Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:37, 28 June 2006

• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive3
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive4
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive5
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive6
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive7
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive8
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive9
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive10
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive11 (accusations of racism, "stealing black music")
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive12 (Elvis as the second- or third-greatest, etc.)
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive13 (where User:195.93.21.65 and his/her alter ego User:195.93.21.67 can moan about Presley)

Mass deletions

If you're going to delete a wodge from this or any article:

1. Explain yourself in the discussion page
2. Be candid and informative in the edit summary
3. Clear up any mess after yourself (please see the end of the footnotes)

Thank you. -- Hoary 06:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC) (Footnote problem fixed Hoary 07:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC))

List of controversial subjects

Heh, saw this article on the list of controversial subjects, and wanted to make an offer to be a neutral party here when appropriate. I have never edited this article, nor do I care to. I don't care whether Elvis is gay or straight, Fat Elvis or Skinny Elvis, obsessed or not obsessed with James Dean. I just don't care. For that reason, I can be neutral about whether Misplaced Pages rules are being applied appropriately here. Why am I interested -- because I DO edit on controverisal 9/11 conspiracy theory articles, and know that a neutral would be useful there, but seldom seen. Call it my offer to be a good Wikipedian. Cheers. Morton devonshire 02:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Splendid! Stick around. -- Hoary 03:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Editors much work

Elvis Presley, for all his flaws as a human being, deserves better than to keep putting material refuted by himself, Jet magazine, and others into this article - it does not belong - it gives the apparence of a false notion - it is non-notable (ie. racism allegations). Further, I would like to find editors who wish to help improve this article and do right by this man, to make is biography accurate, non-POV and worthy of such an American legend. --Northmeister 00:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Critical remarks on the singer and his audiences should not be deleted. They are part of Elvis's history, especially in view of the fact that they were widely discussed. In his peer-reviewed study, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000), Michael Bertrand, for instance, says that "no subject associated with Presley causes greater controversy and conflict than that of race". See above.Onefortyone 00:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

User Onefortyone seems to be confused as to what 'peer-reviewed' actually means. It means that a particular piece of work has met minimum standards of academic credibility. It does not mean that the reviewers agree with the content of the work. Put another way, there have been peer reviewed works on UFOs but that does not mean those works are accurate or credible. So saying that there was a paper about Elvis that mentioned race (though did not mention that Elvis was a racist) and that said paper was peer reviewed is simply not relevant and is an attempt at distortion. Lochdale

What are you talking about? Did you read the positive reviews of Race, Rock and Elvis I have cited below? Of course, you didn't read them. Otherwise you would not have written such things. Instead of constantly denigrating peer-reviewed studies and other books on Elvis, you should provide direct quotes from books you have used. That would be more helpful. Onefortyone 16:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That is in your fantasy. They were refuted and should not be in this encyclopedic article. If you wish to pronosticate then do so elsewhere, maybe on myspace. --Northmeister 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Northmeister, my contributions are based on several independent books written on Elvis. On your user page, you are admitting that you are "an American by heart (and birth)" and that you have been "a lifelong fan of Elvis Presley." Could it therefore be that you endeavor to remove critical voices from the article which put Elvis in a negative light, although these voices are based on several independent sources, among them Elvis biographies by reputable authors and a critical study on Elvis's alleged racism published by a university press? Onefortyone 12:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What I am trying to do is reorganize this article to be presentable. I would like to see this page reduced in size, and to cover what an encyclopedia should cover, this is not a book to cover everything about Elvis, if there is to much information, then sub-articles are needed on that stuff. I am a fan, that is true, although I am young (was three when he passed), so I accept your balance here. The racism cruft, needs to be notable, and since the actual source provided actually refutes the claim of racism, it does not warrant a header, nor as much coverage as it gets. I can work on language and where some of it might belong. I am not your adversary here - I liked some of the edits you just made. But, we must discuss what is controversial here, and gather a consensus before it makes the page. Working together, a proper article can be completed. What do you say? --Northmeister 04:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope we can work it out. However, I am not of the opinion that the page must be reduced in size, as Elvis is one of the most popular musicians of the twentieth century and therefore needs a thorough article on the man, his life, his music, his personal relationships and his audiences. Many people are interested in details concerning his life. Unfortunately, there are too many low-quality websites run by Elvis fans available on the Internet which have a tendency towards supporting primarily a favorable view of the singer. Most of these fans endeavour to suppress critical, unfavorable voices. To my mind, Misplaced Pages should give a balanced survey of all the diverse viewpoints discussed in books and essays on the star. Onefortyone 13:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a launching ground for any viewpoints that are not credible enough for inclusion or for a vast array of information unrelated to Elvis life and times. Much of the material is repetitious; and extensive quotes from books, that are unverifiable and do not pertain to the header are not acceptable. We are interested only in what can meet Misplaced Pages standards - SURVEY is right however. Any criticism of Elvis, ought to be in a part of the article labeled as such, not strung throughout the article. Than man is dead, he can't defend himself - all we have is the facts, and we must present them accurately in encyclopedia form. Further we should stay within Misplaced Pages guidlines for article length - much of the information you keep throwing in belongs in a separate article about the books and their criticism, with a brief synopsis of this material here. --Northmeister 13:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you please stick close to the facts. All of my contributions are supported by Elvis biographies, many of which written by reputable authors, and by peer-rewiewed studies. They are not "unverifiable," as you falsely claim. Did you read the books I have cited? Where are the sources you have used? In my opinion, you are trying to push an agenda here. Onefortyone 14:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because Presley denied making those remarks doesn't mean he didn't say them. Just as his critics cannot prove he said those things, his defenders cannot prove he didn't. They can only say it seems unlikely or would have been out of character. Presley has long been accused of making racist remarks, and he was strongly mistrusted by the black community because he was a white singer who became famous by singing black music. The article must mention these controversies, otherwise it is not balanced. (195.93.21.67 17:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

Those statements above need sources, when sources that I can check are provided, then we can consider a section on this. Jet magazine - refuted these claims. The statement, that blacks didn't trust hims because he was a 'white singer' is itself racist - judging someone based on their skin color or race. The article should mention controversy when it is real, this one is not. If so, lets have the evidence for it being a real allegation with real evidence. --Northmeister 01:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you read what I have written above? I have quoted from Michael T. Bertrand's peer-reviewed study, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000), which is certainly a reliable source. See . Onefortyone 12:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read, or even read reviews of, Race, Rock, and Elvis. That it was published by a university press strongly suggests (but alas does not prove) that it is a sound work. That it's sound of course does not disable people from mischaracterizing what it says. Onefortyone and I agree on rather little, but I think he will agree with me when I say that he and I have had strenuous (and tiresome) disagreements in the past. (They'll probably continue in the future, too.) I am open to claims that the book he cites is unreliable in whole or part, and to claims that he has mischaracterized the book. But until I see those claims, I tend to give more weight to what he says the book says than to what anyone says an unspecified article in Jet says. Meanwhile, to say The statement, that blacks didn't trust hims because he was a 'white singer' is itself racist - judging someone based on their skin color or race seems absurd to me. Whether you like it or not (and I don't like it at all), a large percentage identify themselves as "black" or "white"; for "blacks" to distrust somebody because he was a "white" singer does indeed seem racist; to state that "blacks" (in context obviously meaning "a substantial majority of blacks") distrusted him for this reason may or may not be true, but it does not seem racist at all. Meanwhile, I fully agree that the article shouldn't waste bytes on any fictitious "controversy". -- Hoary 04:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Here are some reviews of Bertrand's peer-reviewed study, Race, Rock, and Elvis:

• "Michael T. Bertrand has managed to argue more cogently and with more evidential authority than any previous commentator that the music that Elvis Presley and his rockabilly cousins fashioned in the South in the 1950s represented a serious threat to various national and regional social conventions, particularly those relating to race, class, and gender." (Brian Ward, Journal of American History)
• "With his meticulous research and elegant, concise prose, Bertrand explains the class and racial origins of rock 'n' roll, situates the music within the larger context of the turbulent 1950s South, and explores the firestorm of debate that swirled around the music and its chief promoter, the hip-swiveling Elvis." (Patrick Huber, History: Reviews of New Books)
• "Convincingly argues that the black-and-white character of the sound, as well as Elvis's own persona, helped to relax the rigid color line and thereby fed the fires of the civil rights movement." (Karal Ann Marling, American Historical Review)
• "A major contribution to our knowledge of the cultural importance of early rock and roll." (Craig Morrison, Journal of American Folklore)

Bertrand teaches history at Tennessee State University. His book was the winner of the annual Book and Essay Award given by the Shelby County Historical Commission (Memphis, TN), 2001. Onefortyone 12:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt Presley was racist. Stealing black music and showing support for Nixon was the height of racism. No wonder he was so close to John Wayne. The fact is most black people today hate him, the racist quotes were widely reported and may well be true, and his entire career was created from stealing black culture. The racist section must be restored now and the article should be protected so no more Elvis obsessed freaks can remove well known facts.(195.93.21.67 13:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC))

Mr/Mrs AOL IP, we have heard all this from you before. Until you have evidence, do please shut up about it. Many thanks. -- Hoary 01:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Hoary, you said it well. --Northmeister 04:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Marlon Brando, Michael Jackson, Chuck D, Eminem and many others are on record as hating Presley because he only became famous as a white singer who stole black music. Most of the black community in America today hate his overblown legacy. Apparently Jackson wanted to buy Graceland so he could destroy it. ... This nugget contributed by Mr/Ms AOL IP

You're repeating yourself, AOL. And you're still providing no evidence that Presley "stole black music" (whatever that might mean), or that "most of the black community in America today" have any opinion about Presley. As for your statement about Jackson's purposes for Graceland, even if they were true they'd probably say less about his opinion of Presley than about his own megalomania. -- Hoary 03:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Another peer-reviewed source dealing with the allegations of racism

There is another peer-reviewed study dealing with the allegations of racism: Richard Iton, Solidarity Blues: Race, Culture, and the American Left (University of North Carolina Press, 2000). The author says on p. 218-219, "A certain ambivalence existed in the responses of blacks to Presley and rock and roll which reflected the different economic, gender, generational, and political concerns brought to the table by different constituencies." According to Iton, there were some African American youths who "responded enthusiastically to the new culture" and some others who "also read rock and roll's emergence as supportive of the integrationist movement, therefore viewing the form's dependence on black music as something to be publicized and celebrated. ... On the other hand, there was resentment, particularly on the part of those in the black music industry who felt their work was being exploited..." In view of the fact that there are at least two independent peer-reviewed studies dealing with the controversial topic, a somewhat revised version of the "allegatios of racism" section should be reinstated. Onefortyone 23:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Neither paper (again, please see my point on what 'peer-review' actually means) suggest that Presley is a racist. They discuss the effects of rock & roll and the cultural forces at play. They do not, however, say that Presley was a racist. Please stop distorting these articles. Lochdale

Sorry, two books significantly entitled Solidarity Blues: Race, Culture, and the American Left and Race, Rock and Elvis and published by two different university presses are clearly discussing the allegations of racism. The authors are not explicitly saying that Elvis was a racist. They are dealing with African American resentment against Elvis and his music. These are historical facts that must be mentioned in the article. Would you please stick close to the facts. Onefortyone 15:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What relevance do these allegations of racism, even if true, have to the article? It's supposed to be a brief summary of the man's life and notability, not an in-depth biography. Michael Dorosh 18:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Northmeister

A few moments ago I was thinking that we may be able to work out the dispute. You call your contributions "improvements". But now I see that you are totally deleting well-sourced paragraphs I have written which are not in line with your all too positive personal view of Elvis. See, for instance, my contribution concerning Elvis's movies: or the sections on Elvis's relationships, the FBI files and the allegations of racism: . These paragraphs, which are supported by many independent sources, have all been deleted by you. This is not the way it works here. Therefore, I have decided to revert all of your contributions. Onefortyone 13:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

We need a criteria or some form of going over each paragraph in the article. I deleted material from the movies section because it did not fit the timeline and was a repeat of material used earlier. This article should be straight-forward about his life, that the vast majority of biographies agree on. What you are constantly quoting are fringe views from fringe authors, that although they have a place as a brief mention in criticism; do not warrant as much coverage as you give them. We come from two sides it seems - however, if your intent is the same as mine, to ensure a fair, accurate, balanced article, that meets wikipedia standards - then lets work out a gameplan from the top down to get the job done. The first thing I was doing actually was re-organizing this article timeline wise. - I propose we work on the opening paragraph first and move on down from there - you and I can offer improvement to that section - work out any disagreements and produce together a fine article. What do you say to that structure? --Northmeister 16:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Northmeister, you are wrong. What I am quoting are not "fringe views from fringe authors", as the books and essays I have used are written by reputable Elvis biographers, among them Peter Guralnick, Elaine Dundy, Alanna Nash, Albert Goldman, Greil Marcus and many others. I have also used peer-reviewed studies as the one written by historian Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock and Elvis. As you are repeatedly removing paragraphs which are well sourced, I do not think that it is really your intent to "ensure a fair, accurate, balanced article." However, I will give your proposition a look, and a last try. My first question is: What sources are you using for your improvements? I hope you can provide direct quotes from books and essays on Elvis in order to support all of your contributions. Otherwise your improvements are insignificant. Onefortyone 16:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Good thing Onefortyone, people should remember this is an article about Presley, not a fan page, and therefore all the controversies must be mentioned. Right from the first time I heard "Hound Dog" my father played Big Mama Thornton's version so I could see how Presley just ripped it off black culture and desexualized it. Whatever changes our new guest makes, please revert them at once. (195.93.21.67 14:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC))

Just a question, 195.93.21.67. Are you an active member of the African American society? Perhaps you may also have a watchful eye over the "improvements" made by user Northmeister. I think it is not acceptable that this user has totally removed several paragraphs from the article, among them the racism section, which seems to be your favorite paragraph. Onefortyone 14:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I am, what difference does it make? Presley's version prevented Thornton from becoming a major star, and she lived in poverty while he got fat on the profits of his stolen music. (195.93.21.67 15:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC))

The article on Thornton says Unfortunately for Thornton, Elvis Presley's smoother and bowdlerized version was a major pop hit in 1956 and successfully eclipsed her biggest claim to fame. I'd like to see an explanation of for whom it eclipsed her song and how this was unfortunate. I have Thornton's "Hound Dog" on CD. I have great trouble imagining that it could ever have been a major hit among pale people: it's way too strong and way too good. Was any song as, uh, "nasty" as this a hit among large numbers of pale people in the wholesome 50s? Meanwhile, AOL, if your constant repetition of "steal", "stole" and "stolen" is intended to persuade by some kind of brainwashing, it's failing miserably. Still, thanks for the little joke about Presley getting fat -- in the context of Big Mama Thornton. Hoary 03:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Brainwashing? Not hardly. It is a fact that Presley stole black music to become famous, and even many of his fans are able to acknowledge that truth. That is why he is so hated to this day, as shown by the words of Eminem, Marlon Brando, Chuck D etc. This contribution made at 20:28, 23 June 2006 by our rather repetitive AOLusing chum 195.93.21.67

Dear AOLuser, your mindless repetition of unexplained claims, together with your mindless repetition of the names of three celebs (none of whom is or was an IP lawyer or similar) is getting extremely boring. Do consider directing your talents elsewhere. Thank you. -- Hoary 03:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

These are no "unexplained" claimst at all. Presley stole black music, he made stupid movies, he made a brief comeback and then gave a series of obese performances in Las Vegas wearing gay clothes before dying on the can. All of this is fact, and YOU can't argue with it.

Some troll removed the Accusations of racism section. I suggest it is restored and the article protected. (195.93.21.67 02:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC))

Why don't you get an account? Your comments have been nothing but personal attacks and hysteria. --Northmeister 05:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Onefortyone has been notorious for pushing his fringe agenda into multiple articles across wikipedia, so it is no surprise to see him pushing his pet project here as well.Michael Dorosh 05:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

My Proposal (accepted above by Onefortyone)

Thank you for accepting my proposal to work on this article, section to section. The first section to work on and come to agreement, is the opening. I will post the original as it exists per my last post. Let's work from my last reversion, and go from there. I am open to inclusion of material relevant and sourced then onward, in the proper context and section. My main objections on viewing this page originally was the way it was formatted and all scattered about. So, my first efforts have been towards format, some material deleted, not to take it out in the long run, but to help in this organization I was doing. I am glad Onefortyone has decided to hop on board and help out. Together a fair, accurate, and well-sourced article can emerge that is neither an attack piece (which it was) or a fan-appreciation piece. Let us begin with the opening below. --Northmeister 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Northmeister, you have again deleted nearly two-thirds of the Elvis Presley article, including passages and paragraphs on Elvis's youth, his movies, his relationships, the FBI files and the allegations of racism. See . Before we can start the process of working on the article the content of all these well-sourced sections which have been removed by you should first be restored. Furthermore, you have not yet answered my question above: What sources are you using for your improvements? Onefortyone 12:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, in an opening for collaboration, we will work from the version you reverted to, which needs a great deal of work. First, I am using Elvis by the Presley's, Elvis.com official website on the man (for balance and fairness), and then a book I read "Down at the End of Lonely Street: The Life and Death of Elvis Presley" which I found was one of the best bio's on his life and relatively balanced. Like I've stated often, everything that book covers needs not be covered here, nor from your sources. What is important is an overall survey of this man, his music, and his affect on rock n roll and America in general. We don't need every fact about his sex life, or every facet of speculation thereof (which most of it is hearsay evidence by fringe authors). What we need is clear evidence, conclusive about the man's: BIRTH, RISE, MUSIC and MOVIES, LAST YEARS, and LEGACY. That is the format I was working out when you reverted. That is the format I will accept (VOICE CHARACTERISTICS included), no further headers to start with. I will make such changes in 24hrs, keeping your material in the appropriate place for now. We will start with the OPENING, offered below, which you as yet have failed to comment on or offer improvement to, I am waiting your response..lack of response indicates an approval for restoring my efforts thus far as a breaking of our agreement. You have 24hrs to respond, otherwise our agreement is broken and your seriousness towards an accurate article is highly suspect. --Northmeister 23:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC) -SEE BELOW, AFTER READING THIS USERS TALK PAGE, HISTORY OF ABUSE, CONSTANT INSERTION OF FALSE MATERIAL from BOOKS, and non-relevant material REFUTED by the actual source (ie. Racism section) in a personal agenda to smear not only Elvis but other celebrities and to accuse them of a number of things, including homosexuality on numerous occasions. I think Arbcom should seriously look into this users behavior past and PRESENT. --Northmeister 00:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been in a serious attempt to work with you, not knowing your history of abuse and constant stalking of other users, making information up, use of poor sources, getting into constant personal attacks on those who disagree with you and more. My attempts to placate you have failed, as you do not wish to work in collaboration, but as evidenced above wish to use wikipedia as constant source of false, badly sourced, agenda driven - material on Elvis and other celebrities. You were both blocked and brought to the attention of mediation and arbcom in the past. I highly recommend you update your sources, learn to use wikipedia properly, and learn what collaboration means. You were also banned from the Elvis page this year, and I can see why. You are a disruptive user who is pushing an agenda with FALSE, MADE UP, and MISLEADING quotations from FRINGE books. The sources I listed above, including many others available, some you CLAIM to use, will be used to fix this article. I am asking all credible editors to censor this individual for the disharmony and use of false material he is engaged in now and in the past. Read the commentary here and on his talk page. --Northmeister 00:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

These last statements, which seem to be personal attacks, clearly indicate that it was not your intent to work with me on the Elvis article. Your deleting tactics were all too transparent. Onefortyone 00:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I gave you a fair chance, and all you can do is make remarks like above rather than respond to the below opening and work from my truncated organized version, which in the end may have included much of what you thought belonged if sourced. You inherently charged that I was not well sourced and reverted to your version I have repeatedly stated was lacking in organization was not up to wikipedia standards....so I checked your user history and I see what you've been up to here and elsewhere. I don't play with facts, sir, I simply report them. --Northmeister 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed you are not well sourced. You are using information from a fan site, a book written by Priscilla Presley, who has been accused by another biographer of having created a "web of lies" in her publications, and a flimsy pro-Elvis book by Peter Harry Brown and Pat H. Broeske, which includes little new and undoubtedly is too kind to Dr. Nick and Priscilla. It seems as if you are not familiar with the most important Elvis biographies written by Peter Guralnick, Greil Marcus, Elaine Dundy, Alanna Nash, Albert Goldman, and others. Onefortyone 00:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You continue to post disruptive comments as you have in the past - even though I have continued to state that if you use information from the sources you say you use, I will accept it in context and if it is proper to include for an encyclopedia, especially in summary of literary criticism. What you give is long-winded quotes (highly circumspect I might add) in personal essays, that are out of order, and not well written - then you ask that sections like homosexuality in the past and racism be included when sources refute those things. You are not attempting to do a fair and balanced article to wikipedia standards, your attempting to smear celebrities across wikipedia with false information or use of information in misleading way. This has been your continued editing pattern, even before I arrived at this article. My attempts to clean-up this article where fromt he beginning challenged by you (even with my overtures to you!) in the harshest terms - thats not giving me the benefit of the doubt or following the wikipedia standard of Assuming Good Faith - which I gave to you and you broke our arrangement - I still gave it, and you continued your personal attacks and assumptions on your talk page. Enough is enough - someone should ban you from editing celebrity pages as your only here to be disruptive and add misleading and false material - not to work in harmony towards a well sourced and accurate article up to wikipedia standards. --Northmeister 00:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Truth be told, Northmeister, you are the person who has repeatedly deleted nearly two-thirds of the article, including well-sourced paragraphs. It seems as if I am the only contributor who frequently provides direct quotes from Elvis biographies written by reputable authors. Do you really think that the text you are presenting in the "opening" section is a clean-up of the article? In my opinion, this is only what an enthusiastic Elvis fan wants to read. Onefortyone 01:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Once, again, I gave an opening below for your version to the OPENING. Once again you provide the above comments. Can anyone see anything wrong with this? Look at the Louis Armstrong page, it is a wiki-standard page, and was a featured article. That is the model I have for this page and that is how this page should be. You've made it a personal essay for every crackpot theory about Elvis - you do this on other celebrity pages as well. Please stop the insanity and work to make this a credible article with relevant material. I did not write the opening as it exists now, another accusation you make which is false - it was already there. It needs improvement, thus my overture to you originally. It should be more like the Beatles opening or Louis Armstrong opening. Give us your version, AGF towards others, and stop the negative attacks on other editors who challenge your editing. --Northmeister 01:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

All I can see is that you continue to post disruptive comments. You are repeatedly deleting my well-sourced contributions which include relevant material supported by reputable Elvis biographers, and you are calling these contributions "insanity". Onefortyone 01:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that your comments are not well-sourced. You've used comments from an unpublished manuscript (that clearly no publisher wants to touch) and a book by a cousin who never lived with Presley and barely knew him. You fail to mention that the 600 plus page FBI file makes no mention of any of your allegations. That in the more than 2,000 books on Presley all you have is an unpublished manuscript and not much else. You quote Griel Marcus' book (a compelation of articles to be accurate) to support wild notions when Marcus devotes an entire chapter to Evlis' relationship with his mother and never suggests anything unhealthy. You do not mention Marcus' utter dismissal of Goldman's work or the fact that he lauds Guralnik as the only definitive biographer of Presley (note, Guralnik makes no mention of racism or incest in either one of his books). You selectively use sources to push your own agenda and it just does not belong here. Lochdale

You are constantly repeating yourself, Lochdale. Truth be told, you are falsely claiming that the FBI file makes no mention of any of my allegations. Would you please provide evidence for this false statement. Did you read what Thomas Fensch has written in his book, The FBI Files on Elvis Presley (New Century Books, 2001)? I don't think so. Otherwise you would not have written such things. For your information: we are currently talking about the first paragraphs of the article and the movies section. Onefortyone 16:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm tempted to protect the page. Please don't strip out the {{citation needed}} tags when revert-warring; some of this stuff really does need citing. Jkelly 00:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Northmeister 01:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The Opening

THE ORIGINAL:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis, and also known as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or just "The King" was an American singer, music producer and actor. Elvis was a giant in the modern entertainment industry and of American culture. His image is iconic.

Graceland, the estate in Memphis, Tennessee where he lived for 20 years, and died, was designated a National Historic Landmark on March 27, 2006..

Long after his death at age 42, Presley remains a popular and enigmatic star. Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. According to the RIAA, Presley remains the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history in 2006, more than a quarter of a century after his death. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. Presley's continuing worldwide popularity has resulted in his global sales reaching an estimated one billion records to date.

The opening is above, feel free to make any edits to it, until we get it right, after my sentence here. I'll let you start Onefortyone. Once we agree with the content we will move on to the next section, and one by one, tackle each issue. --Northmeister 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This opening section sounds as if it is constantly singing the praise of Elvis:

• giant in the modern entertainment industry
• His image is iconic
• enigmatic star
• biggest selling solo artist ... more than a quarter of a century after his death
• continuing worldwide popularity
• global sales reaching an estimated one billion records

Is this really encyclopedic? Onefortyone 00:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well that is better, but you criticize without your version, give us your version below. Although our heated exchange above, if you are willing to work on this hereon-out I am still willing to work with you as one last chance of AGF on your part. Give us your version, and we will work with it. Make no further edits to the article...until we come to agreement. --Northmeister 00:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my version of the opening:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis, and also known as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or just "The King" was an American singer, music producer and actor.

Elvis was one of the most successful singers of the twentieth century entertainment industry and remained a popular star long after his death at age 42. Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. He is certainly one of the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. It is said that Presley's global sales are reaching an estimated one billion records to date.

Graceland, the estate in Memphis, Tennessee where he lived for 20 years, and died, has become a Mecca for fans.

I hope this is satisfactory to all. Onefortyone 01:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well done, My version is below, which is very similar to yours:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 - August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis (also known by the nickname "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or The King ) was an American singer, music producer, and actor. Elvis was a giant in the modern entertainment industry, an icon of modern American culture, and represented the American Dream of rising from rags to riches through talent and hardwork. Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Elvis set records for concert attendance, television ratings, and record sales. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, with 17 of these reaching number one. Elvis' material continues to sell worldwide resulting in global sales reaching an estimated one billion records to date.

Graceland, Elvis' estate in Memphis, Tennessee where he lived for twenty years, was designated a National Historic Landmark on March 27, 2006..

I actually like your version better...I think we should include the part about rising from rags to riches, which is a big part of his biography - he was born in poverty and rose with his talent to stardom - thus the American Dream. With that sentence we can add your version to the article. Thus my copy-edit of your version below, if you concur, lets move to make it THE version for the article.

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis, and also known as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or just "The King" was an American singer, music producer and actor.

Elvis was one of the most successful singers of the twentieth century entertainment industry and remained a popular star long after his death at age 42. Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. He is certainly one of the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. It is said that Presley's global sales are reaching an estimated one billion records to date.

Elvis has become an icon of modern American culture representing the American Dream of "rising from rags to riches" through talent and hardwork. As a result, Graceland, the estate in Memphis, Tennessee where he lived for 20 years, and died, was designated a National Historic Landmark on March 27, 2006.. It has been a Mecca for fans since his death. --Northmeister 01:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some comments on this. First, "icon" does not seem meaningful to me. Secondly, the claim that Presley sold a billion records is from a company making money off Presley-related merchandise: hardly a disinterested source. Thus "it is said that" here seems worse than merely vague. Thirdly, the photos I've seen of Graceland and what I've read of it make the "Mecca" comparison seem hyperbolic -- and for what it's worth the sole truly dedicated Presley fan among my acquaintances (who may of course be atypical) does not regard Graceland with anything like religious fervor. Lastly, we don't read in this preamble anything about the kind of music or movies that he made; isn't this important? -- Hoary 02:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it is important (Mecca might be replaced with another word or taken out, I see your point, I don't think that was his intention of meaning, the billion quote can be checked, and isn't absolutely necessary) to mention something of his music style or whatnot. The opening should be a brief summary of the articles content, it should not be overly long. Please offer us your version below my statement based on the latest version above, so we can work out a good opening. --Northmeister 02:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Hoary is right here. Passages such as "Elvis has become an icon of modern American culture representing the American Dream of 'rising from rags to riches' through talent and hardwork" and that Graceland "was designated a National Historic Landmark" should be removed. This is the same old fan stuff we already had in the article. Therefore, here is a shorter version:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis, and also known as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or just "The King" was an American singer, music producer and actor.

Elvis was one of the most successful singers of the twentieth century entertainment industry and remained a popular star long after his death at age 42. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology.

Do we need more text in the opening section? I don't think so. Onefortyone 03:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Now your shortening our agreed to version, rather than work out the one problem sentence and to include what Hoary wishes, and is right about, some comments on his music? Also - It is a fact Graceland was designated as a National Historic Landmark, and that should be included. The icon statement is also correct per President Jimmy Carter's statement upon his death and people recognize this - Graceland is visited by more people outside of the White House than any other place - these are all facts - not fan stuff - actual facts that an encylopedic article should contain. He rose from poverty to wealth, which is a part of the America Dream and many biographies comment on this. Maybe the sentence needs re-wording but to discount it because you feel it is "old fan stuff" is wrong. Maybe it doesn't belong, but let's argue the merits of its inclusion in the opening, not continue attacks on material as "fan stuff". What you are doing is denying President Carter said what he said about Elvis' place in Americana, and to deny that he represented the rags to riches story. The later is a major theme of his life - as so many other successful people in America - like Sam Walton for instance. Give us good reasons to oppose its inclusion. I've accepted your version as well done - AGF on my one sentence or structure it anew if you think it is worded wrong or offer a good reason for not including the material or do you think it is false; if so why? Or do you think it doesn't merit inclusion in the opening - if so why? I am open to your suggestions, that is all collaboration is about - to work together, as I've stated I am not opposing your efforts so much as trying to work with you and others for a better article that meets wikipedia standards in length and content. --Northmeister 03:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

We don't need a reference to Graceland in the opening section. References to people visiting Graceland may be included in the "Lasting legacy" section, together with a discussion of the parallel industry, mostly kitsch, that continues to grow around the singer's memory. Onefortyone 03:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure - the opening is a summary of the article (brief summary) - which is about his life, music, and impact. It should have three paragraphs. The first paragraph: "a summary of his birth, titles, role". Second paragraph on his impact and music. The last paragraph: "about his legacy and graceland declared by US government a national historic site." Don't you agree that is the best format for an opening summary of the article? I think the last sentence to my re-edit to your original version should be taken out and some more about his music included in paragraph two, like Hoary notes, and the word icon taken out and possible first part of that sentence. --Northmeister 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, the opening shouldn't have three paragraphs. We don't need a passage about Elvis's legacy here, as it is already said that he was a very popular singer who had many number-one hits and that he remained a popular star long after his death. Instead of referring to Graceland we need some information about the kind of music Elvis made in the opening. Hoary seems to be of similar opinion. Onefortyone 03:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I am, yes. On the other hand (and to turn devil's advocate for a moment) I suppose it could be argued that Presley is now primarily a dead celeb, and what celebs actually did is less important than how they are marketed. According to this argument, Presley resembles Carl Perkins less than he resembles Hello Kitty. Still, if this were indeed so (and I wonder), it would say more about present-day society/marketing than about Presley. Hoary 05:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a sketch:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis and also marketed as "The King" was an American singer, actor, and music producer.

Presley started as a singer of rockabilly and ballads, was for some time the most commercially successful singer of rock and roll, and then moved toward country music. He was also the lead in a large number of lightweight movies, most now largely forgotten. As a singer, his popularity survived his death at 42.

Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. He is certainly one of the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history.

The young, lean Elvis has become an icon of modern American culture, sometimes held to represent the American Dream of rising from rags to riches through talent and hard work, more often representing teen sexuality with a hint of delinquency. The older, heavier Elvis

blah blah blah. I'm not sure how to put that last part fairly.

Yes, I'm not necessarily against the more or less metaphorical use of the word "icon". I just think the word is meaningless (or PR gush) unless readers are told what the icon is of. We read that he was an icon of rags-to-riches success and I wouldn't deny this, but I think this was minor in comparison with the (probably commercially devised and honed) image of rebel, menace, etc. As for the older Presley, of course to non-fans such as myself he was grotesque at times, but I have an uneducated hunch that to fans he was more avuncular -- at least if uncles can wear rhinestone-encrusted capes.

Note that I haven't deleted the stuff about the number of his top 40 (etc.) singles; I've simply chucked it into the footnote.

Was he ever actually called "the King of Rock 'n' Roll? Guessing that he wasn't, I deleted that bit. -- Hoary 06:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In From Abba to Zoom: A Pop Culture Encyclopedia of the Late 20th Century (2005), David Mansour states that "Elvis Presley was the dark-haired, lip-sneering, handsome 'King of Rock 'n' Roll' whose blues-inspired music and hip-swiveling stage performances made our mothers overheat from excitement." On p.280 of his book, Sacred Places North America: 108 Destinations (2003), Brad Olsen says about Elvis, "Because of his early contributions to rock music he has been declared 'The King of Rock and Roll.' " Michael T. Bertrand's study, Race, Rock and Elvis includes a chapter on "The King of Rock as Hillbilly Cat". On p.24, the author writes that "by 1958 the media had crowned him the undisputed 'King of Rock 'n' Roll' ". On p.222, it is mentioned that the early rhythm and blues star Wynonie Harris "had apparently grown to appreciate his younger competitor for 'King of Rock 'n' Roll' ". In his book, Rockabilly: A Forty-Year Journey (1998), Billy Poore says on p.765: "When Elvis hit that Vegas stage, he once again proved he was still the King of rock 'n' roll as well as the first King of pop music..." However, on p.146, the same author also writes: "By 1964, Bobby Fuller had become the "Rock n Roll King of the Southwest." On p.156 of Patrick Humphries's book, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics (2003) we read, "It must have been midnight when a BBC newsreader announced that Elvis Presley – 'the king of rock'n'roll' as he helpfully reminded us— had died..." In Paul Tomassi's study, Logic (Routledge, 1999), there is an interesting analysis for what is called "Type 2 identity statements". See p.251-253. According to the author, "the expression, 'The King of rock 'n' roll' is not a name but a definite description." The author explains that the eminent classical logician Bertrand Russell argues, "definite descriptions cannot have meaning in virtue of picking out objects just because there need not actually be anything in the world which corresponds to the description. Therefore, it is always possible to deny the existence of anything so described quite meaningfully, e.g., 'The King of rock 'n' roll does not exist'... So, what is Russell's analysis of a sentence such as 'Elvis Presley is the King of rock 'n' roll'? According to Russell, the use of any sentence containing a definite description entails that the described thing exists, i.e. that there exists one and only one such thing. Hence, in the present case, it is entailed that there is exactly one thing in the world which is the King of rock 'n' roll."

On the other hand, there are also many critical voices: On p.26 of Ty Roseynose - A Documentary (2005), Ty Rosenow writes, "I was making a statement throughout the album that Elvis Presley wasn't as good as most people say that he is. To me, he was never the real king of rock and roll." And Reading Attainment System/Book 3 (1987) says about Elvis: "For almost four years he was the King of Rock and Roll. Then he was drafted. Elvis was King. But there were other great rockers too. Buddy Holly, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, and Jerry Lee Lewis were top stars. Their music is still played today. ... From England came new kings of Rock and Roll, the Beatles." (p.13-14) On p.8 of his book, The Truth about Rock Music (2000), Hugh F. Pyle writes that "Elvis Presley was called the King of Rock'n Roll. He managed to live to be forty-two, unusually long for rock musicians. But he was bloated, sick, overweight; and toxicologists found twelve drugs in his ravaged body."

Query: the first sentence claims that Elvis was a "music producer". I don't think that this was the case. He was a singer, he didn't write songs and he wasn't a professional producer. And should we call him an actor? Onefortyone 22:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The above statement is ridiculous, it shows one thing - your not here to help out - your here to promote an agenda. To even consider not calling Elvis Presley an actor? What nonsense, whether you like his acting, I thought he had bad roles, is irrelevant and POV, he was in fact for a period in his life an actor. There is no sense trying to work things out with you if you are only here to disrupt the editing process. You ought to be banned from any celebrity articles for the nonsense you cause editors, over and over again. --Northmeister 23:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you please stick close to the facts without personal attacks. Why not saying, "He also acted for a period of time in B-movies"? Onefortyone 23:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I call them as I see them. I am not working with you any longer. You are here to promote a POV agenda and have been abusive of wikipedia in the past. Enough said and no more needed beyond that. Your edits will not be accepted here. --Northmeister 23:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. You are not the only editor, Northmeister. As you can see, User:Hoary partly seems to be of similar opinion. Parts of his version of the opening sound O.K. to me. In The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting (2004), Skip Press says, "When rock 'n' roll exploded mid-decade, ... it was inevitable that music stars such as Elvis Presley would appear in films..." (p.56) The author does not say that Elvis was a serious actor. You can say that Frank Sinatra was a singer and an actor, but Elvis was a rock 'n' roll singer who for a period of time also appeared in some movies. Elvis was an enthusiastic James Dean fan and returned from the military eager to make a career as a movie star, but he had limited talents as an actor. Pop film staples of the late fifties and early sixties, such as the Presley musicals and the AlP beach movies were mainly produced for a teenage audience and called a "pantheon of bad taste" (Andrew Caine, Interpreting Rock Movies: The Pop Film and Its Critics in Britain, p. 21). In the sixties, at Colonel Parker's command, the singer withdrew from concerts and television appearances in order to make such movies. "He blamed his fading popularity on his humdrum movies," Priscilla Presley recalled in her 1985 autobiography, Elvis and Me. "He loathed their stock plots and short shooting schedules. He could have demanded better, more substantial scripts but he didn't." Instead, the singer "continued to make the movies and record the dismal soundtracks, putting forth less effort with each new release. Artistically speaking, no one blamed him. The scripts were all the same, the songs progressively worse." (Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendrickx, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream, 1999, p.67.) Indeed, the movies-songs were "written on order by men who never really understood Elvis or rock and roll, such as 'Rock-a-Hula Baby', 'Beach Boy Blues,' and 'Ito Eats.' " (Jerry Hopkins, Elvis in Hawaii, 2002, p.32.) It must be admitted, however, that, although Elvis was definitely not the most talented actor around and most film critics chastised these B-movies for their lack of depth, they managed to be profitable all the way. Many of the fans loved them. You seem to be one of these fans, but a Misplaced Pages article is not your personal fan site. Onefortyone 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If you like Presley's movies then you're stupid. Btw, "Wild in the Country" flopped. 195.93.21.67

What is your opinion, AOL user? Should Elvis be called an "actor" and a "music producer" in the opening? What we need is some kind of consensus here. Onefortyone 00:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

As there is no consensus concerning the very short version of the opening section above, what about this version (mainly borrowed from User:Hoary):

The Opening

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis and also marketed as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or "The King", was an American singer. He also acted for a period of time in lightweight movies.

Presley started as a singer of rockabilly, borrowing many songs from rhythm and blues numbers by black bluesmen. He was for some time the most commercially successful singer of rock and roll, but he also sang ballads, and then moved toward country music. Personally, gospel was the music he cherished above all.

Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. He is certainly one of the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history.

The young, lean Elvis has become an icon of modern American pop culture, sometimes held to represent the American Dream of rising from rags to riches through talent and hard work, more often representing teen sexuality with a hint of delinquency. During the 1970s, when his taste had drifted away from rock, Elvis reemerged as a somewhat androgynous nightclub performer in Las Vegas, Nevada, wearing bizarre, elaborate costumes. As he got heavier, his shows were less successful. He died, presumably from a heart attack combined with drug abuse, at Graceland in Memphis, Tennessee. As a singer, his popularity survived his death at 42.

I hope this balanced version of the opening is now satisfactory to all. Onefortyone 01:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't. By 1977 Presley's career was finished, he was dying and only had $5 million in his bank account. His death at 42 saved his career and ensured he would not be forgotten like Bing Crosby, who died two months later at 74. Presley should be referred to as a "movie star" because he certainly starred in 31 dreadful stupid movies, but couldn't act his way out of a paper bag. ...contributed by AOLuser 195.93.21.67, who apparently can't find the "~" key on his or her keyboard

I think the opening is far too narrow. For example, Presley had significant success with country tunes that the "rockified". Moroever, Peter Guralnik amongst others notes the significant influnence white country musicians and pentacostalist preachers had on Presley. It's both too simple and too narrow to say Presley was merely a white man playing black music. Here's an interesting cite to a summary of Presley at Allmusic.com It really gives a deeper and more detailed discussion of Presley's career and influences. Lochdale

Would you please provide direct quotes from Guralnick's book so that we can include a new passage concerning the influence of white country musicians etc. in the opening of the article. Thanks. Onefortyone 16:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Lochdale, I welcome your input. There is a sandbox for this page, and any improvements you can make would be helpful. Thanks for the information on the FBI. Is there a source online we can check this? Maybe the Black Vault? --Northmeister 00:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Northmeister, what Lochdale says isn't true. I have cited my source. Would you please read what is written in Thomas Fensch's book, The FBI Files on Elvis Presley (2001) before deleting a whole paragraph. Onefortyone 16:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Death and burial section

This section should say "Presley was 42 years old", NOT Presley was "only 42". 42 is middle-aged, not young, and he died a lot older than James Dean, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Brian Jones, River Phoenix, Kurt Cobain, Jonathan Brandis etc etc etc. In any case the autopsy showed Presley had the body of a 70 year old man. (195.93.21.67 01:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

I've no argument with the deletion of "only", Mr/Ms AOL, but your knowledge of the results of the autopsy surprises me. I thought it was unpublished. -- Hoary 01:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There are two laboratory reports. According to Peter Guralnick, "the primary cause of death was polypharmacy, and the BioScience Laboratories report, initially filed under the patient name of "Ethel Moore," indicating the detection of fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity." See Peter Guralnick, Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), pp.651-2, Onefortyone 02:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A definite suicide, because his career was finished, he was losing his voice, he was going blind due to glaucoma and he had bone cancer. ... contributed at 07:04, 20 June 2006 by 195.93.21.67, who hasn't yet mastered the art of signing his/her comments

"only" is POV and should be removed based on Misplaced Pages: NPOV in any event.Michael Dorosh 01:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Protected

Per request at WP:RfPP, this article has been protected until disputes have been resolved. Please use the talk page to discuss changes to the article, and once you have reached an agreement, please let me know or request unprotection. Thanks. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you have protected a version of the article which now includes only a third of the original text, as nearly two-thirds of the article have been deleted by User:Northmeister. See . Onefortyone 02:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

To restate my response on my talk page: Protection is not an endorsement of the current version. Please see m:The Wrong Version. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Section One - name and content

We've tackled the opening above, though, Hoary still is to provide his version - thus that is still being hammered out. It looks good though. Now, to tackle section one - what is its name to be and what shall we include? Possibilities are: Early life or Birth and Ancestry - I prefer "Birth and childhood" I think; which can cover everything to the moment before he recored at Sun Records - leaving that for section two. Any comments? Onefortyone, Hoary what do you guys think? What should be the title and content of section one? Here is my version thus far, as an opening to discussion: --Northmeister 02:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Birth and childhood

Elvis Aron Presley was born on January 8, 1935 at around 4:13 a.m. in a two-room shotgun house in East Tupelo, Mississippi to Vernon Elvis Presley and Gladys Love Smith, a sewing machine operator and a truck driver. His twin brother, Jesse Garon Presley, was stillborn, thus leaving him to grow up as an only child. The surname Presley was Anglicized from the German name "Pressler" during the Civil War. His ancestor Johann Valentin Pressler emigrated to America in 1710. Elvis was mostly of Scottish and English descent, although his family tree also includes Native American, German roots.

When Elvis was three years old, his father Vernon Presley was convicted of forgery. It seems that Vernon, Travis Smith, and Luther Gable changed the amount of a check from Orville Bean, Vernon's boss, from $3 to $8 and cashed it at a local bank. Vernon pled guilty and was sentenced to three years at Parchment Farms Penitentiary. Vernon's boss, Mr. Bass called in a note that Vernon signed to borrow money to build his family's home forcing Gladys Presely and Elvis to move in with Vernon's parents. After serving eight months Vernon was released. The Presley family lived just above the poverty line during their years in East Tupelo. The Presleys attended the First Assembly of God Church whose Pentecostal were filled with song.

In 1945 Elvis, just ten years old, entered a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Decked out in a cowboy outfit, young Elvis had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone singing a rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second place, a $5 prize and a free ticket to all the rides. On his birthday the following January he received a guitar purchased from Tupelo Hardware Store. Over the next year, Vernon's brother Johnny Smith and Assembly of Good pastor Frank Smith. gave him basic guitar lessons

In 1948 the Presley family left Tupelo, moving 110 miles northwest to Memphis, Tennessee. Here too, the thirteen-year-old Elvis lived in the city's poorer section of town and attended a Pentecostal church. At this time, he was very much influenced by the Memphis blues music and the gospel sung at his church.

Elvis's parents were very protective. He "grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." His mother Gladys "worshiped him," said a neighbor, "from the day he was born." Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids."

In his teens, Elvis was still a very shy person, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years." He was teased by his fellow classmates who threw "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy."

Elvis entered Humes High School in Memphis taking up work at the school library and after school at Loew's State Theatre. In 1951 enrolled in the school's ROTC unit, tries unsuccessfully to qualify for the high school football team (he's cut by the coach when he won't trim his sideburns and ducktail}, spending his spare time around the African-American section of Memphis, especially on Beale Street. In 1953 Elvis graduated from Humes, majoring in History, English, and Shop.

After graduation Elvis works first at Parker Machinists Shop, and then for the Precision Tool Company with his father, finally working for the Crown Electric Co. driving a truck, where he began wearing his hair the trademarked pompadoure style. --Northmeister 02:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Take the above and edit it at your will, to include all we should for an encyclopedia, remembering to cover his Birth and growing up til Sun, that should be section two. --Northmeister 02:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my version of the childhood section, based on the first chapter of Guralnick's book:

Elvis' father Vernon Presley is described as a "taciturn to the point of sullenness," whereas his mother Gladys "was voluble, lively, full of spunk." The family was active in church and community. However, in 1938, when Elvis was three years old, his father was convicted of forgery. Vernon, Gladys's brother Travis Smith, and Luther Gable went to prison for altering a check from Orville Bean, Vernon's boss, from $3 to $8 and then cashing it at a local bank. Vernon was sentenced to three years at Parchment Farms Penitentiary. Though after serving eight months Vernon was released, this event deeply influenced the life of the young family. During her husband's absence, Gladys lost the house and was forced to move in briefly with her in-laws next door. The Presley family lived just above the poverty line during their years in East Tupelo.

In 1941 Elvis started school at the East Tupelo Consolidated. There he seems to have been an outsider. His few friends relate that he was separate from any crowd and did not belong to any "gang", but, according to his teachers, he was a sweet and average student, and he loved comic books. In 1943 Vernon moved to Memphis, where he found work and stayed throughout the war, coming home only on weekends. This certainly strengthened the relationship between mother and boy. According to Guralnick, the common story that the Presleys formed a popular gospel trio who sang in church and travelled about to various revival meetings is not true.

In 1946 Elvis started a new school, Milam, which went from grades 5 through 9, but in 1948 the Presley family left Tupelo, moving 110 miles northwest to Memphis, Tennessee. Here too, the thirteen-year-old Elvis lived in the city's poorer section of town and attended a Pentecostal church. At this time, he was very much influenced by the Memphis blues music and the gospel sung at his church.

Elvis entered Humes High School in Memphis taking up work at the school library and after school at Loew's State Theatre. In 1951 enrolled in the school's ROTC unit, tries unsuccessfully to qualify for the high school football team (he's cut by the coach when he won't trim his sideburns and ducktail}, spending his spare time around the African-American section of Memphis, especially on Beale Street. In 1953 Elvis graduated from Humes, majoring in History, English, and Shop.

After graduation Elvis works first at Parker Machinists Shop, and then for the Precision Tool Company with his father, finally working for the Crown Electric Co. driving a truck, where he began wearing his hair the trademarked pompadoure style.

Elvis's parents were very protective. He "grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." His mother Gladys "worshiped him," said a neighbor, "from the day he was born." Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids."

In his teens, Elvis was still a very shy person, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years." He was teased by his fellow classmates who threw "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy."

In 1953 Elvis was still "a shy, introverted mama's boy in a town full of bullies". At the start of his fame, guitarist Scotty Moore attested that the singer was a "typical coddled son" and "very shy": "His mama would corner me and say, 'Take care of my boy. Make sure he eats. Make sure he -' You know, whatever. Typical mother stuff." But Elvis "didn't seem to mind; there was nothing phony about it, he truly loved his mother." Moore adds that Elvis "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." Gladys was so proud of her boy, that she "would get up early in the morning to run off the fans so Elvis could sleep". She was frightened of Elvis being hurt: "She knew her boy, and she knew he could take care of himself, but what if some crazy man came after him with a gun? she said...tears streaming down her face."

I hope we are able to find a compromise. Onefortyone 03:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Your version is similar to mine, the Scotty Moore stuff, is not right, because that belongs to the next section when he is at Sun Records if at all. You constantly quote needless material, we don't need extensive quote from one author, we need a summary of these things. I'll take a good look at your rendition and offer a solution between the two. Hoary, what do you think or anyone else out there? Maybe we should go paragragh by paragraph here, as you exclude the entire first paragraph on his being born, not standard for an article to do. The second paragraph is similar to mine except (as your first) you again offer a quote that is not helpful or needed at that point. I am unsure of why you added that. Like I said, I will look it over and need others comments on the two versions. --Northmeister 03:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not excluding the first paragraph. It perhaps needs some rewriting. The fact that Elvis's father was described as a "taciturn to the point of sullenness" is important. It helps to explain the strong influence of his voluble mother. Onefortyone 04:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sandbox?

I am not sure this procedure is working. My hope was collaboration towards a worthy article by wikipedia standards (see Louis Armstrong or The Beatles. I really do not have any agenda, nor am I in for deleting worthy material. What I am trying to engineer is a credible organization for the article from which we can work. Once we have this we can decide what is worthy to include and what is not. Elvis was a phenomenon by all standards. He changed the way people listened to and looked at music. He made movies, and thus was an actor, whether good or bad is POV is irrelevant. He was both an icon and a man. To a large extent the Colonel controlled his career, for better or worse - but Elvis broke with him in 1968 with his comeback special. His music inspired the Beatles among others. Like other rock stars he had imperfections - weight problems, drug problems, sleeping problems, and marital problems - what belongs depends on what this article is - it is a biography in brief about the man, his life, his music, his impact. It is neither for him or against him but NPOV. It should reflect all the Louis Armstrong and Beatles articles reflect and live up to wikipedia standards. There is no point in quoting directly numerous times from one source or others, but to give summary of the thoughts of authors directly related to the subject matter. If each of us can agree on this criteria, on working in harmony to achieve a balanced NPOV verifiable article, then we can all be proud of our efforts here. It has been noted that I am a fan - that is true. But, I do not think it does Elvis justice to reduce the human side of the man, his flaws for example or to promote an image without the substance. I am not about doing that nor about including material that ignores the recorded history in favor of exaggerated claims. We must be balanced, neutral, and provide an article whose length is appropriate for an encyclopedia. THEREFORE I PROPOSE A SANDBOX, which I think ought to be set up to work on this article. Let us work out disagreements there. If we all can agree that we are here to help out and do worthy job at producing a worthy article then let us begin to build an article up to par with the Louis Armstrong and Beatles article. I ask the one who protected the page to somehow let us set up a sandbox to work with, I'm not sure how exactly. I extend my offer of reconciliation and collaboration to all who can agree with me here. What say the rest of you? Sandbox? --Northmeister 01:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

HERE IS SOMETHING TEMPORARY TO WORK as a SANDBOX OF SORTS: Talk:Elvis_Presley/Sandbox --Northmeister 01:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

GROUND RULES: Let's stay in the format - if you feel a new header needs creating address the concern below this sentence. Other material you feel needs including, add it and see where it takes us. Don't get offended by other editors re-arranging or taking out material or putting it back in. The purpose is to work on this until we agree. Let's be polite and reasonable and try to collaborate to success. Some material I took out, of other headers. Let's address that material in the the headers already there in context. --Northmeister 01:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

See my new version of the opening above. It is a revision of Hoary's version. Onefortyone 01:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting - work with the sandbox until we flesh out a workable version. Please work within the ground rules. If you feel a new header needs creating, lets address that below. If material deleted needs re-inclusion, add it and see where it gets us. --Northmeister 01:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the Colonel organized the Memphis "comeback" concert in 1968. Presley NEVER broke with the Colonel, as Parker still managed his career in 1977. Elvis didn't change the way we look at music, all he did was copy black performers and thereby appeal to racist Middle America. And I would never, NEVER, call Presley an actor. (195.93.21.67 15:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

Your not being helpful...constantly spout off racist rhetoric...have a flawed view of events (Parker wished for a traditional version of the 68 Xmas special, and Elvis vetoed that) etc. What is your point - if you hate Elvis, then goto My-Space or start a blog and blog away. If you have sourced based information, that is verifiable then offer it. Don't hide behind anonymity...get an account and show us your not just here to disrupt wikipedia with nonsense. --Northmeister 16:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

While working on a "sandbox" draft, please keep the categories inactive - they are only for main namespace articles. -Will Beback 00:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, wasn't aware that they were active...I see you've deactivated them...thanks. --Northmeister 01:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Protection from Editing

"When adult programmers announced they would not play Elvis' music on their radio stations due to religious convinctions that Elvis music was 'devil music' and to racist beliefs that it was "nigger music."

This is a sentence fragment that I'm just dying to fix. If someone has the power to unlock the page, please remove the "when" at the beginning of the sentence! This is nothing controversial, just a scandalous grammatical error ;)Polyhymnia

Done. And while I was about it I fixed "convinctions" for good measure. The page is still protected.

Incidentally, your polite, reasoned, signed request for an uncontroversial fix is very refreshing. Do please stick around. -- Hoary 03:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hoary, as Northmeister seems to have taken a Wiki-break, you may also include the first paragraphs from the 'Sandbox' in the article:

Elvis Aron Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977), known simply as Elvis and also marketed as "The King of Rock 'n' Roll" or "The King", was an American singer. He also acted for a period of time in lightweight movies.

Presley started as a singer of rockabilly, borrowing many songs from rhythm and blues numbers and country standards. He was for some time the most commercially successful singer of rock and roll, but he also sang ballads, and then moved toward country music. Personally, gospel was the music he cherished above all. Throughout his musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings and record sales. He has become one of the biggest selling solo artist in U.S. music history.

The young Elvis has become an icon of modern American pop culture, sometimes held to represent the American Dream of rising from rags to riches through talent and hard work, more often representing teen sexuality with a hint of delinquency. During the 1970s, Elvis reemerged as a steady performer of old hits and new songs on tour and particularly in Las Vegas, Nevada, where he, as a nightclub performer, became known for wearing his standard jump-suit costumes. Until the last years of his life, he continued to perform before sell-out audiences around the country. He died, presumably from a heart attack combined with abuse of prescription drugs, in Memphis, Tennessee. As a singer, his popularity survived his death at 42.

Protection removal

Is there an ongoing need for page protection? -Will Beback 21:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably not, as the dispute between two registered users has abated. I'll change it to semi-protection, as a truculent and persistent IP insists on reinserting unsourced junk. -- Hoary 05:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Birth and ancestry

Elvis Aron Presley was born on January 8, 1935 at around 4:13 a.m. in a two-room shotgun house in East Tupelo, Mississippi to Vernon Elvis Presley and Gladys Love Smith, a sewing machine operator and a truck driver. His twin brother, Jesse Garon Presley, was stillborn, thus leaving him to grow up as an only child. The surname Presley was Anglicized from the German name "Pressler" during the Civil War. His ancestor Johann Valentin Pressler emigrated to America in 1710. Elvis was mostly of Scottish and English descent, although his family tree also includes Native American, German roots.

Parents, childhood and youth

Elvis' father Vernon Presley is described as a "taciturn to the point of sullenness," whereas his mother Gladys "was voluble, lively, full of spunk." The family was active in church and community. However, in 1938, when Elvis was three years old, his father was convicted of forgery. Vernon, Gladys's brother Travis Smith, and Luther Gable went to prison for altering a check from Orville Bean, Vernon's boss, from $3 to $8 and then cashing it at a local bank. Vernon was sentenced to three years at Parchment Farms Penitentiary. Though after serving eight months Vernon was released, this event deeply influenced the life of the young family. During her husband's absence, Gladys lost the house and was forced to move in briefly with her in-laws next door. The Presley family lived just above the poverty line during their years in East Tupelo.

In 1941 Elvis started school at the East Tupelo Consolidated. There he seems to have been an outsider. His few friends relate that he was separate from any crowd and did not belong to any "gang", but, according to his teachers, he was a sweet and average student, and he loved comic books. In 1943 Vernon moved to Memphis, where he found work and stayed throughout the war, coming home only on weekends. This certainly strengthened the relationship between mother and boy. According to Peter Guralnick, the common story that the Presleys formed a popular gospel trio who sang in church and travelled about to various revival meetings is not true.

In 1946 Elvis started a new school, Milam, which went from grades 5 through 9, but in 1948 the Presley family left Tupelo, moving 110 miles northwest to Memphis, Tennessee. Here too, the thirteen-year-old Elvis lived in the city's poorer section of town and attended a Pentecostal church. At this time, he was very much influenced by the Memphis blues music and the gospel sung at his church.

Elvis entered Humes High School in Memphis taking up work at the school library and after school at Loew's State Theatre. In 1951 enrolled in the school's ROTC unit, tries unsuccessfully to qualify for the high school football team (he's cut by the coach when he won't trim his sideburns and ducktail}, spending his spare time around the African-American section of Memphis, especially on Beale Street. In 1953 Elvis graduated from Humes, majoring in History, English, and Shop.

After graduation Elvis worked first at Parker Machinists Shop, and then for the Precision Tool Company with his father, finally working for the Crown Electric Company driving a truck, where he began wearing his hair the trademarked pompadoure style.

Elvis's parents were very protective. He "grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." His mother Gladys "worshiped him," said a neighbor, "from the day he was born." Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids."

In his teens, Elvis was still a very shy person, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years." He was teased by his fellow classmates who threw "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." Gladys was so proud of her boy, that, years later, she "would get up early in the morning to run off the fans so Elvis could sleep". She was frightened of Elvis being hurt: "She knew her boy, and she knew he could take care of himself, but what if some crazy man came after him with a gun? she said...tears streaming down her face."

I think these paragraphs are well sourced, but you may change or rearrange some parts of the text before including it in the article, if you like. Onefortyone 10:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I am going to include the above paragraph in the actual article - I'll let you work on talk as I stated on your talk page for another day - then we'll see where we can arrange items and agree. --Northmeister 04:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC) - PS. I see it is already added. Looks good. --Northmeister 04:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Very minor edit

Could somebody please change the link to "Chinese people" (second from bottom in "Elvis Trivia") to "People's Republic of China", as Chinese People is a disambiguation page. Thanks. --Daduzi 16:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

You can do it. The page is only semi-protected. See Template_talk:Sprotected for the ongoing debate on how to identify semi-protected pages. Haukur 10:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, it was fully protected when you made that request. Never mind me, then :) Haukur 10:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha, well thanks for the heads up anyway, I've gone ahead and made the change. One down, only another 300 or so to go. --Daduzi 15:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Movies section

I am not happy with your version of the movies section, Northmeister. All critics agree that Elvis' movies are pretty bad. Which source says that it was his lifelong passion to make movies? Most publications dealing with the films say that he didn't like his own movies. See also this website which claims that "Elvis dreamed of being the next Dean or Brando". Are there any Elvis biographies supporting this view? Onefortyone 19:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes to your last question, Down the End of Lonely Street mentions his tastes in actors and his dreams about movie making. Elvis disliked making movies because they became one and the same to him just different locations and different songs. The version there does not advocate for or against his films, it indicates NPOV statement about them. We must avoid POV expressions either way. When Elvis was young he was a movie usher and dreamed of being on the big screen - therefore once he made it in singing he naturally took an interest in movies and wished to do dramatic roles like James Dean and others. He was offered such roles, but the Colonel vetoed them. Elvis considered King Creole his best movie and the one he like the most. It is not true he disliked all his movies. Further as trivia, his mother did not like the original version of Love Me Tender because she didn't like seeing her son killed on the screen, so they added Elvis singing at the end. Elvis would not watch Loving You because his mother had a cameo role in the audience when he sang Teddy Bear (from which he was sent thousands of teddy bears in the mail) - all this from his official biography at EPE and from Down the End of Lonely Street as well as several documentaries on the man, and Elvis by the Presley's. --Northmeister 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC) -PS> All this is not to say we can't make improvements. I am open to suggestions on the sandbox, which I updated to be like the original is now so far. I think a relationship section belongs, it just needs more summary and less direct quotes and less POV at times - an overall reduction in size. Some of the material from relationships belongs in other headers, like about his mother - but I am curious to your thoughts. --Northmeister 20:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What I have included in the movies section is well sourced. See the direct quotes from independent books on Elvis. Would you please also provide direct quotes from sources which support your statements above. By the way, Hoary and other editors of the Elvis article are also of the opinion that the singer's movies are pretty bad. Onefortyone 20:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I included the critics section, just in a different order. I don't see the problem here. It is not whether we believe his movies are bad or not; I personally like Jailhouse Rock, Loving You, King Creole, GI Blues and Change of Heart (and like his tour movies in 70's) but dislike most of his other stuff, but that doesn't matter - it only matters that we record here accurately what fans (who went to see the films making many money winners) and critics stated. That has been done - critics have the same complaints I do and others - lack of depth and plot. Thats included. So again, I don't see the problem here. --Northmeister 20:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You have deleted critical passages which are well sourced. A Misplaced Pages article should cite what is written in published sources on Elvis, not what you personally like. In his book, 10 Sure Signs a Movie Character is Doomed: And Other Surprising Movie Lists (2003), Richard Roeper writes (p.32), "Sure, Elvis Presley made a lot of movies and he was fairly comfortable onscreen playing a sanitized version of himself — but they were all BAD movies. ... Not only that, but Elvis spent so much time churning out these forgettable B-flicks that he lost his musical way for nearly a decade... Elvis may be the most spectacular failure in the singer-turned-actor category, but he's far from being alone." Onefortyone 20:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There are hundreds of authors willing to make a buck off the Presley name. We are not obligated to quote them all, but to summarize the generally accepted synthesis of material from well researched authors. Again, what your beef is other than wanting to call his movies 'bad' which is POV. There is already mention of critics not liking the movies. So what is the problem here? --Northmeister 20:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Film critics say that his movies are bad. That's the difference. I can understand that Elvis fans are not happy with this fact, but a Misplaced Pages article is not a fan site. It should cite what independent authors have written in published sources. The fact is that you have deleted quotes from books on Elvis and his films. This is not acceptable. Onefortyone 21:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I have now included some more quotes from books which prove that the critical remarks in the movies section are well sourced. Furthermore, I have not yet seen direct quotes from independent sources which support the following passages:

Perhaps the biggest letdown of Elvis' film career was when "Colonel" Parker convinced him to give up the lead role in the film version of West Side Story. Elvis was approached at first by the producers, being their favorite choice among several leading men. He originally wanted to play the role, but Parker insisted he pull out to star in the musicals he was accustomed to. From 1960 to 1961, the total box office earnings of his movies were $100 million, but he was upset upon learning that West Side Story was a huge hit and earned ten Academy Awards. Till the end of his life, Presley never forgave the "Colonel" for his loss, and he never watched his films, which were, according to him, travellogue movies with no plot but exotic locales.

Other big disappointments included when the "Colonel" persuaded him not to audition for a main role in The Godfather, Cat On a Hot Tin Roof, The Defiant Ones, Midnight Cowboy, and A Star Is Born with Barbra Streisand. All these roles led to box office success, critical acclaim, and Academy Awards for the actors that took his place. Elvis never really got over these chances, which would have boosted his acting career. He had always wanted to be a serious actor since his boyhood.

Are there any published books which support these claims? If not, all the unproved stories about giving up main roles in West Side Story, The Godfather etc. may be removed. Onefortyone 23:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

All I have been doing is rearranging your text in context and removing overly long quotes that are redundant. I don't understand your problem here. We should summarize with a few quotes (not make this article full of quotes out of books) the material on Elvis - in this section pertaining to his movies. I've not removed criticism but put it into context and worded it in a NPOV way. Again, what is your beef about what I have done? See Sandbox... --Northmeister 23:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You are not telling the truth, Northmeister. What you are doing is not rearranging my text. As everybody can see, you have deliberately deleted well-sourced passages from the movies section which are not in line with your positive view of Elvis as a movie star. See , , , , , etc. What you are doing is not NPOV. Onefortyone 23:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You misjudge my motivations here entirely. I don't understand your hostility. Chill out a bit, we are not enemies - but fellow editors trying to get it right (I hope). Provide below what you think I deleted or have cause against and we will work it out. --Northmeister 00:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the revised paragraph including well-sourced material. Unsourced passages have been deleted:

Elvis was an enthusiastic James Dean fan and returned from the military eager to make a career as a movie star, although "he was definitely not the most talented actor around." According to Tom Lisanti, he "became a film genre of his own, though his hip-swaying, hard-rocking musical style of the fifties was tuned down considerably during the sixties." Pop film staples of the early sixties, such as the Presley musicals and the AlP beach movies were mainly produced for a teenage audience and called "stupid movies" or a "pantheon of bad taste" In the sixties, at Colonel Parker's command, Elvis withdrew from concerts and television appearances, after his final appearance with Frank Sinatra on NBC entitled "Welcome Home Elvis" where he sang "Witchcraft/Love Me Tender" with Sinatra, in order to make "dumb beach and race car movies.". "He blamed his fading popularity on his humdrum movies," Priscilla Presley recalled in her 1985 autobiography, Elvis and Me. "He loathed their stock plots and short shooting schedules. He could have demanded better, more substantial scripts but he didn't." Instead, the singer "continued to make the movies and record the dismal soundtracks, putting forth less effort with each new release. Artistically speaking, no one blamed him. The scripts were all the same, the songs progressively worse." Indeed, the movies-songs were "written on order by men who never really understood Elvis or rock and roll, such as 'Rock-a-Hula Baby', 'Beach Boy Blues,' and 'Ito Eats.' " Significantly, in his book, Elvis in Hollywood, Paul Lichter calls Paradise, Hawaiian Style "a really poor film featuring a very poor soundtrack." For Blue Hawaii and its "soundtrack LP, recorded in Los Angeles before Elvis went to Hawaii for the Arizona benefit, fourteen songs were cut in just three days." Billy Poore confirms that Elvis, in his movies of the early sixties, was "singin' silly songs like 'There's No Room to Rhumba in a Sports Car' " Julie Parrish "had the dubious distinction of being serenaded by the King with the infamous song 'It's a Dog's Life' in Paradise, Hawaiian Style. 'Elvis hated this song,' says Julie, chuckling. 'I have the outtakes on a rare bootleg album. He couldn't stop laughing while he was recording it.' "

No wonder that most film critics chastised these movies for their lack of depth, but fans turned out and they managed to be profitable. According to Jerry Hopkins's book, Elvis in Hawaii, Presley's "pretty-as-a-postcard movies" even "boosted the new state's (Hawaii) tourism. Some of his most enduring and popular songs came from those movies." Altogether, Elvis had made 31 movies during the 1960's, "which had grossed about $130 million, and he had sold a hundred million records, which had made $150 million."

I hope this new version of the movies section is now satisfactory to all, as it is supported by many independent sources. This is what the article needs: quotes from published books. I have also rewritten the 1968 comeback section. I think the quotes concerning Elvis's movies should be included in the movies section. I am frequently citing my sources, but I have not yet seen direct quotes from the sources Northmeister claims to have used. Onefortyone 02:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that any critic (let alone scholar) has seriously claimed that Presley's movies were first-rate. When they bother with them at all, most treat them collectively as of little significance, or simply as junk. But I have also read that he's tolerably good in a major role in King Creole, which is a solid film in its modest way (Danny Peary, Guide for the Film Fanatic), and also that two or three of his other movies are watchable even for many people who aren't Presley fans.

Decades ago, a lot of people paid a lot of money to watch these movies, which in toto were immensely successful in business (even if no other) terms. That in itself is significant. So let's say so clearly and without sarcasm.

(Incidentally I've never watched any and never wanted to. I have suffered through some Star Wars movie, which I thought was stunningly moronic at just about every level. Beats me why that stuff is taken seriously....)

As for the quality of the movies, we should cite sources that show an understanding that these were, and should sensibly be rated as, genre products. Anyone is free to loathe the genre, but if somebody loathes the genre then there's no point in citing how he disses individual examples of the genre.

Now please all calm down and proceed in a civilized fashion within the sandbox. Thank you. -- Hoary 08:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It should be mentioned in the article that Bing Crosby, the biggest selling recording artist in history, made movies which were of a much higher quality than Presley's, and won an Oscar as Best Actor for "Going My Way" (plus four Oscars for songs), while Presley's movies were not nominated for any awards. ... added at 20:34, 26 June 2006 by 195.93.21.67

If you feel so strongly about this, AOLuser, then join the fun in the sandbox. Do remember, though, that this article is about Presley, not Crosby, Jackson, or any comparison among them. -- Hoary 08:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

From what I can see, one user has done a good thing and summarised the critical response with sentences like this: 'Most film critics chastised his movies for their lack of depth, but fans turned out and they managed to be profitable'. While the other user insists on inserting a large wad of quotes from various authors (though he/she seems to have only taken sources from authors that hate the movies). Personally, just summarising the critical response is better than a huge wad of quotes that are inproportionally weighted.--58.169.48.128 08:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

There's much in what you say. Sourcing is fine, and critical (even hostile) commentary is fine, but comments can usually be summarized and their sources provided in footnotes. (After all, one important aim of an encyclopedia article is concision.) Not being much interested in Presley, I don't have positive commentary to hand; if you do, you are of course free to summarize and cite that too. -- Hoary 09:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Article is locked

Because an edit war is going on, I locked the article.

As is normal, I locked the most recent version, without looking to see if it is preferable to the immediately previous or any other version. -- Hoary 08:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

who locked page in POV

"Lightweight movies"... POV at it's most blatant! Someone should delete! 205.188.116.195 22:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No ones' done anything. Come on Wiki editor, sort it out!

I locked it, and I did so in view of an edit war.

Please discuss changes here, and make changes in this talk page's sandbox. When you've all calmed down, somebody (perhaps I) will unlock the page.

Incidentally, while full protection may well be removed very soon, semi-protection is likely to stay a little longer. You may wish to get a username. -- Hoary 10:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Offer to assist editor and request to partially protect

I (as my username might suggest) am a psychologist (Ph.D.) who has studied Presley academically for over 3 decades. My minor was English literature and I actually reviewed some of the literature on Presley's cultural impact. I must say, the current lead section in the Misplaced Pages article is poorly written. "has become one of the biggest selling solo artist?" (sic). Where is the "s"? In addition, the lead section is a very poor and biased summary of the artist and his accomplishments (recordings, etc.) and cultural impact. I would be happy to assist you in editing this particular article, if you like. If this is not assistance you seek, I certainly hope you reduce the level of protection to allow for edits of this. The current version is likely the poorest article, as it stands, I have seen in the past year. It was actually quite good 6 months ago!

On 7 April, at a time when the Elvis page was unprotected, you included only this sentence in the article:

As of 2006, more than a quarter century after his death, Elvis remains the best selling solo artist in U. S. history, accoring to the R.I.A.A.(http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/010804.asp).

See . There are similar contributions to the Garth Brooks and Best-selling music artist articles. See and . This website should not be your only source of information. As you claim to be an Elvis expert, I am sure you can provide dozens of independent sources (books on Elvis, peer-reviewed essays, incl. page numbers) in order to support your view. Onefortyone 18:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It so happens your Garth Brooks attribution is stale. Garth Brooks was surpassed by Elvis Presley in sales in 2006 according to the RIAA. And, additionally, stating I should "cite lots of other sources" for the claim that Presley is the best selling US (and worldwide) artist, the RIAA IS the authority who determines that!! So, what other sources could be added? Makes no sense at all.

The International Informations Programs of the U. S. GOVERNMENT just issued a June 27 note that stated Elvis Presley was determined to be the BEST SELLING ARTIST IN HISTORY according to the R. I. A. A.

Unfortunately, I don't think you have researched this matter at all and apparently fail to understand that the R. I. A. A. is the only authoritative source for record sales in this country. If you don't "accept" their determinations, whose are you using? Your own? That is not what a Misplaced Pages article should be based upon. shrink2u Shrink2u 20:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I welcome any editors who wish to help out here. There is presently a sandbox that we are working on, and it needs lots of work as you state. Right now it represents the main article with minor exceptions. I am glad you've studied Elvis and his impact; any help you may need just ask. See above for link to Sandbox under that section. --Northmeister 23:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

I have now included a shorter version of the movies section in the sandbox. I have removed words like "stupid", but I think it is important to say that critics called the movies "a pantheon of bad taste" and that Elvis didn't like the songs written for these films. As Elvis already didn't like the movies of the early sixties, I think the quote from Priscilla Presley's book must be included in the movies section. Somebody else may add that Elvis acted well in some of his earlier films. If the editor could provide direct quotes from published books in order to support his/her contribution, this would be fine. I have removed the passages concerning West Side Story, The Godfather etc., as I have not yet seen a reliable source supporting these claims. This stuff has been included by an anonymous IP on 29 March 2006. See . The same user has also included the same nonsense in the Tab Hunter and Anthony Perkins articles. See and . See also this contribution by the same editor using a similar IP: . In my opinion, this vandal deliberately added false information to three different Misplaced Pages articles. I do not think that there is a published source supporting this stuff. Therefore, the whole West Side Story paragraph must be removed.Onefortyone 17:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I will check your recent edits to see how it works and offer my edits if necessary. --Northmeister 23:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC) -I still think it needs work - but lets move on, as it is better than the longer version.

Thanks. It could well be that I made a mistake concerning the West Side Story stuff, as another user added similar paragraphs to the West Side Story (film) article. See . However, I have not yet seen a reliable source supporting the claims. Onefortyone 23:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Relationships

I think the relationships part is too long and needs a article all its own. Therefore I move to create an article "Elvis Presley's Relationships" or "Relationships of Elvis Presley" and move that material ther with a brief summary for the main article. --Northmeister 23:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Trivia Section

The trivia section seems very poorly organized. Would it be possible to break up the section into at least a couple of subheadings - ie

===Film Career=== ===Singing Career=== ===Personal Appearances===

etc.? As it is, it is hard to wade through.Michael Dorosh 23:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah give it your best shot. I would suggest the sandbox before the main article (see sandbox above for link). Feel free to edit any portion of the sandbox where you think it needs improvements. --Northmeister 23:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I just gave it a start - I'll post it in the Sandbox and others can finalize it.Michael Dorosh 23:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Graceland, Secretary Norton Designates Elvis Presley's Graceland Mansion National Historic Landmark (March 27, 2006)
2. RIAA, Elvis Presley Now Best Selling Solo Artist in U.S. History (January 8, 2004).
3. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
4. "All about Elvis." (This figure refers to combined sales of both long-playing albums and singles, in either vinyl or compact disc format. NB technical faults in this page may render it impossible to read.)
5. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
6. "All about Elvis." (This figure refers to combined sales of both long-playing albums and singles, in either vinyl or compact disc format. NB technical faults in this page may render it impossible to read.)
7. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
8. "All about Elvis." (This figure refers to combined sales of both long-playing albums and singles, in either vinyl or compact disc format. NB technical faults in this page may render it impossible to read.)
9. Graceland, Secretary Norton Designates Elvis Presley's Graceland Mansion National Historic Landmark (March 27, 2006)
10. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
11. "All about Elvis." (This figure refers to combined sales of both long-playing albums and singles, in either vinyl or compact disc format. NB technical faults in this page may render it impossible to read.)
12. Graceland, Secretary Norton Designates Elvis Presley's Graceland Mansion National Historic Landmark (March 27, 2006)
13. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
14. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
15. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
16. "Elvis roots 'lead to Scotland'"; a 23 March 2004 BBC story that cites Allan Morrison, the author of the then-unpublished book The Presley Prophecy.
17. Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.13.
18. Guralnick, p.13.
19. Guralnick, p.149
20. Guralnick, p.36, referring to an account by singer Barbara Pittman and Patrick Humphries, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics, p.117.
21. Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.12.
22. Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.13.
23. Guralnick, p.13.
24. Guralnick, p.149
25. Guralnick, p.36, referring to an account by singer Barbara Pittman and Patrick Humphries, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics, p.117.
26. Billy Poore, Rockabilly: A Forty-Year Journey, p.2.
27. Quoted in Guralnick, p. 149.
28. Guralnick, p.280.
29. Guralnick, p.346.
30. He had 104 singles in the US top 40, almost twice as many as the runner-up, with 17 of these reaching number one according to Billboard's 2005 revised methodology. Billboard, How They Got to 17 (December 22, 2005).
31. "Elvis roots 'lead to Scotland'"; a 23 March 2004 BBC story that cites Allan Morrison, the author of the then-unpublished book The Presley Prophecy.
32. Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.12.
33. Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.13.
34. Guralnick, p.13.
35. Guralnick, p.149
36. Guralnick, p.36, referring to an account by singer Barbara Pittman and Patrick Humphries, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics, p.117.
37. Guralnick, p.280.
38. Guralnick, p.346.
39. Others included Warren Beatty, Anthony Perkins, Richard Chamberlain, Tab Hunter, Bobby Darin, Gary Lockwood, and Troy Donahue.
40. Leo Verswijver, Movies Were Always Magical: Interviews with 19 Actors, Directors, and Producers from the Hollywood of the 1930s through the 1950s (2002), p.129.
41. Tom Lisanti, Fantasy Femmes of 60's Cinema: Interviews with 20 Actresses from Biker, Beach, and Elvis Movies (2000), p.18.
42. Billy Poore, Rockabilly: A Forty-Year Journey (1998), p.116.
43. Andrew Caine, Interpreting Rock Movies: The Pop Film and Its Critics in Britain, p. 21.
44. Poore, Rockabilly, p.20.
45. Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendrickx, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream (1999), p.67.
46. Jerry Hopkins, Elvis in Hawaii (2002), p.32.
47. Hopkins, p.31
48. Poore, Rockabilly, p.27.
49. Tom Lisanti, Fantasy Femmes of 60's Cinema, p.19, 136.
50. Hopkins, Elvis in Hawaii, p. vii
51. Magdalena Alagna, Elvis Presley (2002)