Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:43, 22 September 2014

Notes Normal humans: I'm not online as much as many other admins. You probably should bug another admin if you need something in a hurry. Admins: I usually check in at least a few times a day I'm only likely to be checking in once every one to three days for a while, so if something is time sensitive, go ahead and undo or change any admin action I've taken without feeling like you have to talk to me first. WP:SOLVED WP:LIGHTBULB WP:VOGONS WP:BEDFELLOWS

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Your unblock of Sitush

I fear that your unblock may stir quite a bit of controversy, considering that the AN/I thread is still pretty active... I urge you to reconsider. I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but the fact that Sitush hasn't even responded yet concerns me over your actions. Dusti 21:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Nah; if we've really reached the point where an editor like Sitush is valued less than this user, and the WP:NEVERSAYANYTHINGINANGEREVER is the most important policy, where one intemperate remark results in an indef block and a long ridiculous argument about it, then WP has finally jumped the shark as an actual encyclopedia. If that really is the case, more drama doesn't matter. Although it appears WP is still fairly healthy as a MMORPG, in which case, everyone should be happy about more drama. So it's win-win. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

It was quite interesting watching some of the MMORPG players trying to figure out which way the wind was blowing in that thread, so they could decide what their opinion on it might be. Thank you for doing the right thing. LHM 22:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I do have an opinion. Good unblock, Floq. The ability to see through the smoke and noise is rare these days around here. It restores my faith that it is alive and, well..., alive, really. ty. Begoon  21:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Begoon. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

No. I'm thanking you. You have no idea how it is to have to watch impotently whilst context is ignored and "justice" is doled out on the strength of a pretty much poked and baited reaction, uttered in a moment of anger, while everyone piles onto said reaction with no regard (deliberately or otherwise) for the big picture. No... hang on... you do - that's why you unblocked. ty. Begoon  21:37, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Good unblock, good work. Black Kite (talk) 22:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oh God! You broke... a rule (see reaction, right). Yes, but in doing so you finally took a stand against the baiting and sycophantic pandering that allows professional activist editors to run the show. Nailed it. Keep it up. St★lwart 22:35, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• No, he didn't just "break a rule" and do so for the side of good. He took advantage of a loophole in our policies that allows the second mover in any dispute to gain an enormous advantage. His undoing of the original block, while violating our policies regarding undoing admin actions, is unfortunately not subject to an automatic desysop. Any admin that undid Floquenbeam would be subject to such a desysop. It really doesn't matter which way you think the block state should be, it's irresponsible to support such cynical misbehaviour. Floquenbeam has an unfortunate habit of using this loophole to ensure that we do things the Floquenbeam way.—Kww(talk) 23:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• So, basically he didn't break a rule at all, and you're just pissed off that you can't just undo Floque's unblock without being desysop'd? Good to know. LHM 23:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
• So he "took advantage of a loophole in our policies" and " so for the side of good". While ever we ignore all rules with regard to the professional activist who has been pushing a block for a fortnight (breaching canvassing, NPA, and CIV in the process) we should extend the same courtesy to those willing to stand up against such silliness. St★lwart 23:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• No, he absolutely violated WP:RAAA. I'm upset that Floquenbeam has a habit of unblocking disruptive editors, and takes advantage of a policy loophole to do so. This is the third such unblock I'm aware of, and it's not like I make a habit of monitoring his unblocks.—Kww(talk) 00:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

  No, he did not. It's not a "loophole", it's designed to keep angry, law-and-order admins from simply reinstating a block when a good admin like Floque unblocks. It's a good policy. LHM 00:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• How can you read his action as following WP:RAAA? Where's his participation in a discussion prior to the unblock?—Kww(talk) 00:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

  An admin gauging the weight of arguments in a discussion, and arriving at a decision, is not required to participate in that discussion prior to making the decision. I see what Floque did as similar to closing a somewhat contentious AFD in that way. It's not a !vote, Kww, and the weight of the arguments favored unblocking a valued contributor, with a clean block log, who used intemperate words. All other argument basically boiled down to "but he didn't apologize!", "it doesn't matter if he was serious", or some variant of those. I'm sure you'll disagree with this, perhaps vehemently. I'm also quite certain that you'll be wrong when you do. LHM 00:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• I most certainly disagree. The only argument in favor of unblocking him was essentially that we should tolerate childish outbursts. That's an argument that holds no weight whatsoever. Editors that cannot refrain from such behaviour have no place among us.—Kww(talk) 01:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

  An editor like Sitush certainly has "a place among us"--much more than "editors" who seem to exist only to promote bureaucratic bullsh. LHM 01:22, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• He shouldn't have been blocked in the first place and had the blocking admin been aware of the context, I don't think he would have been. When someone is shoved closer and closer to the edge, their subsequent fall should not be considered a "childish outburst". The word you're looking for is "inevitable". Want to talk about things we shouldn't "tolerate"? I can point you in the right direction. St★lwart 01:27, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate unblocks

There's no general problem with unblocking people, but there is a substantial problem with the way you do it. Could you have the courtesy to discuss it with people and gain a consensus that the unblock is an appropriate action? Your technique of undoing blocks without discussion or consensus forces everyone else immediately into a corner, where we either have to tolerate your action or violating WP:WHEELWAR. Your unblock of Sitush is a violation of WP:RAAA.—Kww(talk) 21:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Everybody wasn't already in their respective corners already? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter: no one gave you the power to unilaterally unblock people when the blocking admin objected and there was no consensus to do so.—Kww(talk) 21:34, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Kww, this IS the definition of a good unblock. A prolific content editor (more than 100,000 edits of which 85% are in wikispace) with a clean block log has been told "we appreciate the work you do here, please don't go away". Now, you can either accept that we - Misplaced Pages, that is - are in a better place than we were a few hours ago or you can grumble bureaucratically about the right paperwork not having been filed. Are you on the side of creating drama or creating an encyclopedia, the call is yours. --regentspark (comment) 00:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it's the definition of a bad unblock. An editor violated policy, was blocked as a result, and Floquenbeam proceeded to substitute his judgement for the original administrator's without consulting the original administrator or having consensus to override him. It's not a matter of not filing the right paperwork, it's a matter of Floquenbeam misbehaving.—Kww(talk) 00:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Then try for his tools. See where that gets you. LHM 00:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not terribly polite to try to goad/dare/taunt someone into action that would desysop someone else. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Two responses: one bureaucratic and one practical.

First, for the general case: You say that an unblock like this gives me an unfair second mover advantage, but the other choice is an even worse first mover advantage. No one "gave" Mike V the power to "unilaterally" block people, either. You block when you think there would be consensus for it if it was discussed; if someone unblocks, you gain consensus to reblock. The problem is there are lots and lots and lots of cases where no consensus develops either way, but if we do things your way, the result is a sustained block with no consensus, whereas my way, the worst that happens is an unblock with no consensus. I know which way I'd prefer things, I guess I know which way you prefer things, but I'm not taking advantage of a "loophole". It's a feature, not a bug. It works out this way for a reason, because it's the most stable way to do it. Just like WP:BRD is a relatively more stable way to edit; we'd have a nightmare on our hands if anyone could change an article, and if anyone else didn't like it, they would have to get consensus before they could change it back. If we required a consensus to unblock someone once they were blocked by an admin, the number of poor blocks will increase.

Also, I'm curious. Did any of the rogue unblocks I've made that bother you end up being reversed by a consensus somewhere? I don't think they have, but if I'm wrong and they have, feel free to point them out.

Second, for this particular case, from a practical point of view: I'll repeat what I said in the unblock log: That was not an actual threat. If Sitush is really leaving (I hope not), one intemperate comment doesn't need to sully a reputation forever. No one honestly thinks that was an actual threat of violence. It was unwise, hotheaded, and atypical hyperbole in response to someone making fun of editors feeling threatened in real life. Almost everyone who commented at ANI knows this in their hearts. People are not upset that a real threat of violence was made; they see something they can cynically pretend to interpret as a real threat of violence in order to act like they are on the side of goodness and righteousness and law and order.

If Sitush had made a habit of this, I wouldn't have unblocked him. But he doesn't. WP is acting dysfunctionally about this, and I attempted to short circuit the dysfunction.--Floquenbeam (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	Thank you for doing the right thing regarding Sitush. LHM 22:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Just FYI

In case you don't keep the Committee of Pigs on your watchlist, I thought I'd let you know that there are a few editors who seem rather serious about taking your unblock before Arbcom. Nothing may come of it, as it feels a lot like people blowing of steam because you didn't check the boxes they wanted you to check before making your decision, but I just didn't want you to be blindsided. LHM 02:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Lithistman: I've ignored most of your comments that I've found offensive, but "Committee of Pigs" is over the top and really inflammatory. Please stop trying to fan the flames. The situation is heated as is. Dusti 02:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)