Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:42, 10 July 2006

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the nomination was keep. I've rewritten the article, and there's definitely enough verifiable information. Of course the Cartel itself doesn't exist and never did; that's the whole point. It's a hoax that's been consistently referred to ever since the late '90s. DS 19:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Lumber Cartel

All sources fail WP:V they are all self-published and unverifiable. Artcile is speculative, written vaguely, and conveys no usable encyclopedic information. Complete WP:OR. Might be a nice blog entry, its not an encyclopedia article. References unsourced opinion. Crossmr 05:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Clarification the debate about this article is not about the existence of Lumber Cartel. While the Jargon file does provide a published source for their existence and a very general description of what it is, it does not serve as a credible source for any other claims, theories, information put forth in this article.--Crossmr 23:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Additional info This article has been here over a year plenty of time for someone to actually turn it into something if anyone cared about it. As such, regardless of whether or not the topic may be notable/encyclopedic in itself, as there is precedent for no one caring about the article and it should not be here until such a time that someone is willing to write about the topic properly.--Crossmr 05:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Weak delete If the author doen't want it that's fine by me :-). Keep On second thoughts, it's not really up to the author - I've no objection to Merge either. It certainly was talked/joked about a lot on usenet. Should be verifiable via archives of news.admin.net-abuse.email for example. Dlyons493 Talk 07:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  Would of, could of, should of. This article has been here over a year. There has been plenty of time to clean it up and provide something verifiable that fits with wikipedia policy. Obviously no one is interested in doing that. It also needs major re-write because it reads like a conspiracy theory blog entry. I also used usenet a lot and don't recall once hearing about this. This is subjective, and may not have been that notable. As they currently don't provide a single credible source for this article, its complete original research, especially given the style of writing used in the article. This is a policy violation and is non-negotiable as per the policy WP:OR These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus The article cannot exist on wikipedia in its current form and no one is interested in cleaning it up. There is no reason to keep this. --Crossmr 07:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  and as as a secondary note, WP:V points directly to: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Using_online_and_self-published_sources as a see also, which includes Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, wikis or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources so no, you can't use the archives of news.admin.net-abuse.email to source this article.--Crossmr 07:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as a hoax without any credible references.--Aguerriero (talk) 18:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Since this was a Usenet phenomenon then Usenet is the primary source for it - the groups have date-stamped postings. has 33,600 hits. It was pretty much a daily thing on news.admin.net-abuse.*. which was a group I used to follow in the early days of spamming. As DarthVad says it's much along the lines of There Is No Cabal Dlyons493 Talk

And usenet isn't an acceptable primary source, regardless of where it happened. WP:V is non-negotiable and you can't verify those postings to usenet. The timestamp does not verify who wrote those messages. The timestamp can also be forged as can the from header. And as I pointed out below regarding TINC its never been put up for deletion and it should. Its a neologism and defining and explaining it is WP:OR. Those jargon files cannot be used as primary sources as a definition.--Crossmr 14:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I'm following all this - are you saying Google Groups timestamps and/or headers are forged? And what is the primary source for Usenet happenings if not Usenet postings? Dlyons493 Talk 15:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I never made the leap from using a newsreader to one of the web-based alternatives like google groups, but does it just not show usenet content and allow you post to it through the web? Whether or not the specific google interface allows you to forge time stamps, I have no idea. But that group you're referring to is just a usenet group. Anyone can access that with a newsreader and forge their timestamp. Not-withstanding that, you cannot verify who made any of those individual posts which goes against WP:V this is why forums are also not acceptable as sources. As for the primary source of what happens on usenet, there may not be a primary source. Regardless of how notable a topic this may be within the usenet community, if no one outside it has ever covered it (like say Wired) then you may not have a usable source. Misplaced Pages is not an indescriminate collection of all information WP:NOT and from WP:V "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is thus verifiability, not truth" Misplaced Pages is about verifiability not truth. As true as this article may be, if we can't properly verify it, it can't be here.--Crossmr 15:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Misplaced Pages is not a dumping ground for joke spam from usenet. Bwithh 08:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep. This appears to me to be notable and the article seems to be in fairly good shape anyway. We have decided that There Is No Cabal is notable enough. DarthVader 08:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  You can't justify keeping this article on the basis of a poor decision to keep another article. This article is also not in good shape. Its not written professionally, and doesn't contain a single credible source. I also see no evidence that it was ever put up for deletion so I don't see any concensus reached there for a keep on the claim that it was notable. The argument for deletion put forth doesn't even suggest deleting this article based on notability, its based on multiple policy violations and the fact that no one is interested in actually writing the article properly.--Crossmr 14:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per Crossmr. I'm not sure that we should have "There Is No Cabal", either, since it does not have any reliable sources. I also find it very annoying, as some people say it at every possible opportunity, but that is irrelevant. -- Kjkolb 09:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom - not verifiable. Inner Earth 14:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep notable meme documented in a published book. Honestly, this idea of unverifiable possibly-forged Usenet postings is a little paranoid in itself. Opabinia regalis 20:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  I wasn't putting forth that it was, I was putting forth that it could be and that is why, among other reasons, they can't be used as citations per WP:V. Where is this book that is published in? Its not cited in the article. As I pointed out in the nom the only references in the article all fail WP:V and as such this is original research. Notability notwithstanding if no one can write properly about it, thats no reason to keep a poor article.--Crossmr 21:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Published in The New Hacker's Dictionary, which - as the dead-tree version of The Jargon File - is semi-cited in the article. With regard to verifiability, Usenet postings are obviously primary sources about themselves. In this case the authorship of an individual post is irrelevant, as the article is about the meme, not the spreaders of it. I'm ambivalent on its notability - I think There is no cabal is appreciably more widespread, and would support a merge - but deleting this on verifiability grounds is pretty wikilawyer-y. Opabinia regalis 23:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this doesn't work as a source for the entire file. While it provides a basis for the name, it doesn't provide a basis for most of the content in the article. For example "Somewhere around late 1997..." that reference in the jargon file doesn't give any verifiability to that statement. As for wikilawyering, please read WP:V the policy is non-negotiable and a cornerstone for content on wikipedia. Thats not wiki-lawyering, its safe-guarding necessary standards to ensure quality. A single source saying "Hey this exists" isn't license to write whatever unsourced information you want on a topic. --Crossmr 23:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The original post was in Nov 1997. And is cited in the article. The long rant to which that post was a reaction was written not long before, though it no longer exists. So "Somewhere around late 1997" is about right, if poorly written. Opabinia regalis 23:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the citations are usenet postings, which are not acceptable for citation. The fact is every single claim made by the article outside of it being a mysterious cartel mentioned, which is covered y the jargon file, isn't properly sourced. Putting together theories and claims and drawing conclusions based on usenet postings is the definition of Original research.--Crossmr 02:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete as a Usenet in joke that isn't actually that notable or encyclopaedic. I'll reconsider if mainstream coverage can be shown. GassyGuy 22:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable and referenced. Please keep in mind that the Jargon File, as it has been published several times, can and is considered a reputable reference for such things. Mackensen (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Mackensen. Personally, I don't understand the logic behind this nomination. It could do with better sources than USENET, however; it has been published. Danny Lilithborne 23:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  The name has been published with a short couple of sentences on what it is. That does not qualify as a citation for the entire article. Other than the name and those couple of lines off the jargon file everything else is unsourced. WP:V is non-negotiable. This has been here long enough that IF credible citations were available and someone cared to cite them, it would be done. It couldn't just do with better citations than usenet, it can't do with citations from usenet as they are unusable as primary or secndary sources. While I appriate that some feel its a notable subject, its immaterial to debate. The debate is not centered around whether or not it exists, its centered around everything else in the article, and the fact that once all unsourced information is removed you're left with a 2 or 3 line copy of the jargon file.--Crossmr 23:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have to withdraw my vote (Neutral) in consideration of Crossmr's points. Danny Lilithborne 02:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, yes, this has phrase has been in published works, I remember it being mentioned in a book about the history of spammers that I read, but it is such a very, very, very minor concept (a conspiracy theory by spammers that anti-spammers adopted as a joke) that it deserves no mention in Misplaced Pages of any kind, and certainly not its own article. Recury 23:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete per WP:V. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 23:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Mackensen above. Tom Harrison 00:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  The notability isn't in question, and its not referenced outside of its existence, so what are you keeping it per? I suppose if it would make it clearer for someone, I could remove all the unsourced content from the article so that all that was left was 2 lines so that people got a clear picture of the scope of the unsourced content.--Crossmr 00:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I questioned its notability, but yes the verifibility thing needs to be addressed as well. Recury 00:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, I don't believe it can, and obviously other than claiming it should be kept, no one else is interested enough to either. Which is exactly why this article was put up for AfD. While the Jargon file is a publish source that indicates the Lumber Cartel exists and why(very generally), there is no other credible source for the rest of the information.--Crossmr 00:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete WP != catch-all for every stupid joke on the Internet. Wile E. Heresiarch 05:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep as the original author of the article. Personally, I think reference to the original posting and mention of Jargon File / The New Hacker's Dictionary is enough of a source in cases like this. Yet, I'm happy to admit that this is topic isn't of a great big relevance and isn't exactly in great big wide use these days. Agreed with Wile E. Heresiarch that WP isn't a place for every silly net joke, even if they're quite dated and well-known =) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 07:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  Weak delete instead, see below. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  No its not enough to be a source. Every claim and piece of information put fourth has to be sourcable per WP:V. So while Jargon File can source the fact that the lumber cartel exists, thats all it really provides. It provides nothing else, so when you removed the unsourced information you're left with an unexpandable sentence.--Crossmr 13:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  Okay, now I've had my coffee and actually read the crap I wrote in the article. I'm an idiot. You're absolutely right, of course. Articles on obscure pieces of net humour are very, very hard to ultimately source, especially when a lot of discussion about this stuff happened on some forums (or Usenet, in this case). My only defense when writing the article is that I certainly did not make new claims, just repeated the same stuff that people said when debunking this "conspiracy". So yeah, of course it looks like OR, while actually just KSRTPWRMFITHBAP (Kinda Shoddy Research the Professors Would Roast Me For If This Had Been a Paper). =) I certainly wouldn't begin such article nowadays... --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete, not particularly notable. 68.50.203.109 08:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to There Is No Cabal (TINC). This is a single concept discussed in two places. There is good evidence that this temr exists and was widely used (aJargon File is a reliable source for that) and TINC gives some other sources, including subject experts. Consolidate there. Just zis Guy you know? 15:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  There is no evidence it was widely used. There is evidence it was used within a small group on usenet. Jargon File sources its existence, but sources nothing outside of that. TINC has no other usable sources on its page outside of Jargon File.--Crossmr 19:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The Lumber Cartel is, in one sense, on the same order as Time Cube -- it is a kook notion that has gotten wider discussion well outside of the vanishingly small circle of its believers. Yes, there actually were spammers who told the press that anti-spammers were funded by the paper industry. However, the Lumber Cartel is also notable as a cultural phenomenon online, more in the sense of the backbone cabal, because anti-spammers took on the absurd aegis of the "Lumber Cartel" name. --FOo 00:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

  I'm sure you can site that wider discussion?--Crossmr 00:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete because it's nn and per WP:V. --WinHunter 11:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.