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Jews and Communism

• Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism
• Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (2nd nomination)

Jews and Communism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This page has its origin with Jewish Bolshevism, which discusses the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that Communism is a Jewish plot aimed at world domination. That page is expressly limited to discussion of the conspiracy theory; Jews and Communism seeks to offer evidence that the conspiracy theory is in fact true. This page offers a pastiche of statistics, anecdotes, and cherry-picked sources to show that people with Jewish ancestry were involved in various aspects of Communism, with special attention to the secret police and (in previous versions) the execution of the Russian Tsar. It frequently goes out of its way to emphasize connections between people of Jewish ancestry and finance. Parts of the article and its sources appear to derive from an article by a notorious holocaust denier .

The page is a mixture of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in support of a WP:ATTACK on an ethnic group through a WP:FRINGE theory. To present the color of neutrality, occasional disclaimers are sprinkled to remind the reader that not all Jews supported Communism, and that Jews were sometimes persecuted by Communists; thus a WP:FRINGE theory finds its way into Misplaced Pages by acknowledging that not everyone believes the theory to be completely true. The information offered here can more effectively be presented (where warranted) in more natural contexts; if the religion of Karl Marx’s grandparents is notable, for example, it might be discussed in his biography rather than here. The tone of the page, and of its supporters on the talk page and elsewhere, is deeply disturbing and the page threatens to deeply embarrass the project.

Created on 27 February 2014 , Jews and Communism has been a magnet for controversy and edit wars. It has already been at AN/I twice , and was the subject of an 8000-word discussion on Jimbo’s talk page . A previous AfD was closed without consensus. Directly relevant precedents include the deletions of Jews and Hollywood and Jews and Money . Some (apparently) reliable sources can always be found for any conspiracy theory, but Misplaced Pages should not host pages of evidence for Antisemitic canards. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC) MarkBernstein (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per "Blow it up", "notability" and "fork". "Reasons for deletion" allows reasons not enumerated such as "Blow it up." In this case the article was written in a manner that appeared to be anti-Semitic and large portions have in fact been copied to the anti-Semitic Metapedia article on Jewish Communism. If the article could be justified, it would be best to delete it and start again.

The article fails notability because no books or articles have been written about the topic. In the few cases where the subject is mentioned in reliable sources, it usually contains the statement that no studies have been conducted on this topic. Of course there are various articles about Jews and Communism in different countries at different times, for example Jews under Communism in Stalin's Soviet Union or Communist Jews in the United States between the two world wars. But nothing links them, making the article implicit "synthesis".

The article is a "Point of view (POV) fork" of Jewish Bolshevism, also called "Jewish Communism", which is the conspiracy theory that the Jewish people are behind the Communist movement. "Jews and Communism" takes the evidence that is used in anti-Semitic literature without explicitly stating the conclusion found in conspiracy writing. It is similar to having a 9/11 article that lists all the problems in the official version, without explicitly stating that the official version is wrong. But as every polemicist knows, a selective presentation of evidence can lead readers to a conclusion. For example the website "Republican sex offenders" which accurarately listed known Republicans who were sex offenders, had the implicit message that Republicans were more likely to be sex offenders than Democrats.

TFD (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

This article is not a POVFORK, explicitly according to the standing consensus on the Jewish Bolshevism article. The above claim is deliberate, dishonest misinformation. The Four Deuces should be sanctioned for disruptive conduct. On the one hand he established that this content is a separate topic from Jewish Bolshevism (to delete it there), on the other he has repeatedly pushed, over and over again, to have it deleted on grounds of being a "FORK" of that same article. That's really clear WP:TE with a goal to have the text deleted. And his repeated pushing of this point is WP:ICANTHEARYOU, as the user ignores, without fail, any posts that point out his own RfC at Jewish Bolshevism.

The argument regarding notability can be summarized as "even though there are hundreds of sources covering Jews and Communism, they focus on specific countries and therefore do not cover Jews and Communism". To say "no books or articles have been written about the topic" or that "no studies have been conducted on this topic" is dishonest, deliberate misinformation, and again an example of disruptive behavior.

The "nothing links them" argument can, in turn, be summarized as "because the sources do not say all Jews everywhere are Communists, we should delete this article". This article does not WP:SYNTH any conclusions, but merely goes into the topic of Jewish participation in Communist movements - precisely "in different countries at different times", as TFD puts it. That is not SYNTH under any definition.

Personally I can't imagine more contrived arguments. -- Director (talk) 08:59, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Essentially this is a WP:COATRACK for every Communist Jew of note, a POV nightmare because of its underplaying of the longstanding hostility between Jews/Judaism/Israel and Communists/Communist movements/Communist nations. Putting aside the rationalizations of its defenders concerning the scope of this article, what you have here is this: high school students will be googling "Jews and Communists," coming to this article, and getting this one-sided, incomplete, foul brew of WP:SYNTHESIS that in one of its earlier stages was proudly copied over to Metapedia. I don't believe the article has changed in any material way since then, nor do I believe that it is salvageable. Sure, we can retitle and reframe it, we can do the best we can with this trash. But when you come right down to it, this is just a variation on an odoriferous theme, very much akin to Jews and Hollywood and Jews and Money , which disgraced Misplaced Pages until they too were deleted. Coretheapple (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep, this is a valid article subject. Some points; 1) it is not an WP:ATTACK page (is it a crime to be communist? is it a crime to be Jewish?) 2) Not SYNTH, nor FRINGE, the subject is covered in well covered in scholarly literature. I advice to see http://www.cjh.org/videoarchivelist/1966 for some context. 3) No-one is saying that all/most Jews were communists, nore is there an argument that links communism to Jewish religion. 4) I was the first editor to express concerns about the initial versions of the page, but I think as rewriting have come along the quality has improved. Nevertheless, the WP:BATTLEGROUND attitudes have at times blocked qualititative progress. In my opinion we had a positive process until the recent canvassing. --Soman (talk) 21:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The theory that Communism is part of a Jewish plot for world domination is both anti-Communist and anti-Semitic. TFD (talk) 23:01, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • The point here would precisely be to separate between what is the anti-Semitic discourse (currently in the Jewish Bolshevism article) on one side, and the historical documented role of Jewish participation in the communist movement on the other. If we go ahead with deletion, we'll be back to square one with all material clogging up the Jewish Bolshevism article instead. --Soman (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Soman, I'm not going to try and hound you about this, but did you actually watch those videos? I did, and they are not about "Jews and Communism". In fact, many of the speakers mention the Jewish Bolshevism conspiracy theory. Some do state that there was a section of people who had Jewish ancestry that were important in some revolutionary movements. There is absolutely no consensus that "Jews and Communism" is "well covered in scholarly literature". If anything, the opposite is stated. Also, we have an article called the Jewish left. You add that article with the Jewish Bolshevism and Eastern European Jews articles and you have 90% of the video content. Dave Dial (talk) 23:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, I watched the three video segments. Your representation/interpretation is clearly not correct. --Soman (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete. I argued to keep the previous article because I was sure that it could be repaired. Subsequent vociferous activism at the article, ownership preventing proper repair, shows my earlier position to be an impossible dream. I am sad to see this state of affairs, where blowing up the article is the best available option. Please blow it up to prevent the article owners from having this victory of POV over balance. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete, I agree with everything the nominator has said. I compared the article from the Institute for Historical Review referred to with the original version of the WP article "Jews and Communism" and there is no question that the WP article simply copied large portions of the article by holocaust denier Mark Weber of the Institute of Historical Review. You can see the comparison at the article's talk page . The article has been substantially altered since its original state but at its core it is straightforward anti-Semitic propaganda that should be removed immediately.Smeat75 (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - The arguments made above by the users for deletion are all strong and I support their assertions. The article has its roots in the Neo-Nazi forum Metapedia, with large segments copied and pasted from it, and the article still using many of the same sources. It also leans heavily on an article published by the Holocaust denial organisation and hate group the Institute for Historical Review. There is some consensus to ”fix” the article. However, relying on many of the same sources as a piece of anti-Semitic propaganda, I struggle to see how this is possible. There has also been an argument put forward that, seeing as antisemitic groups had attempted to depict Communism as part of the Jewish World Conspiracy in the past, there is due weight to have an article showing that. However, that article already exists at Jewish Bolshevism. I also want to state that I have no bias against Communism itself and own many books on the topic of Marxism. However, that does not change the fact that this potential link between the Jewish people and Communist history has been used as an excuse for violence against the Jewish people in antisemitic propaganda, something that this article, as well as the sister article on Metapedia, reinforces --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete, anti-semitic WP:COATRACK. There is no causality between Jews and Communism, therefore the whole basis of the article being founded on blatant WP:SYNTH. The article is no more than a list of communists who were racially jews, but underlines a WP:FRINGE "connection" between jews and communism. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete - Parts of the current article can and should definitely stay on WP under at least two new articles that can be created utilizing this reliable material. But the name "Jews and Communism" and the history of the current article make it too close to the anti-Semitic canard article it is related to, and hinder further positive development of issues that do have a place on Misplaced Pages. The one I am personally interested in is the one that should retake some content of the current article from the perpective of Communist ideology and theory towards the Jewish religion and towards Jewish citizens of countries were Communist parties developed from the theory and became stronger. The second main article to be created from the blowing up of the current one could take the issue from the perspective of Jewish history and different views that developed within Jewish communities towards the new ideology and the developing political parties. warshy 22:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete -This article was made because the creator was told the material he wanted to insert into the Jewish Bolshevism(of which this article is an obvious WP:POVFORK) article didn't belong in that article. So, the creator made this article. Which was copied almost word-for-word and source-by-source into the White Nationalist encyclopedia, Metapedia.

Their article is named "Jewish Bolshevism". We already have an article called Jewish Bolshevism. It's about the Antisemitic canard blaming Jews for Bolshevism and the rise of Stalinism. We have those two articles too. We have dozens of articles concerning Communism.

History of communism History of Communist Romania, History of Communist Poland, History of Communist Bulgaria, History of Communist Albania, History of Communist Czechoslovakia, as well as articles about the history of Marxism, the Communist state, Revolutionary socialism, Trotskyism, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks and History of American Trotskyism

As well as dozens concerning Jewish people.

Eastern European Jews article is pretty vast. We also have articles about Jews in almost any nation. Jews of Poland, Jews of Germany, Jews of Spain, History of the Jews in Russia, Jews of Babylonia, Jews of Hungary, Jews of France, Jews of Italy, Jews of Greece, Cuban Jews, Jews of USA and more.

To connect all of these is synthesis and original research. As well as an attack page. No, not because Communism is 'evil'(although some do believe it is), but because attempting to correlate "Jews" with bringing about Bolshevism, and in turn placing the blame on them for both the rise of Nazism and Stalinism is. In other words, according to both before WWII and after WWII, attempts have been made to link "Jews" with Communism in order to convince people that it was not only their own fault that the Holocaust happened, but that they deserved it Ipso facto because of Stalinsm. So delete because it's synthesis, almost all of which is covered in other articles. To combine them into the "Jews and Communism" article is an attempt to legitimize the conspiracy theory. We have another article discussing the Jewish left, for those serious about wanting to contribute to an article at least partially about this topic. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - basically I agree that (sorry to be lazy and copypaste TFD's words but it's put plainly and clearly) 'The article fails notability because no books or articles have been written about the topic. Of course there are various articles about Jews and Communism in different countries at different times, for example Jews under Communism in Stalin's Soviet Union or Communist Jews in the United States between the two world wars. But nothing links them, making the article implicit "synthesis".' Sayerslle (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• EmphaticDelete as pure WP:SYNTH. It is a very clever antisemitic attack article.--Galassi (talk) 23:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete per TFD. The article seems to consist largely of synthesis, where it isn't directly derived from antisemitic sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete, primarily for reasons of WP:AND. That is a perfectly sensible policy that clearly should apply here. I voted the first time to delete and none of the changes made to the page warrant changing my vote. I disagreed with the closing editor's decision to declare it no consensus and voted to overturn his decision on review, but the result again was no consensus. The discussion, in my opinion, has shown that at least two thirds or more of the editors commenting on this article believe it should be deleted. Obviously a unanimous vote will never happen. I agree with much of the comments above, particularly in regards to issues with POV Fork, OR, and copyvio. I have yet to see any kind of adequate response to WP:AND. As the policy very specifically notes, there is no article about "Islam and Terrorism." I fail to see why the same logic should apply, even more strongly, to this article. Quite frankly this episode suggests to me that there are issues with the core policies of the project that I hope are addressed. mikeman67 (talk) 01:23, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per TFD who's summed it up nicely!. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete If there is scholarly evidence that the religion/ethnicity of certain people was a major influence on communism, add it to Communism. If there is scholarly evidence that communism was a major influence on Jewish people, add it to Jews. Commentary on whether communism is part of a Jewish plot to control the world belong at some other website, or perhaps Jewish Bolshevism. The first section of the article starts 'The German philosopher Karl Marx, often regarded as the "father of Communism", was of Jewish ancestry on both sides'—so where is Germans and Communism, and what about Philosophers and Communism? Johnuniq (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete Pure SYNTH. There may be sources that link Jews and Communism in the Soviet Union, but there are no sources that link Jews and Communism in general (in China for example). USchick (talk) 01:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep

As I said earlier. The article, just like the Jews in Hollywood article, is basically a factual description of the relationship, and its causes. There ,may be no specific causality between Judaism and Communism, but there is very much a causality between social and economic oppression, and participation in radical movements. The most oppressed will seek the most radical solution. At the beginning of the 20th century Communism was a viable option among revolutionary movements, though it was explicit from the start on that it was not compatible with any form of religious expression, or of national individuality.

To consider Jews and Communism only as an anti-Semitic canard is to condemn as a anti-semitic canard every possible expression or behavior of any Jews, for everything possible has been used against them. People who hate will seize on anything, and will associate the hated group with anything at all that is also the subject of hatred and prejudice. They will even use an association with something positive as an instrument of prejudice; "Jews and Music" will be used to imply that styles of entertainment some people may dislike are specifically Jewish, or alternatively, that the Jews are trying to subvert the profession. To refuse to discuss a topic because bigots have perverted it is dishonest, the triumph of inoffensiveness over honesty (and The encyclopedic approach is to consider the association between the many ethnic groups and the many aspects of society in an objective and historically sound perspective. There is no reason why anyone--in particular any Jew --should find anything shameful about the association of Jews and Communism in Russia, except the inability to foresee the future. Elsewhere, it becomes a question of the degree to which an individual felt economic oppression os the primary burden.

There is no SYNTHESIS in writing a general article. We need specific articles also, but there are commonalities across time and place. The determination of a people to redress its wrongs is a valid subject.

Most of my ancestors on one side of my family were Jews and Bolsheviks--at least up until a certain point in time, which varied. The ones in Europe were persecuted primarily as Jews; those in America primarily as Communists. DGG ( talk ) 01:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

"Das Judenthum in der Musik"' (German: "Jewishness in Music", but normally translated Judaism in Music; spelled after its first publications, according to modern German spelling practice, as ‘Judentum’), is an essay by Richard Wagner which attacks Jews in general and the composers Giacomo Meyerbeer and Felix Mendelssohn in particular. It was published under a pseudonym in the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik (NZM) of Leipzig in September 1850 and was reissued in a greatly expanded version under Wagner’s name in 1869. It is regarded by some as an important landmark in the history of German anti-semitism." --Misplaced Pages MarkBernstein (talk) 02:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? All you have here are absurd accusations of antisemitism that have no connection in reality. -- Director (talk) 08:45, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Mostly per TFD but also mikeman67.. it says something about this article's abhorrent quality that it met the qualifications of Metapedia. Flipandflopped (Discuss, Contribs) 02:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:TNT and also due to excessive WP:SYNTH. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 02:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep for now. Not commenting on the merits of the article, but I think it is an abuse of the system to renominate an article for deletion so soon after a well-attended deletion discussion and well-attended deletion review. Zero 03:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• You mean the same AfD that over two-thirds of editors stated to delete the article as a WP:POVFORK and the closer instituted his own WP:SUPERVOTE and stated - "Oy vey" there was no consensus the article was a WP:POVFORK? Dave Dial (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

That's what Deletion Review is for. That happened already. It is improper to nominate an article over and over to try to get the result you want. The correct response to a failed deletion attempt is to work on improving the article. Zero 04:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• In terms of fresh contributions to the article and the talk page, this isn't soon at all. When I checked on 6 May, I found that by the end of the AfD, just 8 editors had contributed to the article and just 5 to the talk page. Since then, 38 more had edited the article and 62 more the talk page. 48 people joined in the AfD (not counting the closing admin) and 59 people that didn't join in the AfD had (as of 6 May) made their first edits to the article or the talk page after the AfD closed. It's reasonable to expect many fresh voices here and fresh arguments informed by considerable discussion of policy, attempts to improve or rescue the article, research into the article's antecedents and more. NebY (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. Same reason as everyone else, really: TNT, NPOV, and SYNTH. This article connects Jews to Communism in a way that reliable sources simply don't. Like someone else said, Jewish left would be the non-POVFORK version of this article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Strong keep. Folks, you're being lied to regarding what the article is and what its about. The deletion rationale is an appeal to emotion, and is aimed to gather WP:VOTES on such a basis. Nothing in it is accurate nor factual. It ignores the cited sources and their focus on this subject; it ignores our own deletion policy. Beyond the emotional nonsense - there's nothing. Any closer inspection of the article and its source material will reveal there is no breech of SYNTH, NPOV, or NOTE. This article's conception is based on the widespread coverage of this specific topic in numerous reliable, scholarly sources. Its text is written through rigorous adherence to said sources. That's the gist of it: the nomination is a meaningless pile of hysterical accusations and arbitrary judgments by a very biased and very offended user, which is quite simply neither accurate nor honest in anything it claims. To go into detail:

• The list of ANI threads and such is farcical: users hoping to delete the article have been disrupting it since its first failed AfD, and now list their own disruption as a reason to try and delete it again.
• This article does not seek to offer evidence as to the accuracy of the JB conspiracy theory. No more than the numerous cited reliable sources that cover this specific subject. In fact, if anything, this article is our best bet to counter the conspiracy theory with the real facts behind the phenomenon that so many scholars have researched. This article, was, in fact, created from material originally intended for the Jewish Bolshevism article, but it was created only after that article was established as dealing specifically with conspiracy theories . JB covers the antisemitic conspiracy theory that Communism is a Jewish conspiracy. This article merely presents the sources covering the "involvement of Jewish people in Communist movements".
• There is simply no SYNTH or OR in this article, whatsoever. The article follows sources to the letter.
• This article is not an WP:ATTACK page: its just not, per policy. It is not the article - but the reliable, scholarly sources its written with that have "singled out" Jewish people and researched this topic. though its not really "singling out", its just scholars covering an aspect of the history of Communism.

Furthermore: such ridiculous accusations push forward a right-wing, practically Reaganite political agenda, in implying that communism is evil.

The article isn't perfect, and no article will ever be, but in its foundation, it simply follows the many reliable secondary sources that cover this specific topic. to see a legitimate, interesting, carefully and reliably sourced historical topic wiped out from our project on the basis of hysterical nonsense and voting - would be a sad day for our project. It would reveal it quite unambiguously to be, at its core, nothing more than an outlet for popular opinion, as opposed to a tertiary source of some value, capable of objectively tackling difficult subjects of scholarly research. It would be a prime example of "ganging up" on an unpopular article and deleting it through enough people shouting and repeating the same manifest nonsense.

P.s. Here's DD2K ("Dave Dial") openly talking all about how he wants to "win" a WP:VOTE by "embarrassing" the other side - and the closing admin - through quoting some wackjob's edits on Metapedia. Apparently if you want to have an article deleted, you should copy parts of it to some nonsense biaspedia and "embarrass" people into deleting it. For all we know, it might've been him, or any of the users hoping to get rid of this article. Either way, though, that's an obvious bit of WP:GAME right there. -- Director (talk) 06:06, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

For someone who is eager to paint this situation as one in which an appeal to emotion is outbalancing rational application of policy, you sure did make a fair number of personalized accusations there that have very little to with analyzing the content directly for consistency with said policies and a whole lot more to do with villifying your opposition as either blind to the obvious or actively involved in subverting process in the massively inappropriate ways. I wonder if you have any evidence you would like to provide for your assertions that A) involved editors have been canvassing off-wiki (as every editor who has commented so far was previously involved with the article, related discussions or could easily have come as a response to the AfD posting), or B) that editors have shopped this content around antisemitic sites for no other reason than to discredit your work -- a theory that, let's be clear, suggests they were so concerned about the possibility of antisemitism that they decided to promote some antisemitism. These are not trivial accusations, and should not be made without some compelling proof. Nor is this the first time which you have made such massive leaps in assumption of bad faith. You have also quite clearly misquoted another editor, seemingly intentionally, when you implied that DD2K was attempting to "shame" voters in order to influence the outcome of this process, when a look at that diff clearly indicates he was talking about how the previous voters should be "ashamed" (copular version of the verb referencing past events) of that decision.

I would seriously consider redacting these elements of your post, as they greatly diminish how likely the rest of your assertions are to be credited as the products of a mind with reasonable perspective on the subject of this article and because your long chain of uncivil responses to those who disagree with you on this matter (and on this project in general) is in itself a problem as large as this article and one that is not going to go unaddressed much longer. Indeed, as an outside editor who has not gotten involved with the article and its content itself looking in, it's obvious to me that, despite the fact that you are this article's main architect and biggest advocate, you are also its greatest liability and the main reason it is back in AfD so quickly. I very nearly called out those editors who asked for the full protection to be lifted long enough for this AfD to be filled; I figured the least they could do was wait the three days until the protection expired to make the assessment that the situation was hopeless. Then I reviewed the talk page again. I've avoided posting a delete vote for a variety of reasons; on the one hand, many of the policies, guidelines, and essays quoted above (WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:POVFORK, WP:FRINGE, and WP:COATRACK in particular) are clearly relevant to the page as it stands now, to varying degrees. On the other hand, I think this is a subject that ought to be viable for Misplaced Pages, from a sourcing standpoint, if it were approached in the right way. Unfortunately, your approach to editing (and in particular, to discussion) is so coarse, adversarial, and bombastic, it is no wonder at all that WP:TNT is being invoked over and over again. Now, having escalated the situation to AfD, you still can't foresee how ill-advised it is to apply conspiracy theories to those on the opposing side of the issue, in the context where they are accusing you of supporting a conspiracy theory. And consequently, it makes no difference if you believe others set out with the goal of bringing this article back to the point of deletion through whatever disruptive means they could muster because, even if this uncivil supposition were to bear out as correct (and you have no reason to believe it is really, and less evidence still to ever begin to prove it), then you are still short-sighted as you've given them exactly what they needed to accomplish this end -- a hot temper and complete disdain for your fellow contributors when their opinion deviates from yours in the slightest. Even, apparently, in cases of an 18:3 consensus.

Note: On the other hand, editors commenting here should really stop focusing upon where the article has been replicated at. It's a completely empty argument, policy-wise and has little or no relevance as to assessing whether the content is consistent with our guidelines. Let's also remember that Misplaced Pages is the free encyclopedia which we actively encourage others to use at their discretion, up to and including complete replication; that hate-mongering nitwits are amongst that massive collection of people who utilize our works is to be expected, statistically and it doesn't say much as to our circumstances here. Snow talk 09:37, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why you're focusing on one offhand comment so much, rather than the whole issue here. I'd like to request that you redact you comment regarding me being this articles "main architect". To all intents and purposes, I didn't write a word of it. I will remove my comment re off-Wiki canvassing, since (as in virtually all instances) there's no evidence of it.

There isn't much to say beyond "no, its just not so". The article isn't SYNTH, by definition - because it follows sources (who do all the alleged "synth", which makes it not-synth). Its not POV, again by definition - because it follows reliable sources who wrote all the alleged bias. Its not a POVFORK, by definition, since the other article explicitly excludes non-conspiracy content. Its not a COATRACK because it doesn't say a word about anything other than its topic. Again and again one must point out that its the sources that cover this subject, and in this manner. And I stand by my statement that in deleting this article we're hurting our project's main function: presenting secondary references, faithfully and exactly.

But it's not one off-hand comment, is it? It's a sustained (and for you as a contributor, defining) pattern of behaviour and it's not merely incidental to these proceedings; a good number of editors voting for deletion above have expressed here or elsewhere that they were initially infavour of trying to salvage the article, but find the process completely unviable because of your involvement. You needn't waste too much time responding to me in terms of the policies I feel apply, because I've already stipulated that I didn't vote for deletion because I have a very mixed view about whether the article could be salvageable in theory. The focus of my comments here is to try to elucidate the procedural obstacle at work. That obstacle is in the form of an editor who thinks, despite being reminded constantly to the contrary, that is is acceptable practice to speculate as to the general ill-will or rational shortcomings of those who disagree with him without any kind of evidence whatsoever. I won't belabour the point any further as its relevance to the AfD itself does not warrant any more attention, at least not from me, but this this behaviour has got to stop and, regardless of the outcome of the AfD, if it does not, further community action with regard to you is necessary and inevitable. Snow talk 10:18, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The essays cited are, in essence, arbitrary. Someone wishing to delete this article based on perceived antisemitism, or haviing been told "its antisemitism!" will be inclined to interpret the policy as liberally as necessary to get rid of it, even if it means stretching them beyond all reason (as in POVFORK, for example). Such terms are powerful, and they should be. Which makes it all the more worthy of our anger when they're used like this. -- Director (talk) 09:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Director, you say "To all intents and purposes, I didn't write a word of it." It's not obvious what you mean by "To all intents and purposes." Please could you clarify by stating whether you were involved in writing or reviewing any of this material before it appeared as an article in mainspace on the English-language Misplaced Pages? NebY (talk) 10:18, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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