Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:20, 24 June 2006

Please correct any spelling errors you spot in the proposal, but please do not modify it in any other way without discussing it here first. Thryduulf 20:06, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Why keep subpage?

Is there a reason to keep the subpage if something like Milk was put up for AfD? Why would we even note it? If it is obviously in bad-faith, why keep the subpage around? --Lord Voldemort 20:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

For more controversial articles like George W. Bush having a pre-existing already closed sub-page will potentially deter the casual vandal from going further with the nomination, given the extra hassle that they would need to go to. The less fanatical of the POV merchants will see that the article has been speedily kept already and is thus likely to be speedily kept again. It wont stop the more determined people, but then we have lost nothing by keeping it. For something like Milk it is unlikely to be nominated more than once, and so it wont be seen - but people get fanatical about the strangest things. I am not about to try and draw the boundary between controversial and non-controversial. Having the pages around is also evidence against cabalism and trying to hide things. Thryduulf 20:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Simply wondering. --Lord Voldemort 21:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It could also become useful in the RFC or RFA proceedings of someone who was disrupting Misplaced Pages with inappropriate AFDs. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 17:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Is this necessary?

An intriguing idea, but is this necessary? It seems as if most of the times this is expected to be used is when an obviously bad-faith AfD occurs, but isn't that already 'fixable' under current admin rules? I may be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing George W. Bush remaining in AfD for a week at a time. The other main use cited is when there are 0 (zero) Delete votes, but doesn't the good-faith nomination of the article imply that at least one person (the editor who inserted {{subst:afd}}) is suggesting this is a delete? Finally, I wish to note a concern that this might short-circuit the process of gaining consensus by allowing an admin to summarily override a good-faith AfD that he or she personally disagrees with. I don't mean to be contrarian, but I hope I have communicated my concerns clearly. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It is possible that it will be abused, but no more so than WP:CSD. For the reasons why I feel it is necessary take a look at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Snowspinner 2 and the fallout over Snowspinner's actions in speedy-keeping articles. Thryduulf 20:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I wondered if this was neccessary also, but for a different reason: Speedy keeps are already done, without benefit of a formalized proposal. I patrol Afd quite a bit and I see speedy keeps sometimes. I don't recall seeing any that were controversial. As I read it, the matter discussed in the RFC was not closing the Afds as a speedy keep, it was outright deletion of the Afd pages. I don't see that a problem exists, so I don't know what this proposal is trying to solve. Friday (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

No, many see the speedy keeping as nearly as bad as the deletion. And it is, in the same way that an admin closing an AFD with 99 "delete" votes as a "keep" even after 5 days is bad. ~~ N (t/c) 21:28, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I really can't see how the two are comparable. A speedily kept Afd is kept around where people can see it. If someone disagreed, they could easily undo it and/or register their objection. The deletion of the Afds was an altogether more extreme action, undoable only by admins. If speedy keeps are done by common sense and with consensus (as I believe they currently are in most cases), I don't see why a formal guideline is neccessary. Friday (talk) 21:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be nice to have a formal guideline just for the purpose of saying "you can't speedy keep just because you feel like it". I mean, even though it's undoable by anyone, it's highly disruptive - just like the example I gave of mass-closing "delete" AFDs as "keep" at the end of 5 days (which is explicitly against policy). ~~ N (t/c) 21:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no objections to this, but little enthusiasm either. It seems to me to be fixing a problem that isn't there, and will have no real affect on afd's main problems. This is re-aranging the deckchairs, when what we need is some form of change of direction. However, I see no reason to oppose it either (other than being instruction creep that serves little puspose). --Doc (?) 22:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the this-is-policy-creep camp (dare I say "rulecruft"?). Bad faith AfD noms are already being delisted as vandalism or whatever without any trouble, and in the case of a good faith AfD nom of a high profile article, after the first few keep votes and rationales a quick request on the nominator's talk page to retract the AfD does the trick. --fvw* 00:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. It would be nice to have a policy saying "you CAN'T speedy keep for these reasons", but it's not necessary. ~~ N (t/c) 00:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to chime in as well. This is a great idea but we already do it and are allowed under the existing rules. Having a separate page of complex rules and instructions creates opportunities for the vandals to nitpick at usand to bog us down in bureaucracy. Bad faith nominations should be speedy-closed as vandalism. Maybe we can keep this around more as a guideline page? Or even better, be bold and make a synopsis of it to replace the current section on "abusive nominations" on the /Maintenance page. Rossami (talk) 20:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Guideline #6

The last proposed guideline reads:

Articles meeting either criterion can be kept if the discussion has not been linked to the appropriate AfD day page within 30 minutes of the sub-page being created.

Why is this being proposed? In my (admittedly limited) experience, unlinked AfD subpages are usually a result of honest mistakes or inexperienced nominators. I feel that one should assume good faith and simply add the missing entry to the appropriate AfD page (and maybe notify the nominator on their talk page). The AfD process can then proceed as usual, possibly even resulting in a speedy keep if the nomination is inappropriate or done in bad faith.

Maybe I'm missing something, and there really is a good reason for this guideline. But it strikes me as an unnecessary complication on an otherwise good proposal, and I feel that its inclusion may even reduce the likelihood of the proposal reaching sufficient consensus for approval. —Ilmari Karonen 22:28, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, I wasn't reading carefully and didn't notice the meeting either criterion part. Sorry. I'm still not sure if this guideline is actually necessary, but I'm no longer opposed to its inclusion. Ilmari Karonen 22:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Objection, your honor

I have two objections to this proposal. First, it is entirely too long (as in complex, verbose and bureaucratese). Complex rules lead to misinterpretation and arguments over their scope. Speedy deletion criteria are extremely short for that precise reason. And second, the vote "speedy keep - bad faith nomination" appears quite often on VFD in places where it is entirely inappropriate (and not infrequently on articles that end up deleted). Just because someone vehemently disagrees with a nomination does not make it bad faith. Thus, I'm afraid that this proposed rule will be abused, and will lead to disruptive arguments on whether or not a speedy keep was valid, with potential revert warring on the reopening/closing of the discussion page.

We already speedily-keep the (extremely rare) obvious disruption cases, and we have guidelines for that (e.g. WP:VAND). If some nomination is an obvious keep, the net effect is that the article will have a VFD tag on it for a grand total of five days. If speedily kept, that is reduced to two days. I'd say that three extra days of having a tag on an article is far less inconvenient than this additional and complex rule. Radiant_>|< 23:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, in my experience, it seems that speedy keeps are accepted in cases where the nominator withdraws and there's no objection. You also see speedy deletes and speedy redirects of things listed on Afd. As long as there's consensus and visibility (Afds are quite visible to those who look for them), I don't see that hurrying things along in obvious cases is a bad thing. In fact, I'd say it helps, as there's a lot of stuff being sent through Afd. Friday (talk) 23:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Arguably the fact taht it already happens is an argument for adopting the policy. I think this proposal is a good way of formalising what's 'already happening', open the door to more Speedy Keeps to keep AfD manageable, and clarifying where some of the boundaries are. The Land 17:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Formalising what is already happening was one of my main objectives. I don't think what I've proposed goes further than this? Thryduulf 19:45, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

• I think it does go further than that, for the reasons given above and below. If you want to codify current practice, I think it would go roughly like this...
  1. "Speedy keep" means to remove the AFD notice from the article and close the AFD discussion, but not to unlist or delete that discussion.
  2. An article can be speedily kept ONLY if either
     1. the nominator withdraws the AFD and there have been no votes to delete so far
     2. the nominator clearly states that s/he actually wants the article renamed, merged, moved or redirected, and happens to have used the wrong tag for that
     3. the nomination was clear-cut vandalism or WP:POINT and nobody disputes this or votes to delete it anyway (since calling a nomination vandalistic does not make it so and actual POINT-making AFD nominations appear far less frequently than accusations thereof).
  3. Please realize that while you may personally dislike having an AFD tag on your favorite article, it is not actually doing any harm, and will be gone in less than a week.
• Radiant_>|< 08:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Support the idea, but too verbose

I support the idea behind this proposal 100%, but it really needs to be simplified. Something like...

"A speedy keep should only occur when there is a consensus among the first few voters do so. The resulting AfD page should be kept as a record and not deleted."

...should pretty well cover the whole thing.

There's no need to seperate "obvious bad faith" nominations into a seperate category, as they'll gather Speedy Keep votes very quickly anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 11:26, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

• I agree. Punkmorten 20:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• I also support the main idea, but the implementation is too verbose. Jamie 00:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Why not just eliminate Criterion One?

I assume Jesus or Milk would get four "Speedy Keeps" fairly quickly. Criterion 1 is redundant if my assumption is true, and eliminating it reduces complexity and potential for abuse (eg. by an admin who is absolutely convinced Old Elf Inn is fundamental to an encyclopedia.) Xoloz 13:37, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I take the point, but I don't think that articles like either of the two you mention should have to wait for 4 votes. The only way around that I can think of introduces more complexity - i.e. by defining articles that it is applicable to. As to which articles, I suggest articles on the list (on meta) of articles every Misplaced Pages should have and articles on current events that have had 100 or more edits in the last 24 hours. Both are easy to check and objective. I haven't actually checked all the articles on the list though so I don't know what the state of them is (the links on meta go to simple:). Thryduulf 19:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Withdrawn nominations

Nominations that have been withdrawn by the orginal nominator have been mentioned above. These have been speedily kept in the past, but do not fit either of the criteria. I think therefore that a third criterion is the only way to allow this. It would be along the lines of

"If the orginal nominator withdraws the nomination the article can be speedily-kept 24 hours later if there have been no objections to a speedy-keep, and no votes other than to keep the article subsequent to the withdrawal."

This is phrased very badly though, so if you can come up with a better wording or a better way of allowing them then please suggest them. Thryduulf 19:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you need such protections for a withdrawn nomination, as it's going to be kept instead of deleted and someone can just nominate it again. I would say that it should be speedily kept if there are no delete, merge or redirect votes before it is withdrawn, regardless of the time. I also think, in this case, only first choice votes should be counted (someone who votes "keep or merge", would be counted as a keep). I think there's to much focus on procedure on AfD. Some users complete other people's nominations even when they are non-sensical (no reason or nonsense reason and an obvious keep). -- Kjkolb 08:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Good idea; here's an idea to simplify

I think this is a good idea in spirit. Also, I would love to see this expanded to speedy actions in general. For instance, often articles are brought to AfD where the obvious solution is to redirect. Sometimes people go ahead and do this to no objection, but it is awkward that this is officially outside policy—it often comes with an apology of "being bold".

On the other hand, I think the proposal could be simplified substantially. What about something more along these lines:

• An AfD nomination that has reached unanimous consensus among three eligible voters for the outcomes keep, redirect or merge can be speedily closed and the tag removed. This does not apply to articles with a recent nomination that has been speedily closed.

Because we're not talking about deleting pages (something that is difficult to undo for non-administrators), there is little harm in not giving the article its "due process"--if it is unfairly kept, redirected, or merged, it can be relisted or the redirect/merge undone through the normal wiki system. A relist can't be speedied, so if there is actual contention, then there is an easy way to make sure the article stays on AfD for the full period.

Dealing with bad faith nominations should probably be done through the vandalism policy.

Generally speaking, I think it's better to give editors and administrators leeway to "do the right thing" when it's obvious, as long as we can minimize the potential for abuse. — brighterorange (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I like the simplicity of it. I also most certainly agree with the notion that having leeway to use common sense and do the right thing is preferable to having exact, rigid rules. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Friday (talk) 21:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Simple and unambiguous, just as a policy should be. No scope for abuse. I like it! --Celestianpower 12:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

• I disagree, for two reasons. First, we should never unlist a discussion from the AFD page, because then it disappears and hides the issue. Second, this method encourages swift voting rather than actually examining the case. It happens quite often that the first three votes go one way, and the next ten go the other way. Radiant_>|< 08:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• Sorry, I didn't actually mean that it should be removed from the AfD page, but that the tag be removed from the article (I guess I am using jargon incorrectly). I changed the wording. You're right that it does happen (usually from delete to keep after something like a rewrite), but again observe that very little harm is done if an article is speedily kept (or redirected, or merged) since the actions can be undone by regular users (by re-nominating, or regular editing). But unanimous AfDs are the norm, so I still think it makes sense to streamline the process. — brighterorange (talk) 13:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I like the simplification and common sense, but I'm uncomfortable using only three votes for anything but speedy keep, at least for now. You have keep, merge and redirect in the proposal, but that's a lot different than a speedy keep. If regular keeps, merges and redirects are added to the criteria, I suggest getting four or five votes, with the administrator using his/her judgment. There's always a few editors who vote to keep, merge or redirect almost anything. Three speedy keeps with no objections should be enough to close a nomination. Also, it must be made clear that speedy keep isn't the same as strong keep, though. Perhaps it should be seen as improper to vote speedy keep when it isn't warranted. -- Kjkolb 08:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Well, the number of votes isn't really what's important, so I'd support a proposal where the count was higher. (Or was specified that the consensus must be "obvious" or something.) But again, I'd like to remark that there is very little harm if a discussion is speedily kept/redirected/merged prematurely. Redirects and merges can already be carried out and undone by any user without voting on AfD, and a premature keep can be re-nominated for the full AfD. — brighterorange (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Objections

I have to oppose this speedy keep policy for a number of reasons. Firstly, anything that qualifies for criterion 1 can most often be deemed in bad faith or vandalism quite quickly, and if it is not so will most often be promptly revoked by the nominator upon receiving a message on their talk page. And that, is on the rare occaision that this high-profile articles are nominated for deletion.

Secondly, this is an unnecessary policy. Unnecessary policies should not exist. This has not been a huge problem on AfD, and I have little problem with an article having the AfD tag for a few extra days. The speedy deletion criterion are very clearly and concisely laid out, and there is a clear need for them. An article that is voted to be kept isn't going anywhere sitting on the AfD for a few extra days.

Thirdly, I believe this policy is too easily misconstrued, and will be subject to abuse.

] 09:54, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

• I also object on the basis of innecesary policy accumulations. Admins are expected to use common sense and given that wikipedia is not a democracy (WP:NOT) in such cases admins can just close the vfd as keep. I don't believe any sensible admin would delete Milk because an afd exists. -- (☺drini♫|☎) 14:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

• • Agree with objections above. Criterion 1 does not require new policy, and criterion 2 is a dream come true for trolls and rules-lawyers. --Tabor 18:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

It does seem to be an increasing problem on AFD. Just in the last few days there have been half a dozen sitcoms and two world-renowned violinists listed on AFD, all of which were speedily kept. I'm not sure the entire policy outlined here is necessary, but what we currently have at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Maintenance#Abusive, invalid or other nominations which are not in good faith is really inadequate IMO. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 10:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, people occasionally make a WP:POINT with spurious deletion nominations. That isn't new by a far shot. It usually results in the nominator being heavily criticized, and those nominations being kept (there was a controversial user earlier this year who would often get votes like 'keep because (name withdrawn) nominated it'). This is regrettable, but we do have mechanisms for dealing with it, e.g. WP:VAND. The problem with any forms of speedy-keep proposals I've seen in the past half year is that they are too easily gamable, since it happens all too frequently that somebody says "speedy keep, bad-faith nom" when in fact it is a good-faith nom that they strongly disagree with - sometimes even when consensus is already leaning towards deletion. Radiant_>|< 08:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
  • That may happen, but if four or five people (especially names familiar to me from AFD as being good, cooperative editors) have all said "speedy keep, bad-faith nom", and no one but the nominator has voted to delete, I think it's disruptive to have to keep the AFD tag on the article in question and leave the AFD itself open for further comment, which is what Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Maintenance#Abusive, invalid or other nominations which are not in good faith suggests we do. I really wanted to get the AFDs on Jascha Heifetz and Gil Shaham closed and the tags off their articles as quickly as possible, and not wait for five days, as if they were seriously being considered for deletion. It makes me sad enough that the {{oldafdfull}} template has to be on the talk pages of those articles. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 14:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
    • If a couple of regulars claim it's a speedy keep AND nobody but the nominator and/or sockpuppets disagree, then I'd agree that it could be speedily kept. But we have to be careful in wording this to avoid abuse. Really controversial nominations (and lengthy ones) tend to get a bunch of speedy-keep votes, but if they're controversial then they're by definition not speedy. I'd say that a single good-faith vote to delete invalidates a speedy-keep. Radiant_>|< 12:45, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree that a single good-faith delete vote is enough to keep an AFD discussion alive until its 5 days are up. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 13:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• I've refactored the page in an attempt to reflect the discussion above, and made the proposal less bureaucratic than it was.. Please change whatever you feel is necessary. Radiant_>|< 10:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

New proposal

There is a new proposal for deletion reform at Misplaced Pages:Deletion reform/Proposals/Uncontested deletions --Doc (?) 21:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The second clause

I notice that although reasons 1 and 3 for speedy keep have language to the effect that valid "delete" votes will prevent a speedy keep, reason 2 does not. Why is this? Even if the nominator is abusing AfD to request a move or a merge, I don't think that's enough reason to speedy-close a debate if there are actually people on the AfD seriously favoring deletion. Once an article on AfD recieves a single good-faith delete vote, it seems to me that it has been 'endorsed', so to speak, and the nominator's actions or opinions should no longer be a reason to speedy keep. --Aquillion 01:34, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Since nobody said anything, I went ahead and added such a clause... However, now that I look at it, I can come up with a simpler version of this proposal:

An AFD that, at any point, has no valid, good-faith delete votes (including its nominator) can be speedy-closed at any time.

That seems like a common-sense proposal, and would cover all the cases currently listed. --Aquillion 02:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to be being followed

An article that I made Planes of Existence (talker) was nominated for deletion the second that it was created. It then passed with a keep vote of 7/3 (all 3 delete votes being in the first 10 minutes of nomination). Less than a week later, it was renominated for deletion by newly created accounts with the aim to try to prove that their talker was better, and to justify vandalism, personal attacks and other disruptive behaviour. Yet it wasn't speedy kept. Why not? Because they used sock puppets/meat puppets to vote delete? Its a bad faith nomination and falls in to the category of WP:POINT yet I see it on its 3rd day of nomination, with nobody disregarding comments made by meat puppets with no editing history outside of vandalising that page and the one on "their talker", which they turned from a neutral article in to being an advertisement, without referencing any sources or having any attempt at neutrality - Crystal Palace (chat site). Why is this permitted? Surely it should be an automatic speedy keep in such situations. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 01:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Speedy keeping clear keeps

I just discovered this guideline (this might be because it is not mentioned in a lot of places and I do wonder how this got elevated to guideline status). I am wondering what people here think about speedy keeping AfDs that are clearly going to be kept, even if there is no suggestion that nomination was in bad faith. I did this with Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Liberalism and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Boolean logic. It does seem against the guideline, but I think that the practice is fairly widespread and I don't feel bad about it. Should I? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Not really. It's more a WP:SNOW than WP:SK, but the distinction is academic for most. Stifle (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Should this not be a policy?

Guidelines tend to be about behaviour and community standards. Policies tend to be about rules that should be followed. This looks more like a policy than a rule to me. Stevage 11:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

A policy should reflect the consensus. As I say in the section above, I have been using speedy keeps more liberally than Misplaced Pages:Speedy keep allows, unaware of that page but following what I think to be common practice, so I don't think the page reflects the consensus. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jitse Niesen, I think the guidelines listed are too rigid. I note a lot of people vote speedy keep when they see an article that just obviously needs to be kept and there are no delete votes. I do not believe these guidelines reflect consensus. Ifnord 13:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been wondering about this for a while, and finally found this. I'll frequently see people vote "speedy keep", or an AFD closed as "speedy keep", sometimes even when there are some delete votes (although the overwhelming majority are keep). I was under the impression there was some actual policy or guideline for articles that are "obviously" going to be kept. The prevalence of this phenomenon certainly suggests to me that the current guideline does not correctly reflect consensus.

Perhaps an additional criterion ought to be listed. One which describes a situation like: overwhelmingly keep, with few delete votes which do not really give reasons or are by people who do not seem interested in explaining their decision or following the discussion. --Chan-Ho (Talk) 01:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Applicability 1.4

"the nomination was clear-cut vandalism or WP:POINT and nobody disputes this or votes to delete it anyway"

I interpret this as meaning that if someone other than the nominator has recommended delete, then Speedy keep cannot thereafter be recommended and also if a Speedy keep had been recommended prior to the delete recommendation that the AfD cannot be closed as a Speedy keep. A delete recommendation is by itself an indication that the person making that recommendation thought that the nomination was not vandalism or POINT (unless it is itself also vandalism or POINT).

It has been argued that Speedy keeps can be recommended even if there are one or more delete recommendations beyond the one of the original nominator. I don't understand how that interpretation can come out of the above text. What do other people understand it to mean? Шизомби 16:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the original form of the guideline diff I think my interpretation is correct. Шизомби 21:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• I would tend to say that even if there are delete votes, sometimes a speedy keep is still in order, case in point . Perhaps we could extend it to votes that are making a point too? Not sure exactly. But I do know that keeping some AfDs open for the full 5 days would be a bad idea. --W.marsh 21:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• I think it's fine as-is. If an article should be kept, it will rarely end up being deleted. Having an AFD tag on it for five days won't harm it that much. Stifle (talk) 01:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Possible Guideline Addition?

Maybe I'm just noticing it more recently, but a number of articles have been coming up multiple times on AfD that have had recent AfDs concluded that resulted in a consensus keep. How would people feel about adding the following:

An article may be speedy kept if a recent AfD on the article concluded within the prior six months as a consensus keep.

This way, we're not wasting time with people AfDing articles weeks after a concluded AfD, and gives a proper buffer in the event that problems with the article a) have not changed, and b) can easily be demonstrated that they cannot change.

I also wouldn't want this applied to "No consensus" keeps, because there is no consensus. But speedy keeping articles that have already shown consensus to keep seems like a good idea to me. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 14:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• How about requiring renominations to include a reason that the circumstances have changed? For example, if, in the pervious AFD, the author asked to be given a chance to cleanup the article and it was not deleted, but then he never cleaned it up, that would be a circumstance warranting a new AFD. As an example, I point out the former List of sex symbols article. In the first AFD, the recommendations were 10-7 in favor of deletion. Four of the seven who suggested keeping the article said that their opinion was conditioned on trimming the list. No attempt was ever made to do so. I pointed this out in a second AFD and the article was unanimously deleted. That would be my suggestion - as a requirement for a re-nomination, the nominator should be required to state why either (a) circumstances have changed since the previous AFD or (b) the previous AFD is otherwise invalid (ie, sockpuppeting, etc, that the closing admin was unaware of). If no explicit justification for a second AFD is given, the article could be speedy kept. BigDT 06:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Solves nothing. What if the reasons are without merit? Besides, your example doesn't fall into this category, that would have been a no consensus close. This is only meant to affect consensus keep closes, which are assumed to be in good faith by closing admins. It certainly doesn't preclude DRV examination. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 11:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• See my similar proposal here , from last month. The response to date has been...underwhelming! Badgerpatrol 06:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• This isn't the same as the GNAA nonsense. This isn't to stop WP:POINT violations, but to remove the somewhat reoccurring debates on other articles that have been consensus keeps. I don't consider it creep at all, honestly. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 01:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This seems quite sensible. It's a way to avoid a "vexatious litigant" situation. The only reason I can see to have a second AfD shortly after a vote to keep is if the article deteriorates and, because it's covering a fast-moving topic, a reversion doesn't cure the problem. Runcorn 20:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Other reasons I've seen for fairly quick multiple nominations are:

• The first afd was too early to make a considered jugement (either consensus that this was the case or no consensus about e.g. notablity)
• The article has undergone sginificant changes during or shortly after an afd that resulted in no consensus.
• The first afd was a sockfest that made it very difficult/impossible to gain an accurrate consensus
• The first afd was closed as bad faith/a policy violation (e.g. WP:POINT or started by a banned user), but another editor has good faith reasons to nominate for deletion.
• There were technical issues with the first afd that made a consensus difficult/impossible to achieve.

IMHO there should be a lower bar to renominating when the first debate was closed as "no consensus" than for discussions closed early (other than for things like WP:SNOW or bad faith nominations), both of which should have a lower bar than for those debates closed with a consensus after the 5 dats. Any rule we create here should allow for exceptional issues though. Thryduulf 14:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

As this has been listed here for over a month, advertised at two village pumps, countless AfDs and DRVs, and does not appear to be at all controversial, is there any protest to my adding this to the guideline? --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I see BigDT, Runcorn and Thryduulf arguing above that there are valid cases in which a second AfD is reasonable even when it's less than six months after an AfD closed as a consensus keep. The language you propose implies that "a recent AfD on the article concluded within the prior six months as a consensus keep" automatically permits an admin to close the second AfD as a speedy keep. That does seem controversial to me. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 03:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Where? BigDT was talking about "no consensus" results, Runcorn supports it, and Thryduulf wasnot talking about consensus keep closes. What's controversial about it, considering the deafening lack of discussion about it overall? --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

BigDT was not only talking about "no consensus" results; it's just that the examples were "no consensus". Runcorn said "The only reason I can see to have a second AfD shortly after a vote to keep is if the article deteriorates and, because it's covering a fast-moving topic, a reversion doesn't cure the problem." Thryduulf says "Any rule we create here should allow for exceptional issues though", and for instance the first point (too early AfD) can easily apply to consensus keep closes. There are other valid reasons (for instance, new information surfaced). You chose not to reply to the issues they raised, so it's not surprising there was no discussion.

Do you think that AfDs followings on a previous AfD which concluded within the prior six months as a consensus keep should always be closed as a speedy keep? If yes, then that seems controversial to me. If no, then what about adding a proviso, like "An article may be speedy kept if a recent AfD on the article concluded within the prior six months as a consensus keep and no valid reason for the renomination is given." The word valid answers the point you raise in your answer to BigDT. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 05:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet BigDT had nothign else to say after it was pointed out that no consensus results were not part of this. Runcorn is in favor of this, and my answer to any sort of reasoning there is that an article should never be able to deteriorate that way - if it's worthy of an article, a rewrite is always possible. If we need the "valid reason" clause, I don't mind hashing it out, but it seems to be counterintuitive in my mind, and eliminates the reasoning for doing this.

I guess my puzzlement comes from why this is controversial now. Little discussion, no protest from my response, but it's controversial. Why do you feel it's controversial, since you're the only one at this stage with a continued protest? --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Still no thoughts? Does this mean we can move forward with this? --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps it's not as controversial as I imagined. I don't know; go ahead and we'll see what happens. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Does another speedy keep count as a consensus to keep? It shouldn't. — brighterorange (talk) 15:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It shouldn't. A speedy keep is based on something that occurs here in policy, not as a "consensus keep." If, and possibly when, this gets added, one would hope that the wording would include the article going through a proper AfD. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Speedy keep /= 6 months

I've removed the incorrect statement that any article having been nominated with a keep consensus the 6 months prior is an instant "speedy keep" candidate. I came across this statement in the guideline when I saw an AFD with a vote of "Speedy Keep" as per guidelines. It turns out that he added the 6 month guideline in himself.

I have nominated many articles successfully for deletion, a significant proportion of these articles have discussed and kept before, either due to a poor nomination, lack of votes or a meatpuppet scare. Sure, it's customary to leave some time between deletion nominations for the same article, usually over a month, but a hard 6 month speedy keep deadline is way too long.

AFD gets it wrong sometimes. That's why we have DRV, it's also why we don't have clauses saying that anything which has been kept 6 months prior is an automated keep. Although this example I give was of a "no consensus" style keep instead of a consensus keep, had the first nomination ended up as a keep, the second nomination would have been a speedy keep? Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vampirism Revolution Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vampirism Revolution (2 nomination)

I'm re-adding it per the discussion above. Feel free to discuss removal FIRST, the addition came with little controversy adn was widely advertised at the Village pump and various AfDs. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it may be bad form to nominate an article soon after it has already been nominated. But to close that off within a 6 month period as speedy keep is just wrong. - Hahnchen 14:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)