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:{{ping|Jytdog}} you appear to be basing your position on the fact that we should be positioning our article as the Chopra's PR hack would have it. ] -- ] 12:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
:{{ping|Jytdog}} you appear to be basing your position on the fact that we should be positioning our article as the Chopra's PR hack would have it. ] -- ] 12:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
::as i wrote above, i figured that folks would be intransigent to changing this. igaveitashot. thanks for talking. ] (]) 13:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
::as i wrote above, i figured that folks would be intransigent to changing this. it would have required persuading, since "guru" is well supported by sources. i failed. thanks for talking. ] (]) 13:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
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From what I can tell, outside of the lead sentence, the only mention of public speaking is a brief mention of how much he makes per lecture. Should we have more on this, or should we remove it from the lead? Adam Cuerden00:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
From what I understand, Chopra has a substantial following in India. Therefore, I would presume that there are more sources about his work published in India. If I understand correctly, many major Indian publishing companies do not distribute a great portion of their materials outside of India or South Asia. Could any of the editors here who reside, or have resided, in India confirm if this is true? Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Table Of Contents?
Every time I try to skip the cruft at the top of this page via the handy skip link up there, nothing happens, probably because Deepychops sabotaged the page to annoy me (For clarity, that was an innocent joke, not a personal attack on Dr. C.)
I have no idea of how to fix this depressing issue. Could a maven help? Pretty please? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:38, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I asked "What source says he is a new age teacher?" No specific answer to my question was given. Is the word guru disputed according the WP:V policy or is this a dispute with V policy? According to which reliable source the term is racist? The source does not say he is a "controversial" Indian-American author. I recently explained it in my edit summary and I previously explained it in my edit summary. Try to collaborate. QuackGuru (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
You are arguing for the most insulting word possible. There are scads of sources that describe him in other ways. You are not trying to avoid the problematic term, but simply arguing for it. If you don't have other sources, and are unwilling to look, then you have said your piece; you are unwilling to be part of the solution. So be it. Jytdog (talk) 22:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
forbes: "Deepak Chopra ... is acknowledged as one of the master teachers of Eastern philosophy in the Western world. " That is Forbes, hardly a purveyor of woo. That is strict support for "teacher"
skeptics dictionary does not even stoop to calling him a "guru": "Dr. Chopra has done more than any other single person to popularize the Maharishi's Ayurvedic medicine in America, including some New Age energy concepts" (one can argue without stretching that for adult education, teaching = popularizing.)
I am not advocating that we call him a "genius" or anything but "guru" is to me ... icky and racist. in this context. WP is better than that.
I have previously argued for re-insertion of the word "guru" as it accurately pinpoints how Deepak is perceived. I have never seen it called a racist term before, and I am not persuaded it is. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 22:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
I've only now looked at the article, and I am not going to bang this drum for long, but I feel strongly that if the term guru is to be removed from the article there needs to be more than just a claim by a respected editor that the word is racist, but some justification by way of evidence, and a solid reason why the source which uses the words "new age guru" isn't acceptable. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 22:33, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
a Hindu or Sikh religious teacher or leader, giving personal spiritual guidance to his disciples
(often derogatory) a leader or chief theoretician of a movement, esp a spiritual or religious cult
(often facetious) a leading authority in a particular field "
He is not teaching hinduism or Sikhism... so... are we being derogatory or facetious? Neither is good. (and if you don't see the racism in pinning a hindu-derived honorific used in a derogatory way on an indian scientist-turned-new-age-teacher (who this article correctly portrays as making a mess of the boundary between science and religion), I don't know what to tell you. I have offered alternative sources for using "teacher"; that is all we need per BLP to remove this derogatory "guru" thing. Jytdog (talk) 23:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
As of September 17 2014, the Deepak Chopra website states "Chopra, who was accompanied by fellow New Age guru Gabrielle Bernstein and American singer India Arie, had aimed to bring together a “critical mass” of about 100,000 meditators to set the shared intention for peace."
websters:
1 a personal religious teacher and spiritual guide in Hinduism
2
a : a teacher and especially intellectual guide in matters of fundamental concern
b : one who is an acknowledged leader or chief proponent
c : a person with knowledge or expertise : expert
oxford american dictionary
1: Hindu spiritual teacher or head of a religious sect
2a influential teacher
2b revered mentor
oxford dictionary of word origins
guru: This is from Hindi and Punjabi, from Sanskit guru'weighty, grave, dignified'... this led to 'elder, teacher'
American Heritage Dictionary
an acknowledged and influential advocate, as of a movement or idea”.
OK, i withdraw "racist" as I cannot find a independnt source I am happy enough with now. (i have seen that a few times but cannot find it now, so I have to withdraw it.) However, I am sticking with:
a) away back when chopra's representative showed up here in April he/she said: "Referencing him as simply a ‘guru’ is dismissive and disrespectful in some contexts, perhaps even a bit racist in some contexts, not just to Dr Chopra, but...". Dismissive, disrepsectul... perhaps racist. So denigrating to the subject of the article.
b) as mentioned, consistent with that, Chopra does not use that term for himself (sourced in the article with this
c) as mentioned above, dictionary definition has clear denigrating meanings
d) Roxy pointed to our guru article which is also makes it clear that the term as used in the West has derogatory connotations
e) So.. I think nobody can honestly deny that the derogatory connotations are there, and I reckon that the quack-fighters take certain delight in that, and I realize that it will be hard to swing consensus on this term, BUT
g) already presented above, there are sources for neutral terms like "teacher" that we can use, that are not derogatory. So let's use them, again per BLP, "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement."
h) if folks really insist on using the term "guru" i would be grudgingly OK with it being stated something like "commonly called a 'new age guru'" so it is not in Misplaced Pages's voice, at least.
i) very interested to hear from anybody supporting use of the term, that they consider to be a neutral or positive term. (and please don't hide behind "it doesn't matter if we think it is positive or negative, it is in the sources and that is all we need") Folks are choosing it here. thanks! this is my last statement on this. don't want to beat a dead horse. but please do consider the derogatory aspects. Jytdog (talk) 00:16, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Chopra's paid agent found anything other short of deification "offensive" - and we most certainly do not pander to present Misplaced Pages articles as the subject desires. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
What source says "commonly called" a new age guru? As of September 17 2014, the Deepak Chopra website does refer to the term "New Age guru".. A Chopra's representative does not represent NPOV or BLP policies. QuackGuru (talk) 00:28, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Does the skeptics dictionary call him a "guru"? "Of course, Chopra has a web site where he will be honored to take your money for one of his many books, tapes, or seminars. We should not be too harsh with our guru, however."QuackGuru (talk) 00:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
as i wrote above, the skeptics dictionary does not call him a guru. your question shows you are not even reading my posts, QG. just pounding away on the dead horse. TRPoD - I am not calling for deification, and generally if something is insulting, and there is a different and supported thing to say, why not do it? it doesn't take a away from the substance. I get it that ya'all want to be clear his health ideas are not scientific (and i agree he is far too sloppy, far too often, and the article establishes this well) but the "guru" is just stooping low for an encyclopedia. you are not responding to that. Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
as i wrote above, i figured that folks would be intransigent to changing this. it would have required persuading, since "guru" is well supported by sources. i failed. thanks for talking. Jytdog (talk) 13:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
