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Léal Souvenir

Léal Souvenir (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Léal Souvenir/archive1

Nominators: Ceoil, Kafka Liz 23:128, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

One of the most penetrating and careful represntations of a late medieval prole, even one so seemingly highly placed. Jan van Eyck signed and dated this oil on oak in 1432, leading the way for secular portraiture across centuries. But even this is to undersell the painting; there is a lot more bubbling underneeth the surface, given the apparent empathy in this man's expressive face. Co-nom with Kafka Liz who knows things about ancient languages and symbols I dont. Ceoil (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods

• Fixed. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• File:Tombstone_of_C._Vetienus_Urbiqus.jpg: since this is a 3D work, the photographer also holds a copyright - what is the licensing status of the photo?

• Unknon photographer, unknown date. We might have to loose this, looking for alternatives. Ceoil (talk) 00:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• File:Portrait_of_Baudouin_de_Lannoy_c1435.jpg needs a US PD tag, as does File:DufayBinchois.jpg and its sources File:Guillaume_Dufay.jpg and File:Binchois2.JPG. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:25, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

• Those aren't the sources for DufayBinchois.jpg. Two images that only show small parts of the image that they are claimed to be sources for can't, in fact, be the source. Where's the rest of the image come from? For that matter, they don't look much like the relevant bits of DufayBinchois. Adam Cuerden 08:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Added these. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:51, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Quick comment: Per WP:LEAD, 4 paragraphs is a bit much. It takes up about 22% of the article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
• Also, why not use File:Jan van Eyck 092 (big).jpg? This appears to be the version on the National Gallery's website. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

  I've chopped the lead somewhat, and replaced the lead image with the NG version, which, yes has better colourisation. Tks. Ceoil (talk) 18:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment

• Sorry to butt in, I didn't see Nikki and Crisco already doing the image review. One more point though: File:Follower of Jan van Eyck Marco Barbarigo.jpg is obviously "PD-art|PD-old-100", but still needs some source information (ideally a link, or a brief description of the file origin). GermanJoe (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi GermanJoe, good catch. Added that now. Ceoil (talk) 23:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Prose comments (Crisco 1492)

• The stone parapet contains three separate layers of inscriptions, each painted in an illusionistic manner to give the impression that they had been chiseled into stone. - Avoid repeating "stone"?
• letters "Léal Souvenir" (Loyal Memory) - letters or words?
• Apart from the dual portraits of the donors in his Ghent Altarpiece which were probably completed in 1431 or in the early months of the following year - source?
• 8mm - worth using a convert template?
• The oak panel consists of one board, vertical in grain and about 8mm thick. It is tightly cut at the edges of the paint surface, while at some point the support was cut in eight pieces. - didn't you just say this in the preceding paragraph?
• Its - Your previous subject was "Infrared photography", which I doubt is the "its" you mean
• original colour hard to read - is "read" the best term here?
• Standardise whether you put periods after the c in circa (compare text and caption)
• Dab links: canon, Lucchese
• The first was on copper, an exact replica or original was found by Eastlake in the collection of the Lochis family of Bergamo in Italy. - not sure what you're saying here
• over two horizontal - two horizontal whats?
• During the 19th century it appears in the collection of the Scottish landscape painter Karl Ross; there are records of a sale from him in 1857. - shouldn't this be in the second paragraph of this section? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:50, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Dup links: Erwin Panofsky, parapet, Erwin Panofsky, Bergamo, and Turin

sound Crisco, working, slowly through these. Ceoil (talk) 04:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment and image review by Adam Cuerden

This badly needs a proofreading. I've just caught two very big typos in the handling of the Greek ( https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=L%C3%A9al_Souvenir&diff=630324531&oldid=630319617 ) , which weren't even consistent

Other issues: "The middle inscription contains the letters "Léal Souvenir" (Loyal Memory)," - Technically, it says "LEAL SOVVENIR" - I'd give the actual text, THEN convert to standard lettering. Also, what language is it? Latin? If it's Latin, where's the é coming from?

As for the images:

• File:201005151356 NE CSM Pancuius.jpg - Should probably have an English translation of the file description page (keeping the German, of course)
• File:Portrait of Baudouin de Lannoy c1435.jpg - Should probably have the border with the computer-added text cropped.
• File:DufayBinchois.jpg - Source, as given, is nonsense. Should probably have an {{Information}} template.

Otherwise, the images are fine. Oppose for the moment - we need to fix up that DufayBinchois image, and I'd like to know what's going on with the inconsistencies, and think knowing the language of the title matters. Adam Cuerden 03:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

all noted, and thinking. It's worth saying that the sources contradict each other, with Campbell IMO the most authorative and he does speak in meta at times, ie gives an overview, with refutations. The difficulty is that van eyck did not have a command of the languages, and made errors, which we had reproduced, but you 'copy edited'. Ceoil (talk) 04:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I looked at the image. That's clearly a theta, not an O on the artwork. "TγΜ.ωΟΕΟς" is patently wrong. I could understand discussion about the Sigma at the end, as it's weirdly shaped on the artwork, but if we're going to pretend an omnicron translates as th, but isn't a theta, and that, of two completely different figures on the artwork, both the theta and the omnicron are omnicrons, that's just patently wrong. Adam Cuerden 07:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

actually we are pretending nothing, just reading, interpreting and thinking. If you want to be cute I will ignore you from now and carry on. You can either help and be construive or be defensive and aggressive. Don't really care, because I hadn't asked you a question. No to what. ] (talk) 08:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

your comments, position and temperament is noted, but this is not a simple matter, and is being addressed, but I hope not within the glare of such an aggressive reviewer. Noted adam, now get lost, and I will post back when I am happy that this is resolved. Ok? Ceoil (talk) 08:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Cas Liber

• wanna hyphen in "inward looking" and "vertically cut"?

• Today its varnish is severely degraded - "today" redundant here

• link Infrared photography somehwere

• link bourrelet and cornette too

• Descriptors for Panofsky and Danens at first mention