Misplaced Pages

:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration | Requests Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 08:24, 27 September 2014 editUnbroken Chain (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers32,193 edits notifying neotarf← Previous edit Revision as of 08:25, 27 September 2014 edit undoUnbroken Chain (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers32,193 edits →Clarification request: CASE/SexologyNext edit →
Line 13: Line 13:
''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:'' ''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Hell in a Bucket}} (initiator) *{{userlinks|Hell in a Bucket}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Neotarf}} ] notified
*{{userlinks|Neotarf}}


<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. <!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator.
Line 34: Line 34:
* *
---- ----

== Clarification request: Sexology (TParis) == == Clarification request: Sexology (TParis) ==
'''Initiated by ''' v/r - ]] '''at''' 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC) '''Initiated by ''' v/r - ]] '''at''' 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:25, 27 September 2014

Shortcut Arbitration Committee proceedings Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Palestine-Israel articles 5 (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 21 Dec 2024 11 Jan 2025
Recently closed cases (Past cases)

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Clarification and Amendment requests
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: CASE/Sexology none (orig. case) 27 September 2014
Clarification request: Sexology (TParis) none (orig. case) 12 September 2014
Amendment request: Waldorf education Motion (orig. case) 12 September 2014
Clarification request: Sexology none (orig. case) 1 September 2014
Clarification request: Rich Farmbrough none (orig. case) 25 August 2014
Amendment request: American Politics (Dinesh D'Souza films) none (orig. case) 23 August 2014
Arbitrator motions
Motion name Date posted
Arbitrator workflow motions 1 December 2024

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)

  1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
  2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
  3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
Clarification and Amendment archives
123456789101112131415161718
192021222324252627282930313233343536
373839404142434445464748495051525354
555657585960616263646566676869707172
737475767778798081828384858687888990
919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108
109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126
127128129130131

Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Guidance on participation and word limits

Unlike many venues on Misplaced Pages, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.

  • Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
  • In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
  • Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
  • Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-l@lists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
    • Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
  • Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
  • Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using ~~~~).
  • Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
  • Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
  • Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.

General guidance

Shortcuts:
Clarification and Amendment archives
123456789101112131415161718
192021222324252627282930313233343536
373839404142434445464748495051525354
555657585960616263646566676869707172
737475767778798081828384858687888990
919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108
109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126
127128129130131

Clarification request: CASE/Sexology

Initiated by Hell in a Bucket (talk) at 08:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Sexology arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Statement by {Hell in a Bucket}

] Discretional sanctions specifically apply to self identifying transgender individuals, in this case Tutelary is a transgendered individual and the comment saying that they are claiming to be a woman does violate that remedy. Also if you look at the issue of ] which resulted in a topic ban after findings of fact which noted comments ] identical to what was stated on ANI. The views at Arb Enforcement is that this is not article related therefore unactionable, I believe that the remedy includes treatment of "any" transgender person. Does this remedy only apply to BLP articles or editors as well? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Statement by {other user}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

CASE/DECISION: Arbitrator views and discussion

Clarification request: Sexology (TParis)

Initiated by v/r - TP at 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Case or decision affected
Sexology arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive264#Request_warning_to_be_expunged

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by TParis

Statement by Sandstein

The four editors who commented in that section supported TParis's appeal, which in most Misplaced Pages discussions would constitute a consensus in favor of their position. But I don't really have any basis on which to form an opinion one way or the other about whether they were uninvolved editors (for whichever meaning of "uninvolved" the Committee may have intended), or whether this relatively limited degree of participation constitutes the "clear and substantial consensus" of uninvolved participants required to sustain an appeal.

On the merits, despite the disagreement of these other editors, I remain of the view that an editor who misbehaves in an AE discussion concerning a topic covered by discretionary sanctions is, themselves, subject to the discretionary sanctions authorized for that topic area, and that the warning at issue (meant as the mildest possible sanction, and not to be confused with a no-longer-loggable alert) was therefore correctly logged.

Moreover, to the extent that the sanction was also in application of WP:AC/DS#Decorum, this case raises the question of whether and where sanctions authorized by that provision should be logged.

While I don't have strong feelings about any of these questions, some clarification with respect to any of them might be helpful for future cases.  Sandstein  19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Salvio giuliano: I appreciate the feedback. In this case, though, I consider that my action was appropriate to the misconduct at issue. Indeed, a brief block might have been preferable, also in view of the fact that TParis is an administrator, about the conduct of which the community tends to have higher, not lower, expectations. Of course, such appreciations are a question of individual judgment and temperament, and it is therefore to be expected that different people will come to different conclusions. But the mere fact that my appreciation of the situation doesn't match yours doesn't mean that I didn't exercise my best judgment and common sense. If the ArbCom delegates discretionary sanctions authority to individual administrators, it must accept that they will come to conclusions that may differ from those of individual arbitrators in any given case. Otherwise you'd be better off doing the job yourselves.  Sandstein  15:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Newyorkbrad: If the Arbitration Committee concludes that TParis's appeal to AN was successful, or if the Committee itself undoes the warning on appeal, then I certainly accept that. But as I have said, I am of the view that the warning was appropriate. Therefore I don't quite understand what it is that you would like me to do.  Sandstein  13:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

Arbcom, please don't create any new procedures or any new logs for decorum warnings. The existing ones are working. TParis has argued that the warning to him was logged in the wrong place, but I disagree. If there was to be a warning at all under WP:AC/DS#Decorum, surely it should be added to the log of whatever Arbcom case the complaint was brought under. In my opinion Arbcom should treat this request from TParis as though it was an arbitration enforcement appeal. On that basis, Arbcom has jurisdiction to grant the request if it wants to (without being worried that it is interfering with the closure of the AN thread he filed). Another way to handle this would have been for TParis to file an arbitration enforcement appeal at WP:AE. If that had been done, I'd probably vote to grant the appeal and remove the logged warning. EdJohnston (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Sexology (TParis): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I have reviewed the discussion on the noticeboard, including Sandstein's detailed comments there. On the substance of the request, while I understand Sandstein's technical points, on balance I fully agree with TParis that it is unreasonable and misleading for him to be listed as a DS-warned party under either the Manning decision and/or the Sexology decision. (This obviously doesn't mean I condone calling editors "morons," and I'm glad TParis understands that the term was inappropriate.) I also agree with TParis that the discussion on AN has reached a consensus in his favor on this issue. ¶ As a matter of DS procedure, the appeal-to-AN alternative would ordinarily call for assessment of consensus on the noticeboard itself by an uninvolved administrator, rather than by the Committee. However, due to a lull in the AN discussion it aged off the active AN board and into the archive, and I think it would be excessively wikibureaucratic to insist that the thread be pulled from the archive back onto AN so that an administrator can close it with the obvious result. ¶ With respect to Sandstein's inquiry concerning whether 4 editors is sufficient for consensus, I would say it depends on what is being discussed. If the subject of the discussion were a site-ban, participation by 4 editors would be woefully insufficient. In this instance, though, given the limited nature of the sanction and the fact that everyone who wanted to discuss it had an opportunity to do so, I believe there is sufficient basis for an outcome—particularly when the alternative would not be to declare the appeal unsuccessful, but to reopen the discussion in either the same or a different venue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree that we don't need to create a new logging location; we should just drop the warning that was given, as being unnecessary. I would appreciate if Sandstein would just accept this outcome so we can close this request out, as otherwise, unnecessary additional time will be spent on what everyone seems to agree is a very minor matter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • In general, I agree with Sandstein that edits to an AE thread are covered by the underlying discretionary sanctions. However, and I find myself repeating this, the administrators manning the AE noticeboard need to use their best judgment and common sense when determing what the most appropriate course of action is in any given case. Here, TParis' use of the word "morons" was inappropriate; redacting the insult was a good idea as was leaving a note on his talk page, urging him to be more civil. What was an overreaction was making it a big deal, by logging the warning on the relevant case page like a discretionary sanction. After all, this was an isolated case of incivility and was not part of a pattern – at least, from my experience. Those who commented during the AN discussion reached the correct conclusion, in my opinion; and, while 4 people is a bit on the low side for these things, I agree with Brad that for the purpose of determining the number of people required to overturn a sanction, its severity should be taken into account (also, those commenting were, if I'm not mistaken, entirely uninvolved, which partly makes up for their small number). So, for all these reasons, I think the warning should be removed from the log. Also, in my personal capacity, I'd like renew my request to Sandstein to please be less heavy-handed in future and to first consider talking to the other editor as a person, instead of reaching immediately for his DS quiver. Salvio 09:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • While I also don't endorse the "morons" comment, I agree with Salvio and Newyorkbrad. Seraphimblade 01:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I think Sandstein's warning was within the letter of the proverbial law, I'm not sure it was an ideal course of actions, per those above. Removal from the log would likely be ideal. In this case although a block would also have likely been within the letter, I don't think it would bevery consistent with the general actions taken against users/administrators that use such language, especially because of his willingness to redact. NativeForeigner 06:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I thought I wrote before, but clearly not. TParis, your comment was inappropriate - especially so in the forum it was written. It's hard enough to enforce arbitration decisions, without having to worry about decorum issues. That said, I don't believe it needed a formal warning and it certainly shouldn't be logged there. I don't see that the warning needed to be "logged" at all - in future, if an admin is being troublesome at AE, take to Arbcom - who can have a quiet word. At any rate, I believe the warning should be removed, and it appears that the community consensus (though of a small number of editors) agrees with that. Worm(talk) 07:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Amendment request: Waldorf education

Initiated by - Penwhale | at 04:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Case affected
Waldorf education arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t) (specifically its review, Waldorf education/Review arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t))
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 1 and 1.1 of the Review, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education#Pete_K_banned and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education#Pete_K_ban_clarified
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
  • As the Pete K has not edited using his account since 2007, there is no good way to log it. I will instead post the link to this in a section in which Pete K has started on my talk page.
  • A13ean notified
  • Hgilbert notified
Information about amendment request
  • Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested:
  • Details of desired modification
  • Update them to standard topic-bans (so it can be more easily logged under editing restrictions, which will satisfy Pete K's request to remove template messages on article talk pages that states that he is prohibited from editing said articles)

Statement by Penwhale

Back in March 2007, I placed a template on Talk:Waldorf education as part of the requirement when an editor was banned from contributing on articles. The wording at the time allowed Pete K to contribute to the talk page, until a later motion (Remedy 1.1) also limited Pete K's ability to edit the talk page.

Nonetheless, it is unfortunately clear that Pete K may have missed the additional restriction, and recently has taken to both Talk:Waldorf education as well as my talk page to rant about both his inability to edit the talk page as well as the template message on top of the Waldorf education talk page. I believe the best solution would be to modify Remedy 1 and 1.1 of the Review to use the current TBAN wording; this way, the templates could in theory be removed since there will be a centralized place to log the edit restrictions.

As a side note, back in 2012 A13ean (talk · contribs) asked me whether the templates could be removed; I agreed that it could be commented out; however, it was restored before the end of the year by Hgilbert (talk · contribs). - Penwhale | 04:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by a13ean

Sounds fine to me. I asked if the template could be removed because at the time Pete K had not edited for several years, although he resumed editing shortly thereafter using an IP. a13ean (talk) 17:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by {other user}

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Waldorf education: Arbitrator views and discussion

Motion: Pete K restrictions changed to standard topic ban

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Majority reference
Abstentions Support votes needed for majority
0 6
1–2 5
3–4 4

Proposed:

Remedies 1 and 1.1 in the Waldorf education case (Pete K banned/Pete K ban clarified) are stricken. In lieu of these remedies, the following restriction is enacted: Pete K is topic banned indefinitely from the subject of Waldorf education, broadly construed. Enforcement of this provision shall be per the enforcement provisions in the Waldorf education case and shall be logged at the same case page. This restriction may be appealed to the Committee no less than one year from the date it is enacted, and if such appeal is unsuccessful no less than one year after the decline of the most recent failed appeal.

Support
  1. Seraphimblade 21:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  2. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  3. Salvio 00:15, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  4. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 19:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  5. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
  6. NativeForeigner 06:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  7. Worm(talk) 07:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
Abstain
Comments by arbitrators

Clarification request: Sexology

Initiated by EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} at 20:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Case or decision affected
Sexology arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Statement by EvergreenFir

There have been on-and-off discussions on Talk:Radical feminism since April 2014 regarding the acronym "TERF" (which stands for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists"). Specifically there is disagreement whether or not the term should be considered a slur and thus not used on talk pages in any other context other than the acronym itself or its use by others vis-a-vis the content of the article. Carolmooredc first posted about it on the RadFem article and on WP:XX in April of this year asking users not to use it. Since then there have been various conversations about it here, here, and here. Most recent discussion (seen in the last two links in the previous sentence) has been around asking the ARBCOM to clarify if this acronym constitutes a slur and would thus be under the purview of the Sexology decision regarding transgender issues.

For clarity, it is my personal view that the acronym does not constitute a slur as it is only viewed as such by those it refers to. It is not the same as other widely recognized slurs such as this and this. I have described my views more clearly in the linked talk page discussions above.

This is my first time at ARBCOM so I apologize if any of this is improperly formatted or otherwise incorrect.

Statement by Tutelary

Hello. This is also my first arbitration case request so please bare with me if I am not keen on all of the formatting and the rules. But, in my view, this dispute is stemming from the fact that one or two editors feel the need to attribute TERF as a slur. I do not share this view, because it's the exact opposite of a slur. It's an acronym describing a subset of Radical feminism that do not accept trans* folk at all. The reasoning on how this is a slur also baffles me. The fact that some people use it in threatening emails? Well, if we attribute that to being a slur, then we'd also open our doors to everything be a slur, because threatening emails will be threatening regardless of the terminology used. We also don't generally involve ourselves into off wiki disputes. It is of point that it is a useful term to describe the group of radical feminists who don't support trans people. That's all it's being used for on the talk, and that's all it will ever be used for it. It falls incredibly short of being a slur anyways, like Evergreen pointed out the two examples; 'nigger' and 'tranny'. Those terms are made to inflame and insult, this one is made to describe a group and their general POV; like Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. I feel that Arbitration clarification request is the acceptable method for clarification because otherwise it's just 'X says its a slur' and 'Y says that it isn't' and generally gets all muddy and filthy. A clarification would be greatly appreciated. Tutelary (talk) 21:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by olive

This is a behaviour issue but solutions may be dependent on whether the acronym is a slur. Both can be decided by the community in general. If something makes another editor feel uncomfortable then I do wish that we drop it, a very easy way to avoid hurt and contention. Doing so seems to be the deeper sense of what civility is. Not an arbcom issue.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC))

Statement by TParis

As I said in the Manning naming dispute Arbcom case, whether something is a slur or not depends on the CONTEXT it is used in - and I'm not sure I can emphasize that enough. We need to quit acting like children on here with no concept of dimension and a two sided construct of language. A word cannot be offensive or nonoffensive. How the word is used can be. That's what matters. Each case must be evaluated on it's individual merits. If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word. If someone said "The fuck do we care what you think, TERF?" That's offensive. It's simple. CONTEXT!--v/r - TP 22:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbcom case not needed - only clue and maturity are required here.

Statement by SPECIFICO

The word refers to a well defined, real-world phenomenon, and it is appropriately-sourced. The talk page controversy arose when one editor vowed to go immediately to Arbcom. This seemed to imply a threat of sanctions against editors who did not accede to her insistence that the word was used as a slur and her demand that it be removed from the article. SPECIFICO talk 23:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I have not seen any editor use the word to describe or address another editor on WP. We're discussing article content only. Any reference to personal attacks should be supported by a link, otherwise let's not confuse things with red herrings and straw women arguments. SPECIFICO talk 01:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Carolmooredc

Given the Sexology and Bradley Manning arbitrations, I was seeking clarification on what to do about this issue at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests#Not_sure_if_clarification_or_enforcement_issue. (Note: Issue being loose use of it on the web page to refer to specific individuals or groups of radical feminists in an obviously negative fashion, or any potential use against other editors; removing properly sourced information on the term has not been an issue.) Advice there to bring it to ANI seems sensible. I think an intelligent discussion of the WP:RS calling it a slur and a dozen or so examples of how the term is used to insult and threaten women, if shared at WP:ANI, would clarify the issue for the community. However, if it does seem that this issue belongs here, that information can be shared here. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I was wondering what is happening with this clarification. I just saw this revert with the edit summary "Hungerford is a prominent radfem and terf)" and the relevant sentence was "The term is considered a slur by those at whom it is directed, such as Elizabeth Hungerford." Because some arbitrators here seemed to think it only should not be used against editors, perhaps the editor here thought it was OK to use against living persons, including those who have received threats which often use that term. FYI, Hungerford writes about being "gender critical." So some real clarification here needed. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
For the record, here are other refs calling TERF a slur or an insult (some mention the "gender critical" alternative description):
  • New Yorker “those at whom it is directed consider it a slur.” (This article and term mentioned at the Federalist.com.
  • Village Voice “a label the feminists consider a slur .”
  • American Conservative titles article: "Radical Feminism & The TERF War"
  • National Journal mentions that the female congressional staffer who recently vandalized Misplaced Pages's Laverne Cox article discussed her dislike of the TERF accusation.
  • Counterpunch: “Make no mistake, this is a slur. TERF is not meant to be explanatory, but insulting.”(2013) and later described it as one of several “epithets”(2014).
  • Bitch magazine describes a feminist who “considers a slur” the term TERF.
  • A few of the many personal sites where women discuss the term as being a slur and insult against feminists and women who don't support every jot and tittle of the transgender ideology: , , , .
If I see what I think are abuses of WP:BLP, even if no editors are abused, I can bring the issue to the appropriate forum. It's always an educational discussion. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

According to this article in the Huffington Post, TERF refers to feminists who are transphobic or otherwise discriminate against trans-gender people. Thus, TERFs could arguably meet the definition of a hate group. So, the use of this term to refer to Misplaced Pages editors could very-well violate WP:NPA and it could violate WP:BLP to refer to a living person unless very robustly sourced. However, it does appear to be the term used in general for anti-trans feminists and thus can be used in that context in the applicable articles. Cla68 (talk) 00:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Neotarf

After pursuing the meaning of this through the internet for better than an hour, I have come up with this explanation. Some individuals, who Arnold Schwarzenegger might term as "lady-boys", and who have male chromosomes and male genitals, want to use female toilets. Also women's sleeping areas and women's prisons. The reason for this is that they believe gender is social. They say anyone who does not agree with them is trying to deprive them of their rights, and is filled with "hate and exclusion". They loathe women almost as much as they loathe their own bodies, and as a result of believing they have become women, they spend a lot of time on "men's rights" forums trying to enforce strict gender roles and telling women how to act as women. I'm sure I have missed some nuance of this, and that someone will come by and set me straight on some of the detail, but this is definitely a thing. Anyone who resists strict gender roles is deemed a "terf", as in "kill terfs", which according to this New Yorker article, has become a common internet threat.

The two terms mentioned by the OP as being "widely recognized slurs" are no such thing , but we can certainly add all of these terms to those that do not belong on the talk pages of Misplaced Pages. That this term was used by an IP, and not a signed-in user, kind of speaks for itself.

@TParis: If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word. I'm just not buying it that (in a similar construction) it's okay to say "From the faggot perspective..." or "From the slut perspective..." as long as you don't say "Die, faggot" or "Die, slut". I'm just not buying it; this is offensive. At the very least, this is a gross misrepresentation of someone's views.
@Cla68: the Huffington piece cited is not a neutral "article" but a blog opinion piece by Kelsie Brynn Jones, a LGBT activist and movie producer.

Comment by Sceptre

This is an issue way out of any remit of the community or ArbCom, because it's off-wiki drama spilling in, basically, so we can't really make a decision that doesn't affect how we talk about content. That said, from a personal perspective, I tend to view with suspicion anyone who says the phrase "TERF is a slur", because the people who say that tend to have a demonstrable history of transphobia. For example, one of the people cited in the article, Elizabeth Hungerford, wrote a letter to the UN two years ago stating that legislative protections for trans people are "a violation of the human rights of women. What I've noticed, off-wiki, is that people who say the term is a slur never actually say why it's a slur. The term is more comparable to "Tory" or "liberal" than "nigger" or "tranny". On the question of content: transphobic radical feminism is a fringe view even of radical feminism, and anti-transgender perspectives should be given according weight. Sceptre 14:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by {other user}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I'll repeat what I wrote on the talk page. This isn't something ArbCom needs to deal with, in my opinion. If the term TERF is being used as a personal attack, then the person using it in that fashion may, depending on the circumstances, be sanctioned, but I have seen nothing proving that the community is not capable of dealing with this issue. Also, as far as I know, that the expression is a slur is not the current consensus. Dave Giuliano 20:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • This really isn't an ArbCom decision, as it's too close to the "content". The community has the ability to make a decision on whether the term is a slur - and I believe TParis has rather got the point, context is key. If the intent is to use it as a slur, then the user should face consequences. If not and offence is being caused, at most a quiet word might be helpful. If the quiet word doesn't help, grit your teeth and move on, remember offence can only be taken, not given. Worm(talk) 09:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • In my view, the crux of the problem is not the fact that an acronym is being used, but the use of characterizations such as "trans-exclusionary" and "radical," which may be problematic individually and doubly so in combination. Is there a way of saying what one wants to say without turning up the heat in this manner? I agree this is not an ArbCom matter in and of itself, but I must say that some of the user conduct that underlay the original Sexology case was among the worst I've seen in my 8 years on Misplaced Pages, and the whole subject goes to the heart of how many people perceive themselves and their identities—so I'd urge editors in this area to be especially sensitive to one another's feelings and perceptions, especially when this can be done without compromising straightforward communications. Newyorkbrad (talk) 07:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think ArbCom can say "this term is offensive or a personal attack", because what constitutes a PA or incivility is as always a community norm ; my gut feeling is that if the term is contentious, it really shouldn't be used outside of where it is justified (i.e., in the encyclopedic coverage of what sources say on the main page, and in discussion of that content, not contributors, on talk pages.) I think that with the encyclopedia's general guidance on avoiding personal attacks and fostering a collaborative atmosphere using labels is not going to help our aims. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 12:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It is not up to the Arbitration Committee to determine whether a specific term is offensive or not (thankfully—that would make for quite a case...) I agree with David that the best approach would be to avoid using contentious terms to refer to other editors, and editors should be cautious when using them in an encyclopedic context. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Broadly agreed with GorillaWarfare. It might be necessary to use terms that would normally be offensive when discussing encyclopedic content, but needlessly inflammatory language should be avoided when referring to other editors. Regardless, we can't make a list of words that it would always or never be appropriate to use; context always matters. Seraphimblade 01:06, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Clarification request: Rich Farmbrough

Initiated by Fram (talk) at 08:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Case or decision affected
Rich Farmbrough arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Link to relevant decision: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough#Clarifications by motion

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Statement by Fram

Rich Farmbrough has editing restrictions, one stating that he is "indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Misplaced Pages. For the purposes of this remedy, any edits that reasonably appear to be automated shall be assumed to be so." and another that "Regardless of the editing method (i.e. manual, semi-automatic, or automatic; from any account), Rich Farmbrough is indefinitely prohibited from mass creating pages in any namespace, unless prior community approval for the specific mass creation task is documented."

One of the causes of these restrictions was the mass creation of script-generated biographies taken from the Dictionary of National Biography on Wikisource (see ], which was also at the start of my evidence on the RF arbcom case).

Now, RF has created many more similar pages (same method, same problems) at Wikisource, and is actively looking for people to import these to Misplaced Pages, if possible by bot or script. His script adds very little of value to the existing Wikisource pages: an extremely rudimentary infobox, bolding of the page title, some seemingly random wikilinks (sometimes none at all), birth and death year cats, and (the only thing of potential value IMO) the references used by the DNB article presented in a Misplaced Pages-style at the end of the article. The pages he creates are taken from all kinds of Wikisource transcriptions, not all verified for correctness (of transcription, this is not about factual correctness).

Evidence of same kind of problems (examples, not exhaustive at all):

Note also that every page starts with {{subst:Quick infobox|..., but there is no Template:Quick infobox.

As for evidence that he believes these pages are ready to be imported, that he is actively recruiting people to serve as proxies to circumvent his restrictions, and that speed is the defining characteristic for his creations and the manner he uses:

  • s:Category:DNB drafts states since its creation on 16 August 2014: "These pages are drafts ready to be copied into Misplaced Pages at your peril."
  • His first statement on this, at the DNB project page, stated in part: "I will be creating draft article in my userspace on Wikisource. Anyone can feel free to let me know of issues, or to import the articles to Misplaced Pages, as they are of course, copyright free and attributed. If you have the rights you might consider an export-import solution." (bolding mine)
  • Correcting his drafts on Wikisource is no use
  • Need more articles? You'll get them fast!
  • Many are done (no indication which ones):
  • At another project, he is more cautious, but still advocating the "quick win" of importing his articles (when, as seen above, it would be more useful to simply import the original wikisource page, if people want a page that needs a lot of work still).

I had put a note on the project talk page to raise my concerns. The response speaks volumes.

Considering the April 2014 clarification issued by the Committee that "Accordingly, Rich Farmbrough is warned that the committee is likely to take a severe view of further violations, and may consider replacing his automation restriction with a site ban.", I would suggest that enough is enough, and simply siteban him for continuously trying to circumvent or violate his restrictions, and for basically not learning anything from his previous mistakes and the discussions and blocks surrounding them. Nothing less, including his last one-year block, seems to make any difference. A siteban won't stop him working on Wikisource, but it will at least stop the active recruitment on Misplaced Pages of editors to proxy for him. Fram (talk) 08:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Addendum: as an indication of the scale of the errors in his drafts: I noted above an article where he had changed Frisingen to FrisinGenesis. This was apparently a remnant of a completely unrelated task, where he auto-expanded some abbreviations to the full Bible Book name. He has now corrected these in his DNB drafts (which is good in itself), which gives an idea of the number of errors (and the fact that my list above was just the tip of the iceberg):
  • Expanding "gen" to "Genesis":
  • Expanding "ez" to "Ezekiel":
  • Changing "john" to "John":
  • Expanding "dan" to "Daniel":

After this was done, he did another run on the articles, changing "thither" to "there". Seven articles were changed, one incorrectly though, as "thither" was part of a title in that one, so the change made the article less correct, and would be hard to detect afterwards. Fram (talk) 18:08, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: I don't care what he does on Wikisource, as long as he doesn't try to find people to import these pages here as a way to circumvent his restrictions here. My links to Wikisource are only used to show that the pages are problematic. My request here is about his actions here. Fram (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

@AGK: I don't really understand your statement about an "alleged import"; I have provided multiple piecees of evidence that Rich wants people to import these to Misplaced Pages: the category at Wikisource claims that they are ready to be copied into Misplaced Pages, this link is a section he started, called importing articles, where he specifically states "If you have the rights you might consider an export-import solution.", and elsewhere he also promotes bringing his drafts to Misplaced Pages as a "quick win". So it is obvious that he has already tried to "crowdsource" his automation, as you put it, and that he wants (or certainly wanted) these to be imported swiftly and preferably en masse. That no one so far has acted upon this (as far as I know) doesn't mean that he hasn't tried to breach the sanctions in this way, only that he was unsuccessful. The "proxying", brought up by others, is a red herring in that regard, as I am not seeking any sanctions against other editors, even if someone would have imported one of these. This request is only about the behaviour of Rich Farmbrough. He now claims that "I have never suggested using a bot or script to import the items, and indeed I would strongly disagree with doing that en masse, as it would break the proposed workflow."; I wonder how he reconciles this with his preferred "export-import solution" for someone with "the rights". I hope that, contrary to earlier ArbCom proceedings, he will actually explain what he intended, and not simply dismiss evidence without any justification for it. Note also this: "As to importing, of course they would not be bulk imported to article space, but to my user namespace by default, or the project namespace by choice, which would create no issues for anyone, except to make mass updating difficult." This not only contradicts his advice to the gender project, but also would still violate his restrictions on mass creating articles, which clearly states that he is "indefinitely prohibited from mass creating pages in any namespace". Fram (talk) 06:58, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

About Rich Farmbroughs comment (or "preliminary statement"). Most seems rather irrelevant, I'll stick to a few points.

  • "one's off-site edits microscopically examined for typographical inaccuracies," is the usual ignoration of his own errors, which are much more fundamental than "typographical inaccuracies", as evidenced above. This blindness to the problems with his scripts and its results, and the lack of control of the results of his script runs, are the root cause of the problems and restrictions. Furthermore, these are "off-site edits" made with the explicit goal to get them on-site, not something that would remain off-site.
  • "The advantage of using the import function, as I understand it, is that it allows attribution to be maintained, and a consistent edit summary of the import itself is used." The import function is not even available to copy pages from Wikisource, see e.g. Misplaced Pages:Requests for page importation.
  • "No proxy editing is taking place here, and none has been proposed." But it clearly has been asked. No one has taken up the proxying, but that is not under discussion here. The problem is that you were looking for proxy editors to get your deficient script-created pages on Misplaced Pages, since you are restricted from doing so yourself. You have not explained how this is not an attemmpt to get around your restriction by recruiting others.
  • "To keep these projects in the dark about a possible resource would be unkind, unproductive and unwiki." No, to present your already banned script-created contributions to these projects as if they are positive, welcome contributions is unkind and unproductive. You could have just pointed e.g. the gender group to Wikisource, and indicated that there are a lot of DNB entries there that have been proofread, which can be copied over and turned into articles with some work. You could have provided them with a list on Wikisource of such pages, I wouldn't care and it would in no way violate your retrictions if you had done that. But you just had to use your already condemned scripts there and invite people to use your versions (no matter if they started from proofread pages or not, no matter if they introduced errors not in the original Wikisource page or not). And that is the problem and the reason I filed this. Fram (talk) 06:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade. I don't really get this, you seem to be basically syaing that if someone has restrictions here, they are free to try to circumvent them and find other editors to help them continue their problematic editing? Doesn't that make the restrictions rather toothless? Fram (talk) 07:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@PBS: Both. Restrictions are not "don't do this unless your edits are good", they are "don't do this"; but in this case, as I presented in my opening statement, the edits still present the same or very similar problems as the earlier ones had, so I don't believe using them would be a net benefit either (I don't think using the RF versions will make it any faster to present decent articles compared to starting from the standard Wikisource pages, and the chances are considerable that they will introduce additional errors not present in those Wikisource pages, like in some of the examples above). Fram (talk) 16:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

In the interests of collegial working, and to save everyone's time, I would appreciate guidance form the Committee, as to whether they would like a point-by-point commentary on the above, a general statement, or, indeed, whether it is not worth responding to. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC).

I have drafted a statement which I will post later tonight or tomorrow, once I have removed or reduced those points that Kim has already made more ably than I.

I will just point out, for the record this absurd statement of Fram's, which I had missed amongst the cruft (I may later incorporate it into my general statement:

is actively looking for people to import these to Misplaced Pages, if possible by bot or script.

This is quite simply a chimera. I have never suggested using a bot or script to import the items, and indeed I would strongly disagree with doing that en masse, as it would break the proposed workflow.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:01, 26 August 2014 (UTC).

Preliminary statement

1. Scope

I address only the substantive point made relating to English Misplaced Pages. While it is doubtless flattering to have one's off-site edits microscopically examined for typographical inaccuracies, it is not something I will address here, except to point out that I had explicitly invited Fram to report and discuss them, if he should desire, as indicated at WP:DNB.

:You are still welcome to proof-read or validate any of the pages in DNB, and if you let me know I will re-create their drafts, where appropriate. And you can add here any issues you discover which appear to be new.

2. History
2. a) "The Dictionary of National Biography (DNB) is a standard work of reference on notable figures from British history" and "many of the longer entries are still highly regarded", it covers tens of thousands of people from legendary figures from the mists of time, up to the the early years of the twentieth century, when the supplementary volumes are taken into account. Due to the publication dates the text is in the public domain. These texts, therefore, form a good potential starting point for Misplaced Pages articles. Over the last decade a small group of dedicated volunteers, lead by the redoubtable Charles Matthews have been working on creating a proofread version of the DNB on Wikisource with the express aim (although not the sole aim) of having the material available for Misplaced Pages. In parallel a very great number of Misplaced Pages articles have been created for the same subjects, sometimes based upon the DNB material, sometimes partially so, and sometimes from completely different sources (although these are often derived in whole or part from DNB).

A WikiProject DNB was set up on the 10th of September 2010, I joined on the 14th. The DNB project exists solely to bring information, sometimes in the form of new articles, from the DNB into WP. It is a child project of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles WikiProject DNB was broadly supportive of the previous automated creation of drafts on WP.

2. b) The "Gender Gap Taskforce" is a taskforce of the Sytemic Bias WikiProject, set up on the 13th of May 2013. It is active on other aspects of systemic gender bias than the Gender Gap, despite its name, for example Afd, categories and missing articles. I have been active there since the 4th of August, shortly after the taskforce saw a resurgence in activity, and had commented elsewhere on the subject of main discussion of 2013, category "ghettoization". I have previously produced lists of missing articles (and provided other, mainly technical, assistance) the Women's History project. I have also made a list of 187 women environmentalists (that I cannot share with fellow Wikipedians, except by providing a link to the off-wiki list), and have slowly been creating articles on notable women leaders form Wesleyan movements.

3. Proposed use
There was never any suggestion of automated import of these drafts as I have outlined above. You can clearly see that a 'manual process is suggested at the Gender Gap Taskforce, that implies individual articles need to be created and worked upon.

The advantage of using the import function, as I understand it, is that it allows attribution to be maintained, and a consistent edit summary of the import itself is used. I made it clear, when Fram raised the issue of import that bulk importing would "make mass updating difficult." Had Fram the slightest concept of how the process of continual improvement works, he would have realised that bulk import by any means is anathema to my goals, at least while I am unable to work effectively upon the English Misplaced Pages.

Moreover it is clear that the drafts are not ready for article space as noticed to the DNB project, so any bulk import there would be a bad idea.

4. Warnings given

4. a. Caveat: ... You remain responsible for your own edits.

4. b. These pages are drafts ready to be copied into Misplaced Pages at your peril.

Note that the WikiProject DNB members tend to be experienced editors who know that they are responsible for their own edits.

Members of both projects clearly have their own reason to create these articles. (See, Bruning, Kim: 2014)

5. Conclusions
No proxy editing is taking place here, and none has been proposed. Assistance is being offered to two projects I am already involved with, and which have aims in line with my own: to wit, creating missing articles on notable women, adding missing articles on notable Britons. To keep these projects in the dark about a possible resource would be unkind, unproductive and unwiki.

No proxy automation is taking place either, this is a trivial lemma.

6. Quotations It is, though, instructive to note the previous comments of a couple of current arbitrators:

  • "othing prevents other botops from taking over Rich's bots, provided that they comply with all relevant policies and guidelines," T. Canens
  • "You'll also be delighted to hear that the proposed remedies enable him to give you exactly the help you seek by way of planning the logisitics , working up the code, liaising with bot owners and so on." Roger Davies
  • "Hasteur is a big boy, if he wants to code a bot to Rich's specifications - it's his responsibility..." Worm That Turned

7. Colophon It has been expressed to me by an Arbitrator that, despite the findings not saying anything about it, the root issue was the speed of editing. It is already perverse, then, that I was blocked for a year for mistyping a single character manually. It would be even odder if any sanction were considered for precisely zero edits

On this note if any Arbitrator knows of any other hidden reasons for sanctions, I would be most grateful to be appraised of them.

References

  1. ^ "Response to Fram".
  2. ^ Dictionary of National Biography
  3. Copyright law
  4. Personal knowledge
  5. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dictionary_of_National_Biography#Members
  6. ^ Post to Gender Gap Taskforce
  7. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Dictionary_of_National_Biography&diff=621477792&oldid=609060720 Notice of availability at WP:DNB
  8. s:Category:DNB drafts

Notes

  1. We could potentially have a productive discussion on this basis, if that is the view of the Committee as a whole.

Response to Fram's third set of comments

I wonder how he reconciles this with his preferred "export-import solution" for someone with "the rights".

Where does he get preferred from? Just makes it up as he goes along I suppose.

@Robert McClenon

I provided the Gender Gap Taskforce with two links, one to a list of red-linked articles and their corresponding DNB pages on wikisource, and one (IIRC) to a category of drafts.

Anyone who wishes may take the text of the Wikisource article, or of a draft, or they may retype the text from the image of the DNB page, or they may re-write it in their own words.

If they use the draft (which is in my userspace) they will, in general, have less work to do than if they if the Wikisource page. I will be happy whichever they use.

As to the particulars, the intention is to improve the conversion process continually, this is known as kaizen. If an improvement to the process is made it will be shared by all new and existing drafts. Moreover source changes will also be reflected to existing drafts.

If they try to polish a draft in my userspace in Wikisource, and it were to be overwritten, their changes would not be lost, but would be available in history. Nonetheless this is probably a bad idea. It would be better to polish it on Misplaced Pages. They can do this, for example, in their own userspace, in Draft space or at AFC. They could also do it under the WP:DNB project space, or indeed in article space, provided they are not going to abandon a particularly problematic draft. Clearly they would do this if they worked from the Wikisource article or the images.

So I don't think I am placing any large manual burden on anyone, rather removing a manual burden.


@AGK

Anyone who wants to automatically import these drafts will need to propose a BRFA, which includes showing community consensus, per WP:BOTPOL. If the community consensus is to bulk import the pages, then I would not wish to stand against it, even though I don't think it is currently appropriate. The committee may have a different view of community consensus, of course.

@WTT

I had not realised these fine distinctions were that important. However the prohibition on automation is recorded, as far as I know, as an "Editing restriction" and does not ascend to the lofty height of a "Topic ban".

Statement by Wbm1058

No jurisdiction. Per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration, This Arbitration Committee's jurisdiction extends only to the English Misplaced Pages. See m:Arbitration Committee for other committees. Apparently Wikinews has a committee, but Wikisource does not. If you don't like what Rich is doing there, or in his own user space (which I'd assume was intended for debugging), then go to the Foundation and ask for an Office Action. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by User:Kim Bruning

Quick point of policy: Just pointing out that WP:PROXYING fails on both forks:

  1. "Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned editor" . Rich is currently not banned. (block expired in march AFAICT)
  2. "unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits.". Which passes if an editor checks before submission to en.wp.

Even if we bend #1 to also apply to editing restrictions, #2 still applies full force.

Further, I guess Fram reads "are ready to be imported at your peril" opposite from me. (I read it as "Don't do it that way. (yet)").

Together with the fact that this is on ws instead of wp I'm not sure there's a case here for arbcom per-se. (Though Fram's frustration is quite understandable here.)

I know the tendency these days is to delete rather than improve, and ABF over AGF, but this is still wikipedia. :-)

You know, Rich can Code, and Fran knows their quality control. Could we establish procedures where Fram can cooperate with Rich to generate something that both would agree was useful? The large benefit to wikipedia if these folks could work together is obvious, imao. ;-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Worm That Turned, Sure! Hence, anticipating that line of argument: "Even if we bend #1 to also apply to editing restrictions, #2 still applies full force.".
--Kim Bruning (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Worm That Turned <3 :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Questions and Comments by Robert McClenon

Fram has stated that many of the articles are "broken". I have not read the articles in detail, but would like to ask whether Fram's comments, such as that abbreviations for books of the Bible have been replaced with the names of the books, are valid. Is that criticism correct? If the criticism is correct, are the articles in Wikisource really ready to be pulled into Misplaced Pages, or will it be necessary for those copying the articles to make non-trivial edits? If, in your opinion, the articles are ready for Misplaced Pages, how is Fram mistaken? Why have you cautioned not to edit the articles in Wikisource? Am I correct in assuming that you are using a script in Wikisource? In that case, by overwriting and "rebreaking" any broken features in the script, it appears that you are proposing to place a large manual burden on Misplaced Pages editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment from NE Ent

If RF does something, and Fram doesn't obsess over it, is it really disruptive? This we have jurisdiction over anything in the universe that might affect Misplaced Pages slope ya'll seem to be on recently should stop, because it diminishes the credibility of the commitee (i.e. good luck banning Erik Möller).

RF was banned from automation because he demonstrated a lack of judgement in using automation to affect articles. If he automates off-en-wp, there is no violation. If the introduction of the work product of those automations by another editor diminishes the encyclopedia, the responsibility lies on the editor who did the edit, not RF.

If the committee is going to establish a vicarious liability policy in that an editor who encourages another editor to do something is as responsible for the one who does it … please desysop Fram for encouraging the behavior of Kafziel Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kafziel whom ya'll desysoped. No, that's not a serious request, it's a Reductio ad absurdum argument for the principle editors are only responsible for their own behavior, not what others do. NE Ent 10:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Fæ

I have met Rich in real life many times, we have had great chats, as you might guess this includes our different experiences with Arbcom, and he is a fellow supporter of Wikimedia LGBT+. I expect the outcome here to be "I don't see anything that the committee should do", as others have highlighted. If Rich wants to play around with Misplaced Pages content away from Misplaced Pages, meh, this is something that is actually a good thing as if others are going to reuse his work to improve Misplaced Pages contents that's their editorial judgement, not Rich's.

The Misplaced Pages community has seen 2 years of Rich being publicly pilloried for his use of automation, or more accurately, even the appearance of automation such as simple cut & paste editing, has become a reason for eye-watering year long blocks. This has become a death of a thousand cuts, how about putting aside the punishment hat and instead talk realistic solutions that give Rich a way to regain his good standing as a Misplaced Pages editor, and we can all benefit from his significant talents and interest in writing better tools for our editors?

Those members of Arbcom who have not had a chance to meet Rich and discuss his passion for the English Misplaced Pages, I strongly encourage to take up the offer of a Skype call. Nobody can possibly doubt his good intentions, his enthusiasm for open knowledge and his great potential for helping to deliver on our shared mission. He is exactly the sort of long term Wikipedian you want to encourage.

Let's move on please. --Fæ (talk) 12:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

P.S. I note that Fram's statement is currently 1,395 words long and may well be added to. I have only briefly skimmed the text as a result.

Statement by PBS

As one of two editors who did most of the systematic clean-up of Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography/Archive 2#List in October–December 2011, I do not share all of Fram's concerns. At the time I was of the opinion that it was better to modify the text and fix the attribution than it was to delete the articles. I was disappointed at the number of editors who participated in the clean up, and because the pages had been published I felt a responsibility to clean them up (even thought I wanted to be editing other pages), and so resented RF for placing that extra burden on the DNB project.

If articles are manually ported by editors from wherever RF has placed them, those editors have three choices:

  • to use the original DNB source,
  • to use RF's modifications
  • or not to do it at all.

The decision and the responsibility for making sure that the text meets Misplaced Pages content policies guidelines must rest on the editor who chooses to import the text. One editor building on the efforts of another is the Misplaced Pages way. I suspect, given the lack of participation if fixing the problems in the 100+ pages in 2011 when RF generated similar content, that the speed at which the articles he creates are copied across to Misplaced Pages will occur far more slowly than RF hopes it will happen.

To facilitate monitoring the ports I would suggest that an audit page is kept consisting of:

  • Date start, Date end, porting editor, Misplaced Pages page(s) affected, notes on the port

I think Fram needs to question whether Fram is opposing this initiative by RF, because Fram believes that RF is gaming the system and should not be allowed to do so (whether or not the outcome of RF's initiative will be a net benefit to the Misplaced Pages project); or whether Fram's motives are because Fram believes that this initiative will inevitably harm the project and so should be strangled at birth.

I think on balance it should be a benefit to the project, but it largely depends on the the editing care of any editors who decide to import the text and their taking responsibility for doing so. Therefore I would suggest that the project is allowed to go ahead with the understanding that it can be reviewed at any time.

-- PBS (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Hammersoft

It would be helpful if the committee could help clarify at what point Fram's reporting of Rich becomes abusive and/or excessive. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by bystander Mangoe

If Rich were to persuade someone to import en masse the material he has generated off-site, there would be something to deal with. As it is, one-by-one article creations don't represent the same sort of problem. Mangoe (talk) 19:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I reject the point that this is out of jurisdiction, because the purpose of the pages in question appears to be an import into Misplaced Pages. If this is not the case, urgent clarification is requested. Otherwise, I would welcome a statement from Rich Farmbrough; in answer to his question, detail is welcome and, I think, important. If there is no meaningful defence against the allegation that Rich intends to introduce a large number of automatically-processed stubs, statements should focus with some urgency on how this is not – as it would then appear to be – another violation of the automation prohibition that was issued on a "last chance" basis. AGK 21:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • If Rich assures us that the alleged import in question will not take place, I do not see much else for us to do. I would advise him not to attempt to "crowdsource" his automation, which would be a violation in spirit of his restriction, but until the committee receives evidence that such a thing is taking place, I do not see that we have anything to consider in this complaint. Perhaps Fram can correct me before I finalise my opinion on this request? AGK 22:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • In response to Rich Farmbrough's question, I do believe a statement from him is needed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • We do not have jurisdiction over Wikisource or any other project but the English Misplaced Pages, but it has long since been established that we have jurisdiction over off-wiki conduct when it is undertaken with the purpose or outcome of affecting the English Misplaced Pages. A banned editor lobbying for others to circumvent the ban would fall squarely within that, so Rich, yes, a statement addressing that accusation is much needed from you. Seraphimblade 00:56, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Ah, proxying. Our policies on the matter are quite clear and I'm sure no one ever questions them. In any case - if Rich is "making a resource available for people" and the people are willing to take responsibility for the edits - I don't see anything that the committee should do here, we have no powers that would change the matter. I would certainly take into account that Rich has circumvented his topic ban through using another project should he ever request his topic ban be removed. Worm(talk) 10:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    User:Kim Bruning - Rich is banned, not site banned, but topic banned - where the topic is a meta topic of "automated editing" and is covered by the WP:Banning policy. Worm(talk) 13:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    User:Kim Bruning, indeed - hence my previous comment "I don't see anything that the committee should do here" Worm(talk) 14:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    @Rich, I stand corrected. Worm(talk) 09:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree that there's not much for us to do here. What he may or may not do at Wikisource is up to the Wikisource community to decide, and I don't think his discussion of importing the text to Misplaced Pages is something we should act upon. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Amendment request: American Politics (Dinesh D'Souza films)

Initiated by Casprings (talk) at 13:19, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Case affected
American politics arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
  1. Remedy 1
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
  • None are directly affected

-->

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

No users directly affected. Will leave a notice on the talk page of America: Imagine the World Without Her


Information about amendment request

I request that all Dinesh D'Souza political documentaries come under Discretionary sanctions, as an amendment to the American Politics case. The article and talk page of America: Imagine the World Without Her WP:Battleground behavior and a similar dynamic to other cases that deal with American politics.

Statement by your Casprings

I think this is the type of situration the decision was designed to deal with. I would also note that similar battleground behavior has been seen in noticeboards, such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Use_of_Breitbart.com_to_defend_America:_Imagine_the_World_Without_Her

@Collect: The request only asks for films from one director and one type (political documentary). That isn't particularly expansive.Casprings (talk) 22:39, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
@Collect: While you may disagree with the original decision, the logic was clearly to be flexible and quickly handle areas under American Politics quickly. I think that this request is in line with that. However, if the question is about the original decision, that is another issue.Casprings (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Evidence (Might take a little while, as I am busy with work right now. However...) Edit Wars over content

1.,, , ,

2. ,,,,

I would note that 2. happened in the context of several heated exchanges on several different forms: For example,https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Use_of_Breitbart.com_to_defend_America:_Imagine_the_World_Without_Her and https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:America:_Imagine_the_World_Without_Her#The_Blaze

3. , ,,,

4.

Editors Seeing the page as a WP:Battle

1.

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:VictorD7#America_Talk_page

@Seraphimblade: I can and will add more. However, before I do, I wanted to ask: 1. Is this what you are looking for? 2. How much more do you want? Casprings (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@Roger Davies: First, life was busy this week so I had little time to add more evidence. Second, if your concern is doing this piecemeal, why not make it political documentaries in federal election years (00,02,04, etc). I have no evidence to back that up currently, but I would be willing to place good money that if you look at those articles you would find significant edit warring.Casprings (talk) 00:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by VictorD7

Frivolous since activity on the article has been winding down anyway, in accordance with a movie's normal box office cycle. I'm also not sure what the basis for expanding DS to all D'Souza films would be. Seems arbitrarily broad. VictorD7 (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

statement by uninvolved Collect

OK -- if we add all films, books, people, events, magazine articles etc. which are remotely connected to "American Politics broadly construed" we likely would have over twenty thousand articles on the list in a flash. Possibly a lot more than that. Draw the line quickly lest this get really out of hand. Collect (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

@Casprings: Note the other request on this same page at this point wherein some estimate was implicitly asked for. "Broadly construed" is, in my opinion, intrinsically ill-advised as any sort of standard, and this request is sufficiently afield from the original ArbCom evidence and findings as to illustrate that problem. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

@Casprings: I demur. Collect (talk) 23:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by DangerousPanda

Wholly unnecessary bureaucratic filing. The original decision was clear and flexible. If these specific items need to be subjected to the original case, it can happen without such a request for amendment - otherwise, you're going to create bad jurisprudence that requires everything to be vetted in triplicate before it can be subject to sanctions. Bad and poorly-thought-out idea all around. the panda ₯’ 15:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm confused. How can we possibly place the entire topic space of American politics under discretionary sanctions?? This is way too broad and overreaching. And what's the point of the discretionary sanctions broadly construed if editors have to ask for an amendment to include an article as part of the the sanctions? Are these discretionary sanctions different from all the other ones? What am I missing here? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@Gaijin42: Thank you for the clarification. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Gaijin42

A_Quest_For_Knowledge The entirety of AP is not under DS. Merely there is a policy that DS may be applied to any AP article, without a full case being required to do so. Individual articles or topics still need to be explicitly placed under DS, its just that taht can be now done at WP:ARCA for things under the umbrella of AP. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

I think that the Panda and A Quest for Knowledge are mistaken, and Gaijin42 is correct. American politics is not under discretionary sanctions as such. The ArbCom provided an optional procedure for any subarea within American politics to be put under discretionary sanctions if necessary so as to avoid the need for full cases. This request by Casprings is correctly filed. However, he has not established (in my opinion) the need in this specific subarea. Has there been edit-warring or other disruptive editing? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

In the absence of further evidence from User:Casprings of disruptive editing, I would be inclined to recommend that the ArbCom decline this request, but would ask Casprings to submit diffs. I have tried to address the comments of User:Roger Davies above, but will restate that Remedy 1 was meant to avoid either the need to overburden Arbitration Enforcement with issues arising from disruptive editing of tens of thousands of articles in the area of American politics (which would result from a blanket imposition of DS) or the need for full arbitration cases in order to impose discretionary sanctions on topic areas. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
The statement by User:Roger Davies appears to propose to be a change to Remedy 1 to replace it with discretionary sanctions for all of American politics. Since Remedy 1 was reviewed by the community with an opportunity for comment before it went into effect, would the large expansion of discretionary sanctions also be reviewed in a somewhat more public place than this board? What is the thinking of the other arbitrators, who either voted for Remedy 1 or did not vote? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Casprings, could you please add more details (specific diffs would be most helpful) as to why you believe these restrictions are needed? Seraphimblade 22:50, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I'd be much more inclined to authorise DS generally, rather than do so piecemeal.  Roger Davies 07:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Robert McClenon My thinking here is that authorising DS for a couple of articles at a time is not very good use of either the community's or committee's time. Authorising for the entire sprawling topic will - initially at least - likely place burdens on WP:AE but it should be possible to identify groups of articles within the topic which are troublesome and authorise DS for the sub-sets.  Roger Davies 08:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Robert McClenon If there's compelling evidence of widespread disruption right across the topic, I'm not averse to authorising DS for all of it. However, identifying sub-sets and authorising just for those might well do the trick. What we probably need to avoid is strings of requests for DS, one or two articles at a time.  Roger Davies 01:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Casprings Thanks for the additional comments. Having looked again at the diffs, it does not seem that DS are necessary as actionable misconduct on this kind of scale (if there is any) can easily be dealt with by normal community processes (ie routine admin intervention).  Roger Davies 03:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline at this time as hopefully the edit-warring has passed, and in any event can probably be addressed by ordinary means. If problems persist then if necessary the request can be renewed, with supporting evidence of need. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)