and then referendum took place.--TigranTheGreat 21:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's a good quote and I like the fact that Tigran deems it reputable - it puts both "referendum" and "Parliament" in quotes, and that's how it should be done in Misplaced Pages too. Thank you Tigran! Meanwhile, once again Shaumyan region could not have declared anything, it had neither legal means or authority, or even sufficient Armenian population, who were in minority. Here's a good quote from "Black Garden" of Tom de Waal, that Tigran also seems to like: "He even used the phrase "all the population of Karabakh" when talked about the referendum. So what about the Azerbaijanis? Did he make no effort to consult with them or ask their opinions? Muradian's gaze hardened at this question. "Do you want to know the truth?" he replied. "I will tell you the truth. We weren't interested in the fate of those people. Those people were the instruments of power, instruments of violence over us for many decades, many centuries even. We weren't interested in their fate and we're not interested now." (p. 21) --AdilBaguirov 23:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This week

I met an Armenian girl in Oslo, she was from Baku, but left with her parents shortly before the collapse of the USSR. She doesn't speak Armenian, but she speaks Russian, Azerbaijani, Norwegian and English. She was telling me how she had an Azeri girlfriend but they split up. Interesting world it is. - FrancisTyers · 11:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Typical story of NK war. There are hundreds of thousands of people with similar stories on both sides, many of them lost their friends or family members. Such is the world we live in. Grandmaster 11:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There are up to 30,000 Armenians, according to US State Department and other diplomatic sources, living in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja, Sheki, etc., even today, with them and their children working in good places, from media to science, from oil to government (there are no Azerbaijanis left in Armenia or occupied territories of Azerbaijan aside from a few old people from mixed marriages). There are many joint ventures and businesses between the two peoples in countries like Russia. Thus life continues and people value relationships and human qualities. If there wasn't military aggression, occupation and ethnic cleansing, it would have obviously been far better. --AdilBaguirov 15:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, many Armenians don't make themselves known that they are Armenian in Azerbaijan. They too are the result of the mixed marriages. Also, Francis, the reason she doesn't know Armenian is because they were never taught Armenian. I spoke to an Armenian women from Baku, Azerbaijan in the United States and she too only spoke Russian with me because Armenian was never taught in Azerbaijan, much less Nagorno-Karabakh.--MarshallBagramyan 16:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You've been greatly misinformed. Perhaps that woman became a US citizen/resident by claiming unexistendpersecution and has to keep on doing that all her life unless she wants to be criminally charged for lying to INS/BCIS. Armenian language was taught, Armenian radio was and still is available, newspapers were published (e.g., Sovetakan Karabakh in Armenian), and in case of former NKAO the whole teaching process was in Armenian in many schools and at university, not to mention other details, like the head of NKAO was Armenian, many ministers were Armenian in Azerbaijan SSR. Some of this info you can read at the NKAO article in Great Soviet Encyclopedia . In Baku and other cities today everyone knows well who is Armenian - so how would those Armenians make themselves unknown is not clear. Meanwhile, no Azerbaijanis remain in Armenia, all are refugees, none were allowed to occupy any prominent government posts, there were no schools or universities teaching Azerbaijani, much less conducting the whole teaching process in Azerbaijani. --AdilBaguirov 22:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Kindly provide sources for your mythological insinuations, actually show me one, just one Armenian that currently lives in Baku... Here's an Azeri in Armenia named Felix Aliyev . There are many others. I thought you said there are no Azeris in Armenia? I guess that was just like evrything else you claim.--Eupator 23:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

By now, everyone should have realized that I never make any mythological insinuations - I leave that to others, who never cease to amaze me. I will show you not one, not two, not three -- or even a dozen or so ethnic Armenians I know myself in Baku -- but up to 30,000 that I already mentioned! Here's the US State Department: "Ethnic Azerbaijanis have fled areas of the country controlled by ethnic Armenians, and mosques in this area not already destroyed did not function. Animosity toward the Armenian population elsewhere in the country forced most Armenians to depart, and all Armenian churches, many of which were damaged in ethnic riots that took place more than a decade ago, remained closed. As a consequence, the estimated 10,000 to 30,000 Armenians who remained in the country were unable to attend their traditional places of worship." I hope this satisfies the genuine curiosity arising from massive misinformation and misrepresentation about Azerbaijan that you and Tigran and Fadix, Marshall, etc., have been subjected by some unidentified Armenian women. --AdilBaguirov 23:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Same source: Some Armenians and persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent complained about being unable to register their residences, find work, and get access to medical care and education due to their ethnicity. The approximately 30,000 citizens of Armenian descent complained of discrimination in employment, schooling, housing, and other areas. They also complained of workplace discrimination and harassment and of the refusal of local authorities to pay pensions. Most shielded their identity or tried to leave the country. Some changed their nationality, as reported in their passports. Authorities revoked some Armenian widows' permits to live in Baku. In September, the Government denied entry visas to three foreign citizens of Armenian ancestry on the grounds that the Government could not guarantee their safety in Baku. Some persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent continued to occupy government positions. Public figures whose parents reportedly were of mixed-Armenian and Azerbaijani marriages, or had such marriages, were attacked publicly by colleagues in the press.

So it appears there aren't any Armenians after all. There are some of mixed descent and those that are Armenians hide their idnetity!--Eupator 23:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting conclusion - it says 30,000 Armenians, yet Eupator says "it appears there aren't any Armenians after all". also note that "Some persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent continued to occupy government positions". As of the rest, it is a human rights report -- it obvously will list violations and allegations. This is just 1% of the report. The rest 99% talks about violations of rights of ethnic Azerbaijanis in Azerbaijan - because once again, it is a human rights report. Same as in Armenia, where same violations occur everyday, and indeed more, as Parliament speaker and Prime Minister with others get gunned down in the Parliament building in the middle of the day, or Presidential bodyguards beat an Armenian to death in cafe Poplavok for shouting at President Kocharyan. So there are up to 30,000 Armenians, and they experience the same problems as their non-Armenian neighbors and friends. Which can't be said of Armenia -- where aside from a hundred token Azerbaijanis, who are all old, there is no one left. --AdilBaguirov 00:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, you think a Soviet Encyclopedia is going to reveal oppression of a minority inside Soviet Union? Or any other form of opression for that matter?

Every Azeri village in Armeni had a school teaching Azeri. There were Azeri officials--I actually know the Assistant Minister of Education--his name was Sharifov.

Armenia has always respected the rights of its Muslim minorities, Kurdish or Azeri--even more so than other countries. For example, the first Kurdish language radio was set up in Armenia.--TigranTheGreat 23:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Opression GSE will not show, but GSE will reveal various facts that are being supressed or twisted nowdays, such as the fact that Armenian language was taught, newspapers, radio was available, etc. And that's what was questioned. Not a single Muslim Kurd remains in Armenia -- all were expelled and had to run to Azerbaijan along with 200,000 Azerbaijani refugees. Is that the respect of rights of Muslim minorities? --AdilBaguirov 23:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You've been greatly misinformed. Perhaps that woman became a US citizen/resident by claiming unexistendpersecution and has to keep on doing that all her life unless she wants to be criminally charged for lying to INS/BCIS. No, don't make unsubstantiated charges without knowing what you're talking about. She has been living in the United States for only a brief time, her English is near non-existant and she legally immigrated from Russia. Her Armenian is non-existant because she wasn't taught Armenian while living in Baku and Karabakh. And she, among a few others I have met who are from Azerbaijan, can only say a few broken fragments in Armenian until concluding our conversations in Russian. I mean, what do you think were the major complaints by Karabakh leaders in 1988? They were that they weren't taught, like Armenians living elsewhere, the Armenian language and alphabet, that there was no Armenian television broadcasting. Implementing all these for Armenians living in the NK were one of the concessions offered by Gorbachev in an effort to compromise with Armenian leaders.--MarshallBagramyan 04:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In Baku back in Soviet times everybody spoke Russian, including Azeris. I myself finished a Russian school. There were Armenian schools in Baku, but they were not popular with Armenians, who preferred Russian language. And it was not only Armenians, many Azeri people also preferred Russian, because without good knowledge of Russian you could not make a career in the Soviet system, so people tend to send their children to Russian schools. Grandmaster 05:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

De-facto under Azerbaijani control

I think that the intro should say De-facto under Armenian control. It does not matter how it sounds but on the reality of the situation, this is an enclopidia and not a Public relations firm. Please keep all political POV outside. 69.196.164.190

Er, huh? It's not de facto under Azerbaijani control, and no one anywhere disagrees with that. You seem to not know what "de facto" means. --Golbez 19:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I meant Armenian 69.196.164.190

Oh. Uh, it does say it's under Armenian control. --Golbez 02:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Better wording could be in accordance with CIA World factbook:

Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan Grandmaster 10:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

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