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Revision as of 09:29, 1 July 2006

• Archive 1, May 2004-April 2006 - Discussions of criteria for inclusion, paticularly in relation to Abkhazia, Sealand, Northern Cyprus and Kosovo; please read before suggesting any changes in relation to these places.

Puntland

What about Puntland? It's de facto independent, although it does not lay claim to independence from Somalia.  OZLAWYER  talk  18:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

3RR

I notice a couple of disputes on this page have both come very close to breaking the Three revert rule within the last few hours; please use the talk page constructively to discuss changes. --Robdurbar 09:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

TRNC/Northern Cyprus

Can we have a discussion of this dispute here please? At least give a full explanation for the reverts being made, rather than using talk boxes? Even if you feel the proposed changes are pov or deliberatly in bad faith - note I'm not saying that they are or not, its not an area I know about - at least give a rationale here; it makes a mockery of the talk page if you do not --Robdurbar 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The dispute is whether we should mention:

• Nakhichevan which is an exclave (ie. non-bordering province, NOT a country) of Azarbaijan (which has not recognised TRNC as a federal government), and is bordering Turkey (possibly threatened for its continuous sovereignity)! If we start including exclaves, provinces, oblasts, perfectures and municipalities to the list, then it's ok by me.
• Organization of the Islamic Conference which recognises only the Muslim Community of TRNC (as if anybody wouldn't); NOT the pseudo-state of TRNC. The source is within the official site, to which Erdogan (sorry) User:Erdogan Cevher was kind enough to provide us (OIC), but it is not linkable. Evidently in every conference, there's a list of members (that excludes TRNC) and a separete heading (titled Muslim Communities), that includes Muslim Community of Kibris (Cyprus). Also, please check the members-list in the WP article.
• Turkish Peace Action in the wording to replace Turkish invasion. Had it been a "peace action", Turkey would have taken the Nobel Peace prize, instead of international non-recognition.

That's about it. Any comments?  NikoSilver  17:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• The Above is wrong: Reference: "Alithia" Newspaper of Greek Cypriots, 16/17 May 2006 (Author: Andreas Fantis, Title of the article: "Is there any hope about the solution of Cyprius Issue"). Andreas Wrote:

Turkish Cypriot State was honorized by the decision of the last meeting of OIC and will participate the meetings of OIC not with the title "Muslim Community of Cyprus" but with the title "Turkish Cypriot State" from now on.

NikoSilver, please read newspapers of your own country. Also, use your real name and surname. Don't hesitate doing this. Stay behind your ideas (even if yours are false). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erdogan Cevher (talk • contribs)

The fact that people were being killed by Greeks does not stop it being an invasion; as noted before, D-Day was an invasion; the US/Brits invaded Iraq, rightly or wrongly, even if it was to stop Saddam's killing, even if it was for oil, or revenge, or whatever; its still an invasion. Robdurbar 15:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Peace action does seem a very odd word for an invasion... even if you're looking from a Turkish pov. OIC seems a civil society body (though your WP:BEANS link confuses me somewhat). And as for exclaves - well we've not included them up to now so unless it makes claims to countryhood, again, I'd be inclined to agree (though this is all without knowing or going into the situation in detail, so don't take my view as too comprehensive). --Robdurbar 19:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! The WP:BEANS has to do with someone inserting some kind of information is some article... Sorry for thinking that the above was self-explanatory and not getting in the trouble to discuss...  NikoSilver  20:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah...what he said. ;) Khoikhoi 20:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was set up in northern Cyprus after the Turkish Peace Action on Cyprus in 1974 due to a local Greek Cypriot coup d'etat to overthrow the government and to unify the island with Greece. It was proclaimed the Turkish Federated State of Cyprus in 1975. This state later declared independence under the current name in 1983. It is recognized by Turkey, and the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. TRNC was accepted as "Turkish Cypriot State" by the Organization of Islamic Conference. TRNC and Republic of Cyprus are on the threshold of being separated like Checkoslovakia = Check Rep + Slovak Rep after the rejection of United nation's Annan Plan by Greek Cypriots. Note: Annan plan aimed at reunification of island.

"Turkish Cypriot State" by the OIC.(Ref:Web of OIC: http://www.oic-oci.org/), click “About OIC”, then click “Observers” to see that TRNC is under the “States” heading with name “T. Cypriot State" 2. Nakhichevan recognizes TRNC. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/Nakhichevan under the “Disputes” heading.

The issue of Peace Action / Invasion? How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks before 1974? Answer: Thousands of Turkish Cypriots (more than 100000) and hundreds of Greek Cypriots before 1974. (That is why the population of Greeks in the island well exceeds that of Turks in the island)

How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks after 1974? Answer: Total number does not exceed 5 from both sides.

Then, How a man having brain can claim that Turkish action is an invasion? That action is certainly a peace action and stopped deaths from both sides.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Erdogan Cevher (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your input. Your complains can be addressed to Kofi Annan.  NikoSilver  13:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Interstingly Nachkivan did reciognise North Cypriot sovereignty ; now whether it has the right to do so or not is highly debatable under international law as only other sovereigns are allowed to recgonise sovereignty; but these rules are not set in stone of course. I feel that this might be worth a mention. The OIC is a civil society actor with even less right to recognise sovereignty; this one is more disputable I think, especially as some appear to claim that it is the people who are represented here, not really a state.

• An invasion is an invasion whatever its purpose. Peace action is a modern euphamisim – we didn’t have a Peace action did we?

• I think talk about coup d’etats etc. is a bit over the top and uncalled for here; let the TRNC page deal with that itself.

• Not quite sure about the Czech Republic analogy… this is opinion this bit.

So how about:

The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was set up in northern Cyprus after the Turkish invasion on Cyprus in 1974. It was proclaimed the Turkish Federated State of Cyprus in 1975 and declared independence in 1983. It is recognised only by Turkey, though the non-sovereign Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic has also recognised it. UN proposals to unify the two Cypriot states have since been unsuccessful.ط

Robdurbar 14:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Rob for your kind attempt for a compromise in this. Though not necessarily disagreeable, I think that:

• Nakhichevan is legally a province or something analogous.
• OIC we agree (thanks)
• UN mentioning is ok by me, --added.

I strongly believe that extensive analyses are not applicable in this "List of..." and strongly suggest that further details are covered in the respective articles (which is already true).

Fmore, keep in mind that there is only one user doing these reverts lately, who turns out to be a revert addict.  NikoSilver  14:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed entirely; the TRNC entry was preivously much shorter than the others anyway and I don't see a need to add more than we have now; it can be tempting sometimes to ignore the contributions of those who refuse to play ball with the wikipedia process but a couple of interesting points were raised, even if it was from a pov manner. --Robdurbar 23:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. To add to your point, if we start elaborating the Turkish POV (on exclaves, civil society orgs, Turkish Peace action etc etc), then under WP:NPOV#Undue weight, imagine what the emphasis/size of the Greek POV and the International POV should be. After that, we'll need to rename the article to ]...  NikoSilver  23:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

And btw, I agree to this change of yours too.  NikoSilver  16:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I just saw that there were three more attempted reverts by User:Erdogan Cevher, despite the talk, despite the sources, despite the agreement of the other editors and after 3 or 4 blocks for WP:3RR. I don't know if the rest of the editors agree, but I think that this behaviour has crossed the border of WP:POINT. Waiting for your comments and possible action.  NikoSilver  15:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I seriously considered obtaining a Misplaced Pages:RfC on his behaviour; I thought I'd let him get himself banned for antoher 3rr first, however, in the hope that an extended ban might show him how to edit / put him off the topic. In the event of an extended period of 2 reverts a day, then I think we could go further with this. --Robdurbar 21:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Just check also this in the intro par of Cyprus...  NikoSilver  22:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I've reported Erdogan for 3RR again - that'll be the fourth 3RR block for him within 5 days. Guess they'll make it a longer one this time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Wanna bet a beer he's gonna do it again?  NikoSilver  09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, weren't you the guy who recently complained you didn't get to perform enough justified reverts? ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! Everybody needs his dose here I guess! Oh, and we have a second attempt in Cyprus in case someone is collecting evidence for that WP:POINT vio. And how about that name Erdogan?  Karamanlis! 09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Eh, let's be fair to the guy - "Erdoğan" is just very common in Turkish, both as a first and a family name. Let's not make fun of that, it may very well be his real name. And I'm not quite getting what you mean by WP:POINT? He's just edit-warring, that's a different kind of thing, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know that many Turks to have encountered the name before. I always thought it was a surname and it seemed to me like it wanted to sound more like the PM of Turkey. Point stricken.

Now for the other thing: He's not just edit warring. We have invited him repeatedly in the talk, but appart from the somewhat irrelevant comment above, we have received no further response to what 4 editors here (and a couple more outside the talk) seem to consider logical and obvious. We only communicate through edit-summaries, where we reply that OIC is a civil society org, and that Nakhicevan is a province, and that peace action (!!!) is peculiar wording for invasion, but he responds with the same irrelevant argumentation. He further expanded his POV to Cyprus. What can we do after 3-4 3rr blocks he's already had? I am sure there will be more, and that there won't be any comment whatsoever here, because the thing is so obvious (even for blind or uninformed) that at first I and the other counter-reverters didn't even want to discuss it formally. I don't know how you call this, but I definitely think it is disruption of WP.  NikoSilver  23:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, no doubt that the blind edit warring is disruptive, absolutely. After all, that's why we're getting him blocked all the time. But WP:POINT is really about something else in my understanding, it's about subtle ways of disrupting by doing something you don't really mean, like AfD'ing good articles in order to demonstrate how other people's AfD criteria are wrong, that kind of thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok Mr."Syntax Error", maybe you're right. Let's see where that goes... NikoSilver  11:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

State of Palestine

What is the official status of Gaza strip after the withdrawal of Israel in 2005?

I believe that the both the PNA and the UN take the official position that Gaza is still under Israeli occupation. (Israel controlls the water supply, airspace, and territorial waters, for instance). The West Bank and Gaza aren't universally recognized as being under anybody's legal sovereignty. I'm pretty sure that Egypt never officially annexed Gaza, and nobody but Britain recognized Jordan's claims to the West Bank (which Jordan has now renounced anyway).

As somone said above, lists aren't places of in-depth analyses, but I do think the Palestinian issue needs a bit more of an in-depth treatment here. The "State of Palestine" declared in 1988 was in essence a "government in exile", as all of the territory it claimed was under Israeli control (and much of it under UN-recongized Israeli sovereignty) at the time. My understanding was the that PLO assumed the role of this government in exile at this point. The Palestinian National Authority was set up in 1994 to administer areas that have varied in scope after the Oslo Accords. The PNA was clearly intended to be an embryonic Palestinian state, but as we all know the agreements that would have been necessary to bring that state to term never happened. Instead, the PNA started acting more and more like a state (it has elections, government ministries, issues passports, accredits ambassadors) but never declared itself to be such. I think that there is a distinction between the Palestinian National Authority on the one hand and the PLO and the notional "State of Palestine" on the other. Up until this year, this distinction was largely theoretical, as the same people were running both entities, but it became less so when Hamas, which I believe is not part of the PLO, won the legislative elections there.

Anyway, the whole thing's a mess, and I'm not sure of all the details. Still, the current blurb doesn't even explain the situation on the grown in Gaza or the WB, which I know is a contentious subject, but still. How about the following?

• The State of Palestine was declared in 1988 and recognized by a series of Arab and Muslim countries. Since 1994, the Palestinian National Authority has provided government some services to and exercized military control of parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, though it has not declared itself to be the government of an independent state. (See also proposals for a Palestinian state, Palestinian territories, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Israel all of which include articles about areas in the Palestine region.)

--Jfruh (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds about right. --Robdurbar 23:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Messing with the system

This talk-page has been vandalised in order to justify an allegged consented version of the article! A relevant note has been posted at WP:ANI#List of unrecognised countries for further investigation.  NikoSilver  10:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)