Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:59, 8 July 2006

Notice to other Wikipedians: requested username change

See my request; here's what I wrote:

Please change User:Bonnyman to User:A. B. for privacy reasons. When I first became active, I thought that by changing my signature handle to A. B., I would preserve my anonymity, but my name still shows up in many places. I don't need perfect anonymity (I don't care if Wikipedians know my name), but it's a little creepy that my name shows up on Google searchs, allowing non-Wikipedians (especially industry colleagues) to look at my talk page, then my contributions. I'd rather change it now while I still have a low edit count (under 1000) than later.

Once the change takes affect, I will also edit any remaining pages where I see my user name to reflect the name change. If anyone has any concerns, please contact me by e-mail. I will keep this notice on my user and talk pages a week or two after the change takes affect.

--A. B. 13:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

PS Maybe I should just have requested User:TypoKing instead ...

Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting -- ~~~~ at the end.
Start a new talk topic.

Welcome to my user talk page.

If you leave me a message here on my talk page, I will respond here to avoid fragmenting a discussion.

--A. B. 19:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)A. B.

Thanks re Dutchess County vandalism.

Thanks for the great work you're doing.

Please include in the subject of future DC emails so we can easily track all responses at info-en@. -- Jeandré, 2006-05-14t12:44z

Alexander Bonnyman

Hi there, I think you should add more biographical information to the page about Alexander Bonnyman, Jr., like that he went to Princeton, lived in Knoxville, etc. --Awiseman 14:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion -- I have just done so. I tried capture the essence of the man without too much editorializing or puffery. I think an important part of his Tarawa story is how multiple components of his personality, skills and background -- some a source of controversy in his pre-war life -- converged in his final three days.--A. B. 15:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks good. --Awiseman 16:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Ashe

Thanks for your comment on the Victor Ashe article. I was planning on adding one more paragraph -- on annexation policies -- when I had time. Acantha1979 04:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)Acantha

La Tormenta

I'm not entirely sure why I did that - I think the version I was looking at was with the example image and it looked like a newbie playing around. Anyway, I sent the user in question an apology and removed my warning. Thanks for keeping me honest and on my toes. --Bachrach44 18:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:AN/I

Having reviewed the Victor Ashe article, to which I came after reading your Administrators' Noticeboard posting, I think, even as I won't revert your link excision, that you have misapplied WP:LIVING in this case, although your admonishment of the anon user was likely appropriate, if only in order that he/she might be aware of WP:LIVING and comport any future edits with it (inasmuch as it seems the user tends toward disruption and is decidely biased against the subjects of certain articles he edits, it's likely that he might make future edits that contravene the letter of WP:LIVING). There are a few things, though, that I think you might do well to remember with respect to WP:LIVING:

1. There is profound disagreement over the application of WP:LIVING to article talk pages; at the very least, there is a consensus, I think, for the view that article talk pages ought not to subject to the same strict scrutiny under LIVING that mainspace pages are. In any case, WP:LIVING is a guideline and not policy, and reasonable editors will disagree as to its scope.
2. Though Misplaced Pages:Template messages/Disputes doesn't offer a clear prescription, it is generally thought that the {{blp}} template ought only to be used on article talk pages and not in mainspace; certainly the former usage is much more common than the latter (since it is a message to editors and not to readers, cf., {{NPOV}} ).
3. The posting of a link to a statement of fact essayed by an external individual is emphatically not libelous, viz., because
   1. It is well settled that, while that, under certain circumstances, the republishing of libellous material may be civilly actionable or, in a few jurisdictions, criminally proscribed, the simple publication of a link provides an insufficient nexus of harm to be colorable.
   2. Assuming arguendo that the publication of a link can be understood as orthogonal to the publication of the actual text to which the link points, a publisher is nevertheless immune from civil suit where he/she/it can be reasonably confident of the veracity of the textual aversions (if only facially in view of the idenity of the author) and is thus non-negligent; here, the author is a candidate for the Democratic nomination for governor of Nevada, and, though surely a bit kooky and altogether sure to lose, she nevertheless commanded some support to qualify for the ballot and is a source whom we can legitimately trust.
4. Of course, it is generally thought that any civil action undertaken against Misplaced Pages for libel of this sort would fail for sundry other reasons, but I accept that your redaction was undertaken in view of policy, rather than legal, concerns.

In sum, I certainly understand that you acted to protect the encyclopedia, and I don't think your actions to have been unreasonable (although I don't think we ought to remove the "offending" edit from the history); I write only so that you might know that the precepts of LIVING aren't interpreted consistently, and that their application does not always carry a consensus. In this case, of course, there's absolutely no harm to the project from the removal of the link (although it can be argued that we ought to reference the allegations--not as fact, of course, but as truth asserted by a quasi-notable individual--per WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V, but if indeed our article ought to note the allegations, someone else will raise the issue), and I suspect that, were the information of legitimate encyclopedic quality, you wouldn't have removed it straightaway. The point of all of this, I suppose, is to say that your good faith is appreciated, that you seem to be doing fine work on the Ashe page, and that, though no one is going to object here, if you consider elsewhere making larger changes in view of LIVING, you oughtn't to be discouraged if some others don't support those changes. Cordially, Joe 19:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. In light of the above, I will drop this matter.--A. B. 23:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You needn't to feel bound by my singular opinion; even as I would like to think otherwise, I am neither infallible nor omniscient. I don't think it's necessary for us to remove the "offending" edit (if only because, well, it's unlikely anyone's ever going to see it, and no untoward description was included in the edit summary), but neither would the project by ill-served by our removing it; if you feel uncomfortable with it, you should surely seek the advice of others (you might, for example, use the {{helpme}} template, which likely will draw administrator response much quicker than a posting on one of the noticeboards. I suspect that our Misplaced Pages philosophies, to say nothing of our general morals, are profoundly different, as evidenced by our profound disagreement over how we ought to handle the putative child solicitation (I advocated, at AN/I and on Jimbo's talk page, for our doing absolutely nothing, finding there to have been nothing wrong, other than the misuse of user talk space for extra-encyclopedic purposes, with the conversations), and the divisions between us (generally, with respect to Wikiethics mirror those between good sections of the community), and so it's quite possible that another user will view the Ashe matter differently. In any event, the reasoned and deliberative nature of your correspondences (especially on the noticeboards) is commendable and refreshing; I'm always happy to find project participants who aren't averse to collaborative conversations. Joe 03:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Welcoming users

Hi, remember to welcome users on their talk pages and not their userpages. Thanks!--Kungfu Adam 00:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for catching my mistake.--A. B. 01:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Project Galatea

I'm glad you found Project Galatea inspiring. I've kind of abandoned the poor project, for lack of time and energy, but I definitely hope to come back to it someday (soon?). Naturally, you can, and should, make the project your own as much as you like; this is still Misplaced Pages, after all :) --Ashenai 01:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Enaction

Greetings! Thank you for the pointer re the original editor of the enaction article. I check the history but not always the user, so I missed that this user was new. The other red flag, to me, was the link to the ENACTIVE Network...I guess the spam sensor got a false-positive on that one. :)

I have done three things: first, I changed my {{prod2}} tag on the article to {{prod2a}} and clarified what my objections to the article are. Second, I wrote to the editor on his talk page regarding improvements I'd like to see in the article. Finally, I tagged the article as a stub to hopefully solicit other editors to expand the article. Hopefully, the original editor or somebody else will be able to expand out the article—and with a good expansion, I will gleefully deprod the article. —C.Fred (talk) 04:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Shadowman7

I suspect this user had some connection to the articles he created, but the film he wrote about won an award and they're all listed on IMDB. I tend to not think of blatant advertising as an honest mistake, so I'm afraid I tend to be harsh in that regard. However, I do send a warning the first time, I drop the hammer on a non-notable article. I only get really harsh when someone reposts material they know is inappropriate.

Anyway, thanks for the nice note. It feels nice to be appreciated. Educating newbies is a good cause and I'm glad you're doing it. - Mgm| 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Kudos from a neutral in this war

Dear Bonnyman:

In the talk page of Sovereignty of the Falkland Islands you wrote:

I was impressed to see how neutral this article was (at least in my eyes). I can also tell from the talk page that it took a lot of effort and forbearance on the part of both the Argentine and British editors to make this happen. I know that wasn't always easy. I'm sure that to the truly well-informed there may still be some flaws, but I can't find them.

Maybe so, although the result falls a little bit short of NPOV. For your information, here follows an example from the article.

The table titled "Timeline of de facto control" claims that the islands were under Argentine de facto control during the early 1830s including the period of time when the Argentine settlement was occupied by the US Navy.

There is nothing new in this well known and amply documented undisputable fact. The Americans took full control, arrested and repatriated virtually all the Argentine settlers, some of them in chains. And this is still Argentine de facto control?!

For the sake of thoroughness, cf. say :

El 28 de diciembre de 1831, enarbolando bandera francesa, la corbeta Lexington arribó a Puerto Soledad. Una partida desembarcó y destruyó el asentamiento, tomando prisioneros a la mayoría de sus habitantes. El día 8 de febrero de 1832 el buque norteamericano arribó al puerto de Montevideo con seis de los prisioneros engrillados y otros en calidad de pasajeros. Todos fueron luego liberados en el puerto. Antes de abandonar las islas, Duncan había declarado a éstas libres de todo gobierno (res nullius).

The date when the Americans took control was 28 December 1831, and they stayed 22 days :

La corbeta permanece 22 días en las islas.

Even the facsimiles of the original American reports of the events are available online. (By the way, you might be interested to see there also the facsimile of relevant excerpts from Julius Goebel's pro-Argentine book, which in particular mentions Britain's internationally recognized rights of economic activities on the islands conceded by Spain under the Nootka Sound Convention.)

The missing entry in the table corresponding to that actual situation would be:

December 1831 - January 1832 USA

So it is very important and NPOV whether to put in the table the XVIII Century flags of France and Great Britain or the modern ones, but less so that the US flag is replaced by the Argentine for December 1831 - January 1832. So much for NPOV. Apcbg 09:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Apcbg,

I guess it depends on your point of view. I'm probably less of a stickler for details.

As I noted in my comment, "I'm sure that to the truly well-informed there may still be some flaws ...". I realize that article is not perfect, but when I consider the historical sweep of the sovereignity issue, I'm not sure the American occupation makes a lot of difference and I am impressed that Argentine and British editors have been able to hammer out a document that's very NPOV overall.

The other thing I wanted to say was how impressed I've been with all your Antarctica-related contributions. Thanks for undertaking all that you've done.

--A. B. 09:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bonnyman:

You are right that the importance of that occupation could depend on your point of view — hence to label it 'detail' is POV. The fact of occupation itself however is no POV. (It was more than important by the way, it was crucial; what happened at that time was that Argentina tried to establish effective control which it did not have — there were more English and American sealing ships (on the average 100 ships, each with a crew of some 20) than there were Argentine settlers! So Argentina tried to establish control by force (Vernet's action against three US sealers) and that was rejected by the US Government, the USA responded by force, which opened the door for the British intervention in 1933. If that is 'detail' then the article could be reduced to its title alone. The same 'detail' is the Argentine occupation in April - June 1982 — how come it's in the table and the American one is not? The article is markedly biased, and I though it appropriate to point that out to you as you suggested it was NPOV. Anyway, I see that it's unproductive to get involved in this topic, and prefer to allocate valuable time resource to more constructive contributions elsewhere than correcting old wrongs, even though these become the source of considerable disinformation given the massive reproduction and perpetuation of Misplaced Pages material by countless Internet sources. Many thanks for your kind opinion of my Antarctica-related contributions. Apcbg 10:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

USS Farragut (DDG-37)

Thanks for your words 150.214.167.153 12:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Your comment to new user CJC47 last month

That's great to hear on both accounts. Thank you for brightening my day! Rklawton 17:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

mikkalai re: my talk page

In your endeavors to bring about a more pleasant environment, have you perchance crossed paths with mikka? He seems a most unpleasant sort, but given his only one brief communication, I'm not entirely sure what to make of him. Rklawton 01:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have not dealt with this editor/administrator. From looking at his user and talk pages, he looks like a prolific contributor who has not gotten into many disputes (given the extent of all he's done). I see you reverted his April 1 addition as not fitting into the agreed-upon format. It looks as if he was editing in good faith and you, in turn, reverted in good faith. As for his comment, it's a bit cryptic. Maybe he didn't really understand why you did what you did? (My impression from your edit summary is that the date pages have an agreed upon organization and layout that's not to be fiddled with). It might help if he knew that this format is not based on Rklawton's personal whim but a project consensus.

I've got to go. I wish you both the best in working this out. If I can help, let me know. I'll be back next week.

--A. B. 02:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfair

I wasn't following him around, U of T is on my watchlist. I was wrong, and I left his revert in tact. As for the other article, I'll leave it a few days, and then put it on AFD. Ardenn 03:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn, thanks for your patience with new contributor Slagish‎ -- I notice you later helped him with links and categories for his Toronto Region -- Statistics Canada Research Data Centre (Toronto RDC) article . Statistical research is not exactly my cup of tea either, but the centre did seem like it would meet Misplaced Pages's notability criteria once the article was expanded.

Also, I'm glad to learn you weren't following Slagish around as I'd initially thought. I had noticed that within one or two minutes, you'd both PROD'ed his first article and reverted his edit on another, so I thought maybe you were following him or had an itchy trigger finger.

--A. B. 03:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this. Ardenn 03:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn, I always try to assume good faith but I'm certainly not perfect; see my edits on other users' talk pages and judge for yourself.

When I look at your talk and user contribution pages, I see a highly productive editor (almost 1000 edits in the last month) with an unusually low number of comments. Your Canadian-related contributions in particular have been prolific and very useful to the Misplaced Pages project.

On the other hand, when I hit your talk page's history links (1, 2), I see over 500 deleted (not archived) comments in the last 6 months, many of them very contentious. This includes deleted warnings, blocks and comments about 3RR violations. It's not a very good faith picture. --A. B. 05:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

potential controversial

Dear Alexander,

Thanks for your reaction, Glencoe is indeed controversial even, but apparently .... But anyways thanx for your comments, I'll keep them in mind secondly, thanks for the comments made on the baron of scales, I hope someone will wikify it. Quaggga 17:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

re Dan Sperber

No problem; thanks for checking (and letting me know). It was busy last night on RC patrol. :) --EngineerScotty 16:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

re: ADARSH SAMAJ SAHYOG SAMITI

Thanks for your comments - I've also supported your views on Staxringold's talk page. -- Tivedshambo (talk) 19:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Adarsh Samaj

I've restored the page per the requests. My reason for the deletion was it does not assert any particular importance, is not wikified, and was titled in all caps (not a good sign for a "real" article). I changed the Speedy Request to a PROD and moved to a proper title. Staxringold _talk 19:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I believe PROD is very appropriate under the circumstances. --A. B. 00:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• No problem! Thanks for keeping a careful eye out as being an admin is not a sign of infallibility. Don't worry about the long message, it's always better to include everything you feel is important. I'm going to archive my talk page right now anyways (A new month seems like a good place). Staxringold _talk 02:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deletions

I've deleted your old pages. In the future if you want something that you created speedily deleted, just place {{db-author}} at the top of the page. --Pilot|guy 19:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

thanks!--A. B. 22:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Bacon to Mr. Sausage

No worries about the question, IDK why I wanted to change it, Funny I guess. The password to my account has been changed so THIS is my new account Peach12 Talk Contributions Email 21:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Bacon, sausage, peaches ... personally, I liked Mr. Sausage best. (Commodore Sausage also has a certain ring) --A. B. 22:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheddington2001

Thanks for the welcome and advice you left for me the other day.

I play no official role and I'm no administrator -- I just want to make sure a productive newcomer doesn't get tactlessly reverted or inappropriately warned. Reversions are OK if done with tact and explanation; official warnings (vandalism, etc.) should not be given when coaching would work as well.

I hope you'll consider doing the same for newcomers once you get your feet on the ground. I go to Special:New pages and look for new articles contributed by people without user pages or talk pages (i.e., red links). I look to see if the articles have merit, then if they do, I put a welcome template Misplaced Pages:Welcome template table on their talk page, add a personal comment about their article (with maybe a pointer, as I did with you) and then put both the person and the new page on my watch list for a week or so. If they get mugged or their page gets zapped, I try to help them.

One caution -- as time goes by, I've learned to be picky about who I do this for, particularly if I take on the additional effort of going to bat for someone. I want to make sure that even if it's a semi-vanity article or semi-unnoteworthy article, the author appears to be making other contributions and is genuinely interested in improving Misplaced Pages and his edits, not just making a drive-by submission of some article plugging his dry-cleaning business.

I learned this after really wasting a lot of time on this one:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/GBO Trusted Enterprise Award
• User talk:Pingfan

I even sent the guy e-mails. Compare my earnest (and naive) attempts to help with the user's own subsequent level of effort on Misplaced Pages's behalf

Anyway, thanks for the nice note!

--A. B. 18:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

...and thanks for the further comment. I look forward to helping others in due course.

{Cheddington2001 12:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)}

I need help with a PROD template

I just tried to add a PROD tag to Adarsh Samaj Sahyog Samiti and got near gibberish when shown in preview mode. Am I doing something wrong?

Here's the first thing I tried:

{{subst:prod|This article still has not been shown to meet Misplaced Pages's ]}}

Thinking the article link was the problem, I then tried:

{{subst:prod|This article still has not been shown to meet Misplaced Pages's notability standards}}

Then, I just tried the example from the template page:

{{subst:prod|reason}}

At this point I concluded I need a grown-up's help and hollered for help:

{{helpme}}

I notice the template was recently edited, so maybe the template itself is the issue. Note that I have been working exclusively in "Show preview" mode and have not saved any of these edits.

Thanks in advance for your help.
--A. B. 17:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added back in the prod tag for you. --Pilotguy 17:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Name change

FWIW, the celerity of your substitution of the new user name would be improved markedly were you to employ WP:AWB, for use of which I think you'd surely be eligible in view of your having previously accumulated the requisite edits. In any event, I'm sure someone would gladly perform the substitutions for you using AWB (I, for example, once I've downloaded the new version), but you may well be nearly done already... Joe 02:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:AWB looks like a powerful tool but unfortunately I'm using a Mac! It's one of the few times when I wish I didn't. I'll poke around and see if there's a Mac equivalent, but I don't think there is. I may take you up on your offer -- let me know if there's a time when you're in a position to do this. I have something like 250 pages left to do and it makes flossing feel exciting.--A. B. 15:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

PS "Celerity" is one of those excellent English words you never see used. It's nice to read something from such a semantically discriminating person.

von Wettin

Hi, yes I thought it were vandalism (because of the IP and the change). However, after your notice, I searched in Google and read in my German encyclopdia, if my reversion was wrong. George's surname was definitly Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (before he changed it to Windsor; see here ). Wettin was an old royal noble family, from whom the House Saxe-Coburg-Gotha descends (see here: Wettin (dynasty). It's roughly the same case with Lancaster or York and Plantagenet. So you've got right, it wasn't vandalism from User:72..., but wrong information (nonsense :-) ). Greetings and thanks for your note. Phoe 19:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Aqualand

Funny place for our paths to cross again! Please note *Aqualand Bahía de Cadiz, Andalucía was a duplicate on an invalid title (I think there may be a wiki-type markup that uses * to indicate links). I have been scrupulous in preserving every edit made by these kids. Check my deletion log. I have done four deletes all of them of unwanted titles left after I merged histories.

OK, I have not reported all my edits back to the article authors but I did leave a note at User talk:Tenerife costa adeje. -- RHaworth 19:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a lot of Aqualand articles; I was unaware of others besides the 2 for Andalusia. I certainly did not mean to seem like I was objecting to deleting non-unique articles. I just wanted to give a kid a break. Now I'm not so sure -- are these kiddy edits or something from Aqualand's PR dept.? I was unaware that there was a sudden outbreak in one day of new users all spontaneously writing childish-sounding articles about different water parks (yet not editing any other articles). Given the pattern of "coincidences", it all sounds fishy to me -- I think I've been had. Feel free to delete away as far as I'm concerned at this point. I'm glad you caught what I overlooked. At least they're not threatening murder today like our other friend from yesterday.

--A. B. 20:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You are probably right that it is spam but I shall restrict myself to noting this at talk:Aqualand. -- RHaworth 20:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

odd link

I dunno. Some weird SEO site or googlebomb of some sort. Beyond the bizarre MILF page, the rest of the content is completely unrelated to either the sexy MILF or the filipino MILF. - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- after seeing all those Cyrllic pages not visibly linked to the main page, I figured there was something shifty about it that probably had to do with search engine rankings.--A. B. 01:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Read your user page

I've been here maybe 3 weeks now, maybe 4. I've seen enough. Thanks. Ste4k 07:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Why hang on to "cult" and quibble over its meaning. I'm a fairly new editor and normally a bit timid, but tonight was my night to live dangerously and experiment with "being bold". A lot of electrons were being killed to flog this horse so I went ahead and just reworded the sentence to avoid using "cult". Those masochistically keen on minutiae can read my legalistic reasoning on the article talk page and the truly masochistic can resurrect the word and keep debating it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A. B. (talk • contribs) Oldest 19:07, 15 November 2005

I'm not originally from the U.S. I was born in Kharkov. In our country, we beat liars, and if one wants to eat, they work. The only POV in that article I wrote was that I wanted to find out the truth, did research, marked it with citations for verifiability, refused to consider any source that came from some primary provider, and all I found out for my trouble was that this encyclopedia isn't even worth quoting. You should be ashamed to have your familiy member's name on this medium. Ste4k 07:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

My response to User:Ste4k's comment above:

I decide to check out the AfD articles, not something I normally get involved in. I come to an article for deletion, "A Course in Miracles (book)". I look over it -- I see it's been documented and footnoted almost to the very last comma. I observe a tremendous argument ensuing over one word, "cult", that's being interpreted multiple ways. Multiple editors are squabbling over whether User:Ste4k is being "POV" for using it. I change the wording to eliminate the troublesome word while meeting what I see as the intent of the original author of the quote, Garrett. I think I do an adequate if not very eloquent job. I go to a lot of effort to explain what and why I made the change, citing the dictionary, etc. I do screw up and forget to sign some of my work, which Ste4k helpfully catches and fixes.

Now I wake up and I find that Ste4k has spent hours during the night sarcastically mutilating her own article. It appears that one word, "cult", and my good faith editing of its usage may have been her tipping point to go into a frenzy. That or my one vote in the AfD process. (Ste4k, if you don't like my cult edit, just reverse it and explain how I got it wrong.)

Then there's this message Ste4k left on my talk page above. What do I make of this? Is she saying that I'm a liar and should (or would) be beaten? That I should be working harder to eat? And what's this about my family?

And as for Misplaced Pages being flawed, it certainly is that. It is profoundly flawed in terms of the reliability of some of its material. In fact, if so many millions of people didn't use it, I'd say forget about it. But the fact is, Misplaced Pages is very important and growing in importance everyday. Every day, more people abandon traditional sources of reliable information such as Britannica and turn to Misplaced Pages. Every month, Misplaced Pages's Google rankings move up higher and are often in the top 5 for a given search. The fact that so many other sites such as answers.com mirror the content makes what's written in Misplaced Pages seem all the more "reliable" since to the undiscerning, it looks like other sites are agreeing with Misplaced Pages.

So like it or not, Misplaced Pages is here to stay and further grow in importance. You can fume and I can fret, but our children and grandchildren will use it more and more as their first source of knowledge, reliable or not. That almost pessimistic view of Misplaced Pages's growing role is what motivates me -- not some idealistic, Woodstockian notion that "information longs to be free" or so much of the other idealistic stuff that motivates thousands of mostly earnest, smart but very young editors on this project.

--A. B. 13:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

1. you are a timid new user.
2. Your comment about being new here and normally timid but deciding to be bold in my perspective was the worse imaginable joke I have ever heard about anyone in particular, and in particular the butt end of that joke was me.
3. the specific comment I was referring to regarding this heading "Read your user page."
4. my opinion about the entire category.
5. Ste4k 14:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

First, some context for anyone else reading this:

• A Course in Miracles -- the so-called "main" article on this movement/book/not-a-movement
• Talk:A Course in Miracles -- the very busy talk page for the main article
• A Course in Miracles (book) -- the article on the book; most of it was written by Ste4k. Refer to this article at its high points before Ste4k started tearing it back down:
  • Ste4k's last edit before mine
  • my notorious 'de-culted' version
• Talk:A Course in Miracles (book) -- in particular see the section on the "cult" language change and my 350-word analysis of the wording and explanation of my edit.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/A Course in Miracles (book)
• The "Garrett article" from which the "cult" citation came.

Ste4k, I'm still at a loss. I assumed you were not using Garrett's comment to assert that ACIM is some sort of cult. If you were, then that was more than a stretch -- it was a deliberate manipulation of Garrett's comment. (If you really were trying to distort Garrett's comment to find some sort of "verifiable" source, then I don't think you were editing in good faith and your credibility just went to zero). Instead, I just assumed everyone was stuck on one problematic word and that you were working in good faith, so I just changed the wording. That's why I am so surprised by your reaction today. Now I wonder if I was just being naive in my assumption that your goal was to just comment on the book's sales pattern; maybe you really were trying to push a POV by finding a backdoor way to work an explosive word, "cult", into a very volatile article about a spiritual movement. That's what some others seemed to worry about.

Ste4k, your reference to my comment on my user page about not biting newcomers by summarily deleting their work without comment hardly applies here. I don't see a new user who's just submitted his or her first, somewhat flawed article in good faith. I hardly see a newcomer at all when I read your contribution history for the few short weeks you've been editing Misplaced Pages -- over 2000 edits, 4 archived talk pages and extensive work in the whole AfD process across many, many nominated articles. I see a prolific, sophisticated editor exposed to all the policies, guidelines and internal processes with much more Misplaced Pages experience than I have. I see a person who has nominated multiple articles for deletion and seen them through to their (probably justified) demise. So where's this fragile newcomer that needs extra consideration?

As for item 1 in your most recent note above, I'm not sure I where my first Misplaced Pages edit that you're citing, about a relative, fits into all of this.

As for your item 2, I thought the "butt end" if there was one was the collective group of editors, not any one individual, spending multiple man-hours trying to get past this one troublesome word. It's just so very Wikipedian to get a bunch of really smart, earnest people tied up in a knot over something like this when a simple reword would fix everything to everyone's satisfaction. I'm probably as guilty of losing perspective in some other situations as this group was. Had I thought you were pushing a POV and not editing in good faith, I would have taken a very different tone. (I'm still waiting for you or someone else to calmly explain to me how my rewording did not improve this article and break a deadlock).

Ste4k, I have not set out to become your enemy or to stick a finger in your eye. I have also not seen you as my enemy, although this new dispute is rapidly getting very old and sometimes a bit weird.

Finally, I don't know how to say this without sounding patronizing, but I'll say it anyway. I noticed you have been editing virtually around the clock with 100 edits and no break even as long as 4 hours in the last 24 hours. Can you maybe take a break for a little while? I will if you will.

--A. B. 15:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Listed in the order I read them:

1. 03:52 No signature. This is the comment of someone here maybe a week. A timid new user.
2. 03:36 No signature. This is the inexperienced user being bold. hooah.
3. 04:28 signature. This is the comment of a different, very experienced user, and speaks nothing about the earlier comment.

Insults do not make enemies. They make impressions on others about the character of those who make them.

Per your comments:

1. "Delete and merge into main article." (-- Main article? These articles are on two different topics. One article was about facts that showed that there are several factions that are competing in the marketplace for product recognition all claiming the same product's name. The other article is an example of one particular faction establishing its trademark into speech on Misplaced Pages, using pattern recognition and associative psychology for it's own particular purposes. Notice carefully that the "main" article that you pointed out even has a photo of the book that is printed by one particular publisher and is silent about at least the other two that I have uncovered in my research. Notice also the frequent use of the acronym "ACIM" which isn't normally used except by this particular faction. It may as well say "ACME".
2. "Delete as POV forks any . . ." (-- Fairly timid new user that hasn't researched the topic enough to understand that these two articles are diametrically opposed, one based on fact pointing out the numerous versions of this book by different publishers, the other resorting to rhetoric and dogma to give the impression that only one specific publisher's version exists.
3. Your first edit? Shows that you have been here quite a bit longer than I have and know the ropes. (timid new user, right, npov... right gotcha. thanks for making your point instead of allowing the cited quote to stand like all other content on the page which were also verbatim except for the portions merged in. If the books under this title were notable in the first place, your suggestion about finding another source would be pertinent. Try finding a source before suggesting that one exists next time. Thanks.
4. cult? woopidy doo.

Ste4k 22:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• P.S. Read your own comments and notice how even you have begun using the "ACIM" term to refer to "all of the various factions, only one of which uses that brandname".

Ste4k 22:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

On "cult"

Hello, A. B. I appriciate your comments, and think it was good of you to go ahead and change the relevant wording at A Course in Miracles (book). I believe the discussion surrounding the word "cult" is more of a duplication of the very serious edit war that occured at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and the the ongoing debate both there and at Misplaced Pages:No original research. Most editors agree that verifiability of articles (citation of only reputable secondary sources) and that no original research in articles are two crutial factors in keeping the encyclopedia credible. A minority of editors want occasional exceptions (see the policy talk pages), and this approaches sacrilegious heresy to many others. It is because A Course in Miracles goes against this code in many places that there is such heated discussion about it. I think Ste4k's intention was to correct this glaring omission in policy to the best of her ability, and the discussion concerning this single word should be seen as a microcosm of the greater debate concerning Misplaced Pages's verifiability policies. —Antireconciler 03:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(somewhere else) You wrote: <snip> Ste4k went on to spend what appears to have been hours pouring over my edit history and user pages for inconsistencies, hypocrisy and mistakes, then bringing them out for deconstructive criticism. There's plenty of grist for her mill in my history in the way of minutiae, mistakes on my part and misinterpretations on hers, so she could be at it a while. She can keep beavering away at my many petty sins as long as she wants; it's probably a useful if annoying source of feedback on my edits. <snip> A. B. 05:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hours? when? Bringing them out for criticism? Where? When? It takes about 10 seconds to find your first edit. Make sure that what you are spreading around is the truth. You still haven't apologized for pretending to be a n00b then turning around to slap a POV "delete" on the article. Do you think I am stupid, too? I already told you that insults don't make enemies, but if you want an enemy, then you should reconsider your choice, imho. Ste4k 05:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)