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Ancient Macedonians

This subject of this article appears to be a copy of the better sourced Ancient Macedonians, which also contains the word ancient or refers to it as ancient".Cosprings (talk) 11:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article has only 18 sources compared to the main Ancient Macedonians article which has over 200. I've redirected this page after you input was received per its reason for existence. Cosprings (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I haven't checked in detail the overlap of these two articles but I think the topics are sufficiently different to warrant separate articles. I am not comfortable with the redirect, given also that these articles are separate in many other wikis. I would welcome additional input from the wider community. Perhaps an RfC may be in order. Δρ.Κ.  14:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

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Should this article be redirected to Ancient Macedonians? Your input is welcome. Thank you. Δρ.Κ.  14:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• My first gut reaction was that a merger would very likely be a good idea, since I've never seen much use for this Wikipedian habit of having separate articles for ethnicities and their countries, where the factual scope of both topics can be considered as near-100% identical. However, in the present case, it turns out that both articles are of very substantial length already, with (apparently, from what I can gather at a quick glance) predominantly non-overlapping content, so a merger might lead to a rather unwieldy article. Before such a merger is done, I'd certainly want to see something like a planned outline first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for your input Future. I agree with your assessment that these articles are not identical as has been claimed and I fully agree that as a minimum any merger has to be planned. As a corollary to that, converting this article to a redirect is not a good idea at this stage. Δρ.Κ.  16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• I believe that these articles shouldn't be merged as they are both quite long articles and they refer to different subjects, a kingdom vs people. A merge will lead to a very long article where bias will be harder to rid, so it is better for it to stay how it is. When you search for the Macedonian Kingdom, you're not looking for the people are you?Luxure (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Kingdom?

Now, I will be going against the Greeks here, but there is only one reference saying it is a Greek Kingdom in the article, and it is contrary to the many authors/science which classify Macedonia as a separate Kingdom from Greece. Ancient Greece didn't have Kings, but thats not the point. There are many sources saying it is/isn't Greek, so I am going to change the subject line as it shows bias to one side of the argument. Also, the writing is inscribed in Greek, even though we do not know the runes/lettering system the Ancient Macedonians used. I await thy response and look forward to it. Luxure (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

"Ancient Greece didn't have kings" and "runes"? Given that these statements show astonishing ignorance of the area's history, and given that you fail to provide any of the many sources that say it isn't Greek, while removing a source that clearly says the opposite, I am reverting you. There are many arguments that can be made considering whether the Macedonians qualify as fully Greek, whatever that means, but "runes" or the kingship is not one of them. Come back when you have an informed argument based on sources. Constantine ✍ 11:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

We have had this discussion many times in the past (for example, here) and the consensus has always come down on the side of "ancient kingdom" without specifying its alleged "Greekness". "Ancient kingdom" is NPOV. The article itself specifies the relationship between the Greek city-states and the Macedonian kingdom in more detail. Placing a red flag in the first sentence of the article is definitely a violation of Misplaced Pages's WP:NPOV policy. --Taivo (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

@Taivo: Great, if the discussion has been held before and s definite consensus reached, that is it. I hope you do understand though why I reverted a change made on the basis that "Ancient Greece didn't have Kings". Constantine ✍ 09:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I thought this topic was closed, unfortunately we are becoming again victims of hotheads from the aegean and vardar macedonian parts. At least make a resolution here and dont affect the quality of the site with edit wars. and good luck guys with your wasting of enormous amounts of hours fighting here. I will only make one humble comment: winning such an internet debate is like wining the paraolympics. You might win it but you remain disabled. Stevepeterson (talk) 14:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You are in violation of both WP:AGF and WP:NPA here, Stevepeterson. The key here is a neutral first sentence to the article. WP:NPOV means that Misplaced Pages doesn't take sides in a nationalistic dispute, but tries to maintain neutral wording. Ancient Macedonia's cultural, political, and linguistic relationship to the Greek city-states is clearly spelled out in detail in the article--including both its Greek aspects and its non-Greek aspects. Throwing a POV red flag into the article in the first sentence is a violation of Misplaced Pages neutrality. --Taivo (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality isn't supposed to hide or distort the truth. All the reliable sources and historical evidence clearly show that Ancient Macedon was a Greek kingdom. Misplaced Pages is based on Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. Can you provide a shred of reliable evidence that ancient Macedonia wasn't Greek? I don't know what your motives are, but after reading comments like: "Ancient Greece didn't have Kings", "Macedonia's alleged "Greekness" I understand that some people here aren't only biased and historically ignorant, but they are in fact trying desperately to push a FYROM/Skopije pseudo-historic agenda that has no place in an encyclopedia like this. Writing down the truth based on countless reliable scientific historical evidence is not a violation of wikipedia's neutrality. I really couldn't believe that such blatant distortion of history and cheap pseudo-historic propaganda could ever permeate wikipedia. I sourced the "Ancient greek kingdom" phrase with historical evidence and reliable sources. Every unjustified removal of those sources would be considered as blatant and old-school vandalism. Furthermore, let me ask you this Taivo: Let's say for the sake of the argument that tomorrow morning Turkey starts advocating that Napoleon wasn't French but Turkish. Will you start forbiding wikipedia users to write down that Napoleon was French because they would be in violation of Misplaced Pages neutrality? Would you suggest that "Misplaced Pages doesn't take sides in a nationalistic dispute, but tries to maintain neutral wording" in that case? I don't think that you are trying to maintain neutrality here. I think you are giving FYROM/Skopije propaganda some vital space to grow, by showing blatant disregard for the reliable sources and by using neutrality as an excuse. Gtrbolivar (talk) 11:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The unbiased statement stands as it being an ancient kingdom on the NW Aegean Sea. I don't know where you are getting this 'FYROM' crap from. It seems that your a being biased to push your nationalistic views. Please re-read WP:NPOV if you want a Greek translate just ask Luxure (talk) 11:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Gtrbolivar, like Stevepeterson, is apparently afraid that every attempt at neutral wording is a cover for a Macedonian invasion of Greece (like the Commie behind every bush fears of the Cold War). Gtrbolivar's ridiculous Turkish/Napoleon example is simply a red herring. We're not talking about facts within the article, which is balanced and clear. We're talking about a summary sentence. Summary sentences must be balanced and NPOV. Macedonia was not a 100% Greek kingdom, it was a blended kingdom with Greek and non-Greek elements. As such, labeling it "Greek" in the first sentence pushes a single POV--which, especially in the current geopolitical climate--is not NPOV, but highly charged emotionally among a segment of our readers. Leaving the issue neutral in the first sentence allows readers of both persuasions to read the verified facts in the remainder of the article and to make their own determination as to whether Macedonia had enough "Greekness" to make it Greek or not. --Taivo (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

"Macedonia was not a 100% Greek kingdom". Who says that for God's sake? Was it 90% Greek? 82% Maybe 75%. What does that even mean? This is absolutely ridiculous. Even the wording and the whole spirit of that sentence is unscientific and totally subjective (to say the least). Are you a historian? What were the non-Greek elements of ancient Macedonia? Are we to take your word over Herodotus, Arrian, Strabo, Hummond and many other distinguished and acclaimed historians? Who gives you the right to remove sources and historical evidence? Gtrbolivar (talk) 12:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

They spoke Greek, they participated in the Olympic Games, they worshiped Greek gods, they identified themselves as Greeks, they were members -by their own admission and according to every historian- of the Greek race, their culture, their civilization, their customs, everything was Greek. They even spread Greek civilization all over the world. And those facts are backed up by every acclaimed historian and by hundreds of reliable sources. Gtrbolivar (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

To Luxure: I'm not gonna dignify your crap with a response, you are an ignorant who doesn't know the first thing about history ("Ancient Greece didn't have kings"). My advice to you: Go back to the elementary school or try to read Herodotus or Arrian at least. This could work miracles on you, take my word for it. Finally as far as the WP:NPOV is concerned, my English is very good (unlike yours apparently: "it is contrary to the many authors/science which classify Macedonia...", "It seems that your a being biased") and I don't need a "Greek translate". Maybe you need a Slavic translation (or whatever) to read that (quote): "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic (...) Neutral point of view is one of Misplaced Pages's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These three core policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles." By removing the sources and the historical evidence I provided, you are in blatant violation of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and you committed old-school vandalism. Gtrbolivar (talk) 13:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Read Demosthenes YOU are going against consensus, not one person has agreed with you. Stop vandalising. Also stop insulting intelligence of people you have never. YOU have not met a consensus so the original statement stands. 1 more revert and you WILL be blocked for violating the 3-revert rule Luxure (talk) 04:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Luxure not only you are a vandal (you even edited my comment in this page) but it appears that you are also a sockpuppet of someone else (under investigation). Stevepeterson (talk) 07:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Greek Peninsula

Greek Peninsula gives it an inherently 'Greek' Bias and also southern parts of Albania can be considered on the Greek Peninsula. Maps as viewed on this article show that it is on the NE Aegean Sea,on the turning point where it becomes apart of the greater 'mainland' not the peninsua, bordering the Chalcidice which is not apart of the peninsula, and the phrase 'Greek Peninsula' is rarely used elsewhere. I shalt await thy response Luxure (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a note that Macedonia was never on the northeast corner of the Aegean. It was on the northWEST corner of the Aegean. As far as "Greek peninsula" is concerned, what other name are you going to give that peninsula? --Taivo (talk) 04:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Typo Luxure (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

But my question still persists. What do you propose calling that peninsula if not "Greek peninsula". I did a cursory look at other Misplaced Pages article and the subsection of the much larger Balkan peninsula that comprises the nation of Greece and its northern periphery isn't named. Is there another name that you are aware of? --Taivo (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Rather than Greek peninsula(inherent bias by inferring it's Greek), North Eastern Aegean Sea is unbiased and gives a proper geographical view, rather than 'Greek Peninsula' (eg, the Greeks in Australia all live on a Peninsula, lets say, Cape Green, that place could now be called a 'Greek Peninsula' due to the amount of Greeks living there) Luxure (talk) 06:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Except that, contrary to the neologism you propose, "Greek peninsula" is an actual and widely used term for the southern part of the Balkans. Constantine ✍ 10:30, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Kingdom versus Ancient Kingdom

Dear all, I have experienced once more that this page has been a battlefield between grecomacedonians and slavmacedonians about how greek or how slavic ancient macedonia was. the resulting edit wars have lead to a compromise of the quality of this article and of wikipedia in general. Lets communicate your arguments here and make a conclusion before editing the final site.

Stevepeterson (talk) 06:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Now, I will be going against the Greeks here, but there is only one reference saying it is a Greek Kingdom in the article, and it is contrary to the many authors/science which classify Macedonia as a separate Kingdom from Greece. Ancient Greece didn't have Kings, but thats not the point. There are many sources saying it is/isn't Greek, so I am going to change the subject line as it shows bias to one side of the argument. Also, the writing is inscribed in Greek, even though we do not know the runes (yes, runes, we do not know)/lettering system the Ancient Macedonians used. I await thy response and look forward to it. Luxure (talk) 06:45, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Of course you will go against the greek Mcdonians because you are biased towards the Slav Macedonians for your own reasons. You wouldnt be so emotionally charged to go into edit wars otherwise. Can you please provide any reference from some of these authors/science that classifies and gives a definition of Greece at that time (separate or not to Macedonia, I am not interested to know)? Eben though I am not a historian but to my knowledge there is no such country as ancient Greece; but ancient states in South Balkan and the islands with names such as Corinth, Sparta, Athens, inhabited by people speaking Greek and believing in Greek polytheism (definition of the Greek ethnic group). These Greek states were first united by Alexander (with war like most unifications) and a new panhellenic identity that lead to the Hellenistic civilisation of Greek (Macedonian/Athenian/Corinthian/Spartan etc). Stevepeterson (talk) 07:06, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

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