Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:04, 8 July 2006

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

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Evidence presented by Andries

First assertion

First of all, I admit that I have engaged in edit warring with user:SSS108 on the article Sathya Sai Baba, but mitigating factors for this are 1. that I have seriously engaged in various forms of dispute resolution such as fruitless repetitive discussions on the talk page, requests for comments (which yielded no comments) 2. User:SSS108 aka Gerald Joe Moreno initially did not follow the very basic principles of the Misplaced Pages policies such as no original research and did understand or believe me when I tried again and again and again to explain this to him. 3. I believe that my behavior on the article Sathya Sai Baba has been significantly better in accordance with policies and certainly more constructive that of user:SSS108. After all I wrote most of the contents in the article. Andries 22:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Jossi's statement on this page

On 21:59, June 2, 2006, User:AmiDaniel blocked Andries with an expiry time of 24 hours (WP:3RR violation on Talk:Sikhism -- second offense)

that I was blocked for talk:Sikhism is unrelated to the article in question. It was related to the article guru and talk:sikhism, not to the article Sathya Sai Baba. The burden of proof that a comment is related to the article Sathya Sai Baba is on the person making this comment. I do not have to prove that a comment is unrelated to Sathya Sai BabaAndries 06:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Jossi's statement on this page

• 15:40, July 24, 2005 "I have to admit that I have been a POV pusher on the latter subject because I am an ex-cult member and I hate to be called a liar with regards to a very difficult experience of my life that I tried to tell in an accurate, factual way to others."

was related to the article apostasy. It was not related to the article Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 06:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following comments by Jossi on this page are unrelated to the article Sathya Sai Baba, but are related to the article post cult trauma. In addition I think that adding original research in the external link section is at worst a very mild violation of policies. Also, a lot of the information that I posted in the internet testimony was also published by a reasonably reputable source i.e. a broadcast by a Dutch TV news programm i.e. Tabloid on (SBS 6) in which I told my story. See a copy of the video movie in which I told my story on Dutch TV in Dutch language. . Scroll down to "Over Sai Baba in Tabloid (SBS 6)" Andries 06:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• 22:30, June 19, 2005 – Andries added: 'Calumny' Confirmed by Andries Krugers Dagneaux, 8 April 2002, ex-Sathya Sai Baba after 9 years
• 12:03, 25 Jun 2005 – Challenge by User:Tony Sidaway.

I think that the complaint by user:SSS108 on this page that I divulge personal information (i.e. his name) is very strange and I think highly exaggerated, because he lists his homepage on his user page as of 8 July 2006. In turn his homepage mentions his name as of 8 July 2006 “Looking for Joe Moreno? Joe "Gerald" Vishwarupa Moreno” “ In addition, he even reverted himself to a version on the article Sathya Sai Baba that mentions his name Andries 06:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following statement by SSS108 on this page is very misleading

"I would also like to point out that most of the "original research" that Andries complained about, that was added to the Sathya Sai Baba (henceforth referred to as "SSB") article, was not added by me but by Thaumaturgic.The reason I did not object to the "original research" taken from my site was because Andries allowed the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists taken from their sites."

First of all, SSS108 personally repeatedly re-added his original research from his website in reverts. Secondly, he reverted me (at least once and probably several times) when I wanted to remove all original research including "original research of Anti-Sai Activists". Andries 07:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following statement by user:SSS108 on this page is very misleading

"Regarding this same issue, Andries also attempted to push the link to saiguru.net (another Anti-SSB Site) which is a mirror site to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which happens to be Andries Anti-SSB website). Saiguru.net duplicates content (verbatim) taken almost exclusively from Andries website. In order to get around my complaints about Andries linking to and promoting his personal Anti-SSB website, he instead links to the saiguru.net site and says that is okay even though the content originated from his site to begin with! Therefore, all of Andries claims to complying with Misplaced Pages policies (past and present) are patently false and misleading."

First of all the website http://www.saiguru.net is not a mirror of the website http://www.exbaba.com with which I am affiliated. I started linking to http://www.saiguru.net instead of http://www.exbaba.com, because I considered it somewhat inappropriate to link to a website with which an editor is personally affiliated. I am not affiliated with http://www.saiguru.net It is maintained by another webmaster (Lionel Fernandez) than http://www.exbaba.com (Reinier van der Sandt). I do not think that I broke any Misplaced Pages policy by linking to the website http://www.saiguru.net. Andries 07:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Second assertion

Evidence presented by SSS108

First assertion

First of all, I would like to point out that Andries constantly divulges personal information about me by listing my real name on Misplaced Pages. I have asked him to desist from doing this (Ref) and (as one can see) he refuses to stop. Unlike Andries, I have not used my real name as my "wiki-name". Therefore, I request the ArbCom to ask Andries to stop divulging my full name on Misplaced Pages. It appears that either Andries (or an Anti-Sai affiliate of his) forwarded my name and misleading information about me that ended up appearing on Misplaced Pages. I discussed this on June 11th 2006 under this section and Andries has yet to deny his questionable involvement in the matters discussed therein.

I would also like to point out that most of the "original research" that Andries complained about, that was added to the Sathya Sai Baba (henceforth referred to as "SSB") article, was not added by me but by Thaumaturgic. Andries, for two years, published and promoted the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists. The reason I did not object to the "original research" taken from my site was because Andries allowed the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists taken from their sites. Thankfully, the mediation process (through BostonMA) resulted in the removal of most of the "original research" from the SSB Misplaced Pages articles (01 & 02). However, even after mediation, Andries continued to allow and cite the original research of Anti-Sai Activists.

For example, on the True-believer syndrome Misplaced Pages article (that Andries created), Andries made an edit on April 4th 2006 in which he specifically removed a "statement unsupported by references", yet failed to remove the original research from the Anti-Sai Activists and unreliable sources Tony O'Clery and Paul Holbach. Even more recently, on June 12th 2006, Andries attempted to cite the original research of Alexandra Nagel (an article which was specifically addressed in mediation with BostonMA and shown to be an un-reliable source that also constituted original research: Ref) on the List of groups referred to as cults (Ref). View the partial discussion thread that ensued. Regarding this same issue, Andries also attempted to push the link to saiguru.net (another Anti-SSB Site) which is a mirror site to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which happens to be Andries Anti-SSB website). Saiguru.net duplicates content (verbatim) taken almost exclusively from Andries website. In order to get around my complaints about Andries linking to and promoting his personal Anti-SSB website, he instead links to the saiguru.net site and says that is okay even though the content originated from his site to begin with! Therefore, all of Andries claims to complying with Misplaced Pages policies (past and present) are patently false and misleading.

• I have compiled a temporary page that provides what I consider to be compelling proof that suggests that Andries is not being entirely honest about his webmaster status on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which is the largest Anti-SSB site on the world wide web). View My Temporary Page

• I have also compiled a wiki-page that lists numerous articles in which Andries unremittingly pushes his POV. View Page On Andries Anti-SSB/Guru/Cult POV Pushing

• On March 16th 2006, BostonMA asked Andries to reconsider his answers regarding Premanand's credibility (which called into question Andries ability to distinguish between partisonship and NPOV: Ref). Needless to say, Andries ignored BostonMA's comments and refused to change his position on Premanand (Ref). BostonMA also took difference with Andries attempts to link his article (True-believer syndrome) to the SSB article (Ref) and expressed the opinion that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and it appeared that Andries's edits were to convince people of the merits of his favorite views.

• And is if this isn't enough to make my case that Andries is acting contrary to good faith, a controversial edit regarding Jens Sethi (going back to April 22nd 2006, which was a point to be mediated by BostonMA before he left on May 6th 2006: Ref), was edited back into the SSB Misplaced Pages article today itself (July 7th 2006), by Andries (Ref), without discussion, agreement or forewarning.

My disagreements with Andries edits are numerous and I foresee that this section will be edited with more proof when I find the time to research the controversial edits more in depth. Thank you. SSS108 04:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Second assertion

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion, for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks". Here you would list specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.

Evidence presented by Jossi

work in progress ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Andries was blocked twice in the last four months for 3RR on related articles

• On 21:59, June 2, 2006, User:AmiDaniel blocked Andries with an expiry time of 24 hours (WP:3RR violation on Talk:Sikhism -- second offense).

In response to Andries rebuttal about this block, note that the revert war was related to the Guru article.

• On 17:10, April 22, 2006, User:Freakofnurture blocked Andries with an expiry time of 24 hours (WP:3RR violation on Sathya Sai Baba)

SSS108 was blocked once for edit warring

• 17:11, April 22, 2006 User:Freakofnurture blocked SSS108 with an expiry time of 24 hours (disruptive edit warring on Sathya Sai Baba.)

Andries admits to being a POV pusher on related subjects

• 15:40, July 24, 2005 "I have to admit that I have been a POV pusher on the latter subject because I am an ex-cult member and I hate to be called a liar with regards to a very difficult experience of my life that I tried to tell in an accurate, factual way to others."

Andries adds his own original research about Sathya Sai Baba to external links section of related article

• 22:30, June 19, 2005 – Andries added: 'Calumny' Confirmed by Andries Krugers Dagneaux, 8 April 2002, ex-Sathya Sai Baba after 9 years
• 12:03, 25 Jun 2005 – Challenge by User:Tony Sidaway.

Evidence presented by {your user name}

First assertion

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion, for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring". Here you would list specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring

Second assertion

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion, for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks". Here you would list specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.