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Consensus - "War on Terrorism"

After discussing the relationship between the Iraq War and the War on Terrorism, we have reached a consensus over how do deal with this at Misplaced Pages. As the "War on Terrorism" is a specific, defined campaign, waged by the USA and its allies, they have full ability to define it, and carry it out as they choose. The campaign is a campaign being waged by them against those they have labeled terrorist groups and state sponsors of terror. As Iraq was labeled a state sponsor of terror , and as the Iraq War has always been stated as a part of the War on Terrorism , it is a factual statement to say that it is a part of this campaign. The main objection to this was that it allegedly allows the United States and allies determine for the world who is, and who is not a terrorist/state sponsor. This is untrue - this specific campaign is against those they see as terrorists/state sponsors, thus avoiding any issue of NPOV. Another problem arose in discussion, however, dealing with how to represent this fact in the related articles. Some raised concerns that were we to merely state it as part of the War on Terrorism, it might not be clear to people that it is stating it as part of the specificly defined conflict. To address this, we have come to a compromise in which quotations are used in the infobox, ex. Part of the "War on Terrorism." We beleive that this removes any doubt that it is referring to the specific campaign, described at the article's namespace. We came to both of these conclusions through an extensive discussion, and beleive it to be a valid consensus based on the strength of the arguments. If anyone has any objections that are relevant to this decision, please raise them here. Rangeley 01:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to try to rephrase that and see if I get it right. The US isn't the world arbiter of who is and is not really a terrorist or a sponsor of terrorism. Nevertheless, the US sets up campaigns and whatnot, and it gives them proper names, e.g. "Operation Enduring Freedom", etc. They've named one of their campaigns "The War on Terrorism", and although it is argued that this is a prejudicial misnomer, it is the name they chose. Recognizing that the Iraq War is part of that particular campaign, as classified by those carrying it out, is not really a problem. It's just that the name of the campaign exploits the ambiguity between proper and common nouns to make it appear that any action in the campaign is actually carried out for the purpose of fighting terrorism, defined in whatever way people think of it intuitively. To avoid this prejudicial aspect of the name, we're putting it in quotes, to highlight the fact that it's being used as a proper noun, and that we aren't making any claim as to the appropriateness of the words "War" "on" "Terrorism" to describe what's going on in Iraq.

Meanwhile, the article will be sure to address the controversy over the causes of the war, and their putative relation to terrorism, which is what this naming issue is really about.

Is that just about right? If so, I support the solution described by Rangeley and myself. -GTBacchus 01:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. Rangeley 01:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I support this decision, please read here for a further rationale as to why quotations should be used. --kizzle 02:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

So does this mean we can finally remove the NPOV and US-centric tag in the template? --Edward Sandstig 06:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why the NPOV tag was ever there, once the US Centric tag went up the other should have come down. As for removing both, as long as its represented by the quotation marks it seems it would be ok to remove both tags. I will start to write up something on the controvery over the inclusion of Iraq War. As per the agreement. --zero faults 10:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I still have a problem with putting this in the title. I do understand though that this is a US-defined term--so if we have to use this Republican rhetorical device, can we at least label it "Part of the U.S. War on Terrorism" since that a better descriptor of the conflict.Publicus 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No, we determined that to label it "Bush's" or "United States" then it would not represent all of the players involved, because many of the operations have no US involvement whatsoever. The quotes do enough to show it is a proper noun, not a description. The article makes it clear what this proper noun is. Rangeley 13:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

However, the Iraqi front in the WOT is solely defined by the U.S.--other nations are fighting terrorism, but it's really the U.S. that has defined the Iraqi conflict most recently as part of the WOT. Sorry to rehash this argument, I must have missed part of the discussion earlier.Publicus 13:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Every part of the WoT is solely defined by the US/allies. We decided that, however, stating that it is the US War on Terror implies they are the only player, something that is incorrect. Thus we compromised on quotes to make it clear that it is a proper noun. We have talked about this exact topic here Rangeley 13:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, I just wanted to know if the "US" label had been discussed. The quotes on WOT work for me. Nice job on a very small but very difficult piece.Publicus 16:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This works for me - whether you consider GWOT a real & valid thing or a US fantasy/excuse, it 'exists' and is part of the rhetoric - the quotes appear to do it justice in both interpretations yet does not automatically lend legitimacy; nicely NPOV IMHO. I do have another quibble though...Bridesmill 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I was beginning to think I was crazy. --kizzle 15:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Was the 27-3 supermajority not enough to end this? Is everyone willing to at least work towards a middleground except Nescio. What would appease you Nescio? --zero faults 14:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Casualty Figures

The infobox shows 55K Insurgents dead or jailed - that would imply that it's good to get them off the street (true) but it also implies that somehow it doesn't matter whether you kill them or just lock them up (forever?? if you consider it equiv to dead??). It also implies that *everyone* locked up is a bad guy. There is pretty well unanimous agreement that this is not so (the debate ranges from 'possibility of a few erroneous arrests & a very small percentage' to 'most are illegally detained' - but in either case it makes the 55K a dubuious figure) This figure really needs to be broken out into separate Killed & Detained. The other quibble is that the civil casualties are all on the left side of the table; whihc implies that they were all caused by the right side of the table, which is patently not true - Saddam's folks and insurgents have been responsible for a lot of them too. Can the civ figure be placed across both columns somehow?Bridesmill 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed your second complaint, but I dont know how to deal with it really. How do we determine which civilians were killed by which side? Rangeley 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Its correct according to the Iraq Index. Since its obvious in a war torn country they do not have specific numbers of who is an insurgent and who is a terrorists, since they are almsot one and the same. They have included terrorists into the insurgent numbers. As for civilians killed, the number I provided by the Iraq Index includes only those killed by combat related incidents, not crimes, this excludes war crimes. What this means is that Iraqi's killing Iraqi's for their TV is not included in this number. There is a seperate number for those killed by combat operations and crime, also in the source. As for what it implies ... they are just numbers its not implying anything. Its almost like if you had a statistic of murders in prisons and then went on about how they may be innocent. They are guilty to the effect that they have been arrested as insurgents or terrorists, thats all I can really offer you. The number is about jailed/killed, and so its quotes as such. As for who is illegally detained, this is not the forum for political belief discussion on legallities of detention of insurgents or "freedom fighters". --zero faults 14:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind if people provide alternate sources, however they have to be based on a reasonably sized study, one more larger and respected then the Iraq Index. --zero faults 14:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree that 55 is bogus, just looked at the cited ref & this figure is a most interesting extrapolation from what the doc already says are questionable figures. The civ stats are not much different - a range 18K-34K would prob be more in keeping with what Brookings says; the 33,334 lends a false air of accuracy and reliability. Absolutely - we don't know who killed who re. civs (yes, early on in war it was heavily Coalition 'collateral', but not since then) Which is why I'm thinking have the civ figures stretch across both collumns so it doesn't specify or 'assume who the perpetrator of civ deaths was - would do this, but my box-format-edit skills are abysmal ... Nor am I suggesting that Brookings is bad; it's what I use day to day - just that in this case the use of it is somewhat misleading - the cell that the 33,334 came from says '18,961-33,334' - an honest use of those figures would be to quote the range or the median, not to use the upper limit. Bridesmill 14:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no issue with this, I used the top half number because the previous number cited over 100,000 which was just civilians dead, not differentiating if they died of anything related to combat even, it was also done on shakey methods of taking the total dead in one town, where heavy fighting had gone on, then using that % with the total population and assuming that % of dead was in every city. So I kept the higher number to prevent a fight over such a low number basically. I have no personal preference as to using the whole range. --zero faults 15:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

it was also done on shakey methods of taking the total dead in one town, where heavy fighting had gone on, then using that % with the total population and assuming that % of dead was in every city. If you're referring to the Lancet study, well, no, completely wrong: in fact, it was done in precisely the opposite way: data collected in Fallujah was specifically excluded because it was an outlier. See this article and this American radio documentary program. --Calton | Talk 07:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The study counts people who died, not people who died due to the war. The Iraqi Index specifically counts people who have been killed by some sort of military action. And contains a seperate number for people killed by crime, not related to military action. There is no reason to include the number of people dead, when it could have been some guy making love to his wife in the heat and having a heart attack. Its inappropriate to attribute every death to the war. --zero faults 11:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont know how to split the cell either. --zero faults 15:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I tried but with grotesque results - I've posed the question at Template talk:Infobox Military Conflict.Bridesmill 15:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point Bridesmill, I would also like to see the Iraqi civilian number put more in the middle--however, we also have to keep in mind that some of the Iraqi civilian dead might also be counted as insurgents, or terrorists, or militia, etc. The same problem can also be seen in the "Iraqi Security Forces" number--some of those might also fall into the insurgent category (those who have infiltrated the ISF for example) so how do we count them? Personally, I have no idea.Publicus 16:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The source I am using has seperate number for Security Forces killed, so its already stated they are not. As for the whole "what if" thing, we have to assume they are not. For any poll or statistic you can then say, how do you know you counted the right ones, that person may really be an alien ... as an extreme example. But since the poll does differentiate, civilians are non combatants, meaning they are also not security forces, terrorists, insurgents etc. Yes I do know he may have seemed like a civilian but really been a terrorist, its the same with any stat, you in the end can never really tell. --zero faults 16:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

user:Kirill Lokshin over at the Infobox home has kindly activated the 'Casualties3' field, I just did it on the article; not totally sure if it's the final answer but I think a step in the right direction.Bridesmill 16:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking contractor dead is a valid figure, but perhaps blended in as part of total Coalition dead (in interest of keeping infobox concise). THey are different form 'pure' civs, in that most of them are simply employees (often ex-military) of the military - technicians without uniforms. Bridesmill 16:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I just felt they should not get their own group. If you want to add that total, to the other total and maybe put a footnote and at the end of the page state this is what happened, that seems fair. --zero faults 17:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I think there is a misunderstanding, contractors should be moved to civilian dead if anything. --zero faults 19:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

WMDs

So where do we go from here? I am sure there will be tons of reports and people analyzing the report that got leaked stating WMDs were actually found, furthermore I did not even know that Deuffler last year stated that insurgents had been using some of those chemical munitions. Anyone have a link to that report? --zero faults 12:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Disputed

This title is only to suppot the link on article. Do not comment here but farther down.

Starting a proper RFC that mentions all views

A severely biased poll has been started on which the initiators of that poll refuse to mention links to previous discussions that opposes their view. Also it only presents their take of the debate, attempts to balance this POV poll by inserting the opposing views are repeatedly deleted. Since this is not a fair poll I have started a RFC which adequately states what the debate is about. Also the massive deletion of comments on that page makes it absolutely impossible to use it as a fair instrument to determine this dispute.

Results of the previous polls were:

• 16-10 are saying that Iraq is not part of the War on Terror and therefore the infobox should not state it as such, since a controversial statement does not belong in any infobox as per WP:NPOV.
• 14-4 are saying that Iraq is not part of the War on Terror and therefore the infobox should not state it as such, since a controversial statement does not belong in any infobox as per WP:NPOV.
• 10-3 WMD was the prominent -that is, not terrorism- reason advanced by the Bush administration to invade Iraq.

The previous debates for what this poll is really trying to address can be found there:

What this is not addressing

• The name of the War on Terrorism. Currently, Misplaced Pages's article on the conflict is located at vthe War on Terrorism, and until it is not located there, this is the name of the conflict as far as other articles are concerned.
• Whether the Iraq War was justified. This is not an attempt to justify, or use Misplaced Pages to justify the War in Iraq. There is no agenda being pushed other than that of presenting facts to Wikipedians.
• What the Bush administration was asserting, since it is not about what Bush said but whether Iraq was invaded to fight terrorism.

What this is addressing

• Including Iraq in part of the "War on Terrorism" means that the US went to Iraq to fight terrorism.
• Part of the "War on Terrorism" is not the same as stated by the US as part of the "War on Terrorism."
• That it has been established by the Bush Administration that Iraq was involved in international terrorism and the Bush administration had no way of knowing otherwise.
• Resulting in the recognition of the Iraq War as part of the "War on Terrorism."

Why it is alleged to be part of the War on Terrorism

• The United States and its allies began the military campaign known as the War on Terrorism, a campaign whose goal is "ending international terrorism by stopping those groups identified by the U.S. as terrorist groups and ending state sponsorship of terrorism."
• Saddam Hussein's regime was considered a "state sponsor of terrorism" by the United States government.
• The United States and its allies began the Iraq War as a stated part of the War on Terrorism, both pre-war, and since it has begun.

Why it is alleged not to be part of the War on Terrorism

• War on Terrorism lack inclusion or exclusion criteria. We therefore do not know what the limits are of this war and subsequently can't decide what is and what is not part of this war. The idea that when Bush says it is part of it then it is, clearly opens up pandora's box making WOT dependend on what ever Bush thinks and not on objective and verifiable criteria.
• It is not up to President Bush to decide for the entire planet what is and what is not part of this war.
• Prior to the invasion of Iraq there was no terrorism of significance present so suggesting the US went to Iraq to fight terrorism is at best not substantiated by the known facts.
• US intelligence stated prior to the invasion that no proof existed of any link between Iraq and international terrorisme, more specifically no link to 9-11.

Comments

Please leave your reponse to this indicating whehter you think Iraq was invaded as part of the WOT or that it is incorrect to assert that the US invaded to fight terrorism in Iraq.

People that oppose including Iraq in the War on Terror, because they think that "part of the War on Terror" is a statement of fact and inappropriate for such a disputed topic.

1. Comment per WP:NPOV, views must be attributed. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox: WP:SOAP, not even for the Nicaraguan government, or the U.S. government for that matter.

   Also, I think it was zer0faults who incidently brought up a logical contradiction in including Iraq in the "War on Terrorism": premises: 1. The War on Terrorism is ongoing. 2. The War in Iraq is over. 3. The War in Iraq is(or was) part of the War on Terror. 4. There are currently terrorists in Iraq. logically: if the iraq war is part of the war on terror, the war on terror is ongoing, and there are still terrorists in iraq, then the war in iraq is ongoing. This contradicts premise 2. removing any one of the four premises removes the logical inconsistency. premise 4 is empirically supported; verifiable; sound, so at least one of the premises (1,2,3) is not. Kevin Baas 14:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Wow talk about a flawed logic statement. Do you see where your flaw is? That assumes that the War on Terror and Iraq War are the same, not that they are linked. Let me give you an example. 1) WW2 ended in 1946 2) Battle of Moscow ended in 1942 3) Battle of Moscow was part of WW2 4) Soviets still defend Moscow. Obviously this means that the Battle of Moscow then did not end in 1942, contrary to historians, but ended in 1946 because the soviets still defended Moscow after 1942.

   Furthermore noone said the War in Iraq got rid of all terrorists. Your logic statement assumes that the terrorists would have to be removed in order for something to bring it to a close. Its almost like stating there are Jews in Germany so the Holocaust is still going on. maybe one day you will see wars are not Black and White. --zero faults 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

People that support including Iraq in the War on Terror, because they think that since President Bush has said Iraq is "part of the War on Terror" it is sufficient to make it a fact, and it is irrelevant whether such a statement is factual or supported by evidence.

Discussion

Consider I commented already can you cease to edit this poll. Thank you --zero faults 10:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Adding information is not altering the discussion. It only facilitates the access to the relevant information, which you and your partner eagerly want participants not to find. Nomen Nescio 10:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If I comment on something, then you change its context, its not facilitating anything. Its misrepresenting what I had choosen or spoke about. Now that you have your poll here, which you seem eager to change whenever you want, regardless of what people say during that time, you can leave the other alone and stop attempting to vandalize it. --zero faults 11:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Novel idea, inserting links to previous discussions and evidence of deleting comments is considered altering the debate. Nomen Nescio 11:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Changing statements previously agreed to by other is actually vandalism. You caused confusion with Kizzle above as you can see by doing it. --zero faults 12:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that your massive deletion of other editors comments is vandalism. Nomen Nescio 13:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Furthermore this is misleading "That it has been established by the Bush Administration that Iraq was involved in international terrorism and the Bush administration had no way of knowing otherwise.". It is written to assume a negative, which is distateful. It is implying Bush could have known that Saddam didnt engage in international terrorism. However its already been noted he did fund the PALF, which is a fact. SO the question itself is misleading is it not? --zero faults 11:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

1. It is about what do we consider terrorism and what conduct constitutes support of terrorism? I already exdplained that if links to terrorism suffice then the entire planet is supporting terrorism. Nomen Nescio 11:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   So you feel funding suicide bombers is not participating in international terrorism? --zero faults 12:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   I think that funding and training OBL is in no way differnet. Nomen Nescio 12:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Good then you agree that Iraq being labeled as a terrorist nation by the United States was not wrong. --zero faults 12:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   I never disputed that, I merely pointed out that in the name of consistency we would also have to label the US as terrorist nation. Since you are not willing to do that I do not see why I should agree with you using a double standard. Nomen Nescio 12:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Who said I did not agree with you, I think the US Government is evil, I think we slaughtered a bunch of Japanese people to test a toy. However proving and believing are different things. My personal opinion is the US is a bunch of terrorists in nice suits. Again, however, no nation on the planet recognizes the US as a state sponsor of terrorism, the US a permanant member of the UN Security Council however recognizes Iraq as one. --zero faults 13:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Furthermore the Global War on Terrorism is against nations that are state sponsors of terrorism and terrorists themselves. Hence why your circular logic fails, noone recognizes the US as terrorists or state sponsors of terrorism. If a nation ever did, then yes they would be able to technically attack the US and state its part of the WOT. However Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball, as you have been pointed out about before. --zero faults 13:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   That makes your above question misleading as it is assuming there is no link to Saddam and terrorists. Please note this. --zero faults 12:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Do not edit my comments, its a seperate point. --zero faults 12:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

1. What do you propose was the reason for gonig to war if not terrorism? If we are to reach a concensus you have to share with us your views so we can find a middleground. --zero faults 12:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Contrary to you and your friend I was not present when directly following 9-11 Bush decided Iraq had to be invaded. So, I am not privy to that information. What I do know is that this administration advocated several reasons for invading that are not compatible with the facts. 1 WMD, contrary to what the administration said there was not rocksolid evidence of SH having WMD. If anything there was rock-solid doubt as to the veracity of that claim, 2 Links to AQ, again many were not convinced by the available evidence, therefore this also is at best a disputed reason, 3 UN resolutions, the fact that mister UN himself dismissed this argument says enough., 4 et cetera. Point is, none of the advocated reasons were at any time considered to be undisputed and undeniably true. That is, outside the administration. Nomen Nescio 12:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   Will you concede you are wrong if, I can prove the UN even told Saddam not to make any more terrorist comments? I can prove that the link was not only suppose to be to AQ, but to terrorists in general and finally I can prove that the fear of WMDs was that they would fall into terrorist hands. --zero faults 12:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   I do not doubt you have such information, just like I have information countering that. What we have is a stalemate. Nobody has sufficient evidence, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, he is right. Therefore, since the dispute cannot be settled at this time we should not be advocating either side, see WP:NPOV. Stating as a fact that Iraq was invaded to fight terrorism clearly is suggesting that is the correct and only interpretation. Which it can't be since there is a dispute. Nomen Nescio 12:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   This is not a stalemate now that you are wrong. How about you layout what you want me to prove and I will attempt to do so. I can provide proof, in the form of Res 114 that proves terrorism was a reason, as well as proof that WMD concerns were linked to the idea they may spread to terrorists, as well as Bush's speechs to the UN that says WMDs may get in the hands of terrorists, I can provide sources that link Saddam to the PALF and funding of suicide bombers, I can provide proof that the UN issued a warning to Saddam about terrroism. So what proof would you need supplied to prove Saddam is linked to terrorism and I will drag it up. --zero faults 13:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Repost from my page: I have asked you on the Iraq War article page, the comment you moved to discussion, what evidence would convince you. You asked for a discussino and in an attempt to reach a concensus. I would like your feedback. Thank you --zero faults 14:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• To repeat what I already stated in the multitude of discussions

• If invading Iraq was to fight terroism we should prove Iraq was a terrorist state.
• If funding terrorism makes a country a terrorist state all countries that do so should be considered terrorist states.
• If ties to terrorism suffice to invade a country we should accept that every country that has these ties can be invaded without being bound to the UN charter.

I'll add others but it's a start Nomen Nescio 14:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Iraq was on the United States list of nations that sponsor terrorism. They have admitted to funding the PALF suicide bombers fund. The United Nations has warned Iraq about terrorism. That takes care of part one. Point two is something you hope for or wish for, its not something that can be provided with facts, so its void. Number 3 is also something that cannot be provided with facts because its once again somethnig you hope for, so its void. Give me things that you need facts to support and I will do so, do not ask me the meaning of life and why the UN lets Isreal have a bomb and noone else, im not a mind reader. Ask for things to be proven for a fact, that you need proven to see theother side, and I will try to provide them. More questions please. --zero faults 14:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, this may be a language barrier thing but, State-sponsor of terrorism, and Terrorist state, are not the same thing. One is a nation that funds or permits terrorists to operate within it, the other is a state that opperates as terrorists. --zero faults 15:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Just keep the links and remove your comments, what is so hard about that? Your comments are actually factually false. You are stating a vote took place over if the WOT and Iraq are linked, however the polls state the question as, should the WOT be in the infobox. This leads to people voting, no it shouldnt be in the infobox since its debated if they are linked. This is not them saying if they feel its linked, its them commenting on the inclusion of it in the infobox. If you remove your commentary then feel free to remove mine as well, Just leave the polls there. Also do not say they are about this topic, cause they are not, say related, but even then if they are all about the infobox, then you should say they are about the infobox, or main reason for war, do not misrepresent them to be about the WOT IRaq War link. They are not. --zero faults 20:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments regarding the alleged NPOV of questions

• Your poll makes no sense, it says you are seeking no justification yet it says "that it is incorrect to assert that the US invaded to fight terrorism in Iraq" these things are mutually exclusive. That is seeking a justification, is this some kind of trick to get people to vote in the wrong direction? YOur are in fact attempting justification for an action it seems. Very tricky. COnsidering you started this, will you cease to vandalize the other? --zero faults 10:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

1. To determine what is the reason behind this invasion is not a justification. Please read about reason, validation, justification, explanation and you will find they all mean something different. Since many comments were deleted from the other "poll" I consider it evidence of an agenda by the initiators and violation of NPOV to disallow any other view than those of proponents. Nomen Nescio 10:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   To clarify, I may be able to explain why a murderer did what he did, but that in no way is a justification for his deeds. So explaining and agreeing with something are two seperate things. Nomen Nescio 11:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   You seem to never answer the question, what do you feel was the reason? --zero faults 11:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   How can we not be seeking to justify something if you are covertly attempting to say what happened in the future, after the invasion actually took place? Also what do you think is the reason that the US invaded Iraq? --zero faults 10:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Unfair criteria for people supporting, why is there negatives attached to one view and not the other. This is clearly a bias statement made disuade people from voting in this direction, its almost shameful. This poll seems bias. People voting in this directino would be voting against "facts" according to your questions. --zero faults 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  • My response to this has been deleted by Zero, but I am sure he will reinsert it. Nomen Nescio 15:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I told you to give me the dif so I know what it was, and I gladly would. However you rather post here then get the dif. I wonder why. --zero faults 15:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Restoring the comment myself since Zero is today more interested in deleting comments than having a fair debate based on all information available.
      • It is your own argument, if Bush says it is then it is, since he has the right to name anything he likes. Also see statements in your poll explicitly mentioning that this is not about the facts. Nomen Nescio
        • Its not my poll, noone owns Misplaced Pages space, however the "other poll" says its not about justifying anything. Its about why the war was started, not what happened after it began. This is like the 8th time I have told you this for some reason. --zero faults 15:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
          • • This indeed is about the why, and the title you propose asserts that the why is fighting terrorism. That is fine by me if you can provide sufficient arguments to explain that there is no dispute regarding that subject. Of course, no dispute outside the Bush administration. Nomen Nescio 17:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Who said there was no link between Saddam and terrorism? the UN even reprimanded the Iraq government for terrorism, why do you keep ignoring this, its becoming as if you do not want to acknowledge facts. --zero faults 17:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Were Jews burned as a sacrifice to the Gods during WW2? Because that is what Holocaust means, so unless you would be saying we should change the title of Holocaust as well since it does reflect what really happened. --zero faults 17:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Whats this have to do with my comment above? --zero faults 15:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
        • I want to see the dif, because gonig through it, I did not see that comment, its also note dated properly so it wasnt a copy paste. Its also not in relation to what I wrote above. --zero faults 15:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Responding to "irrelevant whether such a statement is factual or supported by evidence," I only observe that your own argument is that Bush gets to decide and this debate is not whether it is true or not. Nomen Nescio 16:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
            • • The arguement, for the 9th time, is that the US Government get to decide who it goes to war with in its own campaign. Nomen Nescio does not get to pick where the US goes, nor do I. --zero faults 16:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
                • • Why do you keep ignoring the UN charter which clearly forbids the US to do anything outside of its border resembling a war of aggression? Thereby making any opnion the US has null and void, since international law gets to decide and not Mr Bush. Nomen Nescio 16:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
                    • So no Jews were killed in WW2 because anything that Germany did was null and void since it was acting under a war of agression? So by logic that removes WW2 from ever happening also. Also its a pretty big violation of NPOV to ignore the US view all together, and that comment will be noted. If you really think that since it was illegal, it didnt happen, then I can no longer discuss this with you, and your comment will be noted, you are not looknig for a middleground or facts, you are looknig to supress or paint badly anything that resembles an action by the US. --zero faults 17:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Cute, I am still waiting for more facts to provide you with, or have I satisfied all you are asking for? --zero faults 15:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The crux of the matter

Look, its cool and all that you decided to make your own discussion, but rather than debate on and on and on about two different things, I beleive I see the sole hitch in all of this. You, Nomen Nescio, do not beleive the United States has the power to determine what terrorism is for the world. This is true, for instance you mentioned the moon wont be made of cheese if the USA says it is. This is also true, and that goes without saying. However, this is a seperate issue. The United States began a campaign against people they label a certain thing. They can label whoever they want this thing. The label doesnt need to be accurate, for instance I can go around labeling people losers. It might not be true. Lets say I beat up the people I labeled losers. Does it matter if they were losers, or not? No, because they were beat up for the label given to them, therefore to recognize I beat up those I labeled loser is correct. By recognizing that I beat up those I saw as losers, we are not justifying my actions. We are not even calling, or giving credit to, calling the people losers. We are just recognizing that I targetted the people I called losers. Maybe I dont even really think they are losers, and I did it because I have low self esteem and want to tear others down. Doesnt change a thing. I still labeled them losers, and attacked those who I labeled losers. The United States began a campaign against those they labeled terrorists and state sponsors of terror. Thats the premise of the campaign. They might not be terrorists. But they are targetted because they are labeled terrorists or state sponsor of terror. By recognizing that the USA is waging a war against those they label terrorists and state sponsors of terror, we are not justifying their actions. We are not calling, or giving credit to, calling them terrorists or state sponsors of terror. We are just recognizing that they targetted the nations the USA labeled State sponsors of terror, and people terrorists. Maybe the USA doesnt really think they are terrorists, and it was done because Bush had low self esteem and wanted to pick on smaller countries. Doesnt change a thing. They still labeled them terrorists/state sponsors, and attacked those they labeled as such. Do you see the difference between this, and giving the USA the power to be God? The USA has power to determine what labels to give others, and determine how it sees people. If it then goes on to wage a campaign against those they see as a certain thing, we inherently must recognize it. Just like we must recognize that the Nazi regimes actions against those they labeled "enemies of the state" are all linked in the same genocidal campaign, we must recognize the US and allies campaign against those labeled "terrorists and state sponsors of terror." Whether or not anyone is actually an enemy of the state, or whether anyone is actually a terrorist is quite beyond the point. Rangeley 15:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The crux is that your analogy only works if nobody had told you in advance you were wrong, what we already established in my similar analogy. Everybody can make a mistake, but a doctor that has been warned by his colleages not to operate since they believe the patient will die, cannot explain operating anyway and then the patient dies with: I thought he would live. Nonsense, if you are warned, time and again your presumption is highly dubious, if not wrong, you can't defend yourself by saying, nevertheless I still thought I was right.

Of course, Bush can label anyone he likes, however, to make this a discussion of facts we need verifiable criteria why he labels a person/country as terrorist. Are there real plans being made to attack the US, or is Bush simply eliminating those he dislikes? At this point, without objective criteria there is just no way of knowing on what grounds the WOT is fought. Heck, he could outlaw research into global warming, or alternative fuel, on account of it being a threat to national security. If he says so, it is. Therefore the logic that by labeling someone a terrorist that is enough ecidence you introduce circular logic.

Further, under international law the US is not allowed to wage any war without UN support or out of self-defense. We can rule out self-defense, unless you know of any imminent threat from Iraq. Leaving the UN, and since the UN has the last word on it they too are involved in the debate: what constitutes terrorism and WOT. Remember, this is not limited to US territory, by its own definition it is a fight involving the entire planet. Why can only the US decide how to call this global concept? Nomen Nescio 16:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If the doctor was warned that removing the tumor would kill the patient, yet still does it ... Did he not still do it to remove the tumor? This also goes to justification, oddly enough during BLix's last statement to the UN he did not say there was no WMD's he said that components of chemical and biological weapons were still unaccounted for. Also Saddam's links to terrorism are facts, so the portion related directly to terrorism, if one were seeking justification, would actually be correct. --zero faults 17:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

you open up two answers: 1 The doctor was operating to save the patients life, although he was explicitly told that the patient would probably die, 2 he was operating to remove a tumor but was explicitly told the tumor probably was benign and not a malignancy. In either case the doctor went ahead after being told his premise was flawed, so he cannot fall back on the excuse he thought he was saving a life (clearly he knew death was more likely), nor that he was removing a tumor (as he already knew it probably was not). As to the links to terrorism, feel free to explain why we use the double standard of designating Iraq a terrorist state, but ignoring the identical acts by the US, Israel and other countries. Nomen Nescio 18:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont have to explain why there is a double standard, write to your elected official and ask why his country has not labeled the US a state sponsor of terrorism if you want to know why noone else does it. Stop wasting our time with your unhappiness at your countries lack of action against what you feel are injustices. This is not the forum for you to wage a protest of your or another governments actions. --zero faults 18:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have also already explained to you why Bush labeled Iraq a "state-sponsor of terrorism". The country was funding suicide bombers to act against the state of Israel, the same state he fired SCUD's at for no reason duringi the first Gulf War. So he was actually funding terrorism against a member nation of the UN. He admitted this already, its not an allegation anymore. Your question of, is Bush eliminating those he dislikes, does not have to eliminate all other reasons. Maybe Bush did not like Saddam, but tis not Bush who picks who state sponsors of terrorism are. I pointed this out to you before, I do know if you understand, but Bush is not the one that gets to pick who state sponsors of terrorism are. --zero faults 17:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, nobody denies SH had contacts with terrorists, however, logic dictates that when we apply this consistently you are saying that the US is free to invade any country they call a terrorist state. An overt attempt to eliminate international law. Nomen Nescio 18:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You are saying the US used the designation of a terrorist state correctly, then you are assuming they will use it incorrectly. YOu are not drawing a connection. The fact that even the UN cited Iraq for terrorism should be enough for you. Noone is saying the war is illegal, however you have now admitted that Iraq had ties to terrorism, this means there inclusion on the State Department list of state-sponsored terrorism is correct. Which means there is no reason to believe since they did have terrorist ties, that the Iraq War was not aprt of the Global War on Terrorism. Thank You Finally! Also I really do not care if US attacks a small island full of natives with 10megaton nukes, you have finally stated that Iraq had links to terrorism, which means there inclusion on the state-sponsor list is valid and renounces your own misgiving about the US intent, which should have never been an issue in the first place. Like Rangeley said, I do not care if they even eat babies. --zero faults 18:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Because something is illegal does not erase that it happened or that it was part of a larger invasion, I pointed this out to you already in regards to Germany and WW2. Their invasions of well, most of Europe, were wars of agression. However as you will probably note if you look at the WW2 article, those invasions are listed, they are not removed on the basis they were illegal. This goes to show that the legality of the invasion, does not remove it from its greater context. Also the definition of Global War on Terrorism, according to its article, does not mean the whole world. I think you should read the opening paragraph for more information. It specifies who is involved and why.--zero faults 17:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody disputes there is a war in Iraq. The dispute is whether this war is about fighting terrorism in Iraq. Don't use a red herring or straw man. If GWOT does not include the entire world, please explain to what geographical location it is limited, and if these limits may change as Bush decides otherwise. Nomen Nescio 18:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You already admitted their was links to terrorism, you validated the reason given by the administration. If you have some controversial theory such as oil, which the government of France was buying illegally to help Saddam circumvent a UN programme that was suppose to supply humanitarian aids, or something along those lines, then you can state them and let everyone decide if they believe you. However since you now admit to know the Iraqi government had links to terrorism, and the war on terrorism is a fight against countries of that type, then its obviously included. --zero faults 18:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Last but most importantly, Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. This statement "Heck, he could outlaw research into global warming, or alternative fuel, on account of it being a threat to national security" is an example of crystal ballism. As for the UN, they are not actually part of the Global War on Terrorism, the article specifically states: "a campaign by the United States, NATO, and other allies with the stated goal of ending international terrorism by stopping those groups identified as terrorist groups, and ending state sponsorship of terrorism." So no, the UN would not have the final say, or possibly even a say at all. Which would explain why NATO is conducting operations in Operation Active Endeavor without the UN ever even voting on it. --zero faults 17:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Since you're promoting the idea that anything Bush says is part of the WOT, it is you who is trying to predict the future. I still have to see inclusion/exclusion criteria and verifiable, objective arguments as to what constitutes terrorism and WOT. To assert WOT is what Bush says it is just won't do since it is circular reasoning. That definition makes my example not a prediction but a logical consequense. Just as observing that an apple will fall to the ground when you release it is no prediction but simply applying the laws of physics. Nomen Nescio 18:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You dont have to see inclusion criteria, its a war. Show me inclusion criteria for Cold War, WW1, WW2, show me a government inclusion exclusion list for any conflict. You already stated that Iraq had links to terrorism, that means by your own personal definition of terrorism, the exact thing that the war on terrorism is fighting, Iraq is included in. --zero faults 18:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A GWOT Compromise Proposal

Sorry, I'm new to this dustup, but I have two suggestions.

1. How about, instead of "Part of the Global War on Terrorism" at the top of the Iraq War infobox, we put "See also Global War on Terrorism" at the bottom of the infobox? My reasoning:
   1. It's the frackin' infobox, not the article. This compromise will let people click through to the GWOT article, which states, accurately, that the Bush admin considers Iraq to be part of the GWOT.
   2. Yes, this would leave both sides a little disappointed, but it would resolve the issue and let both people get back to editing the articles.
2. Nomen and Zer0, I love you both, but if I could make a small suggestion, I think it would be best if you both post one or two comments a day on this subject and leave it alone.
   1. You're both good, committed editors, but between you, you're putting out so much text that it's difficult for other people to contribute to the discussion.
   2. Neither one of you will lose the argument if you let the other one have the last word any particular day. You've both explained yourselves very well, and I'm confident that everyone knows how you each feel on this subject.

Thanks, and I hope nobody takes offense -- I appreciate all of your work on these and other topics. TheronJ 18:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I would never take offense to useful advice. The reason of the mess on this page is why Misplaced Pages:WOT was setup. I think the arguement is done anyway, Nomen has admitted above finally that Iraq had ties to terrorism, considering this admission and the fact that the war on terrorism is on ... terrorism. I think the issue is finally put to bed of it being factually linked, however un justified it may be. Also I would accept see also as well since it is coming from the "voice of reason" in most of my disputes. --zero faults 18:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You jump to conclusions. Having ties to terrorism does not prove the the invasion of Iraq is about fighting terrorism. Heck, Iraq has one of the largest oils reserves, does that prove the invasion was about oil? Or how about this, another fact is that SH is known to have met with US officials in the past and they send money and technical support. This proves that the invasion was about hiding the US involvement in the invasion of Iran. No, SH was wearing green uniforms and Bush was making a fashion statement by removing a leader that wears green uniforms. What I am trying to say is that stating two facts does not prove a causal relationship between them. Nice example: fact 1: Cheap horses are rare, fact 2: rare items are expensive. Therefore, following Zero's logic without really thinking about it we connect these two statements of facts, since cheap horses are rare, and rare items are expensive we have proven that cheap horses are expensive. QED Nomen Nescio 19:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Read UN Res 1441, HJ Res 114, etc. Your conspiracy theories aside, you have now already stated that Iraq had ties to terrorists, the war on terror is about fighting terrorists, iraq was attacked because bush said they had WMDs they would give to terrorists and links to terrorism. Its all together now since you admitted it. Everything else is conspiracy theories. The US goes to war over oil, cause it hates Islam, cause its spreading christianity, to win the elections, to let US soldiers shoot at middle eastern people, to eat babies ... sorry I cant get over that last one. --zero faults 20:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you think of TheronJ's proposal? --zero faults 20:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer that we did not change that, as there is no reason to treat that portion differently from other war's infoboxes. I am still for having it state "Part of the Global War on Terrorism" and have an overview in the War on Terrorism article. Though, if this isnt accepted by Kizzle I would accept 'Part of the "War on Terrorism."' Rangeley 20:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There's all sorts of logical proposals that don't involve "conspiracy theories," stabalization of the Middle-East, combating pan-arabic movements, maintaining a physical presence in the Middle East, exerting American hegemony as stated in the PNAC documents. Invading a country because it supports an anti-Israel terrorist group seems to be far from American interests and would seem to fail a simple cost-benefit analysis. --kizzle 20:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Those would be possible motives for the entire War on Terrorism as well. But I stated this before some place, something can have ulterior motives, and this doesnt make it any more or less part of a campaign. For instance, a battle in the North Africa Campaign might have been officially stated as part of the campaign to push Germany out of Africa and alleviate the Eastern Front, but the exact location might have been chosen by a general who was looking to find some sweet lovin' in a specific North African village. Even with hormonally charged ulterior motives, it does not alter the officially stated campaign for which it is under. By recognizing the campaign, we do not rule out ulterior motives from playing a part. Rangeley 20:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You keep harping on with endless repetitions of your claim about an alleged "officially stated campaign" and add all sorts of outlandish comparisons but never produce any reliable and neutral sources in support of it. The Iraq invasion may well be part of a larger scheme, but not of the "war on terror". Even if everything you say were true, it would be a larger campaign that is tagged by the US administration with the misnomer "war on terror". When will you finally realize that Misplaced Pages cannot be the place to parrot White House propaganda? Rkrichbaum 21:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Because as much as I disagree with Rangeley on the form in which we present the "War on Terrorism," I believe he is correct in saying that if we use the meaning of "War on Terrorism" as a label for American foreign policy post-9/11, then technically anything can fit in. Now whether these things are justified is an entirely different manner, and that is an argument that is much easier to win in my mind. But if we are treating the "War on Terrorism" as simply a label for foreign policy, then it can fit whatever the Bush administration says. If Bush says lets invade Canada tommorow because it's part of the "War on Terrorism," then by all means it gets included even though its fucking crazy. But this is a purely semantics debate, if you want to start talking about justification I think you'll find it a bit tougher than the avenue you're currently pursuing. --kizzle 21:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Why use an ambiguous label when we just as well can use the neutral description "American foreign policy post 9/11"? 84.178.164.235 03:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC) (Rkrichbaum 05:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

Same as we use "Operation Enduring Freedom". --kizzle 03:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That title seems to be in dispute. In addition, the "war on terror" is not the name of a particular military campaign as far as I know. So it isn't the "same", anyway. Rkrichbaum 05:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It is one in a long string of phrases to describe American foreign policy post-9/11, "The Long War" and "Global Struggle Against Islamic Fundamentalism" being others. --kizzle 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Authorization of force: "Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;" . In this press conference with Bush, Blair, Aznar, and Barasso before the war, Bush states the UN must address Iraq and be responsible "for the capacity to win the war of -- the first war of the 21st century, which is the war against terrorism." And another, which was March 8th was a speech entitled "War on Terror." In it the President states "This has been an important week on two fronts of our war against terror" with one front being the capture of Kalid Sheikh Mohammad, the other being that the weapons inspector from Iraq has reported to the UNSC on his findings. He goes on to say "He (Saddam) provides funding and training and safe haven to terrorists who would willingly deliver weapons of mass destruction against America and other peace-loving countries." And finally, on May 1st, Bush announced "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on." . I hope that clears things up. Rangeley 21:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Your quote from the Joint Resolution very clearly mentions the "war on terrorism" in connection with "United Nations Security Council resolutions". At the time the resolution was passed, the administration had hoped that a UNSC resolution would authorize force in the context of the "war on terror". The information that Iraq was "harboring terrorists" was spurious at best and had been reported false before the invasion. Ray McGovern, a former CIA official recently challenged Rumsfeld in public why he lied about that fact. SC members stated that Iraq was not about the war on terror. The SC did not authorize force. The US invaded anyway, but not to enforce a UNSC resolution which would have been in furtherance of the war on terrorism, but for other stated reasons, namely the alleged "immediate threat" posed by Iraq's alleged WMD capabilities based on information that also turned out to be false and made up of whole cloth. So there's no doubt the administration tried to link the Iraq invasion to the "war on terror", right from the beginning on 9/11/01, actually, but was never able to establish this link in reality. That Bush babbles about "victory" while the resistance increases and his soldiers are dying is more proof that WH statements cannot be taken at face value and not stated as fact on Misplaced Pages. 84.178.164.235 03:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC) (Rkrichbaum 05:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

The administration has always claimed that it was part of the war on terror (how big a part has varied a bit), at least in that the "axis of evil" were sponsors of terror. Much as there were other Casus Belli invoked, the reality is that today it is inextricably linked to the war on terror, given the magnet that Iraq (and the coalition forces there) has become in terms of those fighting under the banner of death to America and those with agendas in terms of the middle east(and that is the reality whether you originally called it GWOT, WMD, Oil, Crusades or just a hate-on for Saddam). So while the original aim was debatable, reality now isn't. Yes, there's a background of all sorts of other things, democratization, oppression, call it what you want, but in the foreground and lurking everywhere is facets of GWOT. The problem is 'what to call it' I am not sure if it is reasonable, in light of the complexity of the situation, just to put 'GWOT' in the infobox as that would be over-simpifying things. The text discusses causes & consequences in depth, and as a de facto standard none of the other Persian Gulf Wars list anything as to Casus Belli or rationale in the infobox. In other words, leave it empty & discuss in text.Bridesmill 00:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Response to proposal

Any compromise that still introduces a controversial statement into an infobox is in violation of WP:NPOV. Even if everybody agreed this still violates Misplaced Pages policy. Further, deleting an ongoing RFC after also deleting every mention of the previous discussions is rather bad taste amd can only be seen as trying to remove all other viewsw than that of the Bush administration.

The past days I have been thinking about this

• 62% and 78% were against including this statement in the infobox, see links above.
• Nevertheless two zealots restarted the debat, which this time included votestacking, leaving out the details and links which I just mentioned, also deleting every comment on the blatant manipulation.
• Trying to insert links to the previous debates goit me blocked.

Clearly since including any statement that is controversial is contrary to wikipedia policy we should not do this here. However, since people willingly adopt the Bush talking points as facts in wikipedia I will withdraw from this page. Thank you. Nomen Nescio 15:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)