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Mediation

A mediation has been requested by MSTCrow because of a dispute over article content. It would be helpful if those involved (User:RattBoy, User:Calton, User:Bkonrad and User:ceejayoz) could signal their involvement by signing directly below using four tildes (~~~~). This is just to acknowledge you are willing to have a discussion about the issues, with myself as mediator. David L Rattigan 14:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• — ceejayoz 15:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• MSTCrow 21:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Okay, but I'll only be on sporadically; might not be able to keep up if the discussion goes fast-n-furious.RattBoy 01:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• older ≠ wiser 13:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Though I'm not sure how much attention I'll be able to give to this.
• Sign

Please add mediation comments below

• Not that I'm itching to get involved, but it looks as if this is a 3 vs. 1 debate; I don't know how fair or constructive a 'mediation' is going to be. Haizum 15:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's precisely the advantage of a mediation. David L Rattigan 16:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, I've never seen one in action. Good luck. Haizum 21:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me start.

First, let me say that I dispute MSTCrow's characterization of my activities in this dispute.

Firstly, he accused me of making a "personal attack." That because I characterized his edit as "unsupported dogma" in this edit. Well, that's hardly a personal attack. I said nothing about the man. "Dogma" might be a charged word, but his edit was clearly unsupported. (His edit had another problem: by putting "misperceptions" in quotation marks, he was, in effect, using the article as an instrument of constructing an argument, belittling the word that another editor had chosen. I don't think that's very encyclopedic writing.)

Secondly, on his talk page, he accuses those who disagree with him of editing in bad faith, writing:

It's not clear at all if the content is disputed because the truth makes liberals look bad, that the criticisms section has to be censored to keep too much of NPR's faults publicly known, or that "truth" isn't even allowed, see disc. on talk page. All three are in bad faith reasons for disputing content.

I can't speak for others, but I've allowed criticisms of NPR (mostly from the right wing, but some from lefties) to stay on the page, in keeping with NPOV.

That-all said, what about the content itself?

It seems there are two issues in play here. The first is: is it relevant to include the poll results in the article in the first place? The second is: are MSTCrow's edits an appropriate "counterbalance" to the poll results?

Is it relevant?

I was the one who inserted the "Supporters contend..." paragraph. The reason that I included it was to bring some objective facts to the table.

Prior to my edit, the section was one of the typical "Criticism" sections found in articles on controversial subjects all over WP: "Critics say that it has a (left/right)-wing bias. Supporters contend that the critics are a bunch of (right/left)-wing loonies. Nobody can tell the truth, because there is no universal yardstick for determining bias..."

But here's a source for objective information about the fruits of NPR's product. Somebody actually found out how well consumers were informed. Turns out, NPR and PBS consumers were well informed about the Iraq war—more so than any other news-consuming demographic in America. I believe that this information is well sourced, credible, and extremely relevant to an encyclopedic reader's understanding of NPR. As schools are evaluated based on their students' performance on standardized tests, news organizations can fairly be judged based on the quality of their consumers' knowledge. "By their fruit shall you know them," a wise man once said.

Contrasting NPR's audience with that of Fox News might appear to be a gratuitous slam at the latter, but that's not the intention. The poll found NPR/PBS at one end of the spectrum, and Fox at the other. The gross disparity between the news consumers' overall knowledge about key current events is relevant and encyclopedic.

I hope to address questions about MSTCrow's edits at another time. I'll just say that, if the poll results are inaccurate or misleading, then they should be counterbalanced. But if they're accurate, as I believe they are, then "counterbalancing" only fogs up the issues and weakens the quality fo Misplaced Pages as a reference source.--RattBoy 01:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediator's observations

1. I haven't seen any evidence of personal attacks. "Unsupported dogma" is not a personal attack, although I think it is in everyone's interest if we keep our explanations as non-inflammatory as possible. "Unsupported assertion" or "unsourced assertion" would have been better, and less likely to cause an argument.
2. All arguments must be backed up by verifiable sources. Misplaced Pages:No original research prevents editors from creating their own original arguments or critiques.
3. If the section is to remain as it is, it seems to me fair that User:MSTCrow should provide a verifiable source that makes his argument. MSTCrow, can we agree that in order to provide a counterargument to the poll (consistent with WP:OR), you need to cite another study or critique that makes your points (rather than making the arguments from scratch yourself)?
4. I'm not sure we need this much detail at all. MSTCrow, do you think it is necessary to give detailed arguments about WMD, Al Q'aeda etc in this article? My instinct is to say that if a verifiable source can be found that challenges the results of the poll, the most that need be said is something like this: Joe Bloggs has challenged the accuracy of the survey because of its assumptions about the Iraq War. It seems going into more detail could lead us down a rabbit trail that's not directly relevant to the article.

What do folk think about those points?

Basically, here's what I'm looking for:

• Rattboy et al, do you agree that if MSTCrow can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it is fair to mention the challenge in the article?
• MTSCrow, do you agree that if you can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it can be mentioned without having to go into actual arguments for and against aspects of the Iraq War?

David L Rattigan 11:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if MSTCrow can find a verifiable source that critiques the NPR survey, it is fair to mention the challenge in the article. <suckup>By the way, Mr. Rattigan, thank you for undertaking this effort. I was skeptical, because I didn't know how you would "run" this mediation, but you have been constructive and fair. </suckup>--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note the actual survey questions as posted by Sdedeo above. MSTCrow's statements and sources do not address the actual survey at all. Ideogram 12:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• For the most part, I agree with Rattboy's statements. This article is not the place to present evidence regarding the factuality of claims regarding the existence of WMD in Iraq or the level of contact and collaboration between Sadaam Hussein and Al-Quaeda (both of which are still matters of considerable uncertainty). IMO, the surevey itself is really not that essential to the article. It could be toned down to remove the fairly gratuitous slap at Fox News viewers or removed entirely, AFAIC. If there are any reliable sources that directly address the survey, then that could be included. older ≠ wiser 13:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I gave reasons why I think the poll is relevant to the article. Since you haven't rebutted my reasons, you haven't made a case for why you think it could be removed entirely.

I summed up "why" by saying I didn't think it was essential to the article. I personally do not object to it, but at the same time, I do not think it is a necessary component for encyclopedic coverage of NPR. If it is a bone of contention then I'd have no problem with simply removing it rather than engaging in protracted debates about the validity of the survey that are entirely superfluous to the NPR article. older ≠ wiser 13:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Re. the "fairly gratuitous slap at Fox News viewers," here's why I think it's relevant to contrast the NPR numbers with those of the Fox News audience: by itself, saying "only 23% of the NPR / PBS audience believed those untruths" has no context and, thus, little meaning. The intrepid surfer wouldn't know how NPR compares with other news outlets. (The other outlets could all be insignificantly worse, at 25-27%, for all s/he knows.)

If there's still a concern that Fox news and its viewers are being singled out for ridicule, perhaps the following phrasing would work:

In particular, only 23% of NPR listeners /PBS viewers held one of three common misperceptions about the Iraq War; in contrast, 47-80% of the consumers of other print and broadcast media were similarly misinformed.

That would give context to the poll; the surfer could check the link if s/he wants to know exactly which outlet's viewers were misinformed at the 80% level, and Fox-hounds need not be offended.

By the way, where do you get "both (the existence of WMD in Iraq or the level of contact and collaboration between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda) are still matters of considerable uncertainty?" WMDs were not found by the autumn of 2003. They have not been found to this date—Senator Santorum's trumpeting of decades-old, decaying chemical munitions notwithstanding. Similarly, no substantial connection between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda has been demonstrated. See the Saddam Hussein and the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda pages.--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that AFAIC, there has not been any solid evidence that either WMDs have been found or that there was any significant degree of collaboration between Sadaam and Al-Quaeda. But, I am willing to concede that others do not share my opinion on the matter and hence is still a matter of considerable uncertainty. older ≠ wiser 13:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda article actually states: "The question of a working relationship between Saddam and al-Qaeda is still being debated. While some meetings between agents of Saddam's government and members of al-Qaeda have been documented, the consensus of experts and analysts has held that those contacts never led to an "operational" relationship." This is option 3 in the survey. The survey erroneously claims option 4 (no contact at all) is the correct one. If you admit they had even had a few meetings (which the survey hypocritically acknowledges somewhat), then you have to concede the survey is in error. As for the "decaying" munitions, read the article on Sarin gas both here and . They found binary munitions, which do not degrade like unary sarin munitions. The fact that Saddam had them (and had them well hidden) basically turns the whole WMD issue on its head. 69.181.214.118 03:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

As Ideogram states, MSTCrow's sources don't in any way challenge the poll. They are irrelevant to it. — ceejayoz 02:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are verifiable sources that don't critique, but contradict the survey not acceptable? Any critique of the survey would necessarily include sources contradicting the survey's assumptions, so this is going to more first hand sources. My comments most certainly do address the actual survey, as it eliminates the very premise on which the survey relies upon. - MSTCrow 03:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the questions. Ideogram 03:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC) The survey doesn't make any assumptions. Ideogram 03:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

MSTCrow, WP:OR prohibits making original arguments and analysis. Making your own arguments, even if based on evidence, would mean doing an original analysis of the survey. The policy "in a nutshell" reads: Articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position. David L Rattigan 07:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, ok, then the survey itself needs to be tossed, as it gauged NPR listener "accuracy" based on false assumptions of fact. - MSTCrow 08:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to be careful, Mr. Crow. What you see as "verifiable sources" are in fact very partisan. You criticized me for listing Media Matters as a source on the Talk Page (despite the fact that I acknowledged that it was not a primary source, and that I offered to dig up better sources when I had more time), at the same time that you were listing Accuracy in Media and CNS News as sources in the main article. Your credibility will be maximized if you are consistent.

I agree with you, that the "assumptions of fact" listed in the survey are relevant to this discussion. You claim that the assumptions are false, but you make no good case for that POV in this discussion. Santorum's claim of WMDs having been found recently is both irrelevant to the 2003 situation and securely debunked (see the WaPo link given above, for one).

I agree that the NPR page is not the place to debate the whole issues of al Qaeda links and WMDs. We'd be here ad infinitum! For a reference, then, I think it's best to use the Wiki pages Weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, neither of which supports your position. The survey reflects the best knowledge about the two issues, and thus it is appropriate for continued inclusion in the article.--RattBoy 12:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages page Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda does have multiple quotes and sources from those who believe the two are linked, while Iraq and weapons of mass destruction also lends credence to the existence of WMDs in Iraq, most notably 'Then on June 21, 2006 a report was released stating that Coalition forces had recovered "approximately 500 weapons munitions" containing "degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent" since 2003. "Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions," it said, "filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War munitions are assessed to still exist." ' The survey was conducted in bad faith, claiming as undisputed fact matters where which either far from clear or positively known to be otherwise. It is not appropiate to include a heavily biased and skewed survey in the article. - MSTCrow 13:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Crow, what does the word, "degraded," mean to you?--RattBoy 12:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully we can drop this part of the discussion now. MSTCrow has agreed (below) to dig out a source that directly addresses the survey - wrangling over the Iraq situation is tangential. David L Rattigan 12:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Apologies, withdrawn, Sir.--RattBoy 00:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No problem, my fellow "Ratt"! David L Rattigan 08:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Arguments for/against Iraq - red herring

I think debating the pros and cons of the Iraq War is leading us in the wrong direction. It amounts to a new analysis of the survey, which is original research. We need to stick to primary sources. The survey itself is one primary source. MSTCrow, it is fine to bring in a counterargument, but it must be sourced rather than argued from scratch. Do you have or could you find an appropriate source that challenges the survey? I think this should be the focus now, as trying to construct new arguments against the survey violates OR. David L Rattigan 13:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to locate a counter-source. - MSTCrow 10:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, great. That would be the most helpful thing at this stage. David L Rattigan 10:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, the actual survey questions:

Let's get one thing straight. Here are the poll questions:

• Iraq was involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks or proven to be supporting al-Qaeda;
• Weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq; and
• International popular opinion favored the U.S. war against Iraq.

None of these questions could possibly be argued to be true at the time of the survey. Iraq was not involved in Sept. 11. It had not been proven (at the time) to be supporting al-Qaeda. Weapons of mass destruction had not been found in Iraq at the time. International popular opinion was against the war.

MSTCrow keeps asserting the poll was based on false assumptions of fact. I invite him to specifically explain how finding WMD in 2006 implies weapons of mass destruction had been found as of 2003. Also let him explain how any of his other sources contradict the survey which specifically speaks of the situation as proven in 2003. Ideogram 18:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources challenging the NPR survey

MSTCrow is trying to find a source that directly addresses the NPR survey. Hopefully we can now concentrate on that, as a legitimate source directly addressing the survey would be fine within WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Would be great if we can steer clear of Iraq-related discussions for now, as they are only tangential and likely to get in the way of improving the article. Cheers! David L Rattigan 12:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The discussion from yesterday and today has been archived. I did ask that we steer clear of debating the survey, and stick to finding primary sources for and against the NPR survey. Getting back into debating the Iraq War/Fox News etc is a distraction. It's only going to produce original research, which is not what we should be doing.

Just to reiterate: MSTCrow has agreed to look for a source that directly addresses the survey. It would be great if everyone could concentrate on the issue at hand and avoid being drawn back into political arguments. Cheers, ya'll. David L Rattigan 16:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

My argument isn't original research. The survey is akin to finding a website somewhere that said that the September 11th attacks occured on September 12th. It is not fact-checked or accurate, therefore is not suitable for use as a wikipedia source. Wkerney 22:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop repeating yourself. Your argument was answered and archived. --Ideogram 22:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Answering your "objections" (Give me a quote! No, another quote! Which part of that quote is the quote?) reduced the thread into an inane argument answering the same questions to you over and over. And over. My central thesis remained unchallenged. (By the way, asking someone to quote himself for the tenth time doesn't count as a counter-argument.) While the use of the study might be appropriate in a discussion about the reportage on Iraq, it's inappropriate for use in an article on public radio. My advice would be to find a similar study that is reputable and fact-checked, unlike this one. Wkerney 22:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately saying something doesn't make it so. --Ideogram 23:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)