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This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Seven (7) Day Archiving

Can we switch to (a minium) seven-instead of five-day archiving on all desks? I know for a fact that certain users of ours can only get access weekly at cafes. Seems rather odd to archive their questions before they can se the answers. μηδείς (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, though not super strongly. Threads are effectively exhausted anyway after a few days, so they would only be reading, not posting. Still, that seems like a good thing in itself. IBE (talk) 00:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Threads used to be kept visible for up to a week through the transclusion process. Why was that approach abandoned? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:27, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

See discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_105#archiving_changes_imminent. I see you may not have been around then, although you are present on what was probably the same page a couple of weeks later. 86.146.28.105 (talk) 20:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I somehow failed to notice that. The thing is, though, I'm pretty sure transclusion was done as a creative alternative to having a week's worth online. It was thought that the page would load faster and you could still get to see a week's worth. Now that the transclusion approach has been trashed, we're back to needing to go the full week online - and some are already getting worried about having too much on the page! Can't have it both ways, y'all! ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'd just like to clarify that I do have in mind a specific long-time user who can only access the internet weekly at this point. I am sure that must aplly to lots of potential users. An "archived at the end of the eighth day policy would help in that case. Also, I don't think any of the current five-day archival threads are causing paper shortages at this point. μηδείς (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If there is a good-faith fellow-editor interested in using our assistance and eager to learn (and I think I know whom Medeis meant) to whom an eight day period would be of significant service, then I'd suggest we implement it, unless the greater sizes hamper the desks' usability for other editors, of course. That wouldn't be the case for me, and I'm not very high-tech, but I am ignorant about how it might affect other people interested in using the desks. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Mobile device users might have a problem, although it should not be huge. My China Mobile internet is about as sucky as it gets sometimes (slow and cranky), although I usually use a PC. The mobile is usually only for Google translate. If you used it for WP, it might get very annoying, esp if the mobile site wasn't suitable for some reason. IBE (talk) 00:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Mobile devices (and people on slow connections) are my concern as well. The science desk is usually the outlier; it tends to have longer response and also is more likely to have graphics inserted into it (there are currently three); it's not app-breaking, but a 60% increase in size is probably going to create performance issues for some people. I don't doubt that we have users that can only access us once a week, but I also don't doubt that we have users with slow connections and/or metered downloads. Are there any suggestions for how we can cater to both groups? I've long been partial to total transclusion as is done at places like WP:FPC; we could keep the translcuded days small for dial-up users while less frequent visitors could always visit the transcluded subpage to get their follow-up. It's an awfully large-scale change, though. Matt Deres (talk) 15:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

One suggestion would be to keep the titles up on the "live" page, but not the actual answers. Then at least they can quickly click on the topics. Something would have to alert a casual user like me that I'm going to load a page from the archives if I click a topic from the "live" page, but that shouldn't be hard. It's quicker than looking up the archives for a list of questions, and it's really speed and convenience that we are talking about here. As a side note, I suggested a while back that we should do a single page that contains all the question headings for all the ref desks, so clicking the topic on this "central" page would take you to that page. In the case of an archived question (eg. 7 days old), it would just take you to the archives. This might help a lot of people as well, in terms of convenience. IBE (talk) 16:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The big problem for my friend, about whom Sluzzelin's presumption is most likely correct (but whom we should not even attempt identify for various valid reasons, including policy ones) is an inability to check for answers or followup questions more frequently than once a week whether with my help or alone. I somewhat understand the phone concern. But don't such users have actual computer access at home, work, or school? I have never sent a text myself, so it is hard for me to see how serious a problem mobile internet telephony really is. 02:22, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

10% of Americans only have broadband access on their phones. That's just Americans. The use of smartphones is taking off in other countries with lower standards of living where people don't have home PCs. I'd pull up those figures too but I'm on my iPad right now and it's not as easy to do the typing and pasting and such. (First world problem) Dismas| 03:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I personally really don't know how to address or even look at this. I learned BASIC when I was 12, typeset the college newspaper with Pagemaker on a MAC, had a beeper, spent ten years directly programming people's switch-to-domicile phone service using legacy Bell systems, typeset prestigious magazines on 40 year-old powerhoses, and now in semi-retirement use wikicode fairly well, but feel entirely ignorant of the underlying issues. I am fairly certain I have clarified the position of the user whom I think we should accommodate. I hope people more experienced than I can make a rational decision. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Would going back to the transclusion process fix this problem? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

If you go back to the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_105#archiving_changes_imminent and look at the tables you'll see that, no, it would not.

It's been a very long time since any of the desks kept a week's worth of history (transcluded or otherwise). At peak volume, the popular desks would be difficult to use at that size. Today, with volume dropping off, it might be workable.

I hope I don't sound too insensitive, though, when I suggest that before making such a change, I'd really like to hear from the editor who actually needs it. We've got a systen that's evolved over many years to meet the complicated, often contradictory needs of thousands of people, and I'd be reluctant to make a significant change to it just because of what one person claims one other (unnamed) person would like. —Steve Summit (talk) 18:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Not at all insensitive, I also assume many have guessed, but there are very good personal and policy reasons not to out this user. If anyone has any concern they can email me, and I have emailed Steve. As I have tried to emphasize, this is a matter I think we should consider, especially given he declining volume in the 5 day threads. And I realize there may be technical reasons why it would be a bitch to do. μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

If there are technical or other concerns about doing this, and if the user does have access to the internet every week, they could also check the archived questions and feel free to re-post the thread, or start a new one, linking back, for follow-ups. As long as it's clear it's no one exploiting our willingness to assume good faith (little ponies and stage fencers come to mind, but this isn't about them) I don't think anyone will mind (and our most ardent censor is already on the side of said user with limited access anyway :-). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The reason for stopping transclusion seems to be that some editors found it confusing when they thought they were editing the live page and were actually editing the archive. That confused me too - once. It's not a problem. You should go back to the old way and that should resolve the issue. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's consider the Humanities desk. Before transclusion was abandoned in January, the Humanities desk kept 5.5 days of history, on average. Since that change, the Humanities desk keeps 5.5 days of history, on average. As I understand it, Medeis is requesting that all desks keep 7+ days of history. So how does reinstating transclusion address the issue? (Yes, it would be perfectly straightforward to increase the history period to 7 or 8 or more days, but it would be equally straightforward to do so with or without transclusion. Am I missing something?) —Steve Summit (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

It is claimed that too many days visible causes the screen to load too slowly on hand-helds. Is that also true if the data is transcluded? If so, that shoots my theory. How about this alternative? Provide visible links to recent archives. That should fix the page-loading problem and also make it easy to get to recent archives. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:55, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Transclusion does not affect the load time when viewing. (I'm sure of this for conventional browsers, and mostly sure for mobile.) Transclusion mostly affects the load time when editing. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:55, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

The user does not necessarily have internet access, let's say, every Saturday. They can go to a cafe, or use, on occasion, a third party to contact me via email for free, and only email. Not internet access. If a question is relayed to me and posted on Saturday the 1st, and a request for clarification is posted in the thread on Thursday the sixth, and relayed by me to the third party email and received by and responded to (not always so quickly possible) on Saturday the 8th, we've got Sunday the 9th as the sole day for users to respond to the clarified question, assuming these questions will be archived on the end of that day. The user is looking at three options: brief free email access to me no more frequently than once a week, email access to me at almost 6 hrs wages per MB, or 1 hour of censored internet access at 9 days wages per hour. I think it is reasonable to make this user's access easier if it is not an actual huge problem for other users, something again upon which it is impossible for me to comment. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal to increase the archive time to 7 days. Especially since the question volume is going down slightly.

However, I would also like to suggest that if it's costing someone two-weeks' salary to ask the Ref Desk a question, they're probably not going to get their money's worth. 74.113.53.42 (talk) 15:26, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

You misread me somewhat. The user has access to an hour at an internet cafe for the price of 1/3 of a mnths salary. They can also email me at 2 days wages per MB when they have the money. They can also send emails limited to about 600KB for free, but using a friend's access, and only once a week at best, meaning a question refered to me and answered within the week will be useful, but most questions require follow ups, in which case a "archived at the end of the 8th day" setup is all that would really work. Users may have noticed I have posted several questions on this editor's behalf.At this point acess before July will be difficult and infrequent. μηδείς (talk) 22:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• Can we simply institute an "archive at the end of the eighth day" policy? Note the specific user who would benefit from this is active when possible, but won't have regular access until September.

There don't seem to be any real issues. No threads are so long at this point it will proves a difficulty. in fact we are spending much more time blocking trolls. If there's no serious opposition, will someone who can, please make this change? Otherwise, I will gladly post an RfC if necessary. μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

We don't need an RFC, but (IMO) we do need a stronger consensus than has been demonstrated by this thread so far. --Steve Summit (talk) 09:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Completely off topic, you were asked in the old thread "What's a 'botherd'?", to which you replied

Shepherds herd sheep, botherds herd...

Would the answer be boots? SpinningSpark 11:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

A significant number of recent questions on Language desk seem to have been asked by accounts subsequently blocked for sockpuppetry

At least User:YeastyTrains, User:Bg4u, User:KieraCameron2077, User:Wpytgdp... AnonMoos (talk) 01:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

It might be a good time for a friendly admin here to put a short-term semi on the page. I've also put in a request at WP:RFPP. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:06, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

It's been done, but the disease seems to be spreading to other desks. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

It hasn't "spread", they've been doing it unsubtly for a few days across all desks. I figured we were all giving our most boring responses and letting them get quietly blocked, without any of the exciting discussion that they so desperately want to provoke. 86.146.28.105 (talk) 18:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to be a little more specific, in case this wasn't obvious: they want people pointing out that they are a sock. They want people pointing out that they are banned. They want that sort of attention. When you do that, especially on the public-facing pages, you are giving them the exact thing they are trying to achieve. There is a reason we have WP:DENY. 86.146.28.105 (talk) 18:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

The IP below geolocates to Venezuela, which is one of the sources of recent vandalism and socking. Checkusers won't do anything about IP's, so a friendly admin will have to keep zapping them as they come along. But what about the questions? Some of them are obviously fire-starters, while some others are inane but harmless. So what's the solution? Don't give any answers at all? Or semi the pages for a few days? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

They have failed to get any of the arguments they have aimed for: we have generally given boring answers, and engaged politely with each other. We have all been smart enough to spot them. They have been swiftly blocked as they popped up, and no disruption has been caused. So, if you see questions you want to remove, remove them: that is the policy for blocked users. If you want to leave them up, to receive boring, polite answers that potentially build the wiki, do so. No need for hats at all. This is the same as always. 86.146.28.105 (talk) 18:57, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

No rants, no hats, no airs, none left unblocked. And that's a winner! ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:29, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure, but I think Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Honkshreader is related to the recent spate of throwaway accounts trolling the ref desks with inane questions. --Jayron32 02:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Those new accounts pretty much stopped once the Venezuela proxy was blocked. And for what it's worth, the recent ref desk troll was operating from there as well. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Alas, it looks like there's a fresh crop; there are lots of new users asking goofy questions across several desks now. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think we need to do it across all desks for a week or two. IBE (talk) 12:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The trouble (at least on the Misc desk) is that the questions (mostly) aren't inane at all...they are actually kinda interesting. It would have been nice to get the boost in question traffic if they'd been posted by a non-blocked non-sock of some evildoer. It's tough to get a response back from CheckUser in time to spot the sock before an answer pops up on the desk. If we are to WP:AGF, then it's going to be difficult to do much more than answer questions efficiently and without rancor...which is what we should be doing anyway! Jumping on every account name that posts to the desk as their very first post is likely to scare off genuine first-time Misplaced Pages posters...and every one of us was exactly that at some time in our distant past. SteveBaker (talk) 14:26, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The checkuser(s) must know something we don't, and that's why they keep issuing these blocks. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully the admins have put at edit filter in place to block any new account from editing RD, so we won't be seeing any more of these drive-by trolls. 201.243.206.13 (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Very funny, as you're yet another of those Venezuelan troll accounts. However, as a wise admin once pointed out, there are many of us and only one of you. Knock yourself out. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of checkuser, am I the only one who beleives that this poster is a previously banned user engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that got him or her banned? APL (talk) 23:53, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a typical drive-by, but it looks fishy enough. It geolocates to Norway. Was there a Norwegian user banned, some months back? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It certainly sounds like Cuddlyable3. Matt Deres (talk) 00:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Cuddlyable3 was banned for being a grammar Nazi. Was Cuddly based in Norway? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

JustAnotherUploader (talk · contribs) is obviously either Cuddlyable3 or a troll with good knowledge of Cuddlyable3's activities. I've asked for it to be blocked, although any friendly admin who happens to see this could do the honors. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Matt Deres (talk) 17:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2014

This edit request to Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section about the hair curler, add the following text after User:Spinningspark's initial reply, complete with link: "The technical term is conductive polymer." 24.5.122.13 (talk) 09:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC) 24.5.122.13 (talk) 09:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not really what I had in mind. That article is about intrinsically conductive polymers, which, according to that article, are not usually thermoplastic. I was thinking of a regular polymer loaded with carbon or silver. But by all means post the information (along with this reply). SpinningSpark 11:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done. Deor (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protection defeats entire purpose of "reference desk"

I recently stumbled upon the reference desk seeking to pose a legitimate question on a very arcane topic for which I am unable to find an answer within many other forums.

I understand that this area has experienced vandalism recently but in it's present state very few will succeed in using this feature due to the protection. For example, the protection requires that those who pose a question have a minimum number of edits. I have a small handful of edits and could make a few more edits to meet that minimum but that creates a misguided motivation for editing the Wiki. If a questioner wants an answer bad enough the reader will likely be tempted make trivial or sloppy edits to meet the minimum. I was tempted to do just that myself but resisted.

Allow me to point out the stated mission: "The Misplaced Pages reference desk works like a library reference desk. Ask a question here and Misplaced Pages volunteers will try to answer it." As I'm sure you are aware and will agree, the desk works nothing like a library reference desk in its present state.

Rather than just complain I have tried to think of an answer to the current problem. Unfortunately, I lack experience in the Wiki itself and in matters of IT and cyber-vandalism so I cannot be much help except for one suggestion. Just because this reference desk is associated with a Wiki, does the desk itself necessarily need to be a Wiki? Would it help to 'think outside the Wiki?'

I don't imagine I have been much help but I remain motivated because my question festers and I am fairly certain this reference desk is my last hope of finding an answer. At the very least I hope I have presented a new perspective of an outsider with a legitimate question looking in.

Edit: BTW I have read here that users with verified accounts should be free to pose questions but I possess such an account and am still prohibited from posing my question.

Rldioxin (talk) 15:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@Rldioxin: Actually, you do not yet meet the autoconfirmed condition as you only have eight edits. However, I have now manually given you the "confirmed user" permission so you should be able to edit the page. The Ref Desk could be moved outside Misplaced Pages but that would not solve the vandalism problem. Most sites won't let you post at all until you register and confirm your e-mail. SpinningSpark 16:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmed status.

"The Ref Desk could be moved outside Misplaced Pages but that would not solve the vandalism problem."

I was thinking more in terms of filtering or screening questions before they appear on the Wiki. Yes, there is great importance and merit in allowing the encyclopedia to be freely, immediately, and publicly edited but it seems to me that the reference desk is something different, is questions about knowledge rather than the encyclopedic knowledge itself. A fine distinction but distinct nonetheless. Where is it written that a reference desk must operate under the same protocol as the encyclopedia? Again, just wondering if there is a solution outside of the box. Rldioxin (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC) Edit:forgot the sig.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rldioxin (talk • contribs) 17:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. The disruption being caused by Baseball Bugs holding the desks hostage in his one man "war against the trolls" far outweighs whatever good he is trying to accomplish. I don't see any discussion or consensus about this page protection. It's kind of scary how little oversight there is to prevent one person summarily deciding to lock out thousands of innocent editors on a whim 190.206.104.192 (talk) 16:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

You caused it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The blame lies anywhere but with the person who actually requested the unnecessary page protection, ie YOU. Your attitude is the Wiki equivalent of blaming an act of rape on the womans outfit instead of on the rapist. 190.206.104.192 (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right that the blame lies anywhere but with me. In this particular case, you and your endless socks are the assailant, Misplaced Pages and its sincere editors are the victims, and the sincere admins are the policeman trying to rein in the assailant (you). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The block is perfectly appropriate. Bugs has done and can do nothing on his own, and I'd love to see some diffs of how he's ruined the project. Actual researchers are quite likely to have registered acounts. The propblem is just for those poor oppressed trolls who have to keep re-registering after getting blocked. There's been no drop in quality, and the quality control efforts should be commended. μηδείς (talk) 17:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Without intending any offense to Rldioxin, may I ask if the regulars (I'm not sure I count as one any more) have determined whether he's a troll not to be fed, or a reasonable person whose reasonable question may be answered? --Steve Summit (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Yikes. The discord and paranoia around here is scary. Thanks but no thank. I'm out. Rldioxin (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

We can all say whether we think a user is a troll. Action requires admin judgment, and while that's usually too slow in the eyes of some of us it works. What really strikes me is a continued permanent ban on the ref desks, but no ban on registered users here, regardless of autoconfirm. That allows real people to take one simple step, which will eventually bore and tire trolls. And it will mean a heck of a lot less arguing between regulars over troll questions on the ref desks themselves, which is the real problem. In other words shift the trollground from realspace to metaspace. μηδείς (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Unlike some others, I have no desire to go through other users' edit histories before I respond to a question. Rldioxin seems to have asked a very reasonable question here , which I have started to provide refs for. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Based on behavior, I don't think Rldioxin is part of the sock farm. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Many people ask many questions here. Many of them get reasonable answers from reasonable editors. The idea of protecting the reference desk is absurd. Super high profile articles like Obama or 9/11 or whatever are clearly candidates but since the reference desk isn't normally exposed to our mainspace readers (thankfully), there's little-to-no reason to protect it, undermining the entire purpose of it. If people don't like the questions that some people pose, those people don't need to try to provide answers, or could work elsewhere. If a question is so patently absurd that it's obviously disruptive, it should be removed or hatted. If a question has already generated reasonable discussion then it should be allowed to continue. Arbitrary censorship is exactly what Misplaced Pages is not about. Don't forget, this chat board isn't the mainspace. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

To anyone who might wonder... according to the admins, the recent flare-up is the work of a user who is banned from Misplaced Pages altogether. Site-banned users are not allowed to edit anywhere on Misplaced Pages, regardless of any alleged quality of their comments. We had this very same discussion a year or two ago, about a (presumably) different banned user. If the editor is sincere and wants to get un-banned, there are proper channels he can go through. If not, he will continue to sock and IP-hop, and derive endless glee out of watching the ants scramble here. I don't care for socks, but I have to admit it was kind of morbidly funny yesterday when he posted something under one user ID and then reverted it under another ID, thus tricking a sincere user into re-reverting, i.e. re-installing the troll's original entry. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I really do hope the semi-protection is lifted in the next few hours. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree Judith. For what it's worth, in the mainspace this kind of protection is only afforded to the higher profile pages which are likely to have regular readers of encyclopaedic articles stumbling across, not a chat board where, seemingly, anything including humorous and often offensive discussions take place. It's worthwhile that all remember that this is a page which depends on questions and answers and nothing more. It's not an encyclopaedic article which 99.995% of our readers will even randomly stumble upon, let alone go looking for. The hyperbolic reaction to this kind of trolling has done nothing beyond exacerbating the situation, after all, we have WP:RBI for a reason, should any particular post genuinely be considered vandalism, most of which of the latest spate is not, it's just juvenile ramblings (ironically). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The admin who semi-protected all the ref desk pages set it to expire on the 14th, and told me that "if it continues, we'll continue the semi'ing for a while." So if the troll ceases his activities, it can be unprotected. It's up to the troll. It's the troll who's holding the ref desk pages hostage. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaving the fate of the desks in the hands of a known troublemaker hardly seems like a logical course of action. 201.243.96.209 (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) Why are we giving the trolls such power? I thought the idea was to deprive them of power. -- Jack of Oz 20:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

You know the best way, don't you Jack? It's to ignore them. Not pander to them by creating a disruption to this "service" which anyone should be entitled to use. It's like giving in to terrorists. Very weak. Of course an IP can just create a bunch of accounts whenever they like, or grab a new IP by reseting their router, so the idea that this "semi-protection" will somehow "protect" the ref desk is absurd. The best course of action is to take the high ground, revert, block, ignore, and get back to offering the "service" this desk was intended to deliver to all editors, both registered and anonymous IPs. Any other approach is a wilful disruption to the desk and deeply unhelpful to the project. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

201, just above Jack, is of course that same troll. The idea of semi-protection is to choke off the site-banned user, and it's worked to some extent, as the troll has had to try harder. He creates a new user ID, creates a series of bogus updates via his various IP socks, then gets autoconfirmed by having his new ID revert those bogus IP entries. So at least he has to make a greater effort. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I should also point out that it was various admins who first brought this problem to light, a week or two ago, as a bunch of newly-created users were being blocked as being socks of a banned user. Since the time-honored RBI axiom did not work, the next step was semi-protection. I have no authority to either impose or revoke bans or protections. Anyone with any complaints about the handling of the persistent troll can bring those admins into the discussion. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) So what about the 99% of IP users who are not trolls, such as Rldioxon? Why should they, and even some registered users with low usage, suffer for the sins of the 1%? These ways of dealing with the perceived problem always produce the very disruption the trolls are seeking, by way of interminable debates here that never, ever produce a solution that actually works for the greater good. Far better to do nothing at all, i.e. just ignore them (to the extent possible), as TRM says, than this cure that's a lot worse than the condition it's supposedly treating. Can we at least just try that approach for, say, a month and see what happens? -- Jack of Oz 21:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the debates feed the troll. If everyone would strictly enforce the rule that banned editors are not allowed to edit, there would be little or no debate. Meanwhile, we have so far had ONE sincere request here for a question at the ref desk. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Up above I wrote a poorly-conceived comment which I have now retracted.

In answer to Rldioxin (to whom I have since apologized), and in agreement with several other posters here, yes, semi-protection absolutely defeats the purpose of these desks. It should only be used as a last, desparate resort, on rare occasions, and for durations measured in hours. Is the current protection really for a week or so? That's terrible. If that's truly the best we can do, we should shut the desks down and admit defeat.

Someone said something to the effect of, "it's not our fault it's protected, the admins did it." False. The admins did it because someone here called the situation to their attention and requested it. Or because no one has said, "a week is way too long. Let's shorten it." (I'll do that now, if necessary.)

In a post which most of you probably didn't see (because Bugs deleted it, because it may well have been from a troll), the question was asked, "Are the desks in decline?" And the answer is, yes, they clearly are, and part of the problem is, as Rldioxin put it, all the preposterous discord and paranoia.

I'd say more, but I have some work I have to do, and also half of what I'd say would involve mentioning the names of some editors who would then get all huffy and defensive and sidetrack the discussion with their recriminations. But I will say this: the problem is unquestionably us. Trolls, like terrorists, successfully exploit the autoimmune disorders which typically lurk in organisms like this one. The actual damage caused by the troll is comparatively minor; what's far worse is the damage we willfully inflict on ourselves in response. This is not an easy problem to fix, but we are currently not doing a good job of it. --Steve Summit (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that comment was from the troll, and is irrelevant to the discussion. And you're bringing it up again counters the RBI theory. This problem will continue as long as banned editors are enabled. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:25, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

And, to no surprise, the troll has followed Summit to the page of the admin who protected the pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I haven't followed closely enough here to be certain, but I think in general that the choice of protection is very unfortunate and an extreme measure for the reference desk to take. It's indeed a place intended to be an open to ask research questions, which new and unregistered users will undoubtedly have. Some amount of vandalism is inevitable on this project, and even when frustrating, shouldn't result in this kind of draconian measure unless the vandalism is extremely disruptive. Otherwise, we can just monitor, moderate, and delete it. I would recommend unprotecting this page, as even 4 days of SP seems like going too far. Cheers, Ocaasi 00:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No one has been inconvenienced except the troll. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Now, Bugs, that's patently false. --Steve Summit (talk) 06:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Right, if everyone who's commented here wants to keep a lookout, I am happy to unprotect. So folks, I'll do that and everyone can keep a close watch and see how we go, and if any unwanted stuff lasts longer than a minute or two we can rediscuss. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the consensus here that the semi-protection is giving the troll exactly what he wants, the power to block many others from the Ref Desk. In this way it's a Denial Of Service attack, and we are helping him out when we semi-protect. This is not a case where semi-protection should be used. Where should it be used ? Let's say a troll was using a bot to log in under constantly changing IP's and replace the Desks with a picture of his penis. That's a case for semi-protection. This is not. StuRat (talk) 04:54, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I completely agree with StuRat.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 09:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

How to handle this going forward

Semi-protection edit notice points to the wrong place

The semi-protection edit notice still contains a link to the now defunct WP:New contributors' help page. It should surely point to the Teahouse, if anywhere? --ColinFine (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Will this question be rejected?

I want to ask why some people like European Spanish but not Latin American Spanish. Will this question be removed if I ask it? --66.190.99.112 (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

It would be pretty hard to answer. First, who says they do? Second, how likely is there to be some kind of survey of which version of Spanish people "like" or don't? Also, is there really only one dialect of "European" Spanish? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

So is that a yes or a no? 200.84.141.43 (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The question requires neither. --jpgordon 19:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Post your q at WP:RD/L and see what happens. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:10, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Um, no. Please don't. It calls for speculation regarding an assertion backed up by no evidence. It isn't appropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with people asking questions based on false assumptions. How else do we expect people to correct those false assumptions if they don't ask? It is preferable that they tells us where the assumption came from, but it isn't required. I know lots of things that I have no idea where I heard it the first time. Mingmingla (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference between us actually removing a question (reasons include vandalism, obvious trolling etc), and us simply choosing not to answer a question because it falls outside our scope (medical, legal, speculation etc) but leaving it in place. The former happens now and then, as required. The latter hardly ever happens at all; it should happen a lot more, certainly more than outright removal, but there almost always seems to be at least one editor who feels the need to give us the benefit of their opinions.

I can't see any reason why your proposed question would be removed; but equally, I can't see any way it could be answered - with a reference, that is (opinions are always at bargain basement prices, and I'm sure you wouldn't be coming here just to get the unsupported opinions of anonymous jerks on the internet, as I'm sure you have much better things to spend your time on). -- Jack of Oz 20:33, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with people asking questions based on false assumptions. How else do we expect people to correct those false assumptions if they don't ask? It is preferable that they tells us where the assumption came from, but it isn't required. I know lots of things that I have no idea where I heard it the first time. Mingmingla (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Jack and Mingmingla. Question is hard to answer with references, but is otherwise a valid question for here. For example, I'm sure there are some academic studies on accent preferences. These would not explicitly answer the question, but could be useful and interesting for a variety of readers. It is not a problem that the question may have an incorrect assumption. But it could conceivably be removed if interpreted as an invitation to debate or WP:SOAP. The thing about removal here, is it depends a bit on look. Who's patrolling that day, and are they feeling tolerant or restrictive? Such is the inherent difficulty with a community of volunteer editors. If you really want to ask it, I say go for it, but make sure to say that you are interested in references, and perhaps read up on accents a bit so that you know what's already in our related articles. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Think about it this way, folks. If someone asked this question at a real library reference desk, would they expect to get told not to waste their time with such a question, or would they be politely told, "we don't know how to answer that" ? IBE (talk) 06:24, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Is This the Talk Page for all of the parts of the WP:Reference Desk?

Is this the talk page for all of the parts of the WP:Reference Desk? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes. --Jayron32 23:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed; it has more than 500 incoming redirects. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:27, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Every archive page -- that's one per desk per day, going back many years -- has its talk page redirected to this one. --Steve Summit (talk) 19:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

(Well, almost every. Over the past month or so, creation of those redirects has been sporadic, because I was traveling with a different laptop which was missing the redirect page creation script. --Steve Summit (talk) 11:26, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

Disparaging Comments

Comments that disparage or insult another editor may be removed. If they are re-inserted, then they may be re-removed. Do we need to turn semi-protection back on? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Which comment is giving you trouble? --Jayron32 23:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Not one that you can see. It was deleted by another editor, then re-inserted by an IP, then deleted again by an administrator. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

What? The comment about Baseball Bugs having few mainspace contributions? I don't see how that is "disparaging", it's a statement of fact. He wasn't attacked personally, his contributions were simply commented on, which is allowed otherwise Misplaced Pages would cease to function. 186.90.121.214 (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Unless it was done to somehow cast BB in a poor light, as if there's some unwritten rule that one has to earn the right to answer questions here by first making a large number of edits to the encyclopedia. Commenting on BB's other activities would seem to have no other purpose. -- Jack of Oz 23:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

A similar accusation was recently levelled at me. Bugs naturally has my full and unfeigned support on this one: no-one has to earn the right to participate in Refdesk by making a certain proportion of mainspace edits. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:55, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

It's darkly funny when coming from an IP-hopper with no known useful contributions anywhere on Misplaced Pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:03, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it just? I do wonder if this means the troll is a regular who ought to know better, though. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• The two IP addresses doing this have been blocked. If they return, we can try protection for a short time. --Jayron32 23:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

  I have already reprotected. Protection had only just expired and already it is getting out of hand again. SpinningSpark 00:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that many comments on the Ref Desk seem solely aimed at insulting other editors, not at providing an answer to the Q. And I agree that such comments should be removed. But what do we do when they first insult another editor, and then include an answer ? StuRat (talk) 04:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete the useless part. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:01, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem is a lot of us don't really know what a "personal attack" is. And "insulting" is just too broad and vague of a notion. If I tell e.g. Jayron that his answer is useless, I'm being rude, but not making ad hominem attacks. We absolutely have the right to critique and attack eachother's content here, preferably in a civil manner. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

If someone says, "That's incorrect" and provides a correct answer, that's not an attack. If someone says something that equates to "Your words are garbage", that's an attack. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:01, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

If editors offer just opinion or a joke or nothing to actually improve Misplaced Pages, improve the thread, improve the environment, those posts should be called out. It's become all too frequent to see threads deteriorate into in-jokes and childish banter. Little wonder the ref desks are frequented mostly by ref desk editors to chat to one another, and not people seeking help. By the way, we should never "attack eachother's content here" (or lack of it), but it should be encouraged to point out where and when threads have become nothing more than playground antics. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I think if you post a response here that has factual errors, someone should point that out. Maybe "attack" isn't the right word, but surely critique is admissible? (So many of our metaphors for discourse are based on war...) In matters of simple fact, this helps us all arrive at the right answer. I have corrected others here, and others have corrected me. As long as there are references and civility, this should make it a better place for everyone. It is anathema to science at least, to not be allowed to question claims, critique methods, etc. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:58, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, to whom are you posting "No"? It's not clear at all to what or to whom you're objecting. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I was replying to you. Specifically the phrase 'we should never "attack eachother's content here"', which itself seemed to be referencing me. Anyway. I was just trying to explain my claim that it's ok to "attack eachother's content". Perhaps a poor word choice, but I believe it is critical to our mission to allow for respondent's claims to be criticized and challenged by other respondents. (I am a bit of a stickler for indent style WP:INDENT, I think if we all used it correctly we'd have an easier time with discussions . I put in one indent to reply to your non-indent. It would have perhaps been more clear if you had added one indent to your comment, so that I could add two to mine. Usually the custom is that only the top-level question has no indents at all.) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:49, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

wow, just wow

Cruised by the ref desk to ask a question and met your new face for non-members and got say I'm disappointed but not surprised. I always liked the comparison to a library's ref desk but was mistaken in assuming you meant like a public library. Best of luck with your private club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.64.124.142 (talk) 03:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I assume he's run into the semi-protection and wasn't able to ask his Q without registering. This is a good reason not to semi-protect. StuRat (talk) 04:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The troll has declared war on the ref desk. Maybe you can persuade him to stop it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It's ridiculous and truly shows what a boys-only club Misplaced Pages has become. "Anyone can edit, so long as you jump through all these hoops for our amusement first" 112.44.251.44 (talk) 11:02, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Usually pages are protected when a lot of people in a certain class of user (say, non-autoconfirmed, which includes unregistered) are vandalizing the page. Usually the issues are weighed and when protection is chosen, it is because the risk of damage is worse than the unfortunate prevention of legitimate question and edits. - Purplewowies (talk) 18:04, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

As discussed above, the page protection is exactly the result the troll wanted, so the page then becomes ridiculous because it is not accessible to all editors, just the many RD lurkers who spend their entire wiki-lives at the RD and nothing else, chatting like a club room, like some kind of self-perpetuating prophecy. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if a checkuser has taken a look at this person's edits lately. If not, if someone would send me an e-mail with links to a few of them, I will forward it appropriately. Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you should appraise yourself of the situation before offering such "assistance". The editor being discussed uses various IP addresses, mainly based in Venezuela. What would your check user offer accomplish here? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Your best bet might be to check Carllica4 (talk · contribs). That ID was created four years ago and then sat idle until today, when the troll did the same thing the others have recently: Latched on to random ID's around the world (by some obscure trick), not just Venezuela; made trivial edits to random articles; then used the old registered ID Carllica4 to revert those edits, thus attaining autoconfirmation. Maybe a checkuser can figure out who that editor Carllica4 really is, and see if anything can be done to stifle his war against the ref desks. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:59, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Yesterday, 190.73.3.113 (talk · contribs), one of those Venezuelan IP's, went berserk, slashing entire ref desk pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

One darkly amusing incident happened on Sunday, where Lastwine123 (talk · contribs) and Minky543 (talk · contribs) went through that same autoconfirm process I mentioned earlier. Lastwine123 created the entries, and then Minky543 deleted them, thus tricking StuRat into restoring them. Those are a couple of users you could look into. Both indef'd now, of course. Those user ID's were created in 2008 and 2010 respectively, so that's some serious advance planning by the troll. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:14, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Overone2 (talk · contribs) and TalipTaste (talk · contribs) are a couple of other recent ones using the same autoconfirmation M.O. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:18, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the other actions taken, perhaps it would be a good idea to make the templates that appear during semi-protection more friendly? What happens right now for an unregistered user is this:

1. You see the normal reference desk header on the subpage (eg Humanities or Science), with the welcome and tips on how to get a question answered. You click on "Ready? Ask a new question!" and...

2. You get taken to a page titled "Permission error", followed by a large padlock and a notice that the page can only be edited by "established registered users". Then there is a long wall of text with technical jargon about semiprotection, vandalism, a protection log, requested moves, talk pages, etc. At the bottom is a bright blue button named "Submit an edit request" which is the next likely move for the visitor still trying to ask their question.

3. Next you see a page titled "Editing Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk (new section)". There are TWO jargon-filled boxes at the top full of complicated instructions about articles, reliable sources, sandboxes, etc. You are also told this page is not for asking for help (which is confusing considering how you got here), and right before the typing box there is a big yellow banner saying "Please do not ask knowledge questions on this page. This talk page is where the reference desk itself is discussed. To choose an appropriate reference desk to visit, click here."

I can understand how the frustrated person 148.64.124.142 trying to ask a question feels they are getting the runaround. Is there any way to remove these standard templates and use ones directly appropriate to the reference desk? For example, if the desk page is protected, could the "Ready? Ask a new question!" button lead directly to the page for submitting an edit request without the intermediate "Permission error" page? And could the templates on that page be simplified to something much more friendly and simple such as "Type your question here. A volunteer will transfer it to the main reference desk later today."? 184.147.135.33 (talk) 21:17, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Keep in mind that protection of the ref desks is pretty unusual. It's been triggered by a persistent troll whose assault on the ref desks has accelerated recently. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Better protection on RD templates

Could Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/header/nav be locked down better? Our troll has started editing it. Any other templates used here that aren't changed often should probably be protected too. Katie R (talk) 12:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

They've edited Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/header too, although they seem to have reverted the changes. Katie R (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

For oldies like me surprised that these templates aren't already fully protected (since I thought they were all locked down before the Avril troll reformed), it seems they were unprotected at the end of May last year. (To be clear, this is intended as a comment, not a criticism. They do seem to have lasted over a year and actually there may have been a discussion on it before I seem to have vague recollections of something.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

If the admins and/or checkusers were sufficiently interested, they might look into that reincarnated troll (last edited four years ago) and maybe finally put a stop to its war on the ref desk. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:58, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2014

This edit request to Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add to the Humanities desk, section "children's books" Many thanks to everyone for the helpful answers. (same person, IP just changed after a power out) 184.147.135.33 (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC) 184.147.135.33 (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Done Regards, Older and ... well older (talk) 00:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! 184.147.135.33 (talk) 02:10, 14 June 2014 (UTC)