Revision as of 07:35, 9 July 2006

A complete mess

This article is a complete mishmash of loosely-related information that tries to do too many things at once. It looks as if it has grown organically from a definition-type stub, with no attempt to produce a coherent article. It ought to be split into an article specifically on climbing as a discipline of mountaineering (encompassing sub-disciplines such ice climbing and bouldering), with a decent introductory paragraph, and a separate article (possibly a disambiguation page) mopping up other activities like tree climbing that have nothing to do with mountaineering or rock climbing. Anyone coming here for information about climbing at the moment is going to be thoroughly confused by the multitude of links and lack of clear information, and would be forgiven for thinking that climbing is primarily a competitive sport.

Do other people agree?

Not being much of a climber myself I'm not sure I'd be the best person to attempt a rewrite, though I suppose I will if no-one else does. -- Blisco 15:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the same problems. This is the dismbiguation page covering the whole big topic. We do have subarticles on specific kinds of rock climbing, mountaineering, etc. But I'm sure the organization can be better. The competition stuff belongs in the sport climbing article, for instance. Let's see what we can do to make sure the topic is covered cogently. -Will Beback 16:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but it's not a disambiguation page - well, it may fulfil that kind of role, but it deviates in almost every respect from MoS:DP. I can't find any article that gives an overview of the sport as a whole, let alone the history and development of climbing (which is well documented and quite important in an article like this). Ideally there should be sections on the main types of climbing which summarise and link to the "main article". There must be plenty of books out there which follow much the same kind of format; it shouldn't be too difficult to find a few and use them as references. -- Blisco 19:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well yes, it's not a formal DP, just a functional one. If you have a plan go for it. I'll help and fill in whatever I can. -Will Beback 20:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, we can work on the outline here. Since this article needs major work, creating the outline first would give us a plan for action. -Will Beback 08:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Start of rewrite

OK, I've written a new opening paragraph that hopefully summarises the basics and should give pointers as to what to develop in the article. There are various ways we could proceed: perhaps chronologically, with the history section first, explaining the development of climbing techniques and practises; then sections on types of climbing, and grading (really need some more balance here, with summaries of all the international systems, linked to the main article). Or it might be better to start with an overview of rock climbing, moving on to sub-disciplines like trad, sport, Deep-water soloing etc., with the history following on from that. A potential problem is the fact that there are different methods of categorisation which overlap.

I've cut out bits that have nothing to do with rock-climbing. I don't think these bits really have a place in any article - they look rather like an extended game of word association - but I'm putting them below in case they could usefully be incorporated somewhere. Blisco 11:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleted bits

Climbing animals

Many animals have developed excellent climbing techniques. Some animals, such as geckoes, can walk up and down vertical walls and even walk on ceilings without any problems. But some other animals have the same problem as humans in that climbing down is more difficult than climbing up, because backwards movements are required. The best known example are cats, which have to be rescued sometimes from trees, because they cannot climb down from them.

Climbing in popular culture

Climbing also has importance in some festivals. The best known festivals in which climbing plays an important role are technoparades, especially loveparade. In these parades, it is very common to climb on trees, street lamps, portable restrooms and other large objects. Climbing is also common during streetparade in Zurich and reincarnation in Hannover, although security staff and policemen pay close attention to climbers, since injuries and property damage have occurred in the past.

Blisco 11:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I am going to do a major rewrite on this page. Hope I don't step on anyones feelings. I am new at this.

Thinredline 03:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I am goint to put this hear while I figure out how to make a new page for it

You can create a new article by saving creating a "red link". Climbing competition, for example. If you click on it you can start editing. -Will Beback 08:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Thinredline 06:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Getting started

The "Getting started" section isn't appropriate. Misplaced Pages's job is to describe, not to give instructions. See WP:NOT. Our sister project, Wikibooks, is set up to handle instruction manuals. -Will Beback 19:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, again. Thinredline 21:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments on the new intro and steavage et al

You write well, but you don't seem to know what you are writing about. This is beyond us vs uk.

The first sentence eliminates aid climbing from the definition of climbing

You define free climbing as roped climbing, and then say/imply that bouldering and freesoloing are variants of free climbing/roped climbing.

Then you go on to imply that trad climbers trad because they like risking death,(deleted already) ps. I like how you stuck the word extreme in there.

same with roped solo (what a great link) to support a ridiculous and biased claim

climbing, free climbing, and rock climbing are all defined the same way in various places

Don't even get me started on the solo climbing( ever hear someone say that they are going "solo-climbing"???) page where you pair free soloing with aid climbing. Isn't it a coincidence that both of the freesoloers that you listed are dead.

bah

Thinredline 23:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

more comments

The traditional climbing page seems to focus on bolts and the idea that the uk is "more" trad

The sport climbing page is written from a trad biased perspective, and ends with showcasing a trad ascent.

rest of the trad relevent pages are written from a sport climbing gumby bias

So far the way seems to be to focus on material things that you can buy on ebay. IE Dyneema and spectra

The average page is wrong (particularly from a us perspective) The average generalization stated as a fact is more often then not wrong in important particulars. (I don't know if that is solvable in this format but you could try.)

Thinredline 02:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

proposals

Re: the "solo climbing" category

Google "solo climbing" All the references beside the ones that come back here are in regards to free soloing or mountaineering by yourself. (there are two other: rc.com(idiots) and one from the manufacturer of the "soloist")

The term as you guys use it is not in any of the climbing glossaries that I have reviewed. (6or7 so far)

So where did it come from? From someone not really knowing what the terms mean?

Therefore (assuming you cannot find sources for the above or that ou don't like the idea of creating new definitions)

Give roped solo it's own page. There are numerous variations ie aid solo, unroped aid solo, simul aid solo, etc

Move the soloing info to the already established Free solo climbing

Will

if you agree could you change the redirect for free soloing from solo climbing to Free solo climbing

Thinredline 08:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes

I made a slew of changes at various points in the text to help clarify ideas. I separated the links in the long list, and tried to repair some bad links. Ordered the history section more or less. Added some commentary where I thought appropriate and made a few minor alterations in climbing history (I know a fair amount about that, but do sometimes make mistakes myself). I hope I've not offended anyone by my actions. Thinredline, if you feel strongly about the previous form of the article you may reinstate it. Or if you have questions or disagreements about what I've done, please enter them here. As I said, I make mistakes myself and need to be corrected.

Silentrunner 23:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with what you did. I would point out that Ellingwood pretty much freesoloed all of his routes. His typical gear placement were 3 pins in 500 feet or a three pitch 5.8R where he placed no gear at all. (except for anchors) Belaying technique was pretty much hold onto the rope. Leading technique was don't fall. Thinredline 03:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Good photo of him climbing in the Tetons wearing heavy leather gloves - probably good for that kind of belaying!

Better check on my subdivisions of 5.0 - 5.15, Thinredline. I changed that a little to reflect what I have experienced over a great many years. In particular, way back I can recall moving onto a slightly different playing field when hitting 5.6 & 5.7. Seemed like almost anyone with a little athletic background could handle 5.4 & 5.5, but I saw climbers be more hesitant at 5.6 and esp. 5.7. Teton guides were a little more cautious about who they would take up routes at those levels. And Chouinard used to say that 5.9 was just extended 5.8 (I didn't quite agree, but those levels were certainly linked). Eric Horst tells me that he thinks most diligent climbers can hit (at least a few) 5.12s with strong enough commitment, and I tend to agree. But change the breakdown back if you feel strongly about it. Silentrunner 05:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I will get back to you on the last one. When I started climbing the downclimb was 5.5 or6 with a couple of hundred feet exposure.

American climbers Franklin Spalding, William O. Owen, Frank Petersen, and John Shive, pioneered rudimentary belay and safety techniques for the first ascent of the Grand Teton in 1898 They reported placing one piton on the ascent. (It was later recovered)

Just a reminder that we need to keep this article grounded in verifiable assertions. We should rely on sources, rather than our own opinions or the oral remarks of experts. Luckily, every book on climbing discusses the YDS, so there is no lack of available sources. -Will Beback 05:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

So far the only references that I have actually seen have been pretty inappropriate. An encyclopedia using newspaper articles and internet forums as sources???? Aside from that nothing I add to this site has not been previously written about in one place or another. Btw. the oral history of the climbing community is a first class source. It is certainly more reliable then the mass media.

I have to say that all the comments that you have been making are pretty funny given the state of this article when I was first offended by it. Thinredline

The article is indeed getting better and better. But it needs to be verifiable too. Sources are the way to do it. My own library is in storage, except for Mountaineering: FOH, but I'm sure you guys have some of the other standards around. Oral histories, if they're recorded and verifiable by other editors, are a great source. -Will Beback 08:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

If I started out by documenting everthing I add to this site, I wouldn't get anywhere. Perhaps later when it make more sense for my time. In the meantime, if you want me to document a specific item I would be more then happy to. One thing I am going to do is delete stuff that flies in the face of what is verifiable. IE. saxony is and was known as one of the boldest least protectable climbing areas in the world. It wasn't a place where safe and sane climbing practices were followed. Thinredline 15:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Globalise tag

This article has improved a lot since I labelled it "a complete mess" above - thanks to everyone who's worked on it. However, it now strikes me as very US-centric, particularly in the history and grading sections (with the notable exception of the main photo), which is why I added a {{globalise}}. Is there anyone out there with experience of climbing in Britain/the Alps etc. who can help correct this? -- Blisco 16:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I can do the US stuff from memory. I might have to re-read some books to do justice to the alps. If anyone could suggest a good overview book of the british rock scene as I don't think I have ever seen one. My ex ended up with my mountain collection.

So far most of the UK perspective is mostly on off topic controversies. We need a focused section on ethical differences and regional approaches to the different forms of climbing. Standards, jargon, etc are all different Thinredline 17:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Missing Bottom, Saxony, Grades, etc

Who cut off the bottom of the article? Silentrunner 17:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"By the late 1800s climbers in Saxony were using ropes in a more efficient manner, to protect leads." Doesn't "fly in the face . . ."! : An attempt was made to protect the leader by inserting iron rings into the rock at least as belay points - I didn't say these guys were safe! E.g., photo of OPS leading the FA of sudriss on Falkenstein in 1913 clearly shows not only a belay by K. Hradzky, but the leader's rope going through a ring, protecting Perry Smith's traverse. Also, on Barbarine, Valley side route,1924, the lead climber is protected by what looks like an appropriate piton or ring placement for an otherwise dangerous, exposed lead. Photos by Walter Hahn. There are others. So let's not assume they were all suicidal. I see big improvements there over earlier alpine protective measures. Nevertheless I'm OK with dropping the sentence. However, the article needs input - clearly - by knowledgeable European climbers, able to correct us Americans if need be.

As for the 5.whatever grade descriptions, Horst's popular books verify what I said about 5.12 and above. However, the lower grade descriptions are more arguable. Perhaps that part should be dropped. Silentrunner 17:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I did. If you look at the history tab at the top of the climbing page, you can see the edits that have been made.

Can you document an instance of a lead fall being held? The typical climbs in the area as at the time involved 450 foot dead vertical fist, offwidth and squeeze chimneys. This was with 80ft ropes. the commonly accepted date for modern belaying concepts being introduce to the western us was in the 1930's by underhill in the sierra bulletin. (well documented) don't know anything about the grades edits Thinredline 18:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I might be able to if my German were better. I have a copy of Bergsteigen in Sachsen (1936), but haven't translated much of it. It's printed in gothic German, so that makes it twice as hard! Also, the examples I gave above were a little later than the late 1800s. My error. Yes, Underhill was prominent in that respect, and Dick Leonard and companions developed the dynamic belay (as you cited) in the early 1930s at Indian Rock, I believe. That was a huge step in safety. I think I'm going to bow out of this project. I've put in my 2 cents worth, but it looks too huge if it is to include all the different aspects of climbing and all the different nationalities involved. You've done a good job of rescuing this article from it's early peculiar incarnation, THR. If you're willing to put up with the frustrations more power to you. It could be a real showpiece with effort. A lot of what should be included is already at various Wikipeduia links - some good, others not so. I agree with you as to the "verifiable sources" frequently being merely various author's opinions, no better than ours - except for dates, routes, etc. Good luck! Silentrunner 20:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Rockclimbing on the internet is guaranteed to require a thick skin and it can take time to know you you are interacting with. RE the saxony deletion, sorry for wasting your time in that way.(you should of seen my version of) I plan on noting that saxony was the premier climbing location in the early 1900's. My ver first climbing book was bergsteigen, basic rock climbing by r.c.aleith. stick around. Thinredline 21:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Historic benchmarks

• 1938 Cassin ascended the Walker Spur of the Grandes Jorasses

Can we please include the significance of these benchmarks? There are countless first ascents, but only a few are worth including in a short list. For example, why is this important? -Will Beback 21:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It makes a lot of peoples list for one of the top ten ascents ever. Why is a long story worthy of a book. It is also the classic line on one of the most famous wall in the Alps. Thinredline 03:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Then let's say that.

• ''1938 Cassin ascended the Walker Spur of the Grandes Jorasses, considered among the ten most difficult ascents ever

and let's make sure to say who thinks it is amont the top ten. -Will Beback 04:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you giving orders now?

I spent more time dealing with you on this one item then I did on posting most of the list on this site. This is supposed to be a collaborative effort and you seem to think that I should be delivering a finished product.

If you wanted to know what is unique about casin and the walker spur you could of looked it up for yourself instead of asking me to do it for you. Then you have the nerve to tell me to add it for you? And where did you get "ten most difficult"??? rewriting thing that you don't understand. Thinredline 05:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Where would I look it up? I don't have any reference books at hand that mention it. Yes, if you want to add material then you should be prepared to explain its relevance and to add the reference as well. I just said "difficult" as an example. Maybe it's in the top ten because it is the most scenic, or has the best warming hut at the top. I don't know, it's your fact. -Will Beback 05:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as the sport routes. It includes the euros more and each of the routes is the first in grade according to someone somewhere. That or world famous. I am not putting expedition style climbers into this list as they belong in mountaineering. The alps are more like alpine climbing so they fit here... Thinredline 03:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Will: If you will notice in the climbing history section, I didn't make any assertions about the cassin other then it was a notable climb. I told you what the deal is on the cassin on the talk page and then you tell me in a personal message on my talk page that wikipedia policy requires that I document anything that I say to an administrator on a talk page?

Will someone please ask this administrator to please stop wasting my time.

almost gone Thinredline

=

Now he tells me to chill out. Will, your claim to have a climbing library in storage seems to be a falsehood to say the least. You don't seem to know anything about rock climbing or mountaineering, or their history.

Have you looked at the bibliography that I added.~ 60 entries That is about a third of my collection of climbing related books. Probably around twenty different books that mention ricardo cassin and the walker spur in one place or another. Some of which I haven't read for twenty years. Even with my library it would take a couple of hours at least to document each item I placed in history section. A list that I put together over a number of years for my own use. Thinredline 07:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Back to climbing

Hey Silentrunner, I remember reading, probably on your site that using the glued in belay pins as lead pro was prohibited by the original standards. I also seem to recall that threading the rope through the "pin" required untying from the rope....

Thinredline 21:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I hate to even make the suggestion, but you have the perfect writing style to rewrite the horrible intro paragraph. Thinredline

No, the comment Thorington made : "the rings are meant only for belays . . .", in its entirety is :"the rings are meant only for belays, and not for hand or footholds." The photo of OPS on Falkenstein in 1913 clearly shows the rope going through a ring some distance from the belayer. I think you are correct that in the early days the leader had to unrope and thread the rope through the ring, then tie the rope on again.

Re:I hate to even make the suggestion, but you have the perfect writing style to rewrite the horrible intro paragraph. : Thanks for the complement, but you're doing fine! Silentrunner 03:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Really bad

Your asking me to document stuff when you are hosting things like this?

Red point

(Redirected from Redpoint) See Red Point for places and geographical features of that name. In climbing, red pointing sometimes refers to repeatedly trying the same moves on a route until the climber is able to do them. The climber will learn the moves as he attempts them. This is a relatively recent development in climbing and the term was first used by German climbers around the time of the introduction of sport climbing. The origin of this term lies with a well known German climber who would keep a list of routes he did in a notebook. After reaching the top of a route no matter how, he would put a red cross (Rotkreis) next to the route. Should he then later manage the route in one go, he would change the cross into a big red dot (Rotpunkt), hence the name: red point ascent. Through its use sport ascents have been made at grades up to 9b+. The trad climbing equivalent is a head point. To obtain or accomplish a red point, the climber must climb the route from the start, leading while placing and clipping quickdraws as they go to the top, without falling or hanging on the rope. This differs from on-sighting a climb or flashing a climb in that a red point can be attempted as many times as needed, so long as it is climbed from the start without falling or hanging, and the quickdraws are not already in place. Pink pointing is similar, but with the quickdraws already clipped to the bolts.

-=-=-

Lets see where to start

Red pointing means repeatedly trying the same moves on a route until the climber is able to do them until you can do the move. Nope, it means your hangdogging.

A well known german climber who you cannot remember the name of..

Kurt Albert ring a bell

Red x's and red dot's in a note book. I guess you didn't like the idea of painting marks on the rock, so you figured you would rewrite history. I mean who is going to know.

Red pointing is a high standard of climbing. Head pointing is top roping and pre placed gear. ie poor style (by us standards anyway)

Then after describing the trad origin of the term from a gumby perspective you turn around and define a sport red point from a trad perspective. Too funny

This was the number one return from googling red point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Will Beback, or anyone else associated with this article, was responsible for the dubious state of Red point (see history). Please don't blame individual editors for other people's edits. If we were all held responsible for all of Misplaced Pages's faults we'd never get anywhere. If you think an article is inaccurate, correct it yourself or raise the issue on the relevant talk page - that's what Misplaced Pages is all about. There's a lot of poor content on this encyclopedia, but that's no excuse not to strive for excellency in all your edits - and that includes citing sources. -- Blisco 12:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Where do you see that I blamed anyone in particular for the redpoint definition? I put it in here in order to verify that no one actully thought it was correct, so that I don't have to be to concerned that someone was just going to erase it.

Will had every right to inform of how the site prefers things.; He has no right to keep bugging me about it or to ask me a question and then claim that I am violating site policies for not answering it in the way he wanted.

"The basic message from this site that I am getting is that my input is not good enough for wikipedia. (that's FUNNY STUFF)

The fact that not one of you cares to acknowledge will's obviously inappropriate behavior is obviously cliquish.

If it is the sites opinion that Will was just doing his job in an appropriate manner. Then more then likely my stay here is going to be very short.

Thinredline 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't welcome editors who make personal attacks on other editors ("You don't seem to know anything about "), so goodbye! Stan 23:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

History

The history section is getting a bit long for a main article - would be better to have a History of climbing that can do elaborate timelines and such. Appropriate length here is 2-3 short paragraphs, similar to what is done for country articles. Similarly for issues of technique; a reader coming in knowing nothing of climbing isn't going to want to get sunk into minutiae like "red pointing" vs "hangdogging" - we have a whole category of climbing articles that have plenty of room for that level of detail. In this case sport climbing seems most appropriate, nothing about the specialized terms there.

(And please, sign all of your additions here! Very confusing to try to figure out what's being discussed without them.) Stan 12:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification needed

It seems to me that the deal is you do not like volunteers that actually know what they are talking about. Because it makes you look bad?? So you guys fall back on what you think your good at. being wikipedians??? not. Do you really think that being in wiki form is more important then being reasonably correct?

So at this point I need to find out if I need to delete all of the stuff that I am not prepared to document in the way that you want. You guys seem to think that I am responsible for correcting any mistakes that you guys decide ou want to pick on. not

Obviously if posting something like cassin on the walker. Forgive me for thinking that many people could elaborate on one of the most famous climbs in the world put up by one of the most famous climbers in the world who has one of the largest climbing companies in europe named after him and also happenned to have put up the most famous technical mountaneering route in the united states. Who would know anthing about that.

BTW the assertion I made about a certain persons knowledge level is one of the easier things on this site to document. ps. you wouldn't be doing me a dis-service by banning me from the site. I don't like to be pissed off.

ps This is official notification that I am filing a "RFC" over the abusive and annoying behavior of the admin in context of my time and contributions here Thinredline 07:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

re bliscos comment

Since you obviously don't get it. The point was and is that their is a lot of misinformation on this site in relation to climbing. Lot's of work to do. So why is will so bored that he has nothing better to do then to keep bugging someone that obviously seems to know what he is talking about??? I love all the sentiments of who cares if the difinitions are wrong in the climbing glossary and what does that have to do with the climbing page anyway? Great stuff. Here is a funny thing. I care what is written about rockclimbing on this site. Being able to make an effort in ensuring that this site reflects the truth about rockclimbing is something I am willing to fight for. This isn't the first time I have run into ego's and politics on the internet in regards rockclimbing. The biggest problem to date has been dishonesty. We will see where you guy end up on that scale. Thinredline 07:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)