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Revision as of 08:43, 14 March 2014

14 March 2014

Jews and Communism

Jews and Communism (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I request deletion of this article.

The vote for deletion was 22 in favor, three to merge into other articles, and 14 to keep, The administrator closed the discussion with "no consensus". The administrator erred in dismissing the consensus that the lack of neutrality in the article was irreparable and erred in saying no one could say the topic was not notable. In fact sources were provided that no comprehensive study of the subject had ever been undertaken. The administrator also said that there was no consensus that the article was a POV fork, although many editors said it was, and few disagreed.

TFD (talk) 05:55, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• The way this article was originally constructed in tone and purpose it read, and essentially still does read, more like an "indictment" and "blame sheet" that would make the Jew-hating Jew Watch proud, rather than as a well-balanced presentation of a factual why and how things came to be. Having been one of those that suggested this article be merged into History of Communism, in light of the recent surprising "no consensus" decision I have recently tried to edit certain sections for a better historical balance and perspective, more objectivity, and adherence to core WP:NPOV. It is not an easy job! That being said, User TFD has a very valid point: It is unfair and very strange that with 22 votes in favor of deletion, three to merge (meaning also opposing the retention of the article) versus 14 keeps, therefore the keeps are outnumbered almost two to one, that that is somehow "no consensus". Simply based on the recent vote the article should have been deleted as User TFD requests. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:25, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. 06:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC) IZAK (talk) 06:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse WP:DELPRO#Consensus explains that "Consensus is formed through the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, and should not be calculated solely by the balance of votes." The close was a model of such careful consideration and the finding that there was no consensus seems quite reasonable. The complaint that achieving a simple majority of !votes for deletion did not result in deletion seems to misunderstand the nature of consensus which requires broad agreement. Andrew (talk) 06:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose No evidence has been furnished that the "delete" arguments were not firmly based on well-established policies and guidelines. Andrew Davidson correctly points out that a simple vote count is not the proper method for decision. But when the Ivotes in favor of deletion are so overwhelming, it is incumbent on the closer to explain why so many good faith votes, seemingly based on policies and guidelines, have been discounted. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• @TFD "The administrator said that there was no consensus that the article was a POV fork, although many editors said it was, and few disagreed." Actually, many disagreed - including yourself, TFD. Since The Four Deuces insists on pushing this line of argument, I will point out again he has removed the subject from the Jewish Bolshevism article on grounds that it is a separate topic. To quote exactly:

"The fact that some Jews became Communists and the conspiracy theory are two separate topics." --TFD, 11 September 2013

He then posted an RfC to show that the Jewish Bolshevism article is indeed solely about the conspiracy theory . Having succeeded in deleting the sourced info through said argument, he nominated the new article for deletion - on grounds that its a POVFORK of Jewish Bolshevism. As incredible as that may sound. Having failed that, he now proceeds to bother people here on WP:DELREV. Presumably if the article was indeed deleted on grounds of being a FORK, he would then claim its a "separate topic" once more (or whatever might serve to keep it out).

This is little more than WP:WIKILAWYERING to push a distinct agenda, namely deleting the text from Misplaced Pages. The arguments, from the alleged POVFORK (rendered nonsensical by TFD's own consensu ) on to the WP:BATHWATER claims that the article is "unsalvageable" - are spurious and biased. Most "delete" votes were hysterical WP:IDONTLIKEIT exclamations instigated by TFD's own inflammatory presentation of the article as "attempting to justify a Nazi conspiracy theory" (which imo constitutes a particularly heinous personal attack as well, against a long-time contributor). As regards claims that "no comprehensive study of the subject had ever been undertaken", they are manifestly untrue. Though I suppose one could theoretically extend the definition of "comprehensive study" far enough to delete this entire project.

In short, RoySmith perceived the situation very accurately: the basic deletion rationale was manifestly absurd (with a contradicting consensus established by the nominator himself), and the rest of the arguments amount to a hill of beans. -- Director (talk) 08:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)