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Current disputes

Khojaly Massacre

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Khojaly Massacre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
• Urartu TH (talk · contribs)
• Divot (talk · contribs)
• Antelope Hunter (talk · contribs)
• Ninetoyadome (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have a disagreement with Urartu TH about the inclusion of Human Rights Watch death toll estimates into the infobox. HRW, which conducted a thorough investigation of the tragedy, writes: "While it is widely accepted that 200 Azeris were murdered, as many as 500-1,000 may have died". Urartu TH believes that the infobox should contain only the lower estimate of 200, as the higher numbers in his opinion are not realistic. In my opinion, we cannot censor the source like that, as it is not up to us to engage in WP:OR and decide what is and what is not a reliable estimate. I believe that we should stick to whatever HRW says, with proper attribution of citations, in accordance with WP:VERIFY, i.e. the infobox should say "200 - possibly up to 500 - 1,000" in the part that cites HRW. Grandmaster 15:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Another point here is, that if we include into infobox only the lower estimates of HRW, this would create a false impression that HRW does not consider higher estimates to be plausible. That is certainly not the case. Grandmaster 23:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion at talk of the article

How do you think we can help?

By providing opinions

Summary of dispute by Urartu TH

User Grandmaster has been attempting to change the casualties portion of the infobox on the Khojaly massacre article. This user is in dispute with myself, Divot and Antelope Hunter in this matter. We wish to keep the status quo as it represents what has been the consensus for some time. Grandmaster is attempting to add a controversial figure (500-1000 casualties) which is mentioned only ONCE in a footnote on page 24 of (http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/a/azerbjn/azerbaij94d.pdf). This speculative and highly dubious figure is already noted in the body of the article.

The figure is clearly an offhand comment and its inclusion in the infobox meets neither Misplaced Pages standards of WP:UNDUE nor WP:NPOV. The upper-end figure of 1000 that Grandmaster wishes to include is one that not even the government of Azerbaijan (a biased party in regards to the issue of the article) uses; they themselves claim 613 casualties. The "footnote figure" is found no where else in any document and is merely the speculative musings of one HRW scribe in one single footnote. It should not be given the same weight as casualty figures we know to be true, such as the 161+ casualty or the 200 casualty figures. The article involves a highly controversial and sensitive topic along with articles about all the other massacres during the Karabakh war on both sides.--Urartu TH (talk) 10:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Divot

1. According Azerbaijani government - 613 people
2. Accordin Tom de Waal - 485 people
3. According HRW - 161+ people
4. In the comment HRW wrote "While it is widely accepted that 200 hundred Azeris were murdered, as many as 500-1,000 may have died"

The last comment have a blunder. "200 hundred Azeris" means 20.000 Azeris. Again, 1000 is an obvious exaggeration, no one source use this figure.

So, according Neutral point of view (Balancing aspects) we can use in principle this figure in the topic, but, of course, not in the Infobox, where we must use reliable figures, not dubious speculations, like 20000 or "possibly up to 500 - 1,000" victims. Divot (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Antelope Hunter

As already stated, the number 1000 is speculative and not even the Azerbaijani government claims such a high number. It falls under WP:Due and should be kept out of the article. --Antelope Hunter (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ninetoyadome

I actually have no opinion on this matter, you guys can make a decision if you like. Ninetoyadome (talk) 18:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Khojaly Massacre

We'll wait another day to see if Ninetoyadome would like to also make an opening statement and then we can proceed with discussion. Thanks for your patience, for remaining civil and avoiding personal comments. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ninetoyadome has said he/she is neutral on this issue and would like to leave it to others to decide. How would the remaining participants like to proceed?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe Grandmaster has received answers to his inquiry in regards to this dipuste. There is clearly a consensus in leaving the status quo intact and NOT including the speculative figure Grandmaster was attempting to add into the article; to reiterate, it is in violation of WP:UNDUE amongst other rules.--Urartu TH (talk) 21:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

No, I haven't received any answers yet, and no, there's no consensus. Of the involved editors, 1 neutral, 2 support inclusion of the whole range of HRW estimates, and 3 against. That is far from consensus, plus consensus is not formed on the basis of voting anyway. And I do not see what WP:UNDUE has to do with this at all. At this point, I'm not so much interested in the opinions of the previously involved users, as we already know what each of us thinks. I would rather like to see the opinions of third party editors, a fresh look. Something like an RFC or 3o. Grandmaster 23:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Brandmeister was not involved in the discussions about the speculative figure before the DRN. Therefore, of the four editors that were involved besides yourself, 3 are against and 1 is abstaining. This is enough of a consensus.--Urartu TH (talk) 00:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The massacre is in my watchlist and in response to my post at the talkpage it seems like Urartu TH has nothing against having HRW's upper bound of 1,000 in the article's body. I'm fine with it. Brandmeister 08:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Well then I guess we have a full consensus now against. I personally also think it should be removed from the body, but I suppose that's another matter since this is about the infobox.--Urartu TH (talk) 08:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

If I may contribute my humble opinion, regarding the infobox, the 500-1000 estimate is not reliable enough. It does not matter whether editors find the estimate reliable. HRW says "may have died". "May" indicates that it is plausible but not reliable. As a side note, it would help the readers if the link to the report were in the reference. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll

WP makes its decisions based on 'rough consensus', not votes. However, sometimes a straw poll is useful to clarify which way participants are leaning. With this in mind I'd like to ask User:Grandmaster, User:Urartu TH, User:Brandmeister, User:Divot, and User: Antelope Hunter etc. to vote on Grandmaster's proposal for the infobox only.

• Current text: Deaths 161+, or 200 (Human Rights Watch) 613 (Azerbaijan claim)
• Proposed text: Deaths 200 (possibly up to 500 or 1,000 per Human Rights Watch) 613 (Azerbaijan claim)

Please vote below. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. As mentioned by most editors, the 500-1000 figure is extremely speculative and unsubstantiated; plus it's already mentioned in the body of the article.--Urartu TH (talk) 22:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. With the same success we can give speculative "20,000 victims" from the same comment. Instead of this I propose to give de Waal's 485 victims. Divot (talk) 22:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Support. Censoring the source is not something that we can do according to the rules. And I think we cannot ignore the rules even if a certain number of editors is in favor of doing that. I would still like to see third opinions, if that is possible. Grandmaster 10:11, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Support either As long as HRW's 1,000 estimate is mentioned in the article's body and Azerbaijani estimate in the infobox, I'm fine with it, but I don't mind putting that HRW estimate in the infobox either. Brandmeister 11:06, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. as Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship (WP:VALID). The same source by GM clearly says: "it is widely accepted that 200 hundred Azeris were murdered". Footnotes are secondary additions to the main research/report. The reliable results of any research must be represented in the main text with further explanations. A footnote is not a "thorough investigation". Lkahd (talk) 11:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Speculative and unsupported claim. Per Urartu TH. --Antelope Hunter (talk) 11:42, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks to all those who participated in the straw poll. I think its valuable for everyone, no matter what your position on this issue, to have an overview of where all the participants stand on the issue at the time of the poll.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Another way to approach this issue

According to WP:INFOBOX, an info box is described as "A quick and convenient summary of the key facts about a subject, in a consistent format and layout". To my eye, the current text in the infobox is too long, is ambiguous and uses the word claim which creates bias. Given the fact that there are several sources with different figures, wouldn't it be better to say in the infobox:

• Deaths: sources vary

and then let the reader make his own assessment when he/she reads the article? Or even better, why not leave the Death category out of the infobox altogether? Is this a possible compromise?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. The infobox should only give substantiated and reliable information that is at least roughly corroborated/agreed upon by experts; it should not include any wild claims, especially those only found in one single document on a FOOTNOTE. I believe the "footnote figure" of 500-1000 should also be removed from the body of the article. The community has already spoken about this in the straw poll--the decision was entirely in Opposition besides Grandmaster.--Urartu TH (talk) 22:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Disagree The infobox should contain at least the definite number provided by Azerbaijan, perhaps also other definite numbers by reliable sources (as in the current version, which I do not oppose). However, I oppose the removal of HRW estimates from the article body, suggested by Uratu TH above. Brandmeister 14:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Brandmeister. The infobox should provide some numbers. The problem with presenting only the lower estimates of HRW for me is that it may create a false impression that HRW considers higher death toll estimates to be unreliable, which is clearly not the case. Also, to the attention of Urartu TH, straw polls are unbinding. And whether the number is in the footnote or not is immaterial. The rules say nothing about exclusion of information contained in footnotes. As long as it is in the source, we cannot ignore it, and removing it from the article altogether of course is not an option. Maybe a compromise way of putting HRW estimates into infobox would be 200+? Grandmaster 20:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In fact the HRW figure of 200+ is unreliable as well since it stems from a clear typographical/grammatical error: the document states "200 hundred Azeris..." We cannot know why this error was made and if they did in fact mean "200". The only reliable HRW figure is 161+. Azerbaijan's claim of 613--which is not based on any source or scientific methodology--should be included in the body of the article as they were a party in the battle of Khojaly. I propose going back to what the infobox used to look like, namely "Deaths: HRW 161+". As far as the figure in the footnote, we should clearly note in the body that it is entirely speculative.--Urartu TH (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course, none of that is acceptable due to the clear violation of all rules, in particular, WP:V, WP:OR, etc. And also, it is time to stop speculating around the obvious publisher typo in the footnote. On the same page just a few lines above HRW writes: "More than 200 civilians were killed in the attack, the largest massacre to date in the conflict". So clearly, HRW means that more than 200 Azeri civilians were killed, and the figure of 200+ is not debatable. Grandmaster 18:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Common ground?

OK, the idea of saying 'sources vary' seems to be unpopular :-) Looking at the results of the straw poll does anyone see any areas of common ground? Any place where we might be able to achieve some compromise through discussion? Any suggestions?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:48, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

"There are varying estimates of how many Azerbaijanis were killed in or near Khojali. Probably the most reliable figure is that of the official Azerbaijani parliamentary investigation, which put the death toll at 485" - Tom de Waal. "Black Garden : Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War", P. 171. Divot (talk) 18:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the figure by de Waal should also be included in the infobox. I said that at the talk of the article as well. Grandmaster 18:54, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

Futile. Significant participants have not chosen to take part. Since participation is also needed for a case to be accepted at Mediation, it would appear that about your only remaining venue for dispute resolution is Request for Comments. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Debian

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Debian (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 84.127.80.114 (talk · contribs)
• Flamingspinach (talk · contribs)
• Mthinkcpp (talk · contribs)
• Rwxrwxrwx (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I tried to introduce some changes, being discussed at the "Debian private practices and Debian Women activities" section in the talk page. Reverters oppose to these changes and refuse to discuss the reasons. Then I tried to break the changes to smaller pieces. That did not help. User Mthinkcpp is leading the opposition. There are other reverters, users Rwxrwxrwx and Flamingspinach at least.

I am trying to introduce some changes, being discussed in the talk page. mthinkcpp is presumably against all these changes for undisclosed reasons. It looks like Flamingspinach is in the same situation. Rwxrwxrwx mostly disagrees too. There may be other users against the changes. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Refusing to discuss is considered a conduct issue, so there are two threads in the incident noticeboard. I have been repeatedly advised to use content related resolution.

How do you think we can help?

I need a voice for the reverters in the talk page. Any neutral voice would help since there are no special technical requirements. It would help me to get back my bold/revert ability. I cannot propose the smaller changes nor revert to the status quo. A proxy user would be useful.

Summary of dispute by Flamingspinach

Summary of dispute by Mthinkcpp

These changes were applied to the Debian page. Parts were subsequently rejected due to being campaigning for a point of view. They were also wholly rejected for poor references; emails by a too closely affiliated individual, another (debian-private) did not back up the claims made, the bug report linked was written entirely by the individual expelled (therefore not an appropriate source). None of the above comes from reliable sources, and no reliable source was suggested by any editor (therefore presumably there isn't one, placing the validity of the material in doubt) - which makes it a policy violation to include the material, so it was rejected.

The material was not presented neutrally, and appeared to be designed to damage the Debian project (someone else's statement, I agree with it though), even if that was not the author's intention. An administrator looking into the matter (the individual who made the last statement, and a third party) determined that it was campaigning.

The consensus (given by those who have expressed a position) is against the edits, with only one supporter for them (the original author).

Summary of dispute by Rwxrwxrwx

Debian discussion

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Misplaced Pages Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution and Misplaced Pages:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Do not talk about other editors. In DRN cases where I am a volunteer, I have had a lot of success by keeping the discussion structured and dealing with one issue at a time. If anyone has a problem with this, we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Well said Guy. Thanks for taking this case.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I want to make clear that I will only discuss article content in this dispute case. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Since we will not talk about mthinkcpp's conduct and I do not want this discussion to be closed because of lack of participation, I expressly invite Flamingspinach and Rwxrwxrwx to participate. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 16:35, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Mthinkcpp has not edited Misplaced Pages since before this was filed, so we need to wait for his input before doing anything else. If anyone involved has not read our Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution and Misplaced Pages:Consensus pages, this would be a good time to do that. (No need to reply saying that you read it; we all need to do nothing until Mthinkcpp has a chance to respond) --Guy Macon (talk) 16:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

If discussion dies off, I can always go back and get myself reverted again to find (or refind) other interested parties. I can start adding the changes and revert my edits as soon as I see activity from mthinkcpp, since I am tracking this user's contributions. This would help the discussion about article content. May I proceed? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 17:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi IP 84.127.80.114, I understand your frustration, but intentionally edit warring just to get a reaction will not go over well with most Admins and you may find yourself being blocked for a longer time than before. I would suggest you leave diplomatic invitations on the user(s) talk page(s) keeping in mind that participation at DRN is voluntary. However, if content is in dispute then folks do have some responsibility to discuss on the article talk page. If they are just reverting and are not willing to discuss on the talk page then you can start a thread at WP:ANI and ask for advice or assistance after this DRN has closed. That would be my advice to you. Let's see what Guy Macon has to say.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I am ready to discuss the content. Should we start from the beginning? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Anjem Choudary Talk

Conduct, not content dispute. Per instructions, above, DRN only handles content disputes, not conduct disputes. Consider RFC/U or ANI for conduct disputes. - TransporterMan (TALK) 22:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Maryam Nawaz

Premature, no extensive talk page discussion as required by this noticeboard. Please thoroughly discuss your dispute at the article talk page before seeking help at dispute resolution, as all moderated forms of content dispute resolution at Misplaced Pages require substantial discussion as a prerequisite. You might also want to seriously consider the good advice given by neutral third party Pinkadelica at your article talk page. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:40, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

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