Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:57, 22 July 2014

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6

Communication w. Anthonyhcole

Colton, it seems to me the key (but not only) issue here is the injustice of the original block. There is a lot of sympathy out there for you in that regard, even from editors who think you should be sanctioned for your annoying transparent post-block evasion.

If the RfC concludes clearly that the original block was unsound, will you commit to staying away for a given period (maybe not 6 months) to demonstrate to the skeptical an ability and willingness to respect our norms? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that would help, but I recognize that you're trying to brainstorm a solution, so let me mull it over and get back to you later. Colton Cosmic (talk) 11:44, 17 February 2014 (UTC) PS: I saw your changes to your "outside view." I think you successfully smoothed your tone without backing off your positions.

Please do mull it over. Admins here are in an impossible position due to our anonymous anyone-can-edit policy. When a ban-/block-/sanction-avoiding editor socks, unless they're especially stupid about it, admins have only behavioural evidence to go on. Your behaviour - edit-warring in, tangentally, the mixed martial arts area which is full of appalling banned time-wasting troublemakers; giving lip to admins on noticeboards; proposing a problematical (I'll explain why later) change to WP:3RR and a too-subtle and apparently-but-not stupid change to WP:CLEANSTART, dressing down Nomo like an old adversary, proposing the (superficially - I realise your argument is worthy of considering) absurd removal of an article subject's identity - matches the behaviour of many ban-avoiders whose identities are later technically confirmed.

Reasonable people think your proposed removal of the superhero's identity was preposterous, your treatment of Nomo was suspicious, your correcting of admin behaviour at ANI was impertinent, and your policy proposals were stupid and dangerous and, at this stage, changing their minds on your value to the project is unlikely to happen - because they're too busy and too jacked off with you for your annoying transparent block-avoiding to bother. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Blargh. Is this the same Anthonyhcole who was in danger of becoming my best Misplaced Pages friend until now? ;) There's too much there to disagree with right now, I generally stand by those edits except where admittedly I was uncivil on a *scarce* number of occasions. To get just the first one though. Phoenix Jones is a superhero, not a professional MMA competitor. His real-life identity is a "non-notable" (referring to policy, not the man) *regional* MMA hobbyist, of which there are thousands throughout the USA, as a rule not warranting Misplaced Pages coverage. As for giving admins lip, that should not be a blockable offense. Colton Cosmic (talk) 15:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I know that. I'm describing how it looks. And, though giving lip to admins isn't technically a blockable offense, it's not going to inspire trust or motivate them to help you. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even sure I gave any administrators lip. Way back when, I criticized some for failure to warn, and Drmies responded sarcastically, and I came back mildly to that. That actually may have been Timotheus' unstated irritation, it was also in his diff. Rather than that horror of all verbal horrors I perpetrated on the kind and noble Nomoskedasticity. When Mastcell dropped by out of nowhere to interrogate me about my prior account, I had no idea who that was or if he or she was an administrator. So I replied "who wants to know" meaning "explain yourself" and now Lukeno94 says I was "abusive" to him or her. Am I giving Bwilkins/EatsShootsAndLeaves/?/DangerousPanda "lip" by pointing out he said to some poor hurting editor "may you rot in the hell that is eternal block?" People used to tell former U.S. President Harry Truman "give 'em hell, Harry," and he replied "I just told the truth, and they think it's hell." Anyhow I mulled over your idea to voluntarily not edit to "show respect for norms." I appreciate the thought but you can't make deals like that because you're not an administrator. You can't sell that prospect. An administrator could on the other hand take ownership of it, but it'd have to be better than some lukewarm "I would raise your case for discussion at WP:AN/ANI." Yeah, right, tell me another knee-slapping hoot-and-howler. It's not likely at all really, but as a matter of brainstorming: if my block for socking were overturned (i.e. I am unblocked with a statement that the original block was invalid) I would agree to immediately report myself at WP:AN/ANI for my block evasion, call for a show of hands of blocking me 0, 90, or 180 days (for block evasion) and abide the majority or plurality result. Funny huh? But yeah I'd do that. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

That's giving lip to admins. Don't worry. I do it all the time. It's only a problem as part of the composite, the evidence that you are some banned trouble-maker.

User:Drmies and User:MastCell are two of the people I most respect and admire. Should you ever settle down to a quiet life of editing and collaborating here, you'll find their clue and good humour a tonic. Having read through all of your interactions before the block I can see a sad kind of inevitability about it all. Given the confluence of factors at that time, they were both well-justified in their skepticism, and you were entitled to your responses.

That inevitability extends to the whole car wreck, given the norms here.

I fully understand your response. Being characterised as deceitful and blocked is unpleasant. This was just me thinking out loud. Reflecting. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you Triptych? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:05, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I've got nothing to say about any off-Misplaced Pages account, not "yes," not "no," not "maybe," and in my opinion you shouldn't even be asking. Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:17, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: You say you respect Drmies and Mastcell. Drmies figured in my block, looking back I don't think Timotheus was quarreling so much with my criticism of Nomo. as with my comeback to Drmies who sarcastically portrayed me as a "masked fighter of admin abuse." Now some administrator who's idly and randomly vandalizing with his "rev-delete" button deleted that exchange where Worm posted it at his "Outside view" but I have it here:

"Darn! A contributor who believes admins ought to warn, and isn't scared to say it in their frontyard! I figure odds are about two in seven that he's an admin. I've read virtually nothing of whatever the heck the quarrel was about, but I saw Youreallycan conscientiously report himself and figure he ought to be unblocked on that basis if no other. Colton Cosmic (talk) 22:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC) PS: Who's administering the admins?"

"Good thing we have you, a masked fighter of admin abuse. Drmies (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)"

"Hey Drmies , I actually like a sarcastic comment like that because it allows me to know you better. I briefly looked at your user page and I didn't see your face either. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)"

"Try the user pages of my previous accounts. Drmies (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)"

Now what's going on here? Am I sassing admins? No. Does Drmies get snotty and sarcastic? Yes. And what is Drmies saying at the last? I *thought* that he was favorably highlighting his straightforwardness by saying he only had one account (because there were no signs of other accounts at his userpage). BUT I later found that Drmies does indeed have at least one previous account. He doesn't disclose or confirm it that I've seen. There was no way for me to know about it when he was making his snotty remark. So I still wonder if he intentionally mislead me.

As for Mastcell, whom you respect, he or she scoured my edits when I was blocked and furnished the most hideous distortion and utter prosecutorial twisting of my edits. I mean if I ever made a positive one, it didn't exist, and if I ever stepped on someone's toe, he or portrayed me as amputating his or her leg at mid-thigh. It was literally grotesque and I had *no idea* who Mastcell even was, and I'm getting sandbagged out-of-the-blue right when I'm reacting to my shock block. At a later point Mastcell furnished this entire evidence-free suspicion-based and stupid theory that I was the sock of some editor who also thought four edits with the fourth just outside 24 hours should not count as WP:3RR violation. Mastcell said that I and whoever it was were "obsessed" with the point. I think I commented and responded on the point a few times on a single day. It was just bull, I never heard of the guy he said I am. He manufactures this whole incoherent theory and says something like "I have no hard evidence but people trust my experience and gut feeling." It was hilarious if he wasn't successfully contributing to the WP:AN/ANI mob attack on me.

So sorry, I'm still sort of undecided on Drmies, though he seemed to mislead me, but nothing I've seen from Mastcell shows an administrator worthy of my respect, quite the opposite. Colton Cosmic (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

All they have to go on - absent solid technical CU evidence or an admission - is circumstantial impressions and gut. They make mistakes. In this case, having read most of the lead-up to the block, as I said above, there was an inevitability about the thing.

It's an art. I don't know Timotheus Canens from a bar of soap, so I don't know if he's deft or a klutz, but in this instance it was a reasonable assumption that you're a returning trouble-maker. He could have talked a bit with you first, and I hope he's learned from the experience. But it was the kind of misjudgment in a difficult art that can and should be forgiven, unless he does it all the time - and I've not seen that case made.

It's my opinion that you should drop this now, create a new account and carry on writing content for a while. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Let me clear you up on it then: he's very deft. It was never any "reasonable assumption" that I was a "returning troublemaker." Timotheus Canens was irritated and pushed his block button. Anyone who reviewed my edits would see a constructive editor. The refusal to communicate is just the irrevocable proof of abuse. He did it to ArkRe and no doubt many others. I can't create a new account; it's against policy. Colton Cosmic (talk) 13:21, 22 February 2014 (UTC) PS: What Mastcell and like administrators do is not "an art." It's just bull made up as they go along, and powered by idle, ignorant suspicion and absence accountability.

Invitation to Nil Einne, Blueboar, Joseph Laferriere, and John

@Nil Einne, Blueboar, Joseph Laferriere, and John: would you have a look at my (request for comment/user) RFC/U () and consider voicing an opinion? It's a blocking case. It's a long read but if you stick to the actual RFC/U and turn your eyes away from all the commentary, you can probably come away with an informed opinion in 15 minutes. If you're not interested, then excuse the ping please, I won't do so again.

I haven't interacted with any of you that I know of, except John. Nil Einne, I noticed you comment on a wikihounding case. Blueboar, you are interested in masons, I know a guy who is a knight templar, which I think is some sort of mason. Joseph LaFerriere, you edited swamp white oak, a tree I'm also interested in. And John, when last we spoke you were trying to solve my conundrum, but you were (rightfully) engaged in some particular real-life matters that consumed your time; I got impatient; and we agreed that I'd go on to the next administrator. Maybe you can help now.

The idea of an RFC/U is that you read it, then either cast your own "outside view" in the large section designated "Views" or just endorse the view of any other that you agree with. I would prefer you form your own viewpoint, because I feel that the views posted there early are weighted to the habitual blockers and block arguers (the RFC/U is about my block) and those who quickly got there because they watchedlisted my talkpage long ago, and decided against me long ago. (There are also some others that came fresh to the case, and I'm faring better with them.) You can evaluate the RFC however you want but consider the way I and GB_fan framed it (), which is a 1-2-3 assessment. Thanks for reading Colton Cosmic (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanx for the invitation. I skimmed over the page you suggested, and must say I cannot judge without more detailed information about what this person did. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, realizing that honest, well-intentioned people can make mistakes from ignorance and inexperience rather than from malice. As for my editing the swamp oak, I have been editing all sorts of things, including plants I've never heard of but can find information about from on-line sources such as Tropicos and The Plant List. Lots of fun, better than watching tv in the evenings. As for the Knights Templar, fascinating group. They were knights participating in the Crusades, but also ordained as monks. They had a decree from the Vatican saying that they were above the law in every country in Christiandom. Extremely wealthy, powerful, and ultimately dangerous bunch of characters. There is nothing so perilous as a well-trained soldier with the best weapons around, plus a pocket full of gold, convinced he is on a mission from God to kill the infidels.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 15:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Removal of UserTalkPage Access. Thank you. DP 14:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, to any administrator taking this seriously, the nutshell at WP:CANVASSING says "This page in a nutshell: When notifying other editors of discussions, keep the number of notifications small, keep the message text neutral, and don't preselect recipients according to their established opinions." My use of the ping function is consistent with that.

Secondly, I (and Writkeeper) have asked the above administrator to stay off my talkpage. While a neutral notification like that is A-okay, I don't want my response here to signify to him that he can come here and debate the matter with me now. Colton Cosmic (talk) 15:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I should be allowed to participate in the RFC/U

I know I'm its subject and there's some bruising commentary in the "outside views" that I'm prepared to go along with, but it's getting pretty ridiculous at the talkpage . Critics who opined against me a week ago have confiscated it for their second home and are settling in for the long haul. Do I risk a WP:CIV infringement by saying "you spoke your piece, but shouldn't you move along by now, and by the way: get a life?"

So there's that, but even more pertinently, I am familiar enough with my own case to answer some of those questions that come up and neutrally correct with diffs some of the factual misunderstandings. It would make for a more illuminating RFC/U and it is the general conception of RFC/Us that the editor in question is able to participate in the talkpage discussion. So I reiterate my request that some administrator unblock me sufficiently to comment on the talkpage. If you just generally unblock me, I promise to only comment at the talkpage and further commit to an heightened civility expectation. 10:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The RFC/U on you is quite a strange beast. Unlike a usual RFC/U, which are about that subject's behaviour and practices on WP, this one is about an aspect of a case against a user, in this case you, which isn't something I've usually seen on an RFC/U. That being said, unblocking you to participate in an RFC/U that involves you would require a community review. Should you wish such a review, I could open up an entry on WP:AN to see whether a consensus can be obtained. Personally, it seems silly not to temporarily unblock you for this. In the past, indef'd users have been unblocked to participate in ANI's about them and then either remain blocked or are reblocked depending on consensus. Blackmane (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

@Blackmane: There is not any "community review" needed to merely unblock me to participate in my RFC/U, in fact there is no community review needed to unblock me period. WP:UNBLOCK governs it. Any administrator is within his or her authority to unblock me at any time. Nihonjoe did so on extensive research last time, but was faulted on the basis that he didn't talk it up enough beforehand. Don't raise it at WP:AN/ANI, but you can call the matter to the attention of your favorite admin if you like, and tell him or her what I said: I promise not to edit elsewhere except the RFC/U talkpage. Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC) PS: I see in your "Outside view" where you believe, yes I was wrongly blocked, but then you fault me for block evasion. I tell you I really had no choice in the matter if I ever hoped to edit Misplaced Pages again. The WP:BASC email appeal process is a complete sham, it rejects literally 92 percent of appeals with explanation-free form responses. UTRS is a privacy-invasive computer fingerprinting scheme, with any number of anonymous administrators (and "administrative participants" getting access to that data. And so on and so on. I hope you change that part of your view Blackmane, before someone agrees with it and sort of locks it in. I am willing to talk that over with you more if you don't agree my position.

I know that your TP access has now been revoked, but I will leave a post here as I am sure you will see it. Your initial block, though somewhat troublesome to me, was ultimately upheld by a number of administrators. It graduated to the realm whereby no admin would willingly unblock you without significant community support. Although not in the policy, this is how blocks such as yours have come to be handled (of course any admin who reads this is free to correct me).

I find fault in your initial block as it was not clear to me why you were blocked. However, you had a clear choice in your subsequent actions (I'd read through all the unblock requests and replies by various admins). These were repeatedly laid out to you by a number of admins, including an Arbcom member who assured you that the privacy of your previous account would be maintained. My view that I posted in the RFC/U is unchanged in this regard. Blackmane (talk) 17:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm probably running a risk of an admonishment from an admin for continuing this discussion, but oh well. To the matter at hand, I said "...I could..." do so, not I would do so, should you request it. However you responded by effectively demanding that I seek out an admin and request that they unblock you. This I will not do as that is effectively a 3rd party unblock request, which will be denied. This I can guarantee. As I said, should you request it, I could raise a, neutrally worded, question on AN but having done so, I will not advocate for either blocking nor unblocking.

As for Lukeno's intervention on my talk page, that is within the remit of reverting block evasion. His reversion only means I have to read my talk page history, which is of minimal inconvenience to me. Blackmane (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Or, indeed, me. Do you know something I don't? My name is David Craven and I'm known as Dave. Where you get the idea that I'm being duplicitous is beyond me. I've seen many incorrect facts about me off-wiki, but to the best of my knowledge, I've never lied about myself. What I offered was to look at your past account, maintain confidentiality, confirm your statements, vouch for the account if I saw no other issues and even consider unblocking. That's all I can offer. Worm(talk) 14:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

As it stands, you can see that there is, as yet, no consensus to unblock you to participate in the RFC/U. However, both DangerousPanda and Technical13 have brought up a usable solution. It is possible for a subpage of your user page or talk page to be created and all of your posts to that page can be transcluded onto a section in the RFC/U. See mw:W:LST. If consensus is that you remain blocked, you can nonetheless request that this subpage transclusion be performed. Blackmane (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Request to Four about my RFC/U

Dear @Shii, OhanaUnited, Cindamuse, and Kathryn NicDhàna: would you mind having a look and commenting at my Request for Comment/User (RFC/U). You'll find it here: . It's a long read but if you stick to RFC/U itself you can get through it in about 15 minutes.

I was accused of and permanently blocked for socking. The purpose (well, as *I* see it) of the RFC/U is to furnish the community discussion basis that several people at WP:AN/ANI said is prerequisite to an administrator unblocking me. I selected you four to invite to review the RFC/U because your initials together spell S.O.C.K. I checked then to make sure you were recently active.

Well, my defense to the socking charge as you'll find if you read the RFC/U is that I never did it. My blocker stayed curiously silent, people figured he had "secret evidence" and the avalanche just started rolling from there. I block evaded via raw IP, always signing my username, mainly to seek unblock. I really believed (and believe) I had no other genuine choice than that to ever get unblocked. Anyhow, if you have any questions, let me know here at my talkpage, because I currently can't edit at the RFC/U or anywhere else. Colton Cosmic (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

@Shii, OhanaUnited, Cindamuse, and Kathryn NicDhàna: <tap> <tap> Is this thing on? 12:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Due to chronic abuse of the ping mechanism in an effort to canvass, Colton's talk page access has been revoked.—Kww(talk) 13:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:AN Discussion notification

As you are aware, there is a discussion concerning your block at . Your talk page access has been restored so you can post comments to be added to the discussion thread. Talk page access is liable to be rescinded if repeats of past behaviour, such as misuse of the ping mechanism occur again in future. Nick (talk) 00:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Nick, thanks for the notification and for raising, in the best way we could figure out, this matter that means so much to me. I'll try not to let you down by being extra-careful in adherence to policy. To any administrator that happens by here, if you are willing to stick your neck out too by unblocking me generally to defend myself for the duration the discussion, I promise to edit nowhere but there and here, and further promise to doubly observe WP:CIV civility standards. Colton Cosmic (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

So you can post your messages here and they can be transcribed with little fuss, right? Tiderolls 07:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Colton, I asked this at AN, but you've always been honest about such things before, so I might just ask here. When was the last time you evaded your block? (I expect to ask for an unblock) Worm(talk) 07:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll answer both at once. No right-minded person would think it fair and no fair-minded person would think it right to deny me the ability to directly defend myself in any ban discussion concerning me. Keeping me in a box here, and saying I can just type stuff for a good samaritan to copy over is demeaning to both and doesn't work at all. Already, multiple erroneous statements are being said there, for example Fluffernutter's assertions that A) I ever appealed to her on IRC (I didn't), B) I haven't disclosed my prior account to anyone (I did), and C) I ever voiced or implied concerns about my personal safety (I didn't).

Therefore I ask again for a volunteer administrator willing to go out on a limb on my promise to edit only here and at the discussion, and to doubly observe WP:CIV civility standards, to unlock me generally for the duration of the discussion. For purpose of defending myself. It would certainly make for a more enlightening and yes fairer discussion.

Worm, I do not recall when last I block evaded. 45 or 60 days, maybe more. There have been multiple month periods, but none reaching six, in the two plus years I've been blocked in which I didn't block evade. Colton Cosmic (talk) 08:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Colton. As for your other point - it'd be trivial to set up a transclusion using <noinclude>tags so that a section of your talk page appears on AN - I'm sure that's been done in the past. I'll do so now, on the understanding that if there are objections it can be easily reverted. Worm(talk) 09:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Colton Cosmic's responses

@Fluffernutter: is incorrect that A) I ever appealed to her on IRC (I didn't), B) I haven't disclosed my prior account to anyone (I did), and C) I ever voiced or implied concerns about my personal safety (I didn't). @Dennis Brown:is incorrect that I'm banned, and I'm surprised to hear him make this assertion because I thought I recalled he said that editors shouldn't be banned as a result of discussions in which the participants didn't know they were voting for a ban. @Beyond My Ken: says he well remembers my Arbcom discussion but I don't understand how he was privy to that because it took place on its confidential mailing list. Colton Cosmic (talk) 09:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It's starting pretty poorly for me, but I'd say to anyone who actually comes fresh to my case, to not treat it like a standard WP:AN/ANI "vote him or her off the island" popularity contest. Think instead about things like whether I actually did what I was originally blocked for, if I really had any alternative besides clearly-disclosed block evasion, and also whether these ban discussions are truly representative of the community and fair to their subjects. Or if something needs to be changed and handled differently. Colton Cosmic (talk) 10:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

@Od Mishehu, Yamla, Blackmane, and Robert McClenon: and others, in my seven or eight years of editing, I have never socked Misplaced Pages. After being wrongfully blocked and then pushed around while trying to make the appeals system work, I resorted to clearly-disclosed IP block evasion. Evasion is governed by its own policy, WP:EVADE. Everybody knows that to sock requires a deceptive element. One pretends to be someone else to cause the appearance of more support for a viewpoint than actually exists, or to work mischief for humor, or for malicious purposes. I never did that at all. So demands for me to stop socking for a year have already been met at least seven times over. @Atlan:, I don't agree with that other stuff you said however yes, it is my position that these WP:AN/ANI ban discussions are not representative of the community. The community, and Lila Tretikov also says this, is comprised of *all* the editors and administrators. What we have at WP:AN/ANI is, I find, heavily weighted toward block enthusiasts. But that is not to imply that I'll give it no weight if this discussion finishes at the same proportions as it has started. Colton Cosmic (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)