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Revision as of 02:38, 3 November 2014 editDjembayz (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers27,200 edits →Anonymous editor: "I wish I could participate, but it is too dangerous.": Five campaigns against sexual harassment that you should know← Previous edit Revision as of 15:40, 3 November 2014 edit undo12.186.136.234 (talk) →"Five campaigns against sexual harassment that you should know"Next edit →
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== "Five campaigns against sexual harassment that you should know" == == "Five campaigns against sexual harassment that you should know" ==
* Examples from different countries: , from Deutsche Welle -- ] (]) 02:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC) * Examples from different countries: , from Deutsche Welle -- ] (]) 02:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

==Frida Kahlo==
Thought some people here might be interested - there's a campaign to get Frida Kahlo in the Mustache Hall of Fame, as she was proud of her mustache and often included it in her self-portraits. You can nominate her (or anyone else you like) here: http://mustachehall.com ] (]) 15:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:40, 3 November 2014

Shortcut
  • Welcome to the GGTF: the gender gap task force. Please sign up if you'd like to help.
  • The talk page is for friendly discussion about anything related to closing Misplaced Pages's gender gap, including asking for help with articles, AfDs, and so on.
  • Add new posts to the end or click here to start a new topic.
  • Sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~).

Spin off the GGTF into a new WikiProject?

We've 54 members in the GGTF, and there is a proposal to create multiple, defined tasks for the GGTF. I think that this task force would work better as a new WikiProject, not under WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It used to be that the task force was about gender bias, but now it's been changed into a gender gap task force. This implies that the reason to get rid of the gender gap is to counter systemic bias, which may be a primary reason for getting rid of the gender gap, but I'm sure many people here have alternative reasons for trying to counter the gender gap. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 13:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm here because this is part of CSB. What is your alternative reason? --GRuban (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
@Carolmooredc: Misplaced Pages:Comment on content, not on the contributor. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 21:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
The issue of the relation has been addressed here before: SlimVirgin’s question on “If MRM people are causing a problem here, this page is ipso facto covered by the sanctions” plus continuing discussion and
Let's hope not. Putting this under the soul-sucking dominion of WP:AE would be the surest way to kill broad participation. —Neotarf (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC) No, wait, MRM is under community sanctions, not ArbCom. —Neotarf (talk) 22:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Way back in June-July Arbitration sounded like a good thing to a couple editors, but since then it has become clear it's just one more nail in the coffin of this project. That's what I fear this move would be. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I can't see what connects arbitration, men's rights and calling the task force a wikiproject. SlimVirgin 22:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
This archived thread on a past Men's rights disruption, continuing disruptions and possible solutions discusses possible Arbitration as a solution (see last three posts especially). So if a men's rights person was proposing something, without technically invoking community sanctions by discussing men's rights, one might be a little concerned about the reasons. But if no one else thinks it's a possible problem, I'll relax. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
If User:Carolmooredc believes that I am somehow disrupting the project, I would suggest that she takes it up with me or creates a section on this talk page. In response to her saying that this move is the doings of an MRA trying to kill "this project" (italics mine), I would like to point to Misplaced Pages:Comment on the content, not the contributor again, as you have not provided any evidence that any perceived viewpoint of mine would somehow affect the content of this proposal or of any of my actions or comments related to the GGTF or any topic that may be covered under community sanctions. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 22:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
It's easier to just ask for someone's point of view and get a positive reply that it's not an issue than to feel one must go through a bunch of diffs and their full context, which can clarify certain comments. But never mind if you don't want to discuss it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind moving it to WikiProject Gender Gap. I started it under the systemic bias wikiproject only to give it a home (which is why it first had "bias" in the title, and is one of their "task forces"). But as it grows, a separate wikiproject might be more appropriate. SlimVirgin 14:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I have several concerns. Having one active project under Counter Systemic Violence helps support the others. Having a lone project might make it harder to find if it goes dormant and might make it easier to target as "against Misplaced Pages policies" if it becomes its own project and people keep harping on non-issues like "2 men to revert a woman" proposal, "political activity", "rabble rousers", etc. Just like a Stand Alone Wikiproject, this one can easily create a few more tabs and pages. At this point there isn't even a proposed need for separate pages, except for a resources page will I'll come back to in a few weeks (i.e., one less "kitchen sinky" than my big one). Then there is dealing with practical bureaucratic concerns on redirects, changing various links already in place throughout, etc. etc. So I would not be so quick to jump upon the idea. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm with @SlimVirgin:. Split this off. Systemic bias (not "violence") is a content issue; gender gap is a participation issue. This page is just a dramafest and useless to helping solve either issue. Montanabw 18:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
That's an interesting distinction I hadn't considered. I have felt that the gender gap issue did not neatly belong in the systematic bias wiki project but for other reasons. The gender gap issue seems to me to be a big enough issue that it could stand alone as a project. Obviously that project could have links to other relevant projects such as the systematic bias project to help ensure that it doesn't become orphaned but I see value in establishing it as its own project.
Whether it is moved to a new project or remains here it would also be useful to think about the interplay between this page and the gender gap page on Meta. It isn't clear to me how these two interrelate. Conceptually, one would think that the meta-page would be the main page covering the issue from the perspective of all of Wikimedia while this specific page would concentrate on those aspects especially relevant to the English Misplaced Pages. However that does not seem to be the way they are organized, which is almost certainly due to the non-hierarchical nature of this enterprise and the fact that some contribute to one or the other while a few try to make sure there is some overlap in material.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I think there's support. User:Carolmooredc is the only one disagreeing. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 00:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
And I assume that if anyone gets trollish and finds the "higher level" of Wikiproject some sort of Feminazi plot to take over and destroy Misplaced Pages, you'll be defending that choice to the hilt. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Meta-wiki already has its own gender gap project. This task force is already essentially its own WikiProject, and making a new one will just be a bureaucratic formality. Being under CSB is a vestige of when countering the gender gap was seen as primarily an objective to remove bias from Misplaced Pages because everything was written from a male centric viewpoint. Now, it is a moral goal unto itself. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 14:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
OK. We got Chess/Grognard down for a "moral crusade" . Only other definitive reason give below was regarding systemic bias as a content issue vs. gender gap as a participation issue. (I'm pretty sure it will do both in either place.) For future reference I think it's probable that most of those who signed on to this specific propsoal did so for practical not moral reasons. (Please feel free to explain reasons further.) So any future naysayers can argue with Chess/Grognard on the morality issue. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
@Carolmooredc: It's not a "morality" issue, but a practicality and categorization issue. Currently, as other people said, Meta-wiki has a gender gap project. A major focus of the 2014/2015 year for the WMF is to fix the gender gap, and this task force seems to have grown enough to become a WikiProject, as well as having a goal important enough to be a WikiProject. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 01:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I was just quoting you. In any case, right now there's not a clear consensus to change it. Perhaps we should wait anyway until the conclusion of the ongoing Gender Gap Task Force arbitration Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Don't archive yet, bot. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 04:55, Friday, December 27, 2024 (UTC)

I've been watching this page and thinking about this question. To me, there's more than one aspect to closing the gender gap: there's increasing the number of article about women and "women-friendly" topics, there's increasing the number of female editors, there's working to change processes to make the project more welcoming for all, and there's probably even more parts to this whole thing. IMHO, each of these aspects is a task in and of itself and could be its own task force under a broader, over-arching Gender Gap WikiProject. Therefore, I think this Task Force should be spun out into a WikiProject. Ca2james (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll

  • Perhaps we could have quick straw poll to see whether there's support.
I agree, although I would leave a redirect at a minimum, and possibly a placeholder page with a link.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Polish monument to Misplaced Pages

Read about this on Facebook Misplaced Pages Women facebook page and now on Talk:Jimbo Wales. As I asked there, Are those figures genderless or castrati? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I've dropped in precisely because of this. I believe they're all men. Can you believe that? I mean ... um ... . It's a very impressive work, and someone has done very well to produce it, but I couldn't promote it or feel anything but embarrassment. It's sad. Tony (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
They don't seem to have anything between their legs, they might have been castrated and penectomized. Violence against male sexual organs is not cool. --Pudeo' 15:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
They're obviously male - not genderless. They have narrow hips, wide shoulders, and - most telling - crotch bulges. None appear to have breasts. Lightbreather (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
That's right, this is Catholic Poland. Not Dutch Amsterdam or Venice Italy. So of course they aren't going to show the explicit sexual details. OK, perhaps we can indicate to the Powers that Be that a nice letter explaining how they should have at least one woman in there would be really great! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. (It's a piece of art -- not a social statement. If the artist had made one or two of the figures explicitly women, and these figures are together lifting overhead a heavy globe, it would be a distraction to the art theme. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Imagine the Misplaced Pages sh*tF*t if it had been obviously all women by a woman artist? In any case, art can be crappy and people can say so. It's still legal. In any case, I thought it was going up a year from now, but it's this October, so a bit late. But hopefully they have or will have a plaque mentioning women editors. Actually, it's probably best that Polish Misplaced Pages women editors approach whom so ever. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Yoo, ha. Found the Polish article on the statue and asked the question on the talk page, using my best Google Translate polish. :-) Better late than never noticed a Polish Gender studies group so left message there too. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Update: Message on my talk page says an earlier model shared by someone on Polish Misplaced Pages shows a couple women, but they don't know if til they see the actual statue unveiled. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Queen Bodicca doing something men would typically be assigned to do, for the raw muscle power needed and managing not to distract from the art theme. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if that's what someone said about it or speculation. Anyway, maybe the women were too big bosomed for the Polish politicians so they demanded it more gender neutral. We shall wait expectantly for Oct. 22. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Final momument was unveiled and looks like it has at least one, may two women in it, according to a talk page update. Yeah! Article on Polish Misplaced Pages with photo. Images.google search of "Polish momument Misplaced Pages" gets some more good returns. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

NPOV: pornography portal/ project, but no anti-pornography portal / project?

Should there be a Pornography portal / project and an Anti-pornography portal / project, or should the existing one be re-named "Pornography debates" or something similar, with more being added to the anti-pornography POV? Before anyone says, "Just because it is called the pornography portal / project doesn't mean that it is pro-porn." I would say look at the project's scope and the portal's list of categories. There isn't much for those looking for the anti-pornography POV. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a need for the anti-side to be presented. I'm also intrigued by the misogynist troll dramafest that will undoubtably erupt if either method is tried, but given that there are only 24 hours in a day and some of us have to eat and sleep as well as work for a living, I'd recommend waiting until Gamergate and the ArbCom case die down so those of us who are useful in a street fight aren't pulled 16 ways by other dramas the way we are at the moment. There are more trolls, and they don't have to eat or sleep as much because I suspect that they all just live in their mommy's basement. In the meantime, I'd spend some time and energy finding more allies who will be useful so that when you do drop the hammer, you don't have to fly solo, but you also won't have flaky allies who will pull your efforts off into some sort of stupid thing that is mostly a personality conflict like this stupid ArbCom case. Montanabw 21:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
First, can we be civil with others' proposal and not insult both alleged pornography users and allegedly flakey "allies" or call the project stupid? It's really uncalled for and tacky.
In any case, it's only worth creating the "anti-pornography project" if a) you have enough articles to support a project and b) enough participants interested in keeping it going and and c) enough energy to put up with the brouhaha. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
WikiProjects shouldn't have a point of view. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I should have said: and if you survive a challenge to the existence of the project based on whatever arguments editors might offer. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking aloud more than anything. It just occured to me that there is a portal for Conservatism (selected article: the Bricker Amendment), and a portal for Socialism (selected biography: Karl Marx).
Selected articles / biographies on the pornography portal are generally about porn stars, porn films and - a newly added feature - erotic literature. When anything relating to anti-pornography is featured then there is an over-arching tone of "that bunch of censorship nutters" e.g. radical feminists (for 'radical' read 'lunatic'). The second paragraph of the article on pornography is typical of how the anti-pornography movement tend to be portrayed, 'various groups ... with varying degrees of success ... censorship and other legal restraints to publication' rather than 'a number of associations and organisations ... achiving success in reducing the amount of material that they regard as harmful'. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 08:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Since even voluntary censorship of viewpoints is such a big "no no" on Misplaced Pages - especially if it's censorship of things demeaning to women - a more successful approach might be to focus on pornography-related issues. For example, the addictive aspects of pornography, the psychological reasons males have poor relationships with women and thus are sexually frustrated, the "male surplus" issue leading to too few women available for males during the last 30 odd years, and any and all studies indicating a relationship of pornography to any sort of violence against others (women, children, men, animals). Articles about, and Project/portal mentions of, the dysfunctional aspects of pornography is something they can't complain is censorship. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Keep as is - I see Anti-Porn categories within the Porn portal, which seems the way reality is as well -- the anti is reaction to and part of porn generally, not a topic that would exist separate of the porn nor could porn ignore or not have anti happen. A title change to 'discussion' seems inappropriate as not expectable -- if the portal is only to discussions then is there to be another portal actually on porn itself is too conflusing, simpler to have the one portal on the simpler title and everything there. I think the current Portal title is the best fit and that there should not be a separation to two portals. Markbassett (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

RFC on gender based category

Please participate in RFC regarding whether or not the article 2014 Isla Vista killings (the killing spree of Elliot Rodgers) should be in the category "Violence against men" . This category has been described as a category: "for articles on the topic of sexual or gender-based violence against men or boys". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

BoboMeowCat is directly involved in this discussion, proposed the RfC, actively thinks that the cat should be removed, etc. Tutelary (talk) 02:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Readers are free to read my (and Tutelary's) vote on RFC if for some reason they are interested in personal opinions, but Tutelary your comment here seems inappropriate because my notice of RFC was neutrally worded and in accordance with RFC guidelines for community input. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Who else but involved people post notifications? Please, no more challenging proper notifications here. If it's really a problem you can find an admin to warn the participant. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this is neutrally worded. However I fail to see how this is relevant to the interests of the GGTF. If this RfC is perceived to be a battle of the sexes request, this might be perceived as canvassing. But I'll AGF and assume BoboMeowCat was a good kitty (unlike mine who just tried to escape) and notified a wide variety of projects.Two kinds of porkBacon 04:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification: The talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Misplaced Pages collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion. Nothing in policy about variety of pages or the topic at hand, be it battle of the sexes or global warming. The question may be a more philosophical issue of gender gap coverage than others, but it is relevant. I myself am undecided about the whole thing and raised various issues there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Not canvassing. I also posted RfC notices to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject California. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard (because there has been talk of making a separate bio page for perp, Elliot Rodger). Trying to get as many eyes on this as possible, because we've had issues in past because we can not reach consensus, and previous postings to noticeboard didn't get new eyes on the issue (same people debated same things, but just moved it to original research noticeboard). Posted it here because it is a gender based category, and this is only gender wikiproject I'm aware of. If you can suggest any wikiprojects or pages that relate, please do so, or even repost this notice elsewhere yourself. The wider the community input the better --BoboMeowCat (talk) 04:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Notifications need to be balanced and non-partisan. Ideally a posting here would be balanced elsewhere. I too dont have a suggestion, but the NPOV board might have an idea. I'm not coming after you, just pointing out how you could do better the next time.Two kinds of porkBacon 04:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Why wouldn't people reading this page be concerned about gender issues involving men as well as women? Seems like the people who died in this unfortunate event deserve respect regardless of their gender. If you think another group of editors would be interested, by all means add the notice there. Making this site work involves finishing the work others have started for us, and explaining what we are doing, so they can do it themselves next time. (It's easier to learn wiki editing by viewing examples than from explanations.) -- Djembayz (talk) 12:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Do Wikipedians/WMF prefer arguing to actually working on fixing the problem?

Surprising discovery this morning. The page you are now reading, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, has been viewed 3909 times in the last 30 days. By contrast, the Gender gap strategy page, where WMF is recruiting volunteers to actually work on improving the situation, has been viewed only 4 times today. What gives? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm like most people, they see the word "meta" attached to anything and say meh.Two kinds of porkBacon 12:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Could you explain more? If this is something that people actually care about, what's the difference between it being posted on Meta instead of here? Should it go somewhere else? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Wikimedia.org really is used more by those interested in foundation work or working among various foundation projects. I don't think much controversial happens there.
English Misplaced Pages is watched by tens of millions. This task force is doubtless watched or visited regularly by lots of editors, admins, researchers, journalists, government agents, etc. interested in what uppity females, supportive males and potential or actual trolls are up to. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages articles are visited by tens of millions, mostly only folks who have edited read talk pages and then only to catch up on the soap operas. J3Mrs (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
According to stats.grok.se, the page has been viewed 139 times in October, and as of today, 661 times in the last 30 days. (I think I've visited it myself at least twice in the last month.) isaacl (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
To get back to Djembayz question, I think if you read my timeline at Arbitration you'll see that bad faith editors with snide questions and criticisms have (and still are) discouraged and disgusted editors interested in figuring out goals and projects. So a lot of people pretty much have given up on the project cause they are tired of the fighting. That leaves some of us to be scapegoated for others' bad faith disruption. I'm pretty fed up myself; just reacting to random stuff that's posted. Maybe Arbitrators will understand. I'm sure if a bunch of women went to the WP:WikiProject Men's Issues and started similar stuff, we'd have been blocked within days and there would be no need for Arbitration. Hmmm, how come men get to be men and women end up "gender"? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sue Gardner article

I just was looking at it for a factoid and corrected a ce. I did notice it says nothing in the text about the WMF Gender Gap project, though that's doubtless what she is best known for. And doesn't mention why she left or what she moved on to doing, though User:Sue Gardner gets into that. Research from RS needed. So if someone wants to update it before I get a chance... :-) Lots of refs on her at Draft Resources page, among other places. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Research and Data Showcase

Today's mw:Analytics/Research and Data/Showcase presentation began with a report on word choices by male and female editors. My oversimplified summary is that women here use somewhat more personal pronouns and positive words than male editors. Overall, the communication patterns aren't too different from what is found in other research, although our experienced women editors may be less uncertain or anxious than women from other places. If anyone's interested, it can be watched now on YouTube. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't had a chance to look at the video. While the report may say that experiences are similar to those found in other research, but it emphasizes other differences:
"Emotions under Discussion: Gender, Status and Communication in Misplaced Pages" By David Laniado
I will present a large-scale analysis of emotional expression and communication style of editors in Misplaced Pages discussions. The talk will focus especially on how emotion and dialogue differ depending on the status, gender, and the communication network of the about 12000 editors who have written at least 100 comments on the English Misplaced Pages's article talk pages. The analysis is based on three different predefined lexicon-based methods for quantifying emotions: ANEW, LIWC and SentiStrength. The results unveil significant differences in the emotional expression and communication style of editors according to their status and gender, and can help to address issues such as gender gap and editor stagnation.
So it does look quite interesting. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

New "resources" articles, research, and projects pages

Thinking about past discussion of how to use this mass of material at my "Draft resources page", I realized the best thing would be to create three pages of the least controversial links:

At the original "Draft resources page" I have left the material that does not directly mention Misplaced Pages or that is not "reliable sources".

  • Related projects
  • Research studies/writings on similar topics and/or communities
  • Books
  • Interesting blog and other articles

We could create a GGTF/Related resources page to be called "Related projects and writings" if people want. Though it come become way too much of kitchen sink, in case people want to think about how to describe what should or should not be there. Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Carol, this sounds like a great idea. Tony (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

IEG research project—midpoint report

This may be of interest. Tony (talk) 00:40, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb

I encountered Canberra Wikibomb last August and mentioned it on this page, see archive. I have now noticed WP:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb which concerns a gender diversity event on 31 October 2014. The August event involved many new female editors creating articles on women scientists, and the Sydney event will presumably be similar. Participants here may like to help in some way because this is a good opportunity to recruit female editors. Their main problem is the complete culture shock concerning what writing an article for Misplaced Pages involves, from trivia like wikisyntax to more important issues like NPOV language and copyvios. Johnuniq (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be good to advertise this on the Australian noticeboard on en.WP. Don't bother with the chapter: it's dead. Tony (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Lorie Masters for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Lorie Masters is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lorie Masters until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Survey re: gender gap on EN Wiki

As a part of my IEG, Women & Misplaced Pages, I've created a survey re: the gender gap on the English language Misplaced Pages. Any and all editors (of all genders and sexes from all countries) who contribute to EN Wiki are welcome to take it--and participation is much appreciated!

Note: A few participants have had issues with the survey, which is run via Qualtrics, timing out. I know that Qualtrics doesn't work well on Chrome, so you may want to try IE or Safari. --Mssemantics (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Mssemantics@ this page is a redirect which Ghostery blocks. Would be good if that could be fixed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC).
Thanks, Rich. Pinging Mssemantics to make sure she sees this. SlimVirgin 01:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Rich. This talk page or the Qualtrics survey page? Thanks! --Mssemantics (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Mssemantics@ The Qualtrics survey. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).
Slim Virgin@ the {{@}} template pings too. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).
Hi Rich, I'm not sure it does (I didn't get your ping). I thought I should let you know in case you're relying on it. There's a list of the things that work at WP:ECHO. SlimVirgin 20:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Many thanks, I was confused. I acutally should have been using {{Ping}} (aka reply to). Like this @SlimVirgin:. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC).
Hi Rich. It looks like the issue between Qualtrics and Ghostery is something I can't fix. I'd recommend opening the link with a broswer in which you aren't running Ghostery, or I can send you a direct link to the survey via Wiki mail. Apologies! --Mssemantics (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh I can work around this stuff! I just want you to be able to get the largest sample possible. Fixing would be up to qualtrics it's a shame so many large sites abuse the web. I had 32 trackers on one major web site - WP is probably the only place that comes up with 0 junk. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC).

Nomination of Pilar Montero for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pilar Montero is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pilar Montero until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.Maranjosie (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Octavia Butler petition

Thought some of you might be interested in this petition to make Octavia Butler the World Fantasy Award statue instead of H.P. Lovecraft, who was racist: http://www.change.org/p/the-world-fantasy-award-make-octavia-butler-the-wfa-statue-instead-of-lovecraft Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know, Maranjosie. SlimVirgin 01:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Create category

Could somebody please create the category 18th-century women scientists? There are a lot of women we could add, and it seems odd that 17th-century women scientists is a category but 18th-century is not. I would create it myself but I'm not really good at these things. Thanks. Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I did it. Maranjosie (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Need active peer reviewers

The projects Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Feminism/Peer review, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women's History/Peer review, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender Studies/Peer review really need active peer reviewers, so if some people could click on those articles and add their usernames under the Active Peer reviewers section that would be great. Thanks!

Quote today about taking online harassment seriously / women being driven offline

"There’s a sort of sentiment that online harassment is not real, that we shouldn’t take it seriously. But, you know, as you just showed, Elliot Rodger had his manifesto online and his videos online before he actually took action. So, this is a larger culture of women, you know, one, not being believed about their experiences with online harassment, and when it is seen that they actually are being attacked in really vicious ways, it’s just brushed off as, "Oh, it’s just the Internet," or, you know, it’s just boys being boys, when that’s really not what’s happening here. These threats are very real, whether they are committed or not."

-- Anita Sarkeesian, in today's interview, "Women Are Being Driven Offline ..." -- Djembayz (talk) 00:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Djembayz. She argues that women are being driven offline, and that women who watch other women being attacked question whether they want to participate or speak up themselves. SlimVirgin 01:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Yuuuuuup. It's a bummer. But as an optimist, I always think there's a solution. Though this isn't quite the space you can talk about them. I'm going to have to try that site (Women.com or something?) you linked to a while back. Feel free to share it again. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
There's really no connection between manifestos of killers and the Internet. The Unabomber had one, written on paper. Nonetheless there are very serious threats made online, by email, and amazingly social media in all its guises.
In the UK "credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking" are punishable by up to 6 months (soon to be 2 years) imprisonment, under the Communications Act 2003#Malicious communications. I believe there are existing laws in most countries, that criminalise threats of physical harm, at the very least.
Is it credible that women are being "driven offline"? Well in the sense that some, demographically small, number of women (and men) might choose to disengage from social media, very likely.
In terms of the Misplaced Pages Gender Gap we (en:wp community and the WMF) have zero tolerance for threats of physical harm, pretty low tolerance of doxxing and outing, (notable exceptions are a couple of Arbcom screw-ups) and the community will not stand for overt harassment or wiki-stalking.
I'm not sure, then, that this adds anything to the resolution of the key Gender Gap questions, except to support the background concept that the Internet at large is not always a nice place.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC).
Zero tolerance of threats of harm? Unless you've got friends in high places and claim you were under stress and it was a joke, you mean.
Re no toleration for wikihounding, it took a year of my complaints to admins, at ANI and even at a past arbitration to get a hounder off my back. Considering the outrageous reaction of one of his buddies, I felt like this must be a "Misplaced Pages first", a man being sanctioned for Wikihounding a woman. I noticed another woman didn't get a guy off her back till it went to arbitration. Makes me want to do that analysis of ANIs for double standards vs. males and women (or push Foundation to pay someone to do it) even more. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Carol, I am a big fan of yours, the work you have done to reduce Misplaced Pages's gender gap has been inspirational. Keep up the good work! - Gem FightMisogynyNow (talk) 22:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Carol I have no idea what you are talking about. If someone made a credible threat to harm you, your first course of action is to contact the FBI. No on knows more that I the flawed nature of Misplaced Pages's governance, but oblique references to "bad things that have happened" does not contribute to a constructive discussion.
If you want to do an analysis of ANI's for double standards (and there has been some work on administrator responses to other editors by gender), that would be excellent, a positive contribution to establishing factually, rather than anecdotally, the editing environment.
You will need to record for each section at ANI, the gender of the person being reported (I would discard sections reporting more than one person), the gender of the person doing the reporting (for "boomerang" cases), and the outcome. You may also want to record the gender of the actioning admin, if any, or closing admin if no action is taken. you will also need to decide what constitute an "action" clearly "blocking" is relatively easily measurable, things like "warning" are less so, and for something like that you need a methodology to ensure that a consistent measure is applied (for example that it is mentioned in a section close, or that an admin says "I have left a warning on their talk page").
If existing research on blocks is anything to go by, the ratios are likely to be fairly consistent for blocking, there is also some research on warnings templates, but I don't remember those results.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC).
Thanks for comments. Not sure how research on warning templates related (it was by gender?) I assume that would be on wikimedia.org if I wanted to look? Maybe after the current GGTF Arbitration whoever's left standing can encourage other researchers, including those working on the study of wikipedia sexism, can do it. I mean we do want to help outside researchers don't we? Or is that a "no free speech" privately off Misplaced Pages provision that only applies to GGTF that we haven't heard about? First time it occurred to me. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Internet harassment studies, Slate, Daily Beast articles

I notice we seem to be veering a bit from women on Misplaced Pages to women on the internet in general. Unfortunately, studies on harassment on the Internet in general are ambiguous.

Seems that quite often men actually get worse treatment, but women are affected more. So it's hard to tell whether that helps us here on Misplaced Pages all that much, and I think is a reason for us to focus on specific Misplaced Pages effects, that are easier to pin down. --GRuban (talk) 18:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think they are all that ambiguous.
  • Even just looking at the title of the first one gives a slightly different perspective: On the Internet, Men Are Called Names. Women Are Stalked and Sexually Harassed reads: 44 percent of men and 37 percent of women who use the Internet reported experiencing harassment there. Men “are somewhat more likely than women to experience certain less severe forms of harassment like name-calling and being embarrassed,” Pew found, but they’re also more likely to receive physical threats—I’d call that “severe.” Meanwhile, “women are significantly more likely than men to report being stalked or sexually harassed on the internet.”
Considering women don't tend to jump into a profile political debates and stick to more social media situations, it's not surprising they get fewer threats. If a similar percentage entered those controversial areas the number of women threatened would shift considerably. As I can attest being active here and elsewhere and getting dozen of threats of even the most innocuous statements so guy didn't like.
  • And the second one is about a tiny sample: "a fairly small sample of British celebrities, journalists and politicians whose Twitter timelines were tracked over a two-week period, its findings are nonetheless interesting. On the whole, 2.5 percent of the tweets sent to the men but fewer than 1 percent of those sent to women were classified as abusive."
Again, did they compare what the two were writing about? Some topics raise more hackles than others, no matter who is writing them. Just often bigger hackles if it's a woman. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:46, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Point well taken, GRuban. Do you have any particular specific Misplaced Pages-related effects in mind?
Let's say this site reflects a more general trend, in which women tend to find harassment more distressing than men, even though men may be receiving more physical threats and name calling. If women are sufficiently distressed to stand up and demand a friendlier, more collaborative atmosphere, wouldn't that benefit men also? For long-term editor retention, quality improvement and content expansion, doesn't it make sense to branch out beyond the community of mean-spirited people who like nothing better than nasty arguements? -- Djembayz (talk) 01:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh, entirely agree that civility is great all around. My point is just that treatment of women on the Internet in general is much more complex than on Misplaced Pages in particular, and especially bringing up mass murderers is, hopefully, even less relevant to our work closing the gap here. I truly truly hope! It's not as if we have any shortage of specific Misplaced Pages effects to discuss, from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force/research to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force. --GRuban (talk) 02:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb signup

The University of Sydney is hosting a gender diversity editathon on Friday October 31st about women currently or historically connected with the university. The project page is at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb. Any Wikipedians who can attend on the day would be much appreciated (sign up now!) to help train newcomers. If you would like to contribute online (sign up now!), pick a subject and start your research. --99of9 (talk) 00:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Good, although already mentioned above. People here might like to comment on what advice should be offered to new female editors—for example, guidance on selection of a user name or on what should be posted on a user page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm, would it be too aggressive to consider other forms of conceptual "Wikibombs"? Such as creating memes to facilitate positive change vis-à-vis the gender gap problem? NeoFeminism directly <redacted>, for example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:IshtarPoster.jpg
I completely understand that while highly effective, some may consider this approach <redacted>. This represents a tough philosophical quandary for #HeForShe #NeoFeminists such as myself. Do my colleagues and I use every tool at our disposal to affect positive change at Misplaced Pages, or do we hold back until <redacted>? GemSophos (talk) 04:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Er ... Gem? Did you just post with the <redacted> already in? I'm afraid I can't quite understand what you're getting at. Though your poster seems rather frightening. --GRuban (talk) 21:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
You are the prestidigitator? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

HELP!

Just a quick update on this (sorry for the double posting earlier)... it is going to be the biggest editathon I have ever attended. There are already 36 signups on the project page, and we are expecting somewhere nearer to 100 on the day!? We will have a decent number of experienced editors on site, but we will be stretched. Anyone who can provide online support 03:00-07:00 UTC tomorrow (Friday) would be much appreciated. Please add your name to the project page with a note so that I know who we can call on. Here's some ways you can help:

  1. Any sandbox started by a wikibomb participant should be added to Category:University of Sydney Wikibomb 2014 so that we can all find it.
  2. Monitor These Related Changes to look out for editors having trouble.
  3. Write (kind) sandbox_talk page comments if you see promotional language. It seems that some participants are intending to write articles about their friend/colleague/boss. The organizing team now all understand how much COI editing is discouraged, but I'm afraid academics are harder to herd than cats. We are at least trying to ensure that everyone declares their employer on their userpage, and declares any COI they have on the article talk.
  4. Assess articles' readiness to move into mainspace (also post a note on the talk page). Experienced Wikipedians will do these moves, but for COI and general stress relief, it would be good to have third party eyes over it.
  5. Categorize, prettify, wikidatify, wikiprojectify ({{WP Australia}}{{WP Biography}} etc) any articles that do make it into mainspace. We will not have time to concentrate on any of these things.
  6. Ping me or another Wikipedian if you spot any problems.
  7. Publicise on Twitter (#Wikibomb) with a link to the project page

Thanks for helping! --99of9 (talk) 10:37, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Feminists Engage Misplaced Pages

Here is the list of red-links from that event in 2013, that may pique someone's interest. (#TooFew)

Note: I rescued Chela Sandoval from AfC - other articles may exist in draft space.

Not impressed that these are still red links - makes me doubt whether those who put the event together actually take this seriously.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

Actually, these red links are the way editathons work! You add way more links than you expect to finish, to ensure there is a variety of material that will be of interest to attendees. Whatever red links you don't finish get picked up by someone else, and put in a place where they'll attract interest, just as you have done.
Editathons are more like a drop-in quilting bee where everyone pitches in for a few hours on an existing project. You need either skilled editors or subject experts to get major results / outcomes. When the right people show up, lots happens; other times, with newbies, the event is mostly training, coaching, and general outreach. (A few newbies have told me they decided it's easier to donate money than edit themselves ... :)
Established editors may or may not change their editing patterns to finish off an editathon task list. More likely they go back to whatever they like to do after the event.
For sustained efforts on a specific task list, you need a series of events.
The program evaluation folks would have more statistics ... Have you considered holding an event or two yourself? Even an editor as prolific as you could use a boost from others willing to pitch in on your areas of interest :) -- Djembayz (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Of course, you are right, and indeed I have looked at the results of every editathon I could find, up to a few months ago. And this editathon did well, as did the series of women's ediathons earlier this year - in terms of "work produced during the session". My comments were not made in a vacuum, however, one of the editors Moya Bailey (who probably comes near needing an article of her own) specifically spoke to Al-Jareeza about the event and stressed the Disability justice article as being important. Hence my disappointment that, not only was it not created during the editathon, but has not been created in the 18 months since.
It seems that it is, just maybe, also easier to organise an editathon than to edit oneself.
(And if anyone wants me to organise/run an editathon, provided they can arrange to pay my fares, I would be happy to do so. If not WMUK does them by the bucketload.)
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

Notifications

In case anyone else, like me, keeps mistyping when using WP:ECHO, George Orwell III and Quiddity (WMF) suggested adding this to your common.js: 

// Add custom Character Inserter entries, to the end of the first 2 groupings
window.charinsertCustom = { 
	"Insert": ' Mention: {\{u|+}}  {\{ping|+}}', 
	"Wiki markup": ' Mention: {\{u|+}}  {\{ping|+}}' 
};

At the bottom of the edit window, it adds "Mention: {{u|}} {{ping|}}". You place the cursor where you want to insert it, click on {{u|}} or {{ping|}}, and add the name, which is incredibly useful. Thank you, Quiddity and George! SlimVirgin 20:44, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikiproject and task force guides

Better late than never discovered Misplaced Pages Wikiproject Council guide which includes handy items like: Topic coordination; Inter-WikiProject coordination and collaboration; Article tagging; Role of the WikiProject Council (when conflict between projects); bots; creating project details. There's even a whole page on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Guide/Task_forces. (There's like 130+ listed!) Just put it on the main page so we don't forget where it is. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Research article: Emotions under Discussion

Iosub, Daniela; Laniado, David; Castillo, Carlos; Morell, Mayo Fuster; Kaltenbrunner, Andreas (August 20, 2014). "Emotions under Discussion: Gender, Status and Communication in Online Collaboration". PLoS ONE. 9 (8). doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0104880.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Conclusions/Significance

Emotional expression and linguistic style in online collaboration differ substantially depending on the contributors' gender and status, and on the communication network. This should be taken into account when analyzing collaborative success, and may prove insightful to communities facing gender gap and stagnation in contributor acquisition and participation levels.

--72.223.98.118 (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

In view of the generally negative atmosphere that some seem to experience around here, I would like to draw attention to something positive in this report:

The largest human encyclopedia ever written, Misplaced Pages, is one of the most prominent examples of successful online collaboration to date. In fact, considering the thousands of failed online collaboration efforts, its size and success are quite miraculous. This noteworthy performance has motivated a flurry of research activity on topics ranging from leadership behaviors to motivations to contribute.

This would seem to suggest that we are doing some things right. We should bear this in mind. --Boson (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on "Today's featured article"

Participants here may want to look at this example of comments on today's featured article requests. Getting some different perspectives on whether or how this sort of thing feeds in to the Gender Gap and atmosphere for female editors could be constructive. -- Djembayz (talk) 12:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Per helpful recommendation from Djembayz, I've removed the image of the male author from the blurb text. I've replaced it with a free-use-licensed image of the book cover itself. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to Djembayz. Once again I'm thankful to Djembayz and happy we were able to obtain a free-use-license for the book cover. And as an aside I personally think this particular Gender gap task force does good work on Misplaced Pages, so thank you all. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Considerably less objectionable (to me), and more on-topic, but still not convinced this sort of mainpage material does much to improve our standing among prospective female editors. Any opinions from other GGTF participants? -- Djembayz (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
(As an aside: If it turns out that GGTF readers are too intimidated or displeased to post any opposing opinion on that page, we would be well served to remind ourselves where we appeal when we need someone to stick up for women's honor, safety, and dignity on this site: the ANI noticeboard, which contains exchanges like this one). -- Djembayz (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I think I had an attack of free speech! I wrote: Oppose: Just reinforces image of Misplaced Pages as a bunch of 15-25 year olds who've never gotten laid and may never get laid, and thus go in for juvenile jokes about sex, their hand, "tw*t", "c*nt", etc. Now that's the kind of freedom of speech on Misplaced Pages I'm talking about! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
@Djembayz:I must admit I'm a bit disappointed that after successfully addressing your complaint about the image of the man smiling (the author of the book), and after I went and contacted the publisher company, and got them to release the image by a free-use license, and removed the image of the man smiling, and replaced it with the book cover as you had recommended, that this did not change your views that much. Perhaps you could revisit and at the very least note that it is now "considerably less objectionable" to you? I'd appreciate that, especially after the work I did to remove that image and replace it with another one, because of your comment, Djembayz. Thank you. — Cirt (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I think a better title for the book would be "FUCK: Human devolution to Idiocracy". Having said that, I use it all the time myself, but I know it makes me stupider every time I use it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I like that movie quite a bit, Carolmooredc, and think Idiocracy is quite an interesting commentary on our society. But as I noted, below, there have been many influential women who were (and still are) notable, famous, and quite strong proponents of freedom of speech and anti-censorship. As I noted, below, one was Judith Krug, and I took that article to Good Article quality after finding it at the category created by Lquilter, Category:Free speech activists. — Cirt (talk) 21:22, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Just offhand I would say the article needs to be moved from Fuck: Word Taboo and Protecting Our First Amendment Liberties => Fuck: Word Taboo and Protecting Our First Amendment Liberties (book). Compare Jesse Sheidlower's The F-Word (book). The current title fails both WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISION naming criteria for a title. ...and why would anyone want to feature a book from 2009 *now*? —Neotarf (talk) 02:15, 31 October 2014 (UTC).
We're about to feature an Australian Prime Minister from 1972. HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Um, no, Neotarf, there are zero other books on the planet by that exact same title. — Cirt (talk) 03:31, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
You're probably thinking of WP:DISAMBIG. There's always Friedman's The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century, aka The World is Flat as a model. —Neotarf (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Your example should be moved to the full title if there are other books with the same shorter title. — Cirt (talk) 03:57, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
No, that's not how naming works at all, but I don't work on move requests anymore and I'm not particularly interested in yet another discussion about Recognizability and Conciseness. The place for that is the article's talk page, or maybe at WP:TITLE, where you will find many people knowledgeable about these conventions. If you want to list the article for discussion, the instructions are at WP:RM. —Neotarf (talk) 13:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
On the principle of "do as you would be done unto", I think we should avoid statements of the form
". . . reinforces the image of <group> as a bunch of <discriminatory phrase> who . . ."
whether the group be Wikipedians, feminists, or whatever, and
whether the discriminatory phrase be related to sex, ethnic or social origin, disability, age, sexual orientation, or whatever,
even (or especially) if we do not share such prejudices.
This is one of those silly discussions that seems to be based on an assumed premise, but without evidence. That an article has the word "fuck" in the title is somehow presented as proof that we hate women here. That's nonsense. That proposal is not an anti-woman one. It may be anti-prude, whether they be female or male, but that is surely an entirely different thing. Are the opponents here arguing that all women are prudes? HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh, great, the "prude" thing again. Ninety per cent of Misplaced Pages's current aggravations could be eliminated by adopting a new section to WP:What Misplaced Pages is not called "Misplaced Pages is not a place to try to figure out sex," although I suppose that is already covered by WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK and WP:NOTTHERAPY. In my neck of the woods, some children get fixated on Bad Words in about the 6th grade, until they get bored with it and move on to some new social experiment. If their parents are attentive, they may move out of the awkward phase more quickly. Hmm, maybe a section called WP:NOTPARENTING...—Neotarf (talk) 14:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea what that post is trying to say. It doesn't seem like a coherent response to what I wrote, nor does it seem to have any relevance to the article being discussed. HiLo48 (talk) 16:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
My pointy-point above (and this is one of few times I really see myself being pointy, mea culpa) is that an obsession with curse words about sex is a symptom of sexual frustration by a certain larger percentage of the male population than the female population. (To quote a song I wrote in my 20s "girls can get it easier than boys can".) Be aware of that and don't impose it on Misplaced Pages. We don't see women trying, for example, to keep getting articles about menopause, PMS, sanitary napkins, and other "eeeeuuuuwwww" type subjects as featured articles. Like certain proposed principles say, let's be frank here about the topic at hand. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:07, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I think getting Menopause, Premenstrual syndrome and Sanitary napkins to featured article status is an excellent idea. I see the first two of those are already class B and high-importance. There must be some physicians and other relevant professionals on the task force. --Boson (talk) 18:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I actually was thinking about terms females use that also could use a book, but this is a family centered media. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Like Boson, I too think articles on Menopause, Premenstrual syndrome and Sanitary napkins should be a high profile part of a quality encyclopaedia. They impact on everyone, at least indirectly. I would also like to see an encyclopaedic article on the terms (all?) females use, as distinct from terms (all?) males use. Calling this "family centered media" as an excuse to avoid explaining it is in direct contradiction to WP:NOTCENSORED. As for your somewhat Freudian explanation of the use of swear words, I'd like to see a reference for that. HiLo48 (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
You might try the Wikipediocracy discussion about it, but if you go in there calling them "prudes" and "Freudians" I doubt they will be very polite. —Neotarf (talk) 22:00, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
That's not a constructive response to all that was in my post. Is "prude" a rude word too? If so, what's a nicer one for people who insist on telling others how they must communicate? And I didn't call anyone Freudian. I described an explanation given as part of someone else's post as "somewhat Freudian". That's a very different thing. Editors who misrepresent my posts come across to me as either dishonestly manipulative, or incompetent. HiLo48 (talk) 22:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Fine. Then don't look at it. You're welcome. —Neotarf (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Another pointless post. Please try to have a discussion. That's what this page is for. HiLo48 (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Study of gender differences on Misplaced Pages discussion pages

Via a Wikipediocracy forum link, I noted this Spanish news article on a recent study that asserts that women are more constructive editors on Misplaced Pages discussion pages than men. Edits of 12,000 editors on the English wikipedia with at least 100 edits were reviewed. Nine percent of these editors were identified as women. The research paper is in English and can be found here.--Milowent • 13:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Pretty soon I'll update the research page with last few entries. But a dozen plus editors are trying to get me topic banned from here and even site banned (since they know I'll never totally quit). So others may have to keep adding material to:
Don't cry for me, GGTF, if my head goes to the chopping block for thinking that incivility and harassment of women editors are just as important GGTF issues as the number and quality of articles about women. Some even may want women shoved into a ghetto of only working on articles about women. By we also have a right to edit in articles in the political and economic spheres where males dominate and some (not all) want to keep it that way. And they'll use nitpicking and personal attacks and harassment to drive us off.
But being an optimist, I say, ONWARD AND UPWARD! If the worst happens, I'll have the time and energy to take my opinionated uppity woman act into the larger world. Plus one can still do GGTF stuff off wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The basic flaw in that research is the problem of identifying the female editors, since it is well known that a number of users who identify as women online are actually men, who are trying to "act female" whatever that is. So until you are able to identify the actual gender of users in real life, say at a live WP event instead of by analyzing edits, the results are going to be skewed in favor of reinforcing rigid gender stereotypes. And then you get self-fulfilling prophecy, echo chamber, etc. —Neotarf (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
RE: original topic of Spanish study saying "women are more constructive editor". Neotarf is correct about the "identifying the female editors" of course. A careful analysis of overlapping findings from various studies, many of which have the same flaws, still might come up with some interesting findings that also might overlap with outside studies where the sex of the editors actually is known.
The reprint linked does confirm my own experience of feeling less under pressure in discussions dominated by women and more collaborative males. Unfortunately, once I get in a high testosterone competitive atmosphere my own abundant testosterone heats up. Anyway, there are some other relevant studies.
Off the top of my head (since who has time to review all that good stuff on the GGTF/research page), I think the finding that editors who say they are women tend to make larger edits and not change them as much as those who say they are males. This would accord with outside findings that a) more women have advanced degrees and therefore may have more educational and research/writing experience and b) women are more careful to vet and cross check their work and present it as whole cloth because they also tend to be nitpicked and criticized more, so they want to have as few errors as possible.
In general I tend to do the latter myself when I'm allowed to focus on editing, creating a couple of paragraphs at at time or even revamping a whole article in draft form, polishing it for days and zapping it up there. (Though over the years I've taken a bit more to the alleged "male style" of just throwing stuff up there with a reference and seeing what happens.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:21, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think you need to physically confirm the actual gender of every editor by personal observation to have a valid study; every phone-based political poll bases gender on self-reporting. However, I agree it could be a weak point. The study says this on the subject: "While information on editor status is available through the Misplaced Pages API, collecting gender information is less straightforward and can prove challenging. In this case gender identification was possible using a combination of methods, ranging from using Misplaced Pages's API to crowdsourcing the gender identification task to Crowdflower (see for more details)." That explanation doesn't tell me what they really did.--Milowent • 19:53, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure the real live researchers have a good handle on how to regard gender reports. And phone surveys obviously more reliable. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:14, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
If someone wants to start with some less questionable links to archive, I have been looking through the links in the email I received, and they are definitely not a waste of time. —Neotarf (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
The last link has to do with bullying, and different tactics chosen based on the bully's gender. —Neotarf (talk) 22:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Hopefully will have time this weekend to add various new links to appropriate pages. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Notable women free speech activists

I just want to note something here:

  1. Thanks to Lquilter, I was able to look through Category:Free speech activists.
  2. Back when the late Adrianne Wadewitz was discussing the Gender bias on Misplaced Pages in the media, I was inspired and decided to try to improve in quality an article that was both related to women and one of my topics of interest, freedom of speech.
  3. So thanks to Lquilter, I looked through the articles at Category:Free speech activists for one on a woman that was deceased (and would therefore be less likely to have new information develop during the course of her life, and I could find a relatively full corpus of existing sources to improve the quality of the article).
  4. I chose the article Judith Krug.
  5. This was the state of that article before my quality improvement project began.
  6. I successfully improved the article to Good Article quality, see this version as promoted to GA.

Perhaps we could compile here, potential quality improvement projects that we could collaborate on, that are similar to above: related to both women and freedom of speech. Maybe we could start with other women from Category:Free speech activists. — Cirt (talk) 21:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Possible quality improvement projects -- related to both women and freedom of speech:

Looking for deceased women from Category:Free speech activists:
  1. Zoia Horn - note: recently deceased, dovetails with history relating to successful WP:GA quality improvement on Judith Krug, might be able to find similar research sources.
  2. Ida Craddock
  3. Lena Morrow Lewis
  4. Kitty Marion
  5. Harriet Pilpel
  6. Margaret Sanger - note: already WP:GA, maybe could take to WP:FA with others helping in collaborative project.
  7. Ayşe Nur Zarakolu

— Cirt (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps Djembayz or Carolmooredc would like to help collaborate on one of these Quality improvement projects to improve an article from Category:Free speech activists on a deceased woman who was a supporter of freedom of speech. — Cirt (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Of the above the one most directly related to freedom of speech is Zoia Horn. I think I'll begin some preliminary research and minor improvements to that article. If Djembayz or Carolmooredc or anyone else from WP:GGTF wishes to help out in a collaborative initiative, that'd be most appreciated. :) — Cirt (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Good to see your interest in this. As I said above, my interest is making it easier for women editors (especially those who let that factoid slip) to edit in traditionally male areas (politics, economics, sciences, etc.) unmolested by that 1 in 15 40 (or whatever) guy who can't stand seeing a woman disagreeing with him, reverting him, trying to get a third opinion when there's an unresolved difference of opinion (some people still think going to some innocuous noticeboards is a "personal attack"), requesting they go to dispute resolution, or when they start getting nasty, taking them to WP:ANI. At the latter I believe too many admins still take womens' complaints less seriously - or at least don't want to offend any guys even by just warning them to cool it. We can't increase the number of women editors if we keep trying to shunt them into women-related areas. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:27, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Anonymous editor: "I wish I could participate, but it is too dangerous."

[Note: It has been suggested that I cross-post this here. This was written by an editor who contacted me by email in the context of the current arbitration case on gender. The user writes:

"The problem is silence does not solve the problem for women. Remaining silent only works until we can't deal with it, and then we leave the project. Meeting fire with fire is the only workable solution, and the culture is so toxic that this generally leads to pretty bad things for female edits and bad things but less bad things for the other side. (I get my job threatened. What does Eric Corbett get? Not the same thing.)

"I had the first paragraph ready to hit save on that but couldn't do it. Can't risk the personal fall out. I wish I could participate, but the reality is it is too dangerous. I tell other women that too."

The user has given permission for me to post this, but wishes to remain anonymous. I have reposted the first paragraph to Jimbo's talk page, and the longer version to the case workshop page. Regards, —Neotarf (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2014 (UTC)]

To Neotarf's point about "hostile work environment", the Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to building an encyclopedia. They work with other organizations and commercial services in distributing their product, an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People who build the content are volunteers, and while they may leave at any time, there have been a few court rulings in the USA, whom have legal jurisdiction over the Florida incorporated Wikimedia Foundation, that explicitly demonstrate that volunteers have the same "employment" rights to be free of a hostile work environment that their paid employees have a right to. The right to be free of a hostile work environment extends beyond the person being subjected directly to the behavior. As Wikimedia has become more professionalized with students completing coursework, semi-professional editors working on community and content development as part of their employment, grants from the Wikimedia Foundation supporting work that leads to content development and community growth aimed at new content development, open tolerance of harassment of women (and other groups such as people with different sexual orientations, of different nationalities, people with disabilities, etc.) is just that with increasing potential to demonstrate real damages.

Beyond that, the tolerance for such behavior sends a clear and overriding message to women that they are not wanted and the current advice to women of ignore has proven largely ineffective. Openly encouraging such behavior as that status quo and providing zero resource to fix it other than escalating the situation through non-functional dispute resolution processes makes Misplaced Pages prime for its own version of GamerGate. At some point, the Wikimedia Foundation may very well find itself having to do what Adobe did. The only reason that has not happened to date is because many of the women who have dealt with sexually based harassment, have had their employment targeted because they are female, have had their academic work targeted because they are and dealt with gender specific crap have either lacked the media resources to put the story out there, cannot take the professional risk of exposing the systemic problem or at their hearts of hearts believe so much in the movement (where editors seek to actively destroy them because they are women) that they have not willingly thrown the Wikimedia Foundation under the bus. The last part is probably the most important reason. <names redacted> are prime examples.

The tactics being employed in general on English Misplaced Pages towards women as a form of harassment include: Sabotaging a person's contribution, Post complaint retaliation, name calling, threatening punishment, Interfering with employment, Boasting of own success and proficiency with the intention of using this success as a weapon. For all of these, the research has shown that males are much more likely to engaged in these forms of harassment. The type of harassment given to males is markedly different, and the type of harassment women are more likely to engage in compared to males is markedly different. English Misplaced Pages provides a format where male specific harassment techniques are much easier to do, and do effectively. Given the already large male participation numbers in pure percentages, ... Go back to hostile work environment.

"Five campaigns against sexual harassment that you should know"

Frida Kahlo

Thought some people here might be interested - there's a campaign to get Frida Kahlo in the Mustache Hall of Fame, as she was proud of her mustache and often included it in her self-portraits. You can nominate her (or anyone else you like) here: http://mustachehall.com 12.186.136.234 (talk) 15:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)