Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:00, 28 June 2006

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Archive 1 of previous discussion

MEDIATION UPDATE: I have listed three suggested compromises at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-21 John Bowlby#Compromise offers; one on the inclusion of attachment theory in this article, one on the external links and one on Wikiquette. Please read through them and indicate if you support or oppose them (and if opposing, why).

Mediation

Hi all, I am here to try and be an impartial third party to help resolve this dispute. From what I see, the disagreement exists regarding the content in the biography and the sources used. In the space below, could each side present their own opinion on what they believe is necessary for the article. Please remember to refrain from personal attacks. Hopefully we can reach a compromise! Brisvegas 07:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

A few points to consider:

• A user's membership of any group should be irrelevant, so don't ask one another about this. At Misplaced Pages we strive to have a neutral point of view in our articles. Obviously, precedence is given to theories that have wider acceptance over fringe theories, which may be covered in less depth or not at all.
• Biographical articles should be just that - articles focussing on the lives of people and their contribution to society. Their actual contribution should be covered in depth at its own article.
• Regarding external links, here are the ones to avoid:

1. Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, unless it is the official site of the article's subject or it is a notable proponent of a point of view in an article with multiple points of view. (See WP:RS for further information on this guideline.)
2. In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.
3. Links that are added to promote a site. See External link spamming.
4. Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.
5. Sites with objectionable amounts of advertising
6. Sites that require payment to view the relevant content
7. Sites that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content unless (1) it is the official site of the subject of the article (2) the article is about those media, or (3) the site is being cited as a reference.
8. Foreign-language sites, unless it is the official site of the subject of the article or it contains visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables. (See WP:MOS-L for further information on this guideline.)
9. Bookstores. Use the "ISBN" linking format which gives readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources.
10. A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article). If it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article.
11. Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.

(Source: Misplaced Pages:External links)

With this in mind, let's begin!

A couple of questions/comments before beginning:

Has the mediator seen the (unsigned) comments added by DPeterson to the mediation request? Some are slanderous/libelous (false and defamatory).

Is there anyway to archive the talk page before this section? I get Wiki messages that the page is longer than is recommended, and scrolling through it is a real pain.

Could the Bowlby page be moved to the talk page until mediation is over? It was suggested that it is a "less drastic" than engaging in an edit war. I tried clicking "move", but was informed that I was "too new" a user to be allowed to do that.

Thanks for jumping in. I hope not to give you cause to regret doing so! Sarner 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I do hope you can resolve this so that useful and related information can be left on the page. I wonder what Brisvegas thinks about and has to say about the comments Sarner continues to make. They seem off point to me. Removing the Bowlby page is just another "ploy" to avoid addressing the issue. The original page, before Sarner's reverts, might be a place to start. I wish the Mediator would inform Sarner to stay on point and avoid the negative personal comments he's previously made (see above). Thank you for your assistance, I remain hopeful. DPeterson

Responses for Mediator

From my view, the article I originally edited was mere advertising. There was a small biographical section, followed by a much longer section touting therapies for children "based" on attachment theory.

There were factual objections to the claims for these therapies, and offered material to counter those claims for balance. Those were reverted.

I realized then that the entire therapy section was inappropriate for a biographical article. So I came on the talk page with a suggestion as a compromise that the therapy section be eliminated altogether. In conjunction with that, certainly links and bibliographic references would also be eliminated as irrelevant. The compromise fell flat with the other side.

So I instead improved the section in question by adopting NPOV as much as I could and adjusting the bibliography, Wiki references, and external links. That drew the battle lines with the other side, with the article flipping between two irreconcilable worldviews, though the other side has the upper hand with the three-revert rule and their version is the one that is up most of the time. (I was reverted within two minutes.)

In a remarkable development, inter alia, the other side merged our two competing versions, which made a complete mish-mash! I see that today one of those on the other side is attempting to remove my material from their version and return to their original.

Along the way, an apparent third-party editor contributed more biographical material. Prose-wise, it wasn't very good, and it had some factual errors, but I incorporated it into my version and have been improving it slightly with each of my reverts. A couple of other editors have also made improvements that I have preserved in my version. Until recently, those improvements have been ignored by the other side and reverted along with the disputed section.

Discussion has failed. I have tried and tried to discuss on the talk page my view and objections, but have gotten nowhere. The vitriol from the other side has steadily risen, except when they have fallen totally silent, usually in response to a demand that they present evidence for their statements.

I do not see any way to reconcile the two versions. I think my present version would achieve more consensus, has better prose and more accurate information, and most importantly is most congruent with Wiki policy (particularly NPOV), than the present version by the other side. I am hoping the mediator (or any other unaligned third party) can see some way that I don't.

Sarner 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Sarner continues to delete accurate and useful information that a consensus of contributors seem to want to see on this page. Sarner does not seem to be an expert in this area. As previously described, he is a "zealot" with a specific agenda to push. I think his postion as Administrative Director of ACT, among other things makes that clear. Material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice is interesting and relevant to readers.

Rudeness abounds. The mediator asks for each side to separately state their case, and I am not allowed to state mine without comments being inserted. C'mon, guys, if you want to make this point: (a) sign it; (b) put it in your own section. Why don't you instead spend your time responding to the mediator's request, and let's get on with it. Sarner 22:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Again off point by being critical of irrelevant points. Why don't you just stay on topic and address the question raised by the mediator, why you think material on the practial applications of Bowlby's attachment theory does not belong here. DPeterson

We can reconcile the two versions by allowing readers to see material that is about Bowlby and how his theory has such broad applicability and utility. D Peterson

I think there is certainly room and opportunity to find a mutually agreeable solution and I am quite willing to compromise as, I suspect, others are too, although I should not speak for them. DPeterson

Mediator response to above

Perhaps it is too early to start addressing each other, since you are all heavily emotionally involved in this article. Before any more comments are made, please remember this:

• To Sarner: Moving the article to the talk page is not a good idea. Let's work out the issues out on the talk page. Having an article is better than having no article at all. If you feel certain comments are defamatory, point them out and they shall be deleted.
• To DPeterson: Labelling Sarner a "zealot" is not productive, and borders on personal attack. I realise both sides feel strongly about this issue, but we must realise that at the end of the day, what both sides want is a balanced and fair article that does justice to John Bowlby. Keep this in mind.
• To everyone: Attack the contributions, not the person.
• Regarding the section on Bowlby's theory in practice:

I went to several biographies to see what information they contained on the current applications of the theories of their originators:

• • Albert Einstein: A featured article which discusses his research but there is no section on the use of his theories on practice.
  • Wright Brothers: While it mentions their pioneering efforts in achieving flight, the article does not discuss the impact of their work on modern flight.
  • Sigmund Freud: This article on a fellow psychologist does include a rather long section on his legacy.
  • Carl Jung: The article on another psychologist does include a section on his influence on modern psychology. However, it is short and one paragraph long.

In other words, there are precedents for both sides of the argument. There should be a section on the influence of Bowlby's theory on modern psychology. However, most of the analysis of the theory should occur on the attachment theory page. Most importantly, any comments on the theory must be referenced from reputable sources, such as the American Psychological Association.

• Regarding linkspam:

These two sites http://psychematters.com/bibliographies/bowlby.htm and http://attachment.edu.ar/bio.html seem notable enough to include in an external links section. One is maintained by Dr. Juan Carlos Garelli of the Buenos Aires History of Science and Epistemology Research Center while the other lists a bibliography of Bowler's works. In such a case, I would refrain from calling these linkspam.

Whatever eventuates from our discussions, please remember to be civil to one another. Don't call one another zealots or rude. Leave all your previous interactions with one another in the past, as difficult as it sounds. Only after this occurs, can meaningful progress be made. Good luck! Brisvegas 00:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me. It seems that what is on the page now under Practice comes close to what is between the Jung and Freud bio's. However, if you think a shortened version would be a more acceptable compromise, I certainly would be willing to consider that. The use of reputable sources and materials from professional-peer reviewed journals and professional organizations (such as APA, NASW, etc.) also seems reasonable and a criteria that I've been adhering to.

DPeterson 01:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

There are other, relevant comments on the mediator's talk page that I would like to add here, if that is ok...if the mediator prefers some other linkage, that's fine too. DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I leave out the negative or personal attacks as not being relevant:

1. ::Discussion of how Bowlby's theory is used in practice seems very relevant as it shows how influential he has been and remains.

Aweidman

2. ::I'd like to see Sarner leave the article alone or merely add what may be relevant material and let other reader's comments guide the growth of the material. It is my belief that material on the use of Bowlby's theory in practice and attachment theory is relevant here. Including links to other Wiki articles that are mentioned in the Bowlby article also seem relevant and appropriate. Links to outside pages that describe material are also relevant. While Sarner calls all this SPAM, I disagree as these links provide additional information to readers. MarkWood

3. ::Leave the material in about how Bowlby's attachment theory is being used by practitioners. As a practitioner and licensed mental health professional I believe I have some knowledge and expertise to offer. I've published articles in professional peer-reviewed journals, edited a book, and use, among other methodologies, an approach that is evidence-based and has been supported by a number of prominent professionals in the field. Furthermore, there have been several publications about this approach in peer-reviewed professional journals, it has been accepted as material worthy of presentation at various professional organization annual conference, and has other support. I mention this only to point out that I am knowledgeable about this topic, subject matter, and article. ..but this may not be relevent to the direct question: Should information about how Bowlby's attachment theory is used in practice be in an article about Bowlby. To that question, I would say it is relevant (and others seem to say so too). AWeidman

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I stated on the mediation page: Leave the edits alone and allow readers to read about Bowlby's attachment theory as applied in practice today to successfully help very disturbed and damaged children DPeterson

DPeterson 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Sarner comments on mediation

1. With regard to linkspam, I am the one who included the two sites mentioned in the article. I at least do not regard them as linkspam. The spam to which I referred were initially in the bibliographic references, such as AWeidman's book, which is tangential at best to Bowlby as a subject. I still don't agree with linking to the DDP article as appropriate in this article.

2. I am omitting discussion of AWeidman's claims because it might skirt too close to the boundaries of wikiquette. In doing so, however, I am not conceding any claims made therein, and in particular that he has any special status or knowledge with respect to this article.

3. I dispute DPeterson's assertion that the links I find objectionable "successfully help very disturbed and damaged children". That unsubstantiated claim underscores my continuing argument that such links are actually advertising.

4. I have supported the compromise proposals listed on the mediation page.

Sarner 05:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I just have a few questions:

1. Which links were you precisely referring to when mentioning linkspam? I misunderstood the links you mentioned as being irrelevant - my apologies.

2. Thank you for accepting the points of compromise, but in light of the fact that I misunderstood which links were the cause of controversy I will probably need to make a new point of compromise.

Thanks for your co-operation, let's see what the others have to say. All the best, Brisvegas 05:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It was awfully hard to follow the arguments in the (now archived) talk page, I realize, and at least my use of wiki jargon may have been confusing to an experienced wikipedian such as yourself. Really, what my objections had been based on was my opinion that the appearance of certain references -- text in the article, references in the "see also" section, and entries in the bibliographies -- which I regarded as advertising when appearing in this article. I tried removing them, but as the edit war developed, I added some of my own as an attempt to balance. (The external links you discussed earlier were not part of either attempt, but the only ones I found on the web that discussed Bowlby at some length. I am not a Freudian -- in fact, an opponent, given the scientific consensus in psychology -- but the two did seem authoritative enough in a Freudian context to warrant reference in this article.)

Anyway, it would probably open up old wounds to mention them specifically again here. If we continue here in the spirit of your proposed compromise #1, this part of the controversy will probably resolve itself, or at the very least become a proper subset of the larger dispute.

Larry Sarner 13:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

COMMENTS ON MATERIAL

I can fully support the principels the Mediator listed and concur.

While I might prefer the original version prior to Sarner's deletions, the page as edited by DPeterson could be fine as it is brief and to the point. So, I "vote" for this version to stay.

I dispute Larry Sarner's assertion that the links he found objectionable do not "successfully help very disturbed and damaged children". The statement has been and is substantiated and is not advertising in any way. There are several articles published in professioal peer-reviewed journals about Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, books on the subject, and presentations at selective national professional organizations. Therefore, it has a place along with Theraplay, Dr. Marvin's material, Dr. Dozier's, and others.

MarkWood 15:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Movement

I congratulate DPeterson on making some big movement toward consensus. I still have some very great concerns which prevents me from saying we are at the end. Yet, what this has done is isolate the area where our disputes still lay.

In the same spirit, I will do some "clean-up" of the article, leaving the disputed parts alone for now, just so we can put any other difficulties to rest.

I will come back later with a detailed argument of my substantive disagreements and we can focus on that.

I thank the mediator for helping us get to this point and urge him to stick around and continue to help with the future sticking points.

Larry Sarner 18:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Positive Changes

The article is very good. I like that it is concise and at the same time detailed. It's focus on generally recognized approaches and the distinction it makes with regard to coercive methods is good. I vote for this version. I hope that now we can agree. It appears that all sides have moved and will probably have to be satisfied with a version that does not meet either sides preferences...that may be the standard for a good compromise! I hope that no one becomes so rigid that there is no room for compromise and that it becomes, again, a matter of "my way or the highway." That is my hope.

Lieberman citation & use of quotes

She uses the term Parent-Child Psychotherapy in her writings (see, for example, Disorders of attachment in infancy. Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America, 4, 571-587 (1995) or "Infant-parent psychotherapy" in C.H. Zeanah (Ed) Handbook of infant mental health NY (2000). Others don't use quotes in describing various approaches, so not sure that quotes are appropriate here around the terms used by various authors, such as floor time or circle of security project.

Regarding the Selected Bibliography

Hi everyone. Congratulations on the substantial progress made so far. I wish all mediations could be as painless! With regards to the bibliography, I suggest that we remove the following references and instead merge them into the attachment theory article:

• Greenspan, S. (1993) Infancy and Early Childhood. Madison, CT: International Universities Press. ISBN 0823626334.
• Holmes, J. (2001) The Search for the Secure Base. London: Routledge. ISBN 1583911529.
• Siegler R., DeLoache, J. & Eisenberg, N. (2003) How Children develop. New York: Worth. ISBN 1572592494.

The books mentioned above are more concerned with attachment theory itself rather than John Bowlby and his original work into the concept. Therefore, they must be moved to the attachment theory article. Should you have any objections, please say so below. Ciao, Brisvegas 07:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It has been done. Brisvegas 10:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I note that the pages for M. Klein, S. Freud, and J. Piaget all contain references about their work, so the reference by Holmes may actually be relevant and appropriate. This can be discussed.

However, I have another question, it's not a big deal, but as an impartial mediator aren't you supposed to collect views and propose solutions and not make unilateral changes? Your suggestions for the references have only been up here a few hours and you may want to solicite comments and ideas for several days/weeks before making changes based on concensus and some majority of thought expressed. I certainly don't check wikipedia every day, but maybe others monitor things more closely. Maybe I misunderstand your role, duties, and responsibilities? Please clarify. DPeterson 16:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. If you look at the date stamps of my two comments, then you'll see that the proposal was up for several days before I changed anything. Regarding your question, I am indeed trying to be impartial. If you disagree with the decision to export those links into the relevant article i.e. Attachment theory, then please tell me. However, I would be surprised if this decision were to cause controversy, since the premise of only including references relevant to the topic at hand is a well-known one, e.g. although Einstein described the formula E=mc², which is used in nuclear physics, this doesn't mean that his article should contain references to books written by others about the atom bomb and its uses. If you believe I acted against consensus, then my apologies. Remember, this action can be easily undone; should a majority of people wish those links to return, then they will be restored. I hope that addresses your concerns. Brisvegas 06:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All I see is the history page noting the editing of the talk page with a June 1 date. I just thought that before making changes you'd want to get opinions for a while. I note that the pages for M. Klein, S. Freud, and J. Piaget all contain references about their work by others, so the reference by Holmes here about Bowlby's work may also be relevant and appropriate. I just think some discussion or conducting a survey and time for comment may be in order since this is not a black/white issue and there is room for divergent thoughts. Best regards, DPeterson 12:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Case closed?

Hello everyone! I must admit, it's been impressive to see how cultured and rational everyone has been of late, and it certainly augurs well for this article. By the way, I have read through the entire article and it actually strikes me as rather interesting - I had never even heard of Bowlby or attachment theory before taking up this case! So thanks for teaching me something.

Since the situation has calmed down considerably, I am considering closing this case. Do you all feel the article is ready for this, or would you like me to hover for a bit longer? In the future, if you are split over an issue you can always seek a third opinion from an impartial third party. Good luck, and thanks for the opportunity! All the best, Brisvegas 01:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Looked fine to me a while ago and this version is ok, although the references could be expanded; but for the sake of peace it's fine to leave as is. The article is concise and quite relevant. It does a very good job as a brief bio sketch of Bowlby and his very important work.68.66.160.228 11:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I'm back. I was gone for a couple of weeks because of family emergencies (medical and property), but I'm ready to take on the differences I have with the current version of the article. I still have to review what has transpired while I was gone before I can propose my changes for consensus-building. In the meantime, I hope the mediator will stay with the case; I suspect the article will need him. Larry Sarner 17:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I will be away for about ten days, so I will appreciate the mediator not making any changes. I still have a question about the deleted references, but we can try to reach concensus on that when I return if there is to be any further discussion. The current version is excellent and represents a good compromise and I see no need for further mediation as the responses so far have all been favorable. While there are parts that I would prefer included that were removed, I can accept this current version without those sections as this version now stands. I beleive we are now done. Thanks for your time and attention DPeterson 18:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Wiki references

I am in total accord with the mediator's changes while I was gone, and especially with his reasoning.

Similarly, I think the two references in the "see also" section (is there Wiki jargon for that?) to specific interventions, ie, DDP and Theraplay, are extraneous to Bowlby and are distracting to a reader. Moreover, they appear in the "see also" section of the Attachment Theory article, which is where an interested Bowlby reader would probably want to go first before visiting those other articles.

Therefore, I'm deleting those to complete the improvement.

I have another to make, but will wait to see how this one goes.

Larry Sarner 15:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Glad you agree with the page as edited by the mediator. I agree it is fine as is.

I think the references in the "also see" section are relevant as they are mentioned in the article, so I replaced the deletions. The "also see" section of articles generally list a variety of wiki pages with some connection to the page so these belong here. This is a minor point and should not be a point of contention. DPeterson 16:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously it's not a minor point. I happen to think those links are advertising since they are only remotely connected to Bowlby.

Their mention elsewhere in the article have been a point of contention all along, so those mentions are not a sufficient basis for justifying their inclusion here. (Besides, they would be redundant in that case, as there are hyperlinks already included there.)

No, I don't agree "with the page as edited". I agreed with the mediator's changes and his reasoning, and I think my latest change are consonant with them.

The point of "see also" sections is to take a reader to the next logical place(s) where the reader might follow a line of inquiry, not to something two or more steps removed. A reader of the Bowlby article who could be enlightened by those articles might fruitfully follow the other links, but the ones I removed could very easily be a dead-end for most readers. On the other hand, if they actually weren't a dead-end, they could have reasonably discovered them by following the other links. This is identical to the argument made by the mediator accompany his similar changes.

I don't think your arguments refute the logic of my change. I'm going to revert your revert.

Larry Sarner 16:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

WIKI REFERENCES: An appeal to concensus building and mediation

Since you (Mr. Sarner) don't agree, mediation is in order and the page has been returned to it's original state before your unacceptable deletions and reverts. It would be in the spirit of what the mediator recommends to leave the page as is and for these issues to be discussed here. Your revert war is really not conducive to reaching concensus.

The links listed are not "advertising" as they are directly related to the use of Bowlby's work in clinical practice and directly related to the material in the article. All material listed in the article that has a wiki page could/should be listed in also see. The links are legitimate therapeutic approaches with a body of literature supporting them; similiar to other material listed in the article.

All the items listed in the "also see" section have hyperlinks elsewhere, so either all go or all belong. The point of "also see" is to direct readers to related pages. Many readers with a clinical bent will be quite interested in these wiki pages as readers will be in the other links in the also see section. All the links could reasonably be discovered by readers following other hyperlinks, so, again, by that logic, all should go.

The point of the also see section is to list related links and these are related. Rather than make unilateral changes, I'd suggest comments be collected for a while (I will be away for about ten days) and then see what concensus emerges. This article is not about anyone one person's personal views or ideas and should represent a concensus...even if you disagree with with that concensus. I do hope you are willing to work in that spirit and not simply engage in a revert war and senseless argument and deletions. DPeterson 17:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Boy, the problems with the above comments!

1. I don't see where the mediator ever said, "leave the page as is", and can't believe that he would think that hamstringing either party in that way.

2. I didn't start a "revert" war with my editing. I appropriately in effect said, on the discussion page, here is something that doesn't belong in the article and followed through on my point with the article. You did the first revert (undoing another editor's edits) within minutes of my change. If you believed your own comments, you should have let my edits stand and just continued the discussion on this page.

3. Your position seems to be, "I win," not consensus (please note spelling). While we argue here, your advertising links remain on the page. Please tell me, under those circumstances, what your motivation to accomodate disparate views can ever be?

4. I note that no one has put in Stanley Greenspan's page, though it is referenced in the article. Why not? I haven't put it in because it would be inconsistent with my position. "1907" is not in the "see also" section, but is referenced in the main article. I don't see that done in other articles. In fact, it seems a little silly, when the hyperlink already does the job.

5. "Editing" isn't just adding stuff, it's also deleting stuff that's inappropriate for a variety of reasons.

6. I think the links are advertising. But what I think they are doesn't matter. I proposed deleting them on the basis that they are too remotely connected to Bowlby (he never heard of DDP).

I have more, but have to go for now.

Larry Sarner 18:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

1. The proper procedure, as described by the mediator, is to suggest edits on the discussion page, collect comments and build concensus before making changes.

2. The page should remain as is until a concensus is reached. Unilateral changes do not build concensus or show any interest in compromise.

3. The material listed is not advertising, but links to legit wiki pages about legitimate areas of interest. Continuing to defame as advertising neither makes it true, nor shows an interest in concensus building, compromise, or the proper use of mediation. Since the material is not mine, I fail to see what you mean by advertising.

4. You act as if the difference is only between you and I, yet there are other comments indicating a building concensus that the page is quite fine. I'd suggest you consider others' points of view and recognize that wiki pages can contain material that you may not agree with, but that others may find appropriate and legitimate. This page is not mean to only represent your views. The page is meant to describe releveant material; even if you, personally think it not so, others do.

DPeterson 19:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Also See Links

I agree that the links are fine and should remain. I don't see any problem with the links. The pages linked may be of interest to those reading about Bowlby and should remain. In addition, the space taken up by these two See Also links is so tiny as to hardly be worth arguing over. I just don't see Mr. Larry Sarner's point...or, more accurately, I just don't agree and vote to leave the page as is...it's just fine.

Whoa, how about a third opinion?

From what I can see, the appearance of some (or all) of these links is causing controversy:

• Attachment disorder This seems okay since it's directly connected with Bowlby

• Attachment theory - This seems okay since it's directly connected with Bowlby

• Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy - Mentions Bowlby and his impact

• Reactive attachment disorder - Mentions Bowlby and his impact

• Theraplay - No mention at all

For some articles, I can understand why they may be considered not relevant to this article for linking. For example, when I visited the theraplay article, not a single mention of Bowlby was made, indicating that perhaps this is not suitable. However, I won't change anything and I suggest that this be left alone and perhaps we can seek a third opinion (well actually fourth/fifth opinion, but it shouldn't matter :P). Please leave these links intact for now, until a fresh face provides their perspective on the matter. Deal? Brisvegas 10:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me. I beleive all the links are fine and do not detract, but if there is a concensus of opinion to remove the Theraplay link I'd accept that. Theraplay is based on attachment theory and the book by Jernberg mentions Theraplay, but the wiki page does not, so I see your point. I will be away for about a week or ten days now. Thanks for your assistance. DPeterson 14:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that the references in the section are fine as is...however for the sake of peace and in the spirit of accomodation, I'd agree to just the deletion of the Theraplay reference so that we can finally end this dispute. with hope MarkWood 16:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not see what all the fuss is about. The section seems very good to me and appropriate. If removing Theraplay then makes it acceptable to most, I will support that and that is my vote. JonesRD 16:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The article reads well to me and looks fine. I do not see the need for any changes, maybe more details would be interesting 66.238.217.148 13:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I was not familiar with Wiki's "third opinion" process until I read the article on it (thanks for the ref). It doesn't seem to fit here, since there are not precisely two editors involved (unless the others above are sock-puppets of DPeterson). It also seems to be a form of "binding arbitration" which I don't think we're ready for yet. That said, I would welcome the opinion of anyone connected with the Wiki community, but not connected with either of the sides in this dispute. To that end, I'm going to concisely state my position on this part of the dispute -- again -- in a following section so that a newcomer won't have to wade through the quagmire to discern at least my side of the issue.

And just an additional point for everyone else. Even resolving this point doesn't resolve the ongoing dispute over this article. I actually did this "minor" change to follow through on the point that the mediator had made about relevance of links. It resolved just one of the issue I have with the article as presently posted. I just wanted to say this because of the tendency by some to assert that the article in general had somehow become a settled issue when DPeterson had stopped reverting my changes in the non-contentious parts of the article. Others may think that the article is "fine the way it is", but I certainly don't.

Larry Sarner 20:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the others that the references in the also see section are fine and that does seem to be how all but one feel. I'd suggest the mediatior take that as concensus and end this...too much time on such a very tiny point. I am glad that Mr. L. Sarner has stopped reverting and changing the article. That is a step in the right direction. But I do wish he'd refrain from his attack-mode, snide allegations, and other such none productive comments. It almost seems as if more than one other disagrees with him, then those others must be "sock puppets" and he must discount those comments. Regardless, I do think things are moving in a positive direction and am glad that Larry Sarner seems to approaching this in a much more civil and appropriate manner. I appreciate that. Dr. Art 21:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never been uncivil, if by that is meant that I have engaged in personal attacks. I have attacked arguments -- though never snidely -- and I have defended my own, though very often attacks have been on me and not on my arguments (such as that above).

Also, I have not engaged in a campaign to get others into this by expressing support for my opinions. That's a useless exercise. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy; consensus here is not arrived at by vote. Nevertheless, it is worth stating that I know my opinion is not a lonesome one. I know there are others either watching this debate or the article who agree with my position(s) with respect to the article.

And the mediator cannot "end this", as he well knows. He can only suggest where people might reach voluntary consensus, by whatever means he can. I requested the mediation in the hopes that an uninvolved third-party might be able to intercede in what was otherwise an endless series of reverts to the detriment of Misplaced Pages and its readers.

We are getting down to brass tacks now, with this issue and another I'm about to raise. I do not expect that you or any of the others will ever agree with my position or that we will ever reach consensus, though I may be surprised by that. Even so, I have to try, because I want Misplaced Pages to succeed and its readers deserve truth and accuracy in the articles it finds here.

Larry Sarner 00:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Consensus does not mean that you must agree. The fact that most people here disagree with you represents a decent consensus. I see that you will be unwilling to accept anything except complete agreement with your position and that you are keeping "issues" to your self as if you are engaged in some battle (your words), which as I've said, is not helpful. Readers desereve truth and accuracy in articles posted here and that is what this article presents. It represents the writings of many people with diverse backgrounds. These third-parties have spoken and we should listen. Dr. Art 19:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In reply, see my initial comments in the "Where to go from here?" section below. Larry Sarner 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The two Wiki references really should go

The stated purpose of Misplaced Pages is to "create a great encyclopedia." To fulfill that purpose is to have articles that are useful: relevant, accurate, and concise. One way to make useful online articles are to use hyperlinks.

Hyperlinks in the text of an article are an unobtrusive way of allowing readers to access more about a subject mentioned in passing. A reader following such a link knows that the target of the link is about something else than the present article and can use it as a shortcut if the subject matter appears to be interesting. They are a convenience only and helps make the entire encyclopedia more usable.

However, hyperlinks in the "See Also" should fulfill an entirely different function than hyperlinks in the text. These links are, in effect, assertions by the editor(s) that significantly more about the subject of the present article can be reliably found by following these links. It is an editor's guide for the reader to truly learn more on the present topic -- not an index, and certainly not a wishlist where the editor might hope the reader would go. An excellent example of this is the Wiki article on its own style (Guide to writing better articles), where a discussion touching on a vast number of topics and lots of text hyperlinks includes but a single entry in the "See Also" section!

To include "See Also" links which are at best derivative of the subject of the present article is a serious disservice to the readers of the article. It can waste their time at best and mislead them at worst. It undermines the very purpose of the "See Also" section.

With the Bowlby article, two Wiki articles are included in the "See Also" list that are just the kind of inappropriate references discussed above. Consulting the "theraplay" and "dyadic developmental psychotherapy" articles would gain the reader no new information about John Bowlby himself and next to nothing in additional insights about John Bowlby or his importance. A reader following those links might be led to conclude that these interventions are something of which Bowlby might have approved, or are in his tradition. (This is asserted by their proponents, but it is not provably accurate.)

The fact that one of the articles (the DDP one) mentions Bowlby is too coarse a measure for whether it is appropriate. The mention of Bowlby appears to be gratuitous and may not be accurate. Moreover, the mention adds nothing to a reader's knowledge of Bowlby that warrants sending the reader there with a "See Also" link.

There is also one other, pragmatic, standard to apply: would the absence of the links deny a curious reader access to valuable information about Bowlby? I think not. If nothing else, a reader could go to the remaining links to gain any information which might be gained by visiting the omitted ones. On balance, readers are better off without the links than with them.

Though we are talking only two lines, I consider this important.

The Two Also See References Should Really Stay as the Concensus Dictates

While Larry Sarner makes some interesting points here I continue to disagree (as do a number of others (see above)). The two refrences are directly related to how Bowlby's influence has spread and is significant in fields of research, child development, and treatment. The two references are approaches based on his work and do justice to the importance of his life and work. He was always a practical man. His son, Sir Richard Bowlby, talks about how his father was always focused on treatment and helping children. The links are relevant, and Larry Sarner's objections are not substantive. So, I continue to vote for the references to remain included. A reader following those links is provided with valuable information direclty relevant to the man and his work. The material adds substantially to the man and provide useful insights into how valuable he and his work remain today. The mention of Bowlby in the articles is central and very relevant to the work. To apply Larry's "pragmatic position," "would the absence off the links deny a curious reader access to valuable information about Bowlby?" means that all Also see links can be deleted as all those other links are also avialable in the article, so that is really not a useful criteria at all. The main criteria is that a number of contributors/editors seem to feel the material relevant and so Larry Sarner should really relent and let it go. I cannot help asking why this is such a major point of contention to Larry Sarner? Dr. Art 23:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Battle Lines are Drawn

I've taken my best shot at presenting my reasons for removing the links.

With Mr Becker-Weidman's statement above, I am presuming that he has given the reasons on the other side.

I would now like to see the mediator post this controversy to the third opinion page and see if we can get another, impartial input, hopefully from an experienced Wikipedian. Not for the usual "break-the-tie" reasons, but for a chance for everyone to consider an experienced voice in the matter.

If my reasons don't really hold water, I'd like to get off this horse I'm riding. On the other hand, if they're substantive, I'd love for someone outside this controversy to point it out to the other side so there might be some movement.

Mediator?

Larry Sarner 00:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Battle lines? That doesn't seem to be a concensus building approach. I have not stated "the reasons on the other side" at all. I am merely beginning to describe my thoughts and ideas. I do not presume to be on one side or another and do not see this as a war or battle and so am not trying to represent anyone but myself.

We've gotten several third opinions, mine included. Why isn't that enought for Mr. Larry Sarner? There have been lots of comments. Why doesn't sarner accept these? It almost appears as if sarner is saying, or acting as if anyone who disagrees with sarner must be inside some controversy or battle. We've gotten several views on this page and it seems that if these are not to his liking, he will continue to proceed with some battle or take it to another venue in some ongoing effort to "win." This really isn't about winning, but about building concensus...even if you disagree with it; that seems like the wiki way. Dr. Art 03:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The mediator has asked for calm and put a proposal on the table, so I will refrain for now from any direct response to these personal attacks, except to request -- again -- that Mr Becker-Weidman from editing my comments on a talk page. I don't correct his (and others') spelling of consensus, and do not need his help in correctly expressing myself. Larry Sarner 14:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There you go again Mr. Sarner, being demeaning and attacking. It is Dr. Becker-Weidman, not Mr. Your intentional disrespect is not condusive to reaching agreement Dr. Art 14:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I only "attacked" your inappropriate actions (editing my comments). I don't see how a request to act appropriately is demeaning, but perhaps you can enlighten me. Your problem with being addressed by an intentionally respectful "Mr" is something I will happily discuss with you elsewhere (such as my Wiki talk page), but I think it is irrelevant here. Larry Sarner 16:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There you go again Mr. Sarner. You are not addressing the main point and are deflecting. Use of an incorrect title, when you know the proper one to use is demeaning, spiteful, and attacking. Dr. Art 19:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The "main point" was always your improper editing of another person's comments. I never mentioned what the editing was, and the actual change was never the issue. If you want to discuss your social sensitivities, I've already suggested it be taken to another venue. I will say this, though: if I have your gender wrong, I'll be happy to be corrected in that regard. Larry Sarner 21:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think your comments above are not helpful for building a consensus with Dr. Becker-Weidman. I think he is right and you should respect his preference...beside being accurate that you should refer to him as Dr and not Mr. 68.66.160.228 12:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that Mr Becker-Weidman edited my comments, contrary to Wiki policy, which was the only thing I complained about at the time. He has the right to call himself anything he wants, but he doesn't have the right to put words into another people's mouth. He made matters much worse by doing that than my original (supposed) discourtesy. And you think he was right in doing that?

And who are you, BTW? This IP address has been used by both Mr Becker-Weidman and DPeterson (if different from AWeidman). Are you just one of them, trying to get another bite at the apple on this issue? It's a little tiresome dealing with all these alter egos.

13:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I must agree with the above that sarner's comments are not helpful for building consensus. If Dr. Art is Dr. Becker-Weidman, then referring to him as Mr. is disrespectful and not in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. Such behavior is provocative and nonproductive. I've yet to see sarner address this point. As I read his comments I see that he often just makes one point, his point, and avoids responding to valid criticism or suggestions. Trying to discredit others is also not productive. I think it would go along way to build consensus if he just acknowledged his mistake and moved on.

JonesRD 14:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No battle lines! But what this boils down to...

People, please calm down! As I see it, there are now two links causing controversy (correct me if I'm wrong):

• Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy

• Theraplay

I am assuming that reactive attachment disorder, attachment theory and attachment disorder are not causing any grief. To those who want to retain these 2 links, I'd like to point that at the Sigmund Freud article, the only links to other topics in the See also section are those directly connected with Freud. If these two practices are derivative works of Bowlby, think to yourself, "are they really necessary in a See Also section?" Sarner has already made compromises of his own, having finally agreed to a section on Bowlby's legacy being included in the article. Now I suggest that the other side make a compromise of their own, and move the two controversial links into the Legacy section. Your thoughts? Brisvegas 07:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, these are the only two links in question. Hyperlinks to those articles have appeared for some time in the "Legacy" section. However, if those links in "Legacy" were to also go away at a later time, I don't think they should then re-appear in the "See Also". Larry Sarner 16:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Since Sarner has as his goal to remove all references to Dyadic Developmental Psychotherpay, I cannot agree to that. I appreciate his being clear about his objective here. That objective is not one I share and, I suspect, is not one shared by other readers of this page Dr. Art 19:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, my oft-stated goal is to make an excellent Misplaced Pages by making an accurate and useful article on John Bowlby. This response by Becker-Weidman is why I first referred to "battle lines". I commend the mediator for trying to propose a compromise, but it appears futile to me. I renew my earlier suggestion that the mediator solicit an impartial third-opinion, to see if we can get some movement toward consensus. Larry Sarner 21:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There you go once again. Making an excellent Misplaced Pages article full of accurate and useful information is my only objective. Many others have chimed in to state their opinions and these are counter to Mr. Larry Sarner's goals and wishes. We have a consensus already. I'd hope that Larry Sarner would be able to accept that gracefully and not continue his "battle". Dr. Art 22:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

To the mediator: Part of the problem here appears to be a misunderstanding of "consensus" at Misplaced Pages. Would you fill in people here as to what it really means, or direct them (us) to a common source. Becker-Weidman has just expressed the same notion that others have that consensus has been reached because I'm supposedly the only one disagreeing. Somehow, I don't think that's the deal at Misplaced Pages. Larry Sarner 22:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What to do from here?

Two or three people (or maybe just one with several accounts) has come on here claiming, in effect, to own this article on John Bowlby.

With respect to the "See Also" section, I tried to improve it and predictably experienced resistance. Resistance is fine, but when I laid out my reasons for my position, I've gotten no rational reply to those reasons. Instead all I got was, "go away and stop bothering us". Even the mediator got more or less the same treatment when he had the temerity to suggest that maybe I had a point among my reasons and that compromise by the others was in order.

When the mediator suggested a formal Third Opinion process, wherein an uninvolved third-party might cast a deciding vote, the other side, instead of reading the article about the formal process, thought it was really an invitation to stuff the ballot box, and now that they've stuffed it, insist that I go along.

And, of course, there has been a barrage of personal attacks on me and my "motives" throughout.

Well, I'm a big boy and can take the bullying, but I despair for Wiki's sake of ever seeing a peaceful resolution to the disputes here. (And I haven't even gotten to the substantive matters yet!) The mediator has a lot on his plate (I see from his talk page), but if he has anything more to offer on how to proceed toward genuine consensus (not the redefinition of it that Mr Becker-Weidman and the others have expressed), then I am eager to hear it, but otherwise I guess we're back on our own.

(BTW, "battle" wasn't originally my term; it was first used by DPeterson on the mediator's talk page.)

I don't expect the other side to ever see reason or even act reasonably, but I hereby declare my intent to do my best to do so. I have additional changes to make and will post my reasons for them in advance here on the talk page, to be judged by a candid world.

Larry Sarner 22:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be good to see all your additonal changes at once. 68.66.160.228 12:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No, that would be bad. (See comments below.) Larry Sarner 13:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I must agree with the several others who have commented on this page that it would be good to see all of Larry Sarner's suggestions at once. To do otherwise only builds suspicion that Larry Sarner has a hidden agenda and is not willing to build consensus or compromise. It would be in the spirit of Misplaced Pages for him to state all his recommendations, since he already has these in mind. That would go a long way as a show of good faith and be in the spirit of collaboration. To do otherwise only fuels the impression that he is not willing to compromise or develop and consensus and is actually working on a specific agenda (Note that I say impression. I do not know his actual motives and hope that I am wrong...Larry Sarner can show this by doing what several others have suggested; just list all your ideas for everyone to reveiw and comment on.)

JonesRD 14:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Betrayal of Wiki Process

There you go again sarner! Unilateral changes while in mediation are a betrayal of the Wiki process. The mediator had asked that there be no changes to the page and you ignored the mediator's request. This is a clear violation of the Wiki process and spirit. This seems to be your mode of operation. Your bullying and wiping out reasonable and valid information is just wrong. I do hope the mediator will intervene to correct your reverts and bullying and see that you have no intention of cooperating in a collaborative process; you only seem to want to deny a voice to anyone who disagrees with your biased and fringe view. Your continued false allegations are just another ploy of a rigid bully.

Dr. Art 22:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Everyone makes mistakes

Dearie me, it seems that some users have lapsed into their old modes of behaviour; Dr. Art/AWeidman has begun criticising (Larry) Sarner again (please remember to assume good faith, rather than accusing others of bullying or of holding a "fringe view"), while Sarner has made unilateral changes to the article which were reverted anyway (please don't make any more changes unless it is OK'ed by the others).

Ultimately, the compromise must be reached between you. Please remember that for most casual users of the Misplaced Pages, the inclusion or omission thereof of certain links is not likely to be such a big deal as it is for you people. Please consider whether this really is a matter of building a better encyclopedia or whether each side is simply trying to keep their pride. At least one side must budge; otherwise, this might never be resolved.

I implore each side to consider if their stance on this topic really is worth maintaining, and perhaps ultimately change their mind. I shall leave it up to you, since my meddling in the article itself could be construed as being partisan. Good luck. Brisvegas 09:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree...more later when I return.

Dr. Art 19:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't agree not to make any changes without the approval of the others, since editing is the only leverage I have. If the other side stubbornly refuses even to rationally debate the issue(s) or insists that the only argument that matters is that they have more votes than I do, then what else can someone in my position do?

I put forth my arguments, calmly and reasonably, and not once have they been addressed by the other side. They realize that they don't have to under this arrangement. They can just say no, and the article remains unchanged with their POV intact. Becker-Weidman has made it clear that he will veto my changes from now to eternity. In effect, the mediator's suggestion lets him own the article.

I'll propose this alternative to make the playing field more level. While the issue on the links is being debated, why don't we operate this way? Let the disputed links stay for two days, then eliminate them for two days, then put them back in for two days, and so on. That way it's fair to both sides, and gives us both incentive to at least debate the issues on their merits. If this process is acceptable, I am willing to stipulate that changes to the See Also section be made only by the mediator: to implement the alternation and any ultimate agreement. Is that reasonable?

Larry Sarner 13:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with the mediator's request and feel it is reasonable. I am sorry. It is difficult not to get upsed with what appears to be recalcitrance and disrespectful behavior, but I will try to do my best.

There you go again, labeling the ""other side" as stubbornly refusing to even rationally debate the issue..." is not helpful and is needlessly provocative and just not true...I would say that what you accuse me of applies to you. One could say that it seems that you have an agenda and seem unwilling to waiver from your ACT agenda and bias of this fringe group. I have put forth a number of reasonable arguments and these have not even been considered. I cannot speak for Dr. Becker-Weidman, but can say that I have no intention of vetoing sarner's changes for ever and see nothing in Dr. Becker-Weidman's comments to suggest that either. There seem to be many people disagreeing with sarner's POV, which should mean something.

I think that sarner should specify all the changes rather than going one point at a time so that we can see his goal/agenda in full. Before I am comfortable discussing any consensus and compromise, I would like to see all he feels is necessary. Although, we do seem to have a consensus here, we can certainly continue dialogue...but it should be a dialogue of all he feels necessary. DPeterson 00:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Minor changes to Legacy

I have made some punctuation changes to the second paragraph in the Legacy section:

1. Putting quotes around the proper name assigned to an intervention by its creator.

2. Changing the description of Lieberman's intervention to "parent education", which is how Lieberman describes the narrower topic (within "parent-child psychotherapy") to which I was originally directing the reader's attention.

These are not the substantive objections I have to the Legacy section. I just wanted to clean up the section a bit before we started arguing over the big issues, and I didn't want these improvements to be caught up in the cross-fire.

Larry Sarner 17:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The changes are good, but Lieberman refers to the program as "Parent-Child Psychotherapy," her term for her work. DPeterson 23:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me a reference for this? With a conclusive reference, I would gladly acquiesce. I researched this before and have not seen her use this term (or any term) ever as a label for her work. The closest term I have ever seen is "parent education" as her area of focus, which also emphasizes where (and how) she thinks the biggest change must take place in correcting a dysfunctional family relationship. Larry Sarner 05:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

See Handbook of Infant Mental Health.

68.66.160.228 12:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

After a check, I discover the phrase used by Lieberman in this reference is "infant-parent psychotherapy" to describe her area of work. As indicated above, I would accept this as the description used in the Legacy section. Agreeable? Larry Sarner 00:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

See the section several sections back on Lieberman. She uses the term Parent-Child Psychotherapy in her writings (see, for example, Disorders of attachment in infancy. Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America, 4, 571-587 (1995), so what is currently on the page can remain. The other point is that others don't use quotes in describing various approaches, so not sure that quotes are appropriate here around the terms used by various authors, such as floor time or circle of security project. DPeterson 01:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We need to be current and accurate here. If Lieberman ever used the term as you cite, she evolved it within a few years to be more precise, as reflected in the Handbook (1999). Her work is very focused on a specific developmental stage (infancy), and it is misleading as well as inaccurate to suggest using the outdated terminology. Also, the phrase is pointedly not capitalized by her, meaning she never considered it as a proper name (such as Floor Time, or Circle of Security) and it is again inaccurate to capitalize it. The Wiki article is being written for a 2006 audience; if we mention Lieberman, it should be current and accurate. Why would you want it to be anything else? Let's change it to (infant-parent psychotherapy) straightaway and move on.

I yield on the quotation marks, since capitalization makes the distinction I was after anyway (though not as obviously). I am noting your switch in position, however. Larry Sarner 03:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine with me. If others agree then I'd suggest that those changes be made. DPeterson 13:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Why I prefer unilateral changes not to be made

Sarner, I realise the point you make that the approach I suggested effectively gives DPeterson, Dr. Art and MarkWood veto powers over your proposals. However, this is not giving them more power than they already have. Please remember that when you did try to make changes to the article which they disagreed with, they quickly reverted you anyway. Therefore, even if they could not veto your proposal, they might have reverted it anyway.

I strongly suggest that for the sake of peace, the two controversial links only appear in the text of the legacy section and not in the See Also section. It is a wiki principle that unless a topic is strongly related to an article, only passing references to it are made in the body of the article and not lumped into the "See Also" section. Quite frankly, Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy and Theraplay are not directly enough related to Bowlby to be listed in the See Also section, but they may deserve a mention in the Legacy section, which they already do. So, even for matters of style, these two links should be removed from the See Also section as they are already linked to in the article. I will not do this myself nor do I suggest that Sarner do it, but it would be great if someone who would like to keep links to these topics in the article would make a gesture of good will and remove them from the See Also section. By making concessions, you are ultimately strengthening your own positions for the more important matters of content relating to the article. Please consider this. Brisvegas 01:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd be glad to consider that, speaking for myself, but only after I see all of sarner's suggestions. So, I will wait to see the sum total of sarner's proposed changes and then will comment, listen to what others have to say, and if it seems appropriate, will then accept the mediator's helpful suggestion. DPeterson 01:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful for all to cool down and take some time for reflection. I agree with the mediator's suggestion and with DPeterson. Let's wait will Sarner has had some time to reflect and then present all the changes he feels are necessary and appropriate. At that time everyone can comment and a consensus develop. Certainly once all suggestions are on the table I would probably be quite willing to make the changes suggested by the mediator in that context and as a show of good faith as suggested by the mediator. I hope this helps.

MarkWood 18:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I want to see all the proposed changes at once.

JonesRD 19:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The mediator has stated the Wiki principle pretty well, which is what I argued for the "See Also" section from the beginning. Can we come to an agreement (consensus) that the Wiki principle should be followed and implement it? (This has been hinted at as being acceptable to DPeterson.) If the Wiki principle is the basis for the decision, then it shouldn't matter what happens in the rest of the article. If the Wiki principle is not the basis for the decision, I doubt that any agreement will ever be possible, but the other side can certainly state their reasons for overriding Wiki style and maybe they can be persuasive with them.

As for the mediator's point about the imbalance of power in this situation, I acknowledge that the other side gets more reverts in toto than I do and thus can force their POV in any unmoderated edit war. I asked for mediation in the first place as a chance to expose the edit war to the wider Wiki community and initiate a Wiki dispute resolution process. I felt that mediation was a reasonable first step in that process. At any time, either side can give up on the mediation process and either move on to the next level of dispute resolution or resume the war. At the time I made my changes, I felt that mediation was failing to produce anything other than demands for my capitulation, and I was attempting to alert everyone concerned about what the failure of mediation might mean; in that limited purpose, my actions certainly seem to have been catalytic.

I hope that there is some real movement now toward genuine consensus and that the mediator can soon put a well-earned notch on his Mediation Cabal belt. We shall see.

Larry Sarner 02:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be good to see all your changes at once. That would go a long way to showing good will and engender trust. Otherwise it does appear that you are merely working on an agenda or vendetta and are only trying to represent ACT no matter what the evidence to the contrary. So, I'd suggest stating all the changes you feel are necessary, especially since you already have those in mind and it only make you appear in a very bad light to keep those hidden, as if you have some long range agenda you are following. Dispell that notion by posting you ideas here so everyone can comment. 68.66.160.228 12:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The other side now has another red herring (and resurrected another) for not dealing with my arguments, and now with the mediation in toto. My other concern(s) are not relevant to the issue on the table (the mediator's suggestion about the two links being contrary to Wiki style principles).

C'mon, people, stick to the issue. My motivations are irrelevant. Any other issue(s) I have are irrelevant. How I "appear" is irrelevant. Do Wiki principles apply to the "See Also" section or not? If not, why not? That is all that is on the table at the moment. Well, that and the issue whether or not you are engaged in mediation in good faith.

Larry Sarner 14:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the comments of others, and mine, are sticking to the issue. Wiki principles call for the development off consensus and the building of good articles. I must agree with the several others who have commented on this page that it would be good to see all of your suggestions at once. To do otherwise only builds suspicion that your have a hidden agenda and is not willing to build consensus or compromise (Wiki priniciples include openness and compromise and consensus. Anything that gets in the way of those is not consistent with Wiki principles). It would be in the spirit of Misplaced Pages for your to state all your recommendations, since you already have these in mind. That would go a long way as a show of good faith and be in the spirit of collaboration. To do otherwise only fuels the impression that your are not willing to compromise or develop and consensus and are actually working on a specific agenda (Note that I say impression. I do not know your actual motives and hope that I am wrong...Your can show this by doing what several others have suggested; just list all your ideas for everyone to reveiw and comment on.)

JonesRD 14:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't asked for your agenda, whoever you are. This is not the venue for such discussions. Please stick to the issue at hand. The lack of good faith in the mediation process is apparent when red herrings are thrown up instead of discussing the issue. You can't build consensus on this point if you won't discuss the point. I repeat (to all on the other side), do Wiki principles apply to the "See Also" section or not? If not, why not? Larry Sarner 17:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You are missing or avoiding the point Mr. Sarner. The issue at hand is making this a good article, so all items should be viewed. Your continued avoidance of the issue makes your motives and willingness to cooperate, collaborate, and build consensus suspect.

First, you should apologize to Dr. Becker-Weidman as another contributor suggested...let's just move on with this. If you'd prefer I refer to you as Sarner, Larry Sarner, Mr. Sarner, what ever, I will as that is respectful and you should do the same with all contributors, even those you may disagree with.

Why not post all your ideas? Your refusal makes it "appear" that you really are merely an advocate for ACT and are not trying to cooperate, collaborate, or build consensus. So, I suggest you just post all your ideas and lets anyone who is interested post comments and move on the getting this page to consensus. Again, why not post your ideas?

MarkWood 18:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The immediately above comments contribute nothing new to the debate on the "See Also" section, so require no additional answers from me. (For my previous answers, consult my previous comments.)

I am not the one refusing to put my ideas on the table, or refusing to build consensus. I ask again, do Wiki style principles apply to the "See Also" section or not? If not, why not?

Larry Sarner 21:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

In order to follow Misplaced Pages style principles we should evaluate all the ideas and suggestions together. We see that you do not wish to do so and that does raise questions and maybe even confirm (?) that you do not wish to adhere to Wiki principles of collaboration, cooperation, and consensus building. As several people have said, putting out all your ideas whould facilitate the advancement of those principles. I'd sugges you do that, if not, why not? Isn't collaboration and the other Wiki principles what you want to rely on? Hopefully you will move this along so we can build consensus.

66.238.223.87 21:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Another anonymous non-contributor supporting the red herring. The word "collaboration" is not a style issue. Apparently no one in New York State has an answer to the real question on the table: do Wiki style principles apply to the "See Also" section or not? If not, why not? Larry Sarner 00:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As I feared sarner is not willing to collaborate, cooperate, or develop consensus, despite a number of contributors asking that he do something very simple to move this along. The user before sarner's comments did answer his question, "In order to follow Misplaced Pages style principles we should evaluate all the ideas and suggestions together...As several people have said, putting out all your ideas whould facilitate the advancement of those principles. I'd sugges you do that, if not, why not? Isn't collaboration and the other Wiki principles what you want to rely on? Hopefully you will move this along so we can build consensus."

DPeterson 00:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, c'mon. That is obviously no answer. It is an evasion, at best. Your suggestion is hardly a style principle. If you think it really is, quote it from the Manual of Style. I remind you that the actual style principle involved here was first mentioned by the mediator (at the top of this discussion section). You have laid out preconditions, unilaterally, for you (and your side) to discuss the issue. What a mess for the poor mediator to wake up to when the sun rises Down Under!

Does the Wiki style principle mentioned by the mediator apply to the "See Also" section or not? If not, why not?

Larry Sarner 04:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)