Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:53, 3 July 2006

Charles Buell Anderson

Also for deletion Endeavor Academy

I took a bit of time researching this, and although he looks like a swell guy, he simply doesn't meet WP:BIO. The school he started doesn't meet WP:ORG nor WP:CORP and after reading the links on both of the pages, they are mainly self-published resources. The Talk pages on the man have instructions on top and it looks like the area is being used by his fans which are old students (and some of which aren't exactly happy). I am nominating these articles to be deleted on the grounds that they haven't any reliable secondary sources, and are both completely original research. This article also uses sources written by the authors of the article, as well as one of the authors of this article being autobiographically close to the subject matter. Basically this article is an attack page in disguise. Please see the cite listings again, the actual authors of the web sites are listed. The clear relationship of self-published resources should now be apparent. Please note the first diff, and a later diff.

Ste4k 14:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom --NMChico24 00:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge bio (with much trimming) to the school article, Keep the school and tag for cleanup and sourcing. School is notable, especially given its triple standing as a school, a religious movement, and a planned community. KillerChihuahua 11:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The article is thoroughly-sourced and relatively NPOV. A Course in Miracles and related topics are a notable field of esoteric religion. Anderson is called the "Master Teacher" by an apparently large number of adherents. I disagree that the only sources are slef-published. On the contrary, the many reliable sources about him are proof of his notability. This page alone: has links to two dozen newspaper articles about him. -Will Beback 08:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I checked that link and only found material written from a single source about alleged articles rather than links to two dozen various sources of actual newpaper articles. The owner of the web site you mentioned is Ross, Rick, living at , and does not appear to meet the criteria as a reputible secondary source. Ste4k 09:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
    • The links in the articles are to reprints of articles from newspapers. Have you looked at them? Newspapers are reliable sources. I don't see why the webmaster's address is relevent. -Will Beback 10:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually I have, please see my analysis of those on the accompanying Disscussion page. Thanks. Ste4k 11:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the lead, I found one credible resource for the entire article now. Please see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/12/06/48hours/main73248.shtml It should be noted here, however, that using this one source for the article would require such a rewrite to avoid WP:NOR that the content in both of these articles would basically all be deleted, since we can only reprint the facts from the sources that we have cited. Correct? Ste4k 11:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Oh I just noticed, that the words in the two versions of that article are different; i.e. the actual article from the CBS archives differs from the article printed on the web site. Does this answer your question a little more about published sources and especially in regards to WP:RS in section 6 where it mentions "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources"? Ste4k 12:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
        • CBS News did a whole "48 Hours" segment on this group and you say they aren't notable? I think you've disproved your own case. -Will Beback 16:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
          • If you read the article that 48 hours wrote, it hasn't anything to do with the content in this article. That makes the content in this article original research. The article that 48 hours wrote, was apparently about a person who left the academy. If you feel that person should have an article of their own, then please feel free to write one. Thanks. Ste4k 17:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
            • The piece is titled "Leaving Endeavor Academy". That makes its subject fairly clear. An article doesn't have to be 100% about a subject for it to be a useful source. As it happens the piece discusses Endeavor Academy and quotes Anderson. -Will Beback 18:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
              • But since there is nothing from the CBS article content that's included in the Misplaced Pages article content, the CBS article is basically just moot material. And for the same reasons, basically none of these sources are useful for anything. This pseudo-biography hasn't a leg to stand on. It's completely bogus, original research, and an attack page in disguise. We shouldn't be including things in this biography that aren't already published somewhere else. That's WP:OR in a nutshell. This has nothing to do with notability at all. If this person were notable in the least bit, then we would be able to find reliable sources that give biographical data on him. But there aren't any of those available, especially not in the list that is cited. Also, because we now know that this article was created as an attack page, it falls under WP:CSD#A6 criterion for speedy delete. Ste4k 19:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

<-- "e now know that this article was created as an attack page". How do we know this? -Will Beback 19:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• • The clear relationship of self-published resources should now be apparent. Please note the first diff, and a later diff. Please note in the cited sources that the first three sources are web sites owned by the original author. Also notice the seventh cited source is a pointer to a web site owned by the other author whom claims to have been previously closely related with the subject-person of the bio. The content on those sites, and well as the content on the talk Discussion pages of the main article, should provide you with enough information to determine this for yourself. Ste4k 19:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep or Strong Merge to Endeavor Academy. The original nomination reads as if it might have been made in good faith. His argument that sources do not exist if the only place they are readily available online are "personal websites" is a specious argument that has been tried before in other cases, and has been quite rightly rejected -- but it still might have been the argument of someone just very confused about whether Misplaced Pages values the letter of the rules or the spirit. But after that, Ste4k's behavior shows clear bad faith. Anyone can check it and see. Ste4k: "Oh I just noticed, that the words in the two versions of that article are different; i.e. the actual article from the CBS archives differs from the article printed on the web site." (emphasis in original) Reality: the only differences are paragraph breaks and a typo ("talkd") in the CBS version that does not appear in the version on the Ross site. Ste4k: "If you read the article that 48 hours wrote, it hasn't anything to do with the content in this article. That makes the content in this article original research. The article that 48 hours wrote, was apparently about a person who left the academy. If you feel that person should have an article of their own, then please feel free to write one." Reality: In the two segments that 48 Hours did on Chuck Anderson, individual couples (yes, couples, as opposed to "a person") are used as examples of what people say about Chuck Anderson, but Anderson is clearly the focus. In short: This is a very dishonest AfD; not only should the article be kept, but Ste4k should be chastised for acting so dishonestly. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)