Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:02, 25 July 2014

Template:Vital article

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Medicine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Citizendium Porting (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Citizendium Porting, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Citizendium PortingWikipedia:WikiProject Citizendium PortingTemplate:WikiProject Citizendium PortingCitizendium Porting

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40

This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Removal of sources

@Smk65536:, you reasoned your recent removal of sources by stating that:

the Meeker-Haldeman source links to the book "Chiropractic. History and Evolution of a New Profession", which is authored by a chiropractic, the neutrality of information here is questionable

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that a chiropractic author isn't a reliable source on chiropractic? How about an economist then, is an economist a reliable source on economics? Or a physician on medicine? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

A long time chiropractor is definitely a reliable source on chiropractic, but the wikipedia summary is about chiropractic in a broader professional context by comparing alternative medicine to other science-based medicines. Therefore I'm doubting the neutrality of this. Smk65536 (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The edit summary appears to be misleading. This text was from this source, Ann Intern Med. 2002 Feb 5;136(3):216-27.. It was also removed from the lede, no discussion. Neuraxis (talk) 17:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Considering that there was no discussion for the removal in the lede, neither any clear WP policy why it was removed but only personal speculation, I think the source is better to be restored. If there is a clear WP policy though, please let me know. Perhaps you could find a secondary source that is doubting the very same source you removed? Then it would be alright. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I have restored that content. It's good enough. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:18, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The policy is clearly WP:NPOV, the source is also a secondary source, the book is instead a primary source, the edit summary summarizes the edit well and attempts to be clear as possible. The secondary source also considers the book's view to be a point of view, but the wikipedia summary appears to state it as fact. Smk65536 (talk) 09:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Jayaguru-Shishya (talk), you have to cite references for every sentence you plan to add to any article of wikipedia and avoid removing sentences with references. This article is written as per the policies of wikipedia which is that all complementary and alternative medicine articles should be written, not from the perspective of its advocates/practitioners, but from the perspective of 'researchers and scientists'. If you want to complain about wikipedia's policies, please do what LeadSongDog mentioned on the Talk:Homeopathy page which I'm linking to here (and tell me also about it, on my discussion/talk page). I'm probably the only sympathiser you'll find here, so please follow my advice or else you will get blocked, banned or topic banned (from this article).—Khabboos (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Chiropractic: Is it Nature, Medicine or Religion?

Here's a very interesting article from a Professor of Religious Studies:

• Chiropractic: Is it Nature, Medicine or Religion?, Candy Gunther Brown, Ph.D., The Huffington Post 07/07/2014

This article contains quotes and POV about chiropractic which are usable for the chiropractic articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it interesting that chiropractic has such widespread popularity in treating patients suffering from a variety of ailments, most principally neuromusculoskeletal disorders. I consider the writings of 19th century individuals who attempted to explain the workings of the human body based on the limited knowledge of the day, although interesting, not very relevant to the reality of today. Chiropractic is not stagnant, limited to the dogmatic beliefs of the past, but a modern and dynamic health profession. Dr. Gunther-Brown's focus on the metaphysical beliefs of these chiropractic pioneers and fringe revivalists fits with her focus of interest and educational which is religion. It is my opinion that readers of WP would be more interested in what chiropractic actually is, as currently practiced as a licensed health care profession. I find this constant focus on how chiropractic pioneers tried to differentiate their focus from the equally unexplainable medical practices of the 19th and early 20th centuries tedious, dated and irrelevant to what I believe readers of WP would like to know about chiropractic. Kshilts (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

While it would be nice if this was of purely historical interest, there is still enough relevance that it is still worth noting. We document what RS say. Until the profession does something about cleaning up the pseudoscientific practices, and publicly distances itself from the beliefs which allow them, the profession will have to live with the disdain of mainstream medicine and science. I know that's not fair to sensible and science based chiropractors, but that's life. Change must come from inside the profession, and so far it has resisted change (the NACM gave up atttempts at reform) and tried to do some of it without anyone noticing, but that won't work. It really needs to create a clean slate. Until then, writers like Dr. Brown are going to keep writing about the problems in the profession, and Misplaced Pages will use those RS in articles here. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I consider the writings of 19th century individuals who attempted to explain the workings of the human body based on the limited knowledge of the day, although interesting, not very relevant to the reality of today. Chiropractic is not stagnant, limited to the dogmatic beliefs of the past, but a modern and dynamic health profession. It is my opinion that readers of WP would be more interested in what chiropractic actually is, as currently practiced as a licensed health care profession. I find this constant focus on how chiropractic pioneers tried to differentiate their focus from the equally unexplainable medical practices of the 19th and early 20th centuries tedious, dated and irrelevant to what I believe readers of WP would like to know about chiropractic. -Kshilts (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of WP:WEIGHT. Just like we don't put much emphasis in the science -article on how scientists used to believe in things like aether or such, we shouldn't put too much weight on the very early believes of chiropractic that obviously have changed to this day. Sure there might be some who still hold on to these believes, just like there are people ho still believe that the world is flat (The Flat Earth Society) or believe that the world was created in 6 days. We should be really careful with respect to giving too much weight on such views.

Mr. Rangifer,,,

I appreciate your perspective and interest on this unusual topic. I believe the chiropractic profession does not need a wholesale cleansing of the past. The past is what it was. It's impossible to go back and create a clean slate. From my perspective, the enabling philosophy of chiropractic describes how its pioneers wanted to establish something distinctly different from the prevailing medical practices of late 1800's, and explained their innovate constructs around the burgeoning science (and miracle) of the time, which was electricity. The enabling metaphysical concepts to chiropractic are well documented in WP. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the chiropractic profession's detractors refuse to appreciate chiropractic, as CURRENTLY practiced, as a regulated healthcare profession integrated into our modern health care system. Dr. Gunther-Brown's observation about a chiropractor who wraps his/her patient's needs within a holistic realm is somehow akin to a religious sermon sounds a bit silly. Chiropractic has no deity. The body's ability to heal is recognized across all medical disciplines. I'm sorry, I don't see the relevance. I also do not think the "pseudoscience" moniker that a few ardent individuals seem bent on attaching to the "chiropractic" WP page is either appropriate or accurate. Call chiropractic's beginnings what they were but let's not paint over the present using the same dismissive attitudes that apparently forged these beginnings but also perpetrates an inaccurate view of reality relative to this legitimate profession. Kshilts (talk) 21:43, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Problem with WP:WEIGHT?

In a recent edit by QuackGuru, a blog post - marketed as a survey - was used as a source for the following addition: "A 2003 profession-wide survey found "most chiropractors (whether "straights" or "mixers") still hold views of Innate and of the cause and cure of disease (not just back pain) consistent with those of the Palmers." Does a blog really qualify as an adequate source?

Besides, hasn't this topic already been discussed earlier, like in these discussions for example: ? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers and Happy Summer! ;] Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you get the idea of a "blog". It's an article by an expert, referring to a published survey performed by experts who are chiropractors (!), which is now in a book. The article is a reliable secondary source, and we should just add a ref to the survey itself. That should tighten that content up quite nicely. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

It turns out we have been using a ref to that survey for a long time! -- Brangifer (talk) 01:43, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

This one: Gunther Brown, Candy (July 7, 2014). "Chiropractic: Is it Nature, Medicine or Religion?". The Huffington Post. Seems like a Huffington Post's blog to me. Just like we don't qualify Paul Krugman's blog on the New York Times where he calls the European Union commissars as cockroaches as a source on economics articles, we shouldn't use anybody's blog as a source on this one. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all, The Huffington Post is not a blog, but it hosts certain blogs by notable journalists and editors, whose blogs are the equivalent of a newspaper column, and they have always been considered RS for certain purposes here.

There was a time, very long ago, when blogs were a new form of keeping an online personal diary, that they were pretty much totally banned as sources here. Misplaced Pages's position has changed quite a bit, but many editors aren't aware of that. Blogs are now used as websites by journalists, politicians, and even some businesses, and in some cases as their sole website. Only the diary type of blog by unknown people are now deprecated here. Therefore we now judge them by their publisher and their author. If the publisher is well-known (like a newspaper or magazine) and the author is an expert, we accept the article as a RS. That's the case here. In fact, this expert is merely summing up a chapter in her book, which is certainly a RS. She is an expert on her subject, just as Paul Krugman is a world renowned expert and Nobel Prize winner. If he wrote something on a piece of toilet paper, used it and flushed it, we'd rescue it and still consider it a RS for his opinion! -- Brangifer (talk) 05:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The Huffington Post is not a blog, well noticed! ;D However, there is a blog section in The Huffington Post. Anyway, blogs are by no means a reliable source as they do not undergo any sort of peer-review process. A blog post by a world-class scientist like Paul Krugman can be very pleasant to read but it is not - and is not meant to - make any scientific claims. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for every blog hosted at The Huffington Post (THP), but I suspect most are what we would call a "column" used by a noted contributor. Their use would have to be considered on an individual basis, but a blanket refusal to use any of them because of the word "blog" is wrong. I don't think that THF is a blog hosting service in the same sense as Blogger (service), where anyone can have a blog.

Krugman is not a scientist, and we would likely not use him for scientific claims of the type governed by MEDRS. As a notable person, we might use his statements as documentation for his opinion on many types of articles, including ones not directly related to economics. Again, judging on an individual basis. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

No, not really. Blogs are non-scientific sources and are not meant to make any scientific claims. Opinions are opinions, scientific claims are scientific claims. That's why we have both blogs and peer-reviewed articles. ^^

Ps. Economics is a science, and economics scholars are scientists. Not just natural scientists are scientists ;) ! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a bit off-topic, but, Krugman is a a politician, although he may have been a scientist at one point. Nonetheless, his comments may be used if usable under WP:SPS. This applies whether the publication is in a blog, a letter, or a column, or in any form other than that of an edited publication. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Controversial changes

I shorted the NBCE Part-VI exam information as suggested. Kshilts (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

This change added too much detail to the WP:SUMMARY section and moved text to the wrong section. QuackGuru (talk) 04:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

This change was way more than a grammar issue. Now the entire section was redone. Again, the section should be a summary and not a very lengthy section. QuackGuru (talk) 18:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The section is too long and unsourced claims were recently added. The section should be a WP:SUMMARY without unsourced text. QuackGuru (talk) 06:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

"The NBCE Part-IV examination is a comprehensive practical exam that assesses case history, orthopedic & neurological testing, clinical diagnosis, radiography & imaging interpretation, manual techniques and case management. The Part-VI exam has generally replaced individual state examinations. Jurisdictions still administer a jurisprudence examination to test a candidate's knowledge of the statutes and regulations that govern chiropractic practice within its particular jurisdiction." This unsourced text was restored again. It is also a violation of summary. This is way too detailed.

Violation of summary again along with unsourced text and exytreme details. QuackGuru (talk) 20:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, information about things such as education, licensing, and regulation are important for the article and therefore not too detailed. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The section is already a bit too long. The unsourced text should not be restored again. QuackGuru (talk) 21:29, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Not too long if you ask me. It seemed to have sourced material, no reason to remove such. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I previously explained some of the material is unsourced and there is no consensus to restore the SUMMARY violation. The section is too long again. QuackGuru (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Being discussed in the section below currently. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 09:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Previous controversial changes

Kshilts previously deleted pseudoscientific and other text from the chiropractic lede Neuraxis and Kshilts both make very similar comments. QuackGuru (talk) 04:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

An SPI might be a good thing. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Kshilts' edits 15-18 July 2014

Please, let's discuss Kshilts edits (including two other interleaved edits by BullRangifer & Monkbot). Per 2over0, QuackGuru, and Bullrangifer, these edits seem to have a fair amount of unsourced material. I will {{tb}} all who appear to be involved here. Jim1138 (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I support the reversion to previous version, poorly sourced (primary etc.) material given undue weight and overly credulous. - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree. His edits added far too much for this article. It's better suited for one of the sub articles. This version (edit 22:48, July 24, 2014‎ Jim1138) seems to be good, and it includes a minor grammatical improvement made in the mean time. Let's keep this version. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I made a revert simply because sourced material was deleted per "unsourced material". For example:

In the United States, each jurisdiction requires candidates for chiropractic licensure to have passed various parts of a national examination administered by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE).

or

The number of required continuing education credit hours varies per jurisdiction. In the United States, this ranges from a minimum of twelve (12) hours up to fifty (50) hours per year

The edit summary said "unsourced material". If there is some other issues with original research / primary sources etc., that's another thing. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 09:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I previously explained there was OR but you decided to restore the text. Do you agree there is OR? The other text was removed because it made the section too long. QuackGuru (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The unsourced text was restored against consensus and the section is too long again. QuackGuru (talk) 16:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

1. "National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE)".
2. http://pacex.fclb.org/RegulatoryBoards/BoardRequirements.aspx. Retrieved 2014-07-23. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |name= ignored (help)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Alternative medicine articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• B-Class Alternative views articles
• Mid-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• B-Class medicine articles
• Mid-importance medicine articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages