Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:26, 27 October 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the India Against Corruption article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This page is not a forum for general discussion about India Against Corruption. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about India Against Corruption at the Reference desk.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. India Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article was last assessed in January 2013. An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Organizations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Find sources notice

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article and talk page have been the target of long term sock and meat puppetry. More information can be found here.

Archives (index)

Index 1, 2, 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Concerns

1. Infobox data: In the infobox, Arvind Kejriwal has been mentioned as a "key people". Should we mention in bracket that he is a former member (this is based on what we have in the article now).
2. Notable members: There is a list of "Notable members" in the article. It is unclear (in the article) whether they had a "formal membership/registration procedure". Is "Members" the right word here? Or something like "participants", "activist" "workers" may be used?
3. The popular movement is distinct from a pressure group campaigning for Right to Information that bears the same name. — it is in our lead. I am facing difficulties to find where it has been discussed in details in articles body, hence, it might be "unsourced" claim.
   What is meant by "Pressure group" here?
4. Those involved with the IAC core committee eventually diverged to form the — unclear. Article mentions, some people stayed even after the split.

Tito☸Dutta 22:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Tito, my suggestions re the points you raised would be the following:

1. Remove the infobox completely. Infoboxes are not obligatory and should not be used where they create confusion or over-simplify. Trying to force what appears to be a loose coalition of activists with no organization or formal governance apart from a "core Committee" into a formal organization like Greenpeace or UNICEF (for which {{Infobox organization}} was intended) is counter-productive.

2. Remove the list of "notable members". It adds nothing, and is simply a source of arguments and unreferenced drive-by additions. Where there are reliable sources linking a person to the movement's activities in a significant way, those people should be covered as prose within the article itself.

3. Remove The popular movement is distinct from a pressure group campaigning for Right to Information that bears the same name. from the lede. Given the paucity of reliable sources available concerning its present activities (if any) and the apparent contradiction with the quote from the Hindustan Times at the end of the "Divergence" section.

4. Change the sentence in the lede: Those involved with the IAC core committee eventually diverged to form the Aam Aadmi Party and Jantantra Morcha. to something like:

Divisions amongst key members of the IAC's core committee eventually led to a split within the movement. Arvind Kejriwal left to form the Aam Aadmi Party, while Anna Hazare left to form a replacement campaigning group, Jantantra Morcha.

In that respect, I'd also change the heading Divergence to Split.

Voceditenore (talk) 06:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for replying. #1, #2, I agree. good suggestions. #3 If that line is removed, the article becomes only on the movement, the IAC editors are trying to change the article about "an organization" (founded in 2007), I have not studied it still, that needs to be mentioned in the article, at least in a hatnote. #4 -- okay. Thank you once again. --Tito☸Dutta 06:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Long-term solution Tito, so far, there are zero reliable, independent, secondary sources to support the claim that it was founded in 2007. Ditto their other claims. Note that even the Hindustan Times refers to their "owning" the IAC as of September 2013 simply as a claim. So no, that doesn't belong in the article until/unless such sources can be found. Your statement If that line is removed, the article becomes only on the movement is absolutely key here and leads to my suggestion for more long-term solution. My suggestions above are simply an interim solution. This article plus 2011 Indian anti-corruption movement and 2012 Indian anti-corruption movement are all unfortunate consequences of recentism and various groups of activists seeing Misplaced Pages as yet another arm of social media to promote their cause. In the long term all three articles should be merged (with considerable pruning of all three) into 2011 – 2012 Indian anti-corruption movement. Note that there is already a long-standing proposal to merge the 2011 and 2012 Indian anti-corruption movement articles. This article could be a subsection of that merged article. Such a major restructuring would take a lot of work. Perhaps a task force of WikiProject India could take it on. It needs experienced editors thoroughly familiar with the appropriate Indian sources and an ability to write coherent and concise prose. Voceditenore (talk) 07:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• That is a wonderful post. It shows both your expertise and your knowledge about this subject and Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. I was not following their replies and discussions so far.
  Correctly or incorrectly, by "India Against Corruption", news papers, medias etc. mean the movement that gained momentum in India in 2011-12.
  Now, they may have an organization with same name and it might be a brand name/generic name type of error as well. But, it needs to be verified.
  About merging, I feel, this IAC should be the main article, but, that can/should be discussed in details later. --Tito☸Dutta 08:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Voceditenore's suggestion that we have a single article focused on the larger story of the 2011-2012 movement, which would include the involvement of IAC as well as that of other groupings and the part played by some individuals even as those groupings changed. Merging those descriptions into an article about IAC would produce a much more awkward result, subsuming other narratives into the story of the IAC, viewing events from a single perspective and even omitting material as irrelevant to the subject of IAC. NebY (talk) 09:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• This merger has been my proposal for a very long time and I've been working on all three articles to achieve that end. That has involved, and likely will still involve, removing a lot of copyvio as well as the usual fluff. If the IAC pressure group want an article about themselves then, as said umpteen times in the past, they'll have to demonstrate notability. - Sitush (talk) 12:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with Voceditenore Remove The popular movement is distinct from a pressure group campaigning for Right to Information that bears the same name. Further it is only there claim that the Hindustan Times of 3 September 2013 Published The group, which now runs — and claims to own — the IAC, mostly comprises Right to Information (RTI) activists. This should be removed.Further whether Veeresh Malik is notable puts that He is a Co-convenor and co-founder of the India Against Corruption anti-corruption movement.Now cannot find a source outside there own website.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:59, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The IAC organisation exists and there are more sources that could be used to verify this. None that I've ever seen actually confer notability sufficient to justify a separate article but they do verify. - Sitush (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Eg: page 130 of this, an official paper of the Rajya Sabha. - Sitush (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

IAC organization will fail notability for now did search but did not find anything notable that will pass notability .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 20:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Which is why we have consistently prevented this article from being hijacked by that organisation. That is not the same as saying that the thing should not be mentioned in order to avoid confusion. What I'd really like to pin down is whether they are in fact a registered NGO. - Sitush (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Per this discussion so far, I have provisionally changed the lede along the lines suggested. I have also removed "along with Team Anna" from the lede. It was problematic for a number of reasons, but primarily because it implies that IAC=Team Anna, which is not strictly true, at least according to the sources. I have also renamed the "Divergence Section" to "Internal split" and made a more precise redirect from Team Anna. I have also made some slight tweaks to the "Internal split" section to bring it more into line with what the sources actually said. For ease of comparison and discussion, see this diff showing the changes I made. Voceditenore (talk) 09:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Update: #1, #2 mentioned above  Done. --Tito☸Dutta 05:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Specific concerns

1. populist in the lede and elsewhere. This word is misused, often as a perjorative for demagoguery . It should be replaced by the organization's own description "people's movement".
2. The 2 suggested links for "Further reading"
   1. Hensman, Rohini (September 2011). "Converging agendas: Team Anna and the Indian Right"
   2. Megwanshi, Bhanwar (5 September 2011). "India: The Communal Character of Anna Hazare’s Movement" - ought to be deleted immediately, as they do not relate to "India Against Corruption" but Anna Hazare's JLPB campaign/s and Hazare's earlier campaigns.
3. The lede's Divisions amongst key members of the IAC's core committee eventually led to a split within the movement is incorrect. (A) There's no hard evidence that there was ever a "split" within the movement, or (B) That the IAC's core committee ever disagreed. I believe the true position is what the IAC has disclosed on its official website/s, viz. that Mr. Arvind Kejriwal's NGO Public Cause Research Foundation was hired in 2010 by IAC's "Core Committee" to launch a new campaign exclusively against CWG-2010 scams in IAC's name, and that this campaign was soon terminated by IAC Core Committee on 9/Dec/2010 when this new activity of PCRF got enlarged and infiltrated by right wing persons affiliated to the communal Jana Sangh's successor party the BJP. Sotyam Eba Joyate (talk) 05:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

• Per 1 and 2, I have removed the descriptor "populist" altogether, primarily because "populist" is an inaccurate label which ≠ "people's", but also because it is unnecessary. I have removed the "Further Reading" section with Team Anna and the Indian Right and India: The Communal Character of Anna Hazare’s Movement because although they specifically mention the IAC, they are opinion pieces from a particular political standpoint, not relevant for improving or referencing the article. However, they do contain references to potentially reliable sources, hence I'm linking them here on the talk page. As for 3, your assertions are not supported by the reliable sources, all of which call it a split, splinter, within the movement, amongst the leaders of its core committee etc. The official website of the group now claiming to own the IAC brand is not a reliable source for the assertions you want to replace them with, and in fact, is an even worse "opinion piece" than the other two I removed. Its "History" section is an incoherent rant. It's fine to put that construction on events for your members on your website. It is not a reliable source for this article. Voceditenore (talk) 07:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

• For #3 I am referring to a specific paragraph No. 3 here. The referred details of the substantial payment/s from IAC to PCRF are contained in the audited balance sheet/s of the PCRF which can be accessed at PCRF Official website. As these are internal matters between IAC and PCRF, they are hardly likely to be of general interest or published in 2nd.ary sources for such routine matters where the respective parties were admittedly well known to each other. At the same time there is no absolutely no evidence to show that any of the IAC's Core Committee members ever split from IAC, if you differ perhaps you could list their names. A neutral encyclopedic statement would be that Arvind Kejriwal's "team" left the IAC campaign to pursue politics. In fact PCRF is now merged within Kejriwal's Aam Aadmi Party as per . I have no comment on the "History" section of IAC's website because I observe that IAC has a distinguished editorial board to whom your opinions are better directed. Sotyam Eba Joyate (talk) 08:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Links

<I've blanked this previously collapsed section per Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/India Against Corruption sock-meatfarm. Misplaced Pages will not host threats and groundless attacks against individuals. Bishonen | talk 11:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC).>

Blocked by an admin. Might I suggest any further posts by sock/meat puppets simply be reverted and the sock told to request an unblock from the original account? That way, the community can place conditions on the potential unblock (e.g., no attacks on Sitush). --NeilN 14:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I've manually archived the old, bloated, and sock-filled "discussions" to Talk:India Against Corruption/Archive 3 so that we can start afresh. And indeed, some progress has been made. I have collapsed the recent lengthy list of links and off-topic comments by the now blocked "new" user. My approach had been to treat the "new" editor courteously, since initially he/she appeared to be attempting a more reasoned and constructive discussion instead of casting aspersions on other editors and hinting at legal action. Unfortunately, it soon degenerated into the usual modus operandi of this group. It's probably is a good idea to revert suspected sock/meat puppets on sight, until one of them goes through an unblock procedure. However, unless it is a clear BLP violation or act of vandalism, I'm reluctant to revert it myself. Voceditenore (talk) 18:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

It was obvious to me that was a sock. There are a lot of changes going on that look wrong to me but not much I can do about it from here. - Sitush (talk) 02:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, yes it was also obvious to me from the outset that the editor was a member of the group, although possibly not the same person (under multiple names) who had made the extensive legal threats and carried out the harassment. Hence, I was willing to give some rope. However, there were features of the editor's later discourse (which I won't go into) that made it obvious that it was (or had become) a shared account. As I said, the changes I made were only provisional. Sitush, which ones do you think should have further changes or be reversed? None of it is writ in stone. Voceditenore (talk) 05:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

IAC logo

I just uploaded nicer version of IAC logo which is approved by IAC 'to accompany substantive text describing India Against Corruption and its activities'

It is from an unrelated organisation that happens to share the same name and has been disrupting this project. You might want to read WP:SOCK because that, effectively, is one of our policies that organisation has been contravening for months now. - Sitush (talk) 13:19, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Which organization is that organisation. I understand u are saying there are 2 IAC organization and they both have the same logo. Is that correct ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bongchillum (talk • contribs) 13:25, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class India articles
• Mid-importance India articles
• C-Class India articles of Mid-importance
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs in India
• WikiProject India articles
• Start-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Start-Class organization articles
• Low-importance organization articles
• WikiProject Organizations articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics