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:::::The mere fact that someone is a feminist is not evidence, much less proof, of the vast feminist conspiracy that Sargon believes exists. ] (]) 20:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC) :::::The mere fact that someone is a feminist is not evidence, much less proof, of the vast feminist conspiracy that Sargon believes exists. ] (]) 20:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
:Masem, we are not going to mention what is demonstrably a fringe conspiracy theory without immediately mentioning the fact that the only reliable source to cover it considers it to be a conspiracy theory. ] (]) 20:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


==Use of insidehighered as a source== ==Use of insidehighered as a source==

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RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

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Culling substandard sources

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This is a controversial article which deals with very specific WP:BLP topics, but is plagued with substandard sourcing. There is really no need to have 153 sources detailing the minutia of the controversy. I suggest removing all the sources labeled as op-eds, and all of the gaming press sources. That would leave mainstream outlets like the BBC, public radio, PBS, The New Yorker, Slate, The New York Times, The Independent, The Boston Globe, Le Monde, Salon, CNN, Mother Jones, The Guardian, Wired, Time, LA Times etc, so long as the sources were not to their editorial page. This would mean removing sources like Venture Beat, Ars Technica, IGN, Polygon, The Daily Dot, Kotaku, PC Magazine, The Verge, Gamespot, Gameindustry.biz, Re/code, Eurogamer, etc...

The question of the RfC: Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all niche game journalism sources, niche tech journalism sources, opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs?

We just don't need to use niche publications to create an article for this topic. aprock (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

discussion

  • There's a case to be made for some of the sources you've suggested dropping, but it might be a valuable exercise to cull the sourcing in general. There are all ready too many footnotes to marginal or situationally useful references. Protonk (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • There will be a few "substandard" sources I think we need to keep, such as Tolito's Kotaku rebuttal to the initial Quinn charge. But I do think that a few step of seeing what claims made by substandard sources can be moved to a good RS should be done first, and then see what the next step (eg how many statements only sourcable to substandard ones are left). --MASEM (t) 19:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Sources like that are reasonable to keep if they are referred to in the mainstream press. Thus if his rebuttal is discussed, in say the Wall Street Journal, the primary source can be included. aprock (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's reasonable. But I think that determination should come after we do, wherever possible, replacement of weak RS to strong RS that support the same fact (eg what should be non-issue as that's just general improvement) What's left will then have to take a more cautious approach. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • the request is too broad. as a purely cultural event, opinions/analysis/commentary are necessary to understand the controversy's place and impact in culture. removing the items that place it in context is inimical to a good article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
No one is suggesting removing analysis and commentary of the event. In fact, per WP:PSTS we rely on secondary sources to perform topic synthesis. However, per WP:RSOPINION, opinion pieces are generally not reliable sources for much beyond what the author thinks. If a mainstream source indicates that the editorial is of particular interest, then including it might be reasonable. Including it simply because it exists, is contrary to WP:DUE. aprock (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Are you reading a different proposal than I am? Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all ... opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs? yes, there is not only the suggestion but actual statement we remove from consideration some of the prime locations to derive high quality , in-depth opinion/commentary/analysis to be left with soundbites culled from "news" articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:08, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I suspect that your definition of "high quality" is considerably different that that of the mainstream. Which "high quality" source would this proposal affect? aprock (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
"high quality" relative to the sources available for an issue that is 3 months old. When the academic reviews come in, then the editorials are likely to be the second tier of quality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Eliminating tech sources for an article about a technocultural controversy seems arbitrary or WP:POINTY. In some cases, though perhaps not in all, the technical press will offer expertise or detail not available to more general sources. Often, requests for source purges of this nature are really seeking to eliminate sourcing for critical sections of an article, which can then be removed, or preparing for a fresh visit to AfD. Neither is likely to be effective here. Moreover, if all this pruning will be done while the article remains capped with an NPOV template, we’ll continually be wrangling over whether each change is a further attempt to deskew the article. I do not see this as a productive path forward. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "pointy". If the tech sources are high quality mainstream sources they are probably reasonable. Which tech sources do you think are particularly high quality mainstream sources? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • This seems like a good broad principle and an absolutely terrible hard and fast rule. Oppose. Artw (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Seems incredibly overbroad to me to suggest that we can't use well-known tech/gaming journalism sources, which are those which have covered this matter most extensively. The Verge and Polygon in particular are run by noted journalists with a pretty significant history of quality work. Also, if we remove all of the sources you suggest, we will be left with far fewer "pro-GamerGate" voices — no Erik Kain, no APGNation, no MetalEater, no CinemaBlend, no Cathy Young, no Christina Hoff Sommers, etc. The ramifications of the fact that the only pro-GamerGate sources are of such marginal quality is an exercise left for the reader. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Which of the tech/gaming sources are particularly "well-known"? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, as I said, The Verge for one. As per its Alexa rank (426), it receives more traffic than Slate (611), Wired (623), Salon (1,088) or Mother Jones (3,700), just to name a few of those you named. Its staff consists of well-known tech journalists including Nilay Patel and its reporting is widely cited and commented upon beyond its site. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
It's not at all clear that Alexa traffic is a good barometer of mainstream. The Verge is just barely three years old. I personally don't have any issue with the site, and know nothing about it's editorial practices. Is there any reporting there that is crucial to the article, and which can't be sourced to other mainstream sources? If so, it may be reasonable to use it, but it's probably not a big loss if it's not used. I could be wrong though. aprock (talk) 22:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, then what is a good barometer of mainstream other than just arguing by assertion that tech sites can't be mainstream? And why would Wired be mainstream and The Verge not? More people read The Verge than read Wired, at least based upon available traffic stats. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
That's a good question, but again I don't think website traffic is the way to answer it. There may be some insight at mainstream media if you're curious to investigate further. aprock (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
It's not up to me to answer it — you're the one making the claim that Wired is "mainstream" and The Verge is not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me that you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don't really care one way or another about The Verge. If it is generally considered a high quality mainstream source, then it should be included.aprock (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, that's all I needed to hear. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Seems a bit too sweeping to be practical, but it's hard to say sight unseen. Could a version be worked on as a subpage here, to see what the article would look like if such sources were pruned? Tarc (talk) 20:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support: as nominator. The quality of sources in the article is extremely low. Erring on the side of higher quality sources is a much better course to tack. aprock (talk) 22:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and if you're going to whine that Gawker is a bastion of gold journalism, . Just a few months after the "Fappening", they do a hard 180, and use (semi)nude pics for traffic. Don't bother reporting it, I have a local copy. --DSA510 Pls No H8 00:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Allow me to suggest that WP:BLP, WP:RS, and WP:DUE be our guides. aprock (talk) 23:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Then you agree that The Verge is a perfectly-acceptable reliable source for this article and not "substandard" in any way? I don't object to looking at replacing The Daily Dot, CinemaBlend, etc. where possible, but The Verge is a pretty vital source which has extensively covered this issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't agree or disagree with respect to The Verge. It's up to the community to determine that this is a high quality mainstream source. It's not my call. Personally, I have no real experience with it, and have no clue how often it is used by other media. aprock (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is a bad idea. Mainstream sources are being incredibly lazy with regard to this topic. It would further exacerbate the problems the article's having. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support, to some extent - I don't think it should be strictly limited to "mainstream only" as some of the industry-specific sources may give insight into the greater "chilling effects" on the industry. "Mainstream" will also ultimately be an arbitrary criteria. I'm not sure I agree with the assessment of substandard v standard - is it ultimately saying that if something is mentioned in a smaller source instead of mainstream sources, it is less reliable? I guess I tend to agree with that. But - if something is mentioned in mainstream and lesser-known both, and both are cited here, I definitely agree that the lesser-known can be culled, especially in a long article like this one (as Masem says below). And if there are details used in this article that are only cited in one (or maybe two) niche sources but not in the major press coverage, those should probably be reconsidered for inclusion. Either way I will be watching this with interest, as a related article I've been keeping an eye on uses almost exclusively what aprock describes here as "substandard sources," but that is a much more industry-specific article, while comparatively this issue has broken out into a higher level of media awareness so there are more sources to choose from. Hustlecat 23:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as rather arbitrary. The technical press is not automatically of low quality, and in many cases it's the best source. I'm not completely opposed to suggestions that redundant sources should be trimmed. And where we do this, we should always take care to select the best source for the context. --TS 23:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Support This has gotten a lot of mainstream coverage, we don't need biased journals. Mr. Guye (talk) 02:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment. Summoned here by bot. I agree that only the highest quality sources should be used for text that presents a genuine BLP issue. However I would not agree with a blanket prohibition on industry publications. Coretheapple (talk) 18:22, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support It's time to upgrade sources and cull non-notable/unreliable ones. No need to recognise and quote every single article when a single reliable mainstream source does the job better. Patriarch (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Partial step: Replace low quality with high quality sources supporting same point

This is basically what I describe above, but to repeat, and highlight , I do suggest that a partial step that should not be as much of an issue is to replace any weak RS that is not tied to a quote or specific opinion with an high quality RS that can source the same point, if one does exist. If there doesn't exist a strong RS replacement, leave it for the time being. After we do that, we should be able to make a better judgement of what the quality of sourcing looks like if we need a further step. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

What are these weaker sources that you suggest be replaced?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The same list given above. But again, to be clear, this is only if a better quality RS can source the exact same point; there's definitely points where the writing in the finer details would require a specific source to be used and that couldn't be changed out. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with this. Tarc (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Seems like an easier first pass to take. aprock (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Sounds sensible. No objection here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Specifically: IGN, The Daily Dot, PC Magazine, Gamespot and Gameindustry.biz can go. Ars Technica and Kotaku should stay. The former because they are generally reliable (and widely relied upon in tech articles) and the latter because it is unavoidable. Protonk (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I would add TechCrunch and CinemaBlend to the list of those we can look to replace. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Reliability must always be evaluated on a case-by-case matter. As someone who works in IT, I can say that the mainstream can sometimes be a poor source about technical topics, as it may be written by journalists who don't understand the topics they are writing about. Sources who specialize in a topic can often provide better coverage since it is what they specialize in. If we eliminate the technical press from technology-related articles, what's next? Should we stop citing astronomy sources in articles about astronomy? This is a bad idea. Each source must be judge individually, not by sweeping assertions. See WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I was not aware that there were any technical aspects of this controversy. As best I can tell, you are arguing to use primary sources above secondary sources. Given the degree of misuse that primary sources can cause, it's pretty clear that secondary sources should be used for the greatest part. To the extent that using primary sources makes sense, that should be determined by the secondary sources. aprock (talk) 00:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
There may not be technical aspects to the controversy, but the gaming industry and community can be abstruse to those not part of it. The topic's not going to be served by handing it over exclusively to mainstream sources. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
This doesn't make sense given the suggestion. If we have a point sourced to , say, ArsTech, and the same point can be sourced to NYTimes, we should use the better quality source. On the other hand, if ArsTech goes into some detail on a technical point we have, and the NYtimes touches but glosses over the details, we should keep the ArsTech in this first partial step. The only suggestions I'm saying is when the 1-to-1 replacement is obvious. --MASEM (t) 06:53, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Tooooooo long

Whoever tagged this, "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably", was absolutely right. I offer a barnstar for the first editor who in a non-vandalistic way manages to cut this article down to 80k. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I will take up this challenge --Guerillero | My Talk 04:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
@Drmies:The current size is 61K would a size of 50ish K be good? --Guerillero | My Talk 04:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Guerillero--wait, 61K? I see 127,386 bytes. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
127,386 bytes includes wiki markup, comments, etc... The recommendations in WP:SIZERULE are for the size of the prose, sans-markup. According to User:Dr_pda/prosesize the prose size, text-only, is 61 kB (9723 words). Article is basically on the edge of what is recommended. — Strongjam (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Alright, forget what I said about numbers: the article is way too long and too detailed. Drmies (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
One of the things that is beefing up the size are lengthy quotes from various sources, which, rough estimate, take about 33% of the prose length here. I've tagged the article with {{quotefarm}} to indicate this but this is probably just a matter of review each of the longer quotes and culling down to core statements from each. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Simply cutting down redundant attack quotes would make this article much shorter and easier to follow.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, there are way too many quotes. The reason there are so many quotes is that every attempt to write a paraphrased summation of the mainstream POV based on those sources was summarily rejected as "introducing bias." If we could work toward expressing the mainstream POV in Misplaced Pages's voice, we could get rid of a lot of quotes. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
No question this article is outrageously overlong. Surely its importance does not outrank that of, for example, NASA, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, personal computer or Fast Fourier transform. — Objectivesea (talk) 10:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the length of this article is insane. Coretheapple (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Trimmed article by Totlmstr

I made a separate page for testing based on Drmies's recent edit (the one on whether Let's Players were mentioned), and I trimmed the article using Notepad++. It cuts the article down from the above 61 kB (9723 words) to 44 kB (6944 words). Note that I barely added anything on there and most of the work was deletions. You can check the abbreviated edit comment on there as an insight. I removed some of the references, and these were commented out at the bottom of the article. Totlmstr (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Wow. That's a huge difference. I tell you what, lots of people or not going to like it, but I do. (But I am not as familiar with the material as some others.) Thanks! Drmies (talk) 04:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome. It is a huge difference and the focus on this article is much better. There were at least three paragraphs dedicated to one source and multiple quotes in the same line that were too extraneous (a double quote by Anita in one sentence and three quotes by Kain in a row in three sentences; both were knocked by one each) and articles that focused on a blip in the controversy (An entire paragraph dedicated to a blogger and is not mentioned anywhere else in the article? How relevant is that?). Totlmstr (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I feel like this is a fair place to start working, but there's several removals that I think unnecessarily weaken the narrative, particularly in terms of addressing the movement's claims re: journalism ethics and DiGRA. Also, the "Attacks on women" section should not be smaller than "The Fine Young Capitalists" section, given the relative weight of the two issues in mainstream reliable sources (lots and lots of attention to the movement's attacks on women, not really any at all on TFYC). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
At this point, I'm allowing the mods to just go ahead and edit this page as they need. My original edit was the base requirement I would like to see on the page proper. Also, I do not see how size comparisons are important here. Shouldn't it be the content? Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
We weight content based on its relative prevalence in reliable sources. That is, stuff that's discussed a lot in reliable sources should get more space than stuff that isn't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
By following that at the general level, DiGRA has only mentioned GamerGate as a blurb on their website as far as I can tell with my simplistic Google searching. I can't find anything else that has a better leaning than TFYC, which organization was deeply involved with Zoe Quinn, at the center of a controversy for at least a solid month, amd part of the 4chan debacles involving Vivian James and several other things that are/should be in the TFYC article proper. I believe that until DiGRA releases their full length articles directly about GamerGate (they must have released something of note about the topic directly), their section really should be that short in the article in my opinion. Totlmstr (talk) 05:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
My objection re: DiGRA there is that you dramatically shortened DiGRA's response while leaving the attack entirely intact.
As for TFYC, they are, as per the reliable sources, more or less a minor footnote in this issue. While perhaps deserving more space than Anil Dash's incident, they don't deserve much more. They certainly don't deserve more space than the discussion section on "Attacks on women," for which Gamergate is far more notable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
My point still stands. By all means, if you want to add something in, do so in the page I created. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Totlmstr is just another zombie account. No edits for months and then right into Gamergate as if he's a neutral party. The fact that his draft of the article is removing more content critical of Gamergate and leaving in the stuff supportive of it is proof as such.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I explicity mention I am a lurker on Misplaced Pages and I follow my interests on my page. I normally don't go on Talk pages and I don't contribute that often to Misplaced Pages due to most of the pages I am on already have enough edits or sections. Additionally, I am more active off-site than on here, so "zombie account" may as well be half-correct. You are free to not listen if you so desire. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
You're here from KotakuInAction though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Do you even sometimes assume good faith? This article needs trimming and everybody knows it, but when someone tries to do it, people from either side shoot them down.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletos (talk • contribs) 08:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
You removed the entire Anil Dash paragraph when there were multiple sources discussing it and using it as an example of how trolling and right wingers were exploiting the Gamergate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Anil Dash (I do not know enough about the person) was, at the really basic level, threatened by an anonymous poster on her blog that she posted on a random day. It is not even known if it was even related to GamerGate at all, so I thought it would be best to hold on putting it up there than impulsively adding it in. It was explained in the earlier paragraphs that anyone could make threats of any kind and anyone can use the hashtag at will, but, so far, nothing of merit or confirmation as far as I know of has come out of it. And it was, like I said, a very small blip in the entire controversy; it is not mentioned anywhere else in the article as of my edit. Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm willing to say the Anil Dash thing was a flash in the pan that we can trim. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Anil Dash is a man who got harassed by that "lawyer" we're not allowed to talk about due to vague BLP violations who made himself to be a "leader" of Gamergate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Generally agree on Totlmster's trimmed version, which primarily aimed at the quotes, and that helps a lot. I do agree that we should be focusing on a broader narrative and not get into weedy details like Anil Dash's aspect. --MASEM (t) 05:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Not at all. Totlmstr's just another Redditor from KIA trying to pull the wool over our eyes. His edits almost exclusively remove content critical of Gamergate while leaving lengthy sections that prove it right.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I am not entirely sure how my posting history off-site is relevant on Misplaced Pages. Totlmstr (talk) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
It shows that you are not a neutral party here. And your proposed cuts show that as well.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
True, I am not a neutral party at all. However, I am judging the article based on the content and context of the article itself, not on the premise of whether or not this fits with me. I also wanted to take this challenge because the article is really way too long and needs to be compressed somehow. It is, however, a strange coincidence that the majority of the lengthy quotes (especially the paragraphs that I have deleted) were from that same side and had what would be redundancy in the paragraphs themselves. For example, the MetalEater paragraph in "Legitimacy over Ethics Concerns" section says, at the lowest level, the same thing as the paragraph right above it, and that has two articles referenced. Another example is the Grant remark in "Nature and Organization" is more concise and direct than the quote and remark combination before it. In both cases, these references can be moved to another location so that way the article doesn't talk about a single subject for too long (which you can edit in the page I linked, and I'm letting you do so without any interference from me as of that recent edit). Does Misplaced Pages really need multiple lengthy quotes back to back just to explain one point when an even better reference can do it that easily? Shouldn't some of these quotes be compressed so that way they fit the narrative? Totlmstr (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Finding redundancies is one thing. And as stated multiple times on this page (and in its archives) the quotes have been used because there have been a large contingent of users who have argued that the paraphrasing of these sources has not been adequate as it presents the information within that they have generally disagreed with as being written in Misplaced Pages's voice rather than the voice of the writer. While it may be useful to cut out some of these (and the Anil Dash paragraph/sentence) it just seemed odd at first glance. TFYC should be given less prevalence on the page if we are cutting out some of this other content (and I am still convinced we should merge the separate article to this one).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I made this its own subsection, by the way. starship.paint ~ regal 06:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


I've gone ahead and WP:BOLDly created a subpage working draft, at Talk:GamerGate controversy/Working draft. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Blizzard entertainment stance on Gamergate

This edit request to Gamergate controversy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mike Morhaime full quote at BlizzCon is "Over the past couple of months, there has been a small group of people doing awful things,"They're tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right.", therefore the claims that he especially denounced GamerGate are false and therefore be changed to mention that.(per Misplaced Pages:Synthesis) Avono (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: It was Geoff Keighley who asked at the Direct Tv stage if Gamergate was responsible,he did not return any clear answer Avono (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
He never specifically mentioned Gamergate so you would need a source that interprets it that way and we would note that as the opinion of that author. Assuming he is talking about Gamergate here is WP:OR. Muscat Hoe (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
for reference the specific request is to change "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014" to "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014" Avono (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


The media has made the attribution to GG, so we do need to be careful. The current text is Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another., I would suggest Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another. (change in bold) This does not name GG, keeps the implication in the sources (even if obvious), but still reflects properly on the quote. --MASEM (t) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
The sources cited all say it was in reference to Gamergate. Morhaime himself confirmed he was speaking about Gamergate. As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. . WP:SYN is not involved. — Strongjam (talk) 17:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
the specific faction was not named. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
to be specific, he might be talking about it as a whole, harassment from both sides, as Gawker valiantly proclaims to be false, since 20k+ white males are doing it purely for "misogyny". wheras the media "RS" says that there is only harrasment coming from the pro-gamergate side. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Postaddendumaddendum: The validity of that article is being disputed in the comments section. Someone get a copy of the actual event rather than some 3'd party's biased version. --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't matter. Comments on an article aren't RS. Also, even if we remove that source there's still MCV saying Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters and urge people to redouble their efforts in trying to promote a friendlier, more welcoming gaming environment.. — Strongjam (talk) 18:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
however that is Ben Parfitt's interpretation, no where in that source is it claimed that Morhaime mentioned GamerGate Avono (talk) 18:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
No, this request should be denied, as Morhaime was indeed speaking directly about Gamergaters. If we need to add the additional specificity from the joystiq link above, then that is fine. Tarc (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Prove that Morhaime was speaking directly about Gamergate (and I mean, use HIS words, not what others INTERPRET). Omegastar (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
We follow WP:RS here. Us proving anything would be WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
This is either a case of incorrect information (from joystiq), or an attempt at smearing (yet again). Wouldn't the actual conference/convention/powwow be a better source? --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
thus the joystiq claim cannot be used unless a secondary source is found that Independently states the same thing.Avono (talk) 18:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Then we can at least agree that Morhaime has only "denounced the ongoing harassment" and not anything specific. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
That is the aim of this request, to only state what was said by Morhaime without third party interpretations.Avono (talk) 22:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Consider this is in the section about the "Industry response" which is after the section outlining the established harassment towards Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu, and the reports of harassment the other way. In context of his actual speech, and not the clarification afterwards, it makes sense to point out the "ongoing harassment" (per my suggestion above), which in no way weakens the importance of his statement at that venue. Even if he knew and stated later he was speaking to the harassment attributed to GG, saying "the ongoing harassment" is just as true a statement. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I propose Masem suggestion to be used until the information from joystiq can be backed up Avono (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
It's very clear that he was referring to GamerGate, as per the sources covering the event. Oppose. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Does it matter if he was speaking to harassment under the GG banner, or harassment that has been going on in general? --MASEM (t) 18:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, actually it does, for reasons that should be intensely obvious at this point. Stop trying to create a two-sided issue where the reliable sources are all-but-unanimously on one side. This wasn't on the front page of The New York Times for no reason. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a major difference if he was condemning the harassment, in general (which most everyone, including GG supporters, would likely agree with), and if he was condemning specifically the Gamergate movement, which add yet more weight to the article. The latter is a much more charged statement that we cannot say in a WP voice, and so we have to verify if this is truly what he said in the sources. If he actually said "GG" during the speech, I would not have an issue at all; it might add more imbalance but its impossible to get away from since we'd have it sourced as such. But the analysis below is clear that we're resting the validity of the statement (that he was talking about on the non-verbal nod to a question asked by Kingsley. That is a huge WP:SNYTH problem considering the change in POV of the statement and the balance of the article. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
The cite sources have made the connection:
  • BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate
  • Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters
  • Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name.
No WP:SYNTH is involved. — Strongjam (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes it is, if we are saying it in WP's voice; if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky. But we cannot say he was talking about it when we can clearly tell from the direct primary sources that the only thing that connected his speech directly to the "condemning of Gamergaters" (and not to the harassment resulting from the situation) was a nod in reply to a question, and the question not being specific as to which part of his speech. --MASEM (t) 00:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
"if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky." We don't know that though. The sources don't say they believe he meant Gamergaters based on the speech. They could have gotten clarification from Blizzard. In the end we have to trust WP:RS and not do our own research. — Strongjam (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Why can we just cite the speech in general and then in the next sentence state that it "was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources?" --Super Goku V (talk) 00:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
We could, and that would at least avoid the OR, but then that also begs adding one more bit of weighted coverage to the article. There's zero issues with saying what he actually said in his speech (which, "last few months" make it clear its surrounding GG events, no SYNTH there) in a section called "Industry response" that follows from the harassment aspects. --MASEM (t) 00:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just about lost interest in the health of this article. From top to bottom it's a wash. However, I did want to point out that Blizzard's PR team constructed a pretty careful statement that condemned harassment without specifically implicating anyone. In fact, most figures that have come out of this with clean hands have been places that aren't attacking anyone, like Escapist Magazine who allowed discussion to continue on forums while they made certain nothing got out of hand. Twisting what a rep for Blizzard said about a movement - especially an ideologically heated controversy with people in it who don't care about other humans - is not only damaging to the reputation of that rep, but also to Blizzard itself. Any editor here looking to victimize people or groups they disagree with should take some serious reflection on their own morals. I know this advice falls on deaf ears. But do consider: Blizzard constructed their very neutral statement for a reason, and Misplaced Pages should not be going out of their way to twist that neutrality into a statement of support for one side or another of some vitriolic, misanthropic, attack-oriented ideology. YellowSandals (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering Gawker is a reliable source now, it seems the standards of Misplaced Pages are falling greatly. Thank god gawker doesn't talk about KDE/Ubuntu/FOSS (hopefully). --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Not sure what this has to do with this request. None of the sources for this statement are owned by Gawker Media. — Strongjam (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I am giving an example of the standards of wikipedia in recent light. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There has only been one group engaging in harassment and tarnishing the reputation of gaming over the past couple of months. Reliable sources are perfectly capable of checking with Blizzard to make sure Mike Morhaime meant what it sounded like, and conversely he could easily put out a press release explaining that he really meant the Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever. This is why we use reliable sources. --TS 18:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

A case could be made that game journalists are a small group and that they have been tarnishing gamers and gaming for the past month.Thronedrei (talk) 06:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Why, that's... Actually a pretty valid possibility, seeing how Plante recently supported bullying. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
No, that's not true. We have sources (one from Salon/Aurdbach) that says that the GG moderate are fishing out trolling using the GG hashtag to stir the pot, and there's the harassment by unknowns towards proGG supporters. So it's not proper to say the harassment is only coming from GG supporters; at best we can say it is primarily coming from those using the GG banner/hashtag. Now, whether Morhaime was aware of that or not, we can't be sure, but we can be certain he was talking about harassment in general (per his exact quote), and that's still fine to leave it at that for the "Industry response" section (Even the ESA's statement didn't mention GG by name but referred to harassment). --MASEM (t) 19:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Considering the definition of "Reliable Source" has been reduced to muckraking web tabloids run by supporters of bullying, Gawker Media, I'm not so sure the "Reliable Sources" should get the free reign they once had, I.E. everything should be verified thoroughly. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Come off it, Masem. The vast majority of reliable sources discuss the threats as coming from Gamergate supporters essentially exclusively. We're aware of Auerbach's POV at this point and his viewpoint is interesting, but it is not the predominant one in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I still fail to see how gawker is reliable for anything. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
You're wilfully ignoring information I've provided in the past. You can look through the archives for sources on harassment of Gamergate supporters. Here's the newest one, which I've linked to before, which is still not in the article, I'll note.
Oh, here's an SJW endorsing the gas chamber for Gamergate supporters, among other lunacy. Social justice is great! Willhesucceed (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
@Willhesucceed: can you please stay focused on reliable sources and article content? Thanks-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I am. It's allowable for his opinion, and Digitimes is perfectly reliable. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Get out of the brambles of the debate for a second. There are two groups slandering gaming right now and they're both extremist elements. There are the people trying to publicize the sexual fetishes of Gamergate supporters in the hopes that it will smear them. There are people sending threats, syringes, or whatever to Gamergate supporters. Then we've got people sending threats and airing out the sexual history of the Social Justice set on the other end. The Social Justice has declared all "gamers" dead, and they call gaming misogynistic. Meanwhile, other people are sending death threats, presumably in support of "gamers". All the while we've these political figures stepping in, and they have nothing to do with gaming. Now you tell me - who's tarnishing gaming? The people saying it's dead? The people harassing others for gaming? The people saying that gamers are misogynistic?
You see how Blizzards statement can go any direction. They condemned the harassment. It's a careful PR statement, and you are supposed to be able to interpret it either way. Nobody supports the harassment. Nobody in their right minds anyway. That's what Blizzard came out against. If they wanted to condemn Gamergate directly, that's what they would have done, but apparently they don't want to bait additional controversy, and Misplaced Pages should not be doing it for them. Do not spend so much energy attacking people that you bring misery and harassment to people who want to focus on the specific problems and not on a group with people they've never met or spoken to. YellowSandals (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Yellow Sandals puts it the best. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Shorter YellowSandels: “Both sides have always been at war with EastAsia.” I’ve seen no credible evidence that Sarkesian, Quinn, Wu, or their supporters have threatened to murder or rape anyone, only that some interested parties claim to have received anonymous parcels. There is no question at all that Quinn was smeared, Sarkisian threatened with murder, and Wu threatened with both murder, rape, and assault; a police investigation into the latter is ongoing. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh, knock it off. This very Misplaced Pages article has been a party to the harassment and you know it. It has struggled with numerous BLP violations, including but not limited to criticizing whether or not it's appropriate for certain forum moderators to like BDSM. The article begins with a derogatory conclusion about people, and then spends its duration trying to prove the conclusion. Innocence is not granted by the virtue of rhetoric when the actions speak for themselves. This much is apparent, and something consistently reiterated by several editors here who are on the war path. Many editors are here to attack and hurt people, and they are as wrong as anyone who has set out to attack and hurt people in this controversy. YellowSandals (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Is the post by YellowSandals immediately above fully consistent with the General Sanctions in place on this topic? MarkBernstein (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
we have Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement to discuss editor conduct and sanctions, which is probably where both YS's and MB's comments belong.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, MB instigated it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
If you have a user conduct issue, take it to the appropriate boards - DO NOT USE THIS PAGE TO WHINE OR CAST ASPERSIONS. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:18, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
You're really being quite nasty over very little, chill out man there's no need for that. HalfHat 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
WP:RSN is a better place for that question. Also noted earlier Gawker is not involved in this issue section, I see no Gawker sites being cited for this claim. — Strongjam (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Gawker is shorthand for Kotaku since Kotaku is a part of the Gawker network. Anyways, couldn't we just quote the section that is relevant instead of putting it on one side or the other? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Before I go on, I’d like to take a moment to talk about something serious. Over the past couple of months, there’s been a small group of people who have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people’s lives miserable and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It’s not right. Blizzcon is a great example of how positive and uplifting gaming can be. Let’s carry the good vibes from this weekend out into the world all year round. There is another person on the other end of a chat screen, they are our friends, our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters. Let’s take a stand to reject hate and harassment, and let’s redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another and let’s remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.

— CEO of Blizzard, Mike Morhaime
Why is this still being discussed? Morhaime made a statement condemning Gamergaters, later confirmed that it was the Gamergaters he was condemning, and this s who all reliable sources describe the matter. This is not even a point of contention. Tarc (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Because RS isn't so R. Skepticism is not a sin. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Didn't he clarify that he was indeed talking about Gamergate and all of this is just complaining that his original statement did not explicitly refer to Gamergate and therefore his clarification should not be used to corroborate his original statement out of some major form of pedantry?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I think there's some controversy about whether he confirmed or not. The Joystiq report says he did, some internet commentators say that he didn't. Until we have a WP:RS that says otherwise I see no reason to call the Joystiq report inaccurate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
UNTIL there is either confirmation buy MULTIPLE sources (reliable as in the general definition, not Gawker) that, yes, he said that, I don't think it should be used. Similar should go to all the citations on the page. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
"11:52AM As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name.' is the end of the story. Tarc (talk) 22:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
It's well sourced. All of these are WP:RS and non-Gawker as requested:
  • BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate
  • Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters
  • Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name.
— Strongjam (talk) 22:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just seen the clips. He doesn't stop or correct Keighley (because I think he's correct), but he doesn't confirm it either. Even the sources that Gamergate hates (Kotaku & Polygon) do not explicitly say (as Misplaced Pages currently does) that Morhaime denounced Gamergate. - hahnchen 22:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Then you would have seen the, how shall we put it, respectful nod and smile from Morhaime at Keighley's statement. Non-verbal communication is a thing, and we helpfully have a number of reliable sources making the connection so that it is not WP:SYNTH in any way, shape or form. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
People nod in everyday conversation. We have a number of reliable sources that state Morhaime did not address Gamergate by name, so any connection is an interpretation. Nothing wrong with stating that. - hahnchen 22:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, since I have not seen the video cited, here is a recording of it at the least. At ten seconds in, we can first see the panel with Morhaime at Keighley. At twenty, Keighley is almost done with the intro to the panel as Morhaime is grinning/smiling. At twenty-nine seconds in, Keighley uses the word "Gamergate" in his speech. By thirty-three seconds in, Morhaime facial expression becomes closer to neutral, though not a Blank expression. At thirty-five, Morhaime is nodding as Keighley has mentioned Morhaime being "one of the first execs in the Gaming Industry to address that head on. At thirty-eight, the camera shot changes from a distance shot to Morhaime head-on. The discussion continues on to a different subject and at fifty-one second, Morhaime first speaks. Is that enough to make or break a connection? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
First one is assuming that he was talking about one side or the other. Second one has the same fallacy. Joystiq's one is still unconfirmed. Again, there is no proof he was talking about one side in particular, but rather condemning all harassment, from both sides... or whatever number of sides there is now. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
The only notable harassment...harassment characterized as misogynists, to boot...has come by gamergaters against women in the gaming culture, as evidenced by the reliable sources in the article. The smattering of blowback is I believe documented in the article as well (would have to review), but it is isolated and minor...again, as evidenced by reliable sources. As the Blizzard speech has been characterized and interpreted by reliable sources as targeting Gamergaters specifically, that is what this article should follow. At any rate, this is certainly not something that would ever been changed/edited through full protection by an admin, sao it is best to let this edit request drop, as it simply isn't going to happen. Tarc (talk) 22:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
It's only because your No True Scotsman BS. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
So the fact that he called out a small element of the gaming community, and then praised the gaming community as a whole, you're going to cherry pick that and say he call out out gamers? Really? Come one. It stands the opening sentence on it's head. --DHeyward (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
He didn't "call out gamers," he called out GamerGate, which is by any measure, a tiny minority of the gaming community as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
20K+ doesn't seem small. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. Hayward, I specifically said "Gamergaters", not "gamers" in a general sense. Tarc (talk) 23:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
"Those that did the notable harassment" are not all "Gamergaters" (specifically, those that support Gamergate as an ethics bit), it is only by people using the #gamergate tag, which there is RS-sourcable evidence that are trolls out there that are subverting things. This is not to say "no" Gamergater is innocent of being involved in the harassment, but that not all harassers are Gamergaters. --MASEM (t) 23:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
You specifically said "Gamergaters" while Morhaime did not. Can't we just say that he said to "reject hate and harassment" and state that publications took the statement as him calling out Gamergate? --Super Goku V (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the harassment is from a small group using the #gamergate tag out of a larger #gamergate group. #gamergate itself is a small groupr of gamers. Our article is not so finely tuned to identify the difference and the ignorance of that is the articles opening sentence where misogyny, harassment and gamers are all blended under a single, evil umbrella. If the article was accurate, it would be very clear exactly who this quote is directed at and it is not the Blizzard execs belief that "misogyny and harassment in video game culture" is widely held or believed. --DHeyward (talk) 02:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
But le ebin No True Scotsman maymay, which seems to not apply to anti-gamergate, despite someone like myself being able to make 5 twitter accounts and then dox pro-gg under the anti-gg banner, says that everyone who is pro-gamergate is a misogynist. Or something. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
And how does this relate to article content? Or are you just WP:FORUM? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
If the quote is significant enough to include, we should reflect its tone and content as accurately as possible. "Denounced harassment" is a better characterization than "denounced Gamergate", so why worry if we can find sources to support the latter?--Trystan (talk) 00:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Well said. We get more accuracy by including the original comment here. starship.paint ~ regal 01:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources all say the Gamergate thugs are the target. Why is this supposed to be controversial? If nearly every press outlet got the facts wrong, couldn't he just tell them all off with a single press release? No, obviously in the middle of Gamergate he was obviously referring to Gamergate (and not some add yet unnoticed episode of intimidation involving gaming Quakers). So yeah, no wriggle room. Drop the stick and step away from the corpse. --TS 01:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway:Was that directed at me? Because that was my second contribution to this talk page, and the first on this topic. I wouldn't contest that he was referring to Gamergate, only that "condemning harassment" is more reflective of the statement that he chose to make.--Trystan (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I have set |answered=yes in the edit request. There is obviously not consensus here for this edit, so using an edit protected request template was premature, and even if people here agreed to do so we are obviously not going to make an edit that contradicts what all the reliable sources say about this. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Then, why can't we just state what he said with a citation? Masem has suggested that we could make a new section called "Industry response" in response to one of my earlier suggestion. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The RS here are all gaming outlets for the most part (I can't find a mainstream source), so they are going to have more bias here because for the most part, no RS gaming source has any reason to give GG the time of day (understandably, since GG is attacking their integrity). Take sources that are less biased by their nature like CNet Venture Beat or the Verge and they all clearly establish he's talking about GamerGate, but not accusing Gamergaters. This is a core thing for us as neutral WP editors to recognize when there is a natural bias in the press that we can verify. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
From Masem's Verge link above: Blizzard CEO says harassment is tarnishing gaming's reputation ... Morhaime didn't condemn Gamergate or its members, but he's clearly talking about problems that have been going on since the movement gained steam over two months ago. Reliable source, hmm? starship.paint ~ regal 01:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Was he or was he not spoken to later and did he or did he not say he was explicitly talking about Gamergate?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
He was spoken to later and he did not explicitly state that he was talking about Gamergate. If you are refering to the Keighley issue, I have already asked my question above. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe I still have to say this. Drop the stick. --TS 02:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. We're just saying the same things over and over. We need to get back to the idea above of article pruning mentioned above, the idea of replacing existing and possibly weak gamer industry sources with stronger ones, as long as the underlying point isn't altered. Tarc (talk) 02:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I would write "Some assume he was referring to GamerGate, though it is not known whether it is GamerGate as a whole, or one side or the other." That way, everybody wins/loses. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
That would be incorrect; as reliable sources have characterized it as referring to Gamergaters, our article will reflect that. My last statement on this tangent. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There are alternative ways to render it, but I will take my point below. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed rewording

At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime said that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been largely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate. starship.paint ~ regal 04:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC) tagging people advocating for change... Hahnchen, NorthBySouthBaranof, Muscat Hoe, Avono, Masem, Super Goku V, DungeonSiegeAddict510, Trystan ... sorry if I missed you

Looks good to me, although I'd tweak the last line to add some attribution, "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
That's even better, yes. starship.paint ~ regal 04:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Fair, but keep it that way. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:19, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The notification system forgot to message me it seems. In any case, I would agree that this is better. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I would be comfortable with that as-well Avono (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

"A referral", I believe, is the translation of a legal case to a different court. The word we want if "a reference to GamerGate" MarkBernstein (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Referring would be better which is what was suggested in the first place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we could (and should) stop using the phrase "in the media", as if it were some entity with an opinion. Here and in many other statements related to the topic of this article we can just say, for instance, "widely interpreted". Remember that, in an article like this at its current status, all of our facts come directly from media reports, so referring to the media as a third party is tiresome and unnecessary. We shouldn't make the media the topic of the entire article like this. --TS 12:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You're right. The whole point of this is that the movement itself won't acknowledge that he was talking about them when everyone else is going "yep, he means Gamergate".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Disagree with TS. The (gaming) media is an involved party in this situation, therefore it's important to mention them. In fact, all four of the sources we cite for the BlizzCon stuff have to do with gaming or at worst, computer technology. In addition, I believe that other reliable sources like papers will turn up in the future. "At least one paper written about Gamergate is already undergoing the peer review process... And Ryulong... you can't speak for everyone. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Alter the last line to simply "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate". Tarc (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Done. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I meant to chop off "in the media" per TS's suggestion above, but was distracted. We already know we're talking about the media. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I have to admit your original wording was rather confusing!
I think starship is getting a bit too deeply into an "us versus them" situation. If we didn't think we could trust the press we wouldn't write the article because we'd have no reliable sources. My comment is applicable throughout the article, not just here. We should stop talking about our sources as if they were active entities involved in some dispute, except where this is the case. And if they are involved, we should not really be using them as a source except for recording their opinion. In this case, though, we've got near unanimous interpretation by sources known to check their facts.
Furious attempts are being made, by actual involved parties, to spin this away from Morhaime's actual target and pretend he was talking about, I don't know, maybe the Trilateral Commission or something. We oughtn't to stand for that kind of nonsense. We report according to the reliable sources, and those sources are clear that he was talking about Gamergate. --TS 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Not opposed to this, but I think we can do without all the quoting. The article is already a WP:QUOTEFARM and has length issues. I'd suggest something like this instead.
  • At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment from a small group. He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Suits me. --TS 14:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I would change the last bit to "referring to fallout from GamerGate." --DHeyward (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I oppose that, as per the reliable sources. "But this year, in the first few minutes of his time on stage, Morhaime wanted to address GamerGate..." "Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate" "Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters" "Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime addressed GamerGate" etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. I haven't seen any RS say it was about the fallout, just that either it was about Gamergate or assumed to be about Gamergate. — Strongjam (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Per reliable sources, the relationship to gamergate is pure SYNTH. . "He didn't identify it as the Gamergate saga and everything that has happened around it, but come on: we all know what he was talking about, right?". Gamergate should not identified as what he denounced since he didn't denounce it. He denounced harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
SYNTH prohibits only original research by synthesis — that is, conclusions not reached by reliable sources. SYNTH is expressly permitted when it is the conclusion of multiple reliable sources, as it is here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Then we can use that quote from kotaku to highlight that he didn't identify Gamergate and that the "wide interpretation" is pure speculation by the media. Or we can carve out what is much more widely accepted is that he condemned harassment that escalated during gamergate. There are many reliable sources that that quote him without tying it to gamergate and it's not like he couldn't have said "gamergate" if he meant "gamergate." Nor do I think he was saying harassment before gamergate was okay. It's myopic and self-serving to tie it so closely to gamergate when it's readily apparent that he didn't do anything of the sort. --DHeyward (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Also, he defends the gaming community "Let's redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another. And let's remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.". That separates the gaming community from the harassers much more than the WP article does. --DHeyward (talk) 21:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The proposed change only states that it was interpreted to be about Gamergate, which is exactly what the sources state, so I don't see the WP:SYNTH problem. Not sure why you're concerned about painting with a broad brush, the proposed change says harassment from a small group. — Strongjam (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Sure, fair point. At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment issues in the industry, blaming "a small group of people have been doing really awful things" and "tarnishing our reputation" as gamers. He called on attendees to treat each other with kindness and demonstrate to the world that the community rejects harassment. His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Fine with me. I've added to the draft page with small tweak. I dropped issues in the industry. Seemed unnecessary to me. Also, style question, should we be more consistent on how we capitalize GamerGate? Article title is Gamergate, but we usually spell it GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

No idea why some people spell it camel case. Most "gates" are spelled following Watergate as an example (yes, I know about the Watergate Hotel). Sometimes the second G is capitalised. It's redundant and we can safely ignore this as a typographical quirk. --TS 21:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Intel returns to Gamasutra, now with a source

The Mary Sue ain't The New York Times, but it's a (weak) RS, as previously discussed and used on this page, and we ought to update our section on Intel pulling ads with a notation that they began a new campaign on Gamasutra in November 2014. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamasutra confirmed it via a tweet, for what it's worth. Jgm74 (talk) 07:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I can't help noticing that the article's coverage of the Intel incident is rather larger than I expected. It seems larger than is reasonable, to be honest. I'd expect two or three sentences ending "Intel apologised for giving the perception of taking sides, also renewing its commitment to diversity, and later ran other paid advertising campaigns on Gamasutra."
We probably don't need a blow-by-blow commentary of what various chatterboxes had to say about it. The opinions of Johnson, McCormick, Kain etc aren't needed here. This was a straightforward letter-writing campaign that had a temporary effect. Let's try to stop using this article as a gazetteer of pundits. --TS 13:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed — especially given the relatively-short duration, I think we can, in hindsight, view a lot of that as recentism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I think we should drop everything after ... The New York Times believed it was in response to this campaign, specifically on the aforementioned article by Alexander. And add a sentence saying that in November 2014 Intel started a new paid campaign on Gamasutra citing The Mary Sue link above. The last paragraph I think can just be cut. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not a renewed campaign, a bit of f12ing would show that. --DSA510 Pls No H8 15:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

A look at the article would say it is a paid campaign. Not sure how looking at the HTML source would prove otherwise, or how we could work that into the article without violating WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the specific term, but its not a campaign on GS, per se, but on AdSense. I'm not sure how to word this, but they aren't specifically going for GS, if you can understand what I'm trying to say. --DSA510 Pls No H8 16:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The article and the primary source, Gamasutra's twitter, say it's paid campaign. I'm not getting any Intel ad's when I view the site (getting targeted AdSense ads for AWS). It's possible there is a paid ad campaign and users are also seeing targeted advertisements through AdSense. — Strongjam (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Especially since Google added an option to deliver direct campaigns through AdSense back in January. - MrOllie (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't want to be playing guessing games with HTML code. Intel is back on Gamasutra. I've updated the draft and took the opportunity to trim the quote farm while I was at it. Someone else would have to fix the orphaned references, as my little tablet interface isn't up to it. Go and see what you think. --TS 16:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I took a crack at fixing the references. There's still an error about 'bbc_coundrey' but I must be blind because I can't see it in the source. Found it. — Strongjam (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with the size of the thing, most of which is redundant quotations of multiple pundits. We're spending lots of space promoting the opinions of these professional chatterboxes when a brief summary of events would do. I'd say we overplay the opinionators because we're struggling to explain the vehemence of the response to a few articles critical of the consumer aspect of gamer culture and the violence and misogyny that regularly attend its manifestations.

We need to cover the following: conspiracy mongering about the timing and provenance of "Gamers are Over" and related articles; widespread ignorance of their actual content and the terrifying and violent context in which they appeared and about which they were written; criticism of the articles as "turning against" gamers; the letter writing campaign; responses by advertisers; responses in the advertising industry and business press.

If I've missed anything, please comment. When we've got a structure I think we'll be ready to tame that quote farm further. --TS 17:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Telegraph reporting on this now, so a better source. But agree we can cut down that section a bit, perhaps work both "advertizing target" campaigns together. --MASEM (t) 17:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That source also mentions the debate about AdSense as well and gets clarification from Intel. So that looks like a settled issue now. — Strongjam (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to post this! Masem, I'm open to suggestions (out just go ahead and edit as I did). In not sure my proposed framework is feasible, as a lot of the Gamergate rationale is too far under the radar to get reported. News reporters understand the news cycle and don't take accusations of collusion seriously where it clearly doesn't exist. This, alongside GameJournoPros, forms a lot of Gamergate's internal credo or creation myth, but it probably isn't as widely reported as the latter. I'm still working on good, strong sources for this, because without understanding this conspiracy theory about a press that attacked gamers out of the blue it's rather difficult to work out quite why Gamergate activism took the form that it did. -TS 17:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion would be along the lines (this is a very broad stroke, there can be a few quotes injected and the like,) of "GG supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece from Gamasutra. They were also taken back by comments made by Sam Biddle of the Gawker networks that called for bullying of nerds in light of the harassment. In response, the GG supporters organized separate email campaigns to target advertizers that were promoted on these sites to express their concerns as part of a "consumer revolt". "Operation Disrespectful Nod" was aimed at sites like Gamasutra that discussed the end of the gamer identity. Some advertizers did pull their ads, leading some journalists to claim their there getting involved in a larger situation without understanding the full extent. In one case, Intel did pull their ads from Gamasutra but later reinstated them, stating that they had not planned on taking a position in the larger controversy. In "Operation Baby Seal", GG supporters turned to Google and Amazon's ad services which Gawker Media cites had used to point out violations on various Gawker sites against these service's AUP/TOS. The tactic of targetting the ad providers than the advertizers themselves was considered "a whole other scale" and has the potential, if successful, to financially harm Gawker." Much of the quotes given in that otherwise are excessive or just too much detail. --MASEM (t) 18:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
That reads okay to me and I love its brevity. Be bold! One thing I'd suggest adding is a brief reference to the Advertising Age report, which is more than just a chatterbox piece. --TS 19:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
It'll have to be a off-page draft (The article's fully locked down and while I can edit it as admin, that would be a major "involved" conflict.) --MASEM (t) 19:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Based on Masem's bit, but for clarity, just want to focus on the Intel issue now rather than try and get everything in one go. I agree with the overall thrust of tightening this section a lot, though.
Gamergate supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece in Gamasutra. In response, supporters organized "Operation Disrespectful Nod," an e-mail campaign to advertisers demanding that they drop several involved publications. After receiving complaints from Gamergate supporters, Intel withdrew an ad campaign from Gamasutra in October. Intel's decision was widely criticized as an endorsement of the movement, leading to a corporate statement which apologized for appearing to take sides in the controversy. In mid-November, Intel began advertising on Gamasutra again, and said the site's readership was an important market for the company. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Seems generally fine. I'd like to see if we can cut the Gawker/Op Baby Seal section similarly to a para so that these two (both about targetting advertizing) can be treated in the same section. The DiGRA stuff is a different aspect and does need a separate section. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
We should make it clear that Gamasutra's target audience is game developers, not gamers. This should have been clear from the wording of Leigh Alexander's widely misread "'Gamers' are over" article. --TS 22:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
While the intent is clear from the article and the fact Gamasutra is a site for devs + publishers and less for gamers, I do believe we can also source the fact the specific article was geared towards the devs/pubs. I just can't locate which source(s) were clear on that point. --MASEM (t) 02:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Be bold with the working draft at Draft:Gamergate controversy. The sooner we get a trimmed account in there the sooner we can tweak it. Sometimes too much discussion makes us forget that the aim is to edit the article. --TS 21:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Instead of working on a draft with very little visibility, I recommend just pushing for unprotection so the article can be edited in the open. Not happy with the drive by full-protection when we already have sanctions in place. - hahnchen 03:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
As soon as there is anything that has widespread support an edit request will get it "visible". (and really, "drive by full protection" ??) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Proposed edits to this article do not enjoy widespread support. The only thing full protection has ever done in this article is to stop improvement. Would rather admins started actually blocking people instead of punishing everyone, readers included. - hahnchen 03:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
@Hahnchen: I am confused as to why you think that if there is no ability to gain wide consensus via working on a draft article that there will be any chance of gaining consensus on the live article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
From experience. This article has been fully protected twice before, each time resulting in a halt of article development. - hahnchen 00:08, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
If you want to stay in the past and wait till it is unlocked, instead of working to gain consensus now in drafts off-air, that is your decision. But you will not be able to make a very convincing argument "Take the protection off because we cannot come to consensus."; a "We have found a way to work together to get consensus" is a much more convincing platform to offer. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
No, the argument is "Take the protection off because protection only harms the article." But it's not convincing because administrators don't want to engage, a reduction in their workload is more important than this article's improvement. - hahnchen 20:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
i think you would have a hard time convincing anyone that "protection" is harming the article. "editwarring " and "POV pushing" are harming the article. Consensus in editing will improve the article and on the draft it appears to be doing so. If you are not willing to participate in consensus editing to improve the article, i fear your days editing the article at all are numbered. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

the telegraph has covered it now -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we've got that one noted above, we're using that to trim down the section based on Intel's updated statement since it was a return to the status quo after all said and done. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
"A Spokesman for Intel" Nobody gets named, no sources are provided. :/ --DSA510 Pls No H8 01:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing your belief that Intel, Gamasutra and The Telegraph are lying about Intel's advertising decisions. Please take conspiracy theorizing elsewhere. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

New sources 2014-11-15

Here are some new links that have turned up in the past 24 hours on a gamergate Google News search. Some of the content may be useful. I've filtered out student newspapers, etc, as not suitable for Misplaced Pages

  • Victims of online threats say perpetrators aren't being caught from MPRNews (NPR). 4 minute talk section with transcript. This ties Gamergate-related misogynistic harassment (particularly the specific death threat against Brianna Wu) to wider issue of the harassment of women online.
  • Examining Jim Sterling's Grand Experiment To Create Video Game Journalism Utopia from Forbes contributor Paul Tassi. Discusses Jim Sterling's decision to leave The Escapist and take his flamboyant video-based games journalism to ]'s donation-based funding model. Although courted by Gamergate as a natural ally because of his strong support for consumer rights, Jim has been vocally critical of Gamergate and has always been highly critical of the violent threats against Anita Sarkeesian which emerged in 2012 and continue. Here he says: 'While I was a “champion of the people” for supporting fans during the Mass Effect 3 ending saga, in recent months I’m more of an enemy of the state for publicly stating my grievances with GamerGate. That’s something that could directly translate into a steep decline in financial support using the Patreon model. Standing up for your principles could mean you watch your income fluctuate wildly as you potentially lose supporters.'

TBC. Battery issues. --TS 00:11, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Continuing.

  • Women’s voices rightly pushing to advance gaming culture in the Seattle Times. I think this is important because it's the first newsprint reference I've seen to Kathy Sierra's seminal “Kool-Aid Point” thesis: “The most vocal trolling and ‘hate’ for a brand kicks in HARD once a critical mass of brand fans/users are thought to have ‘drunk the Kool-Aid.’ ” In short, the problem of women in tech is not that women are in tech, but that people think their ideas are actually important."


Once again, it looks like no one is attempting to distinguish between news and opinion pieces as sources. This is an ongoing problem for this article. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
This is an article about a social struggle so we're probably going to need many opinion sources. I'm starting an attempt to father and catalogue the growing wealth of sources so we can decide which ones to use. As an example the Jim Sterling saga hasn't really been covered so far, though it's an example of a guy who is a strong advocate for ethics in gaming journalism but strongly rejects Gamergate as a vehicle. The MPR piece relates recent Gamergate harassment to longstanding harassment of women online. These are aspects that will tend to loom larger as the major events recede into the past and Gamergate is placed into historical context. --TS 02:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
We actually should be trying avoid opinion sources, save for those directly involved, as we are still far too close to the event (if not still in it) that "external" opinions are going to be skewed. We should be trying to avoid excessive opinioning - outside of the necessary broad claims that have been made and the reactions to those. --MASEM (t) 05:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
That's a fine argument; perhaps we are too close to the event for analysis to be relevant, perhaps not. Some of these sources are news reports, not opinion pieces. Some of the opinion pieces also contain useful factual statements that don't exist in other sources we've seen. For instance, the article about Jim Sterling introduces part of the story not previously accessible, and relates directly to the conflict between Gamergate claims about ethics and how that actually plays out in the gaming community. The MPR piece reports factually about severe online harassment. --TS 09:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Outside of the "opinions" / "reactions" / "interpretations" there is no "controversy". Yes, the interpretations will change over time, but that does not mean that we do not document what they are now. Demanding "purely objective" coverage of a "controversy" is as out of place as demanding a "purely objective" game review . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
We have to be careful of documenting the "now" without long-term considerations. Say the far far offchance that it is shown that the harassment only came from a small # of people purposely stirring the pot, and game journalists and GG supporters actually had meaningful discussions one this fact came out (knowing that the harassment was poisoning the well), then nearly half this article is useless. Certainly broader summary of opinions would still be appropriate, but very few of the individual view points that the latter half presents, in as much detail, would be appropriate anymore. And since we can't tell where this will end up, we could be avoiding too much opinion on the "now" and think more on the future of this. --MASEM (t) 23:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
No, we do not WP:CRYSTAL write an article about what the future might bring. RECENTISM is about focusing on the current events around a subject that has a long history- gamergate does not have a long history. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:35, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
No, that's not what the Recentism essay says. This article falls right into the targets of where Recentism can occur - a current event that information is still be generated and the possibility of focusing too much attention on one facet. And just as we cannot use a crystal ball to suggest there might be a positive outcome from GG, we cannot do the same in writing this article with any other presumed outcome in mind. This is why it has been suggested in the previous ArbCom discussion to keep as much to the facts as possible and not focus on the opinions at this time. --MASEM (t) 00:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with Masem on the idea that recentism constrains our thought. In fact my project here is to track thought on this topic over time so we can put it in context. We don't have to react immediately to any one article, but a series of articles saying the same thing over a long period (six months, say) would be worth considering as a trend. This is how we write an encyclopaedia, you know. Patience and attention to detail. --TS 01:47, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Formatting error

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In this correction by Fut.Perf., somehow he finds a duplicate reference and converts it to the <ref name="whatever"/> format in the {{reflist}} list. Can it be removed?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This got archived because no one answered.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Done got fixed. --PresN 06:29, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Sargon's anti-feminism

The pseudonymous YouTube broadcaster Sargon of Akkad is discussed in the context of the role of anti-feminism in Gamergate. Routinely he is referred to as anti-feminist because that's what he does, it's his thing. His videos have titles like "Feminism is a mental illness", " The Feminist Inquisition ", and "The feminist ideological conquest of DiGRA". They're almost all about the damage Sargon thinks is done by feminism.

This isn't controversial so it should be okay to refer to these self-published videos (no, a link isn't necessary for a reference, naming and dating the video is fine for the purposes of an encyclopaedia). I think this is a correct interpretation of WP:SELFPUB. My reference has been removed from the draft, though. Do we have any particular reason for not referring to this fellow's views in the context of a section of an article expressly about the role of people with such views? Here we're discussing a specific ideological position which Sargon makes a particular point of representing, and that's why we include him in the article. --TS 10:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed; this is not WP:OR or WP:SYNTH in any meaningful fashion. Sargon of Akkad is, self-professedly and self-evidently, opposed to feminism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Why wouldn't we link it? Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
It's impossible because YouTube links are blacklisted. References are enough. --TS 14:36, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Other articles have YouTube links as references, so there's no obvious reasons why these direct links should be discriminated against as well. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
YouTube videos are rarely a reliable source, unless they're something like an official video from a well-respected news source. Everything else has either limited use as a self-published source or is unusable as a copyright violation. Woodroar (talk) 15:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Right, neither of which is a problem for this specific video in question. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:32, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, you're right. This is fine. For some reason I thought you were asking or commenting on the more general question of using YouTube videos as references. Woodroar (talk) 18:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
This seems fine, he has been referred to others, and as long as you're referring to his opinions, just don't make it an attack. Calling him more along the lines of "antifeminist vlogger" would be enough probably, it doesn't deserve much detail. HalfHat 14:55, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Nope, it's original research. The last video you said does not clearly communicate antifeminism, while the first two appear to be him raging about some rather absurd proposals made by apparent feminists. One was a proposal in New Zealand to require defendants in rape cases to prove consent to avoid conviction i.e. prove their innocence, while another was a proposal to have the men's rights movement declared a terrorist organization following the Isla Vista killings. Your insistence on using those to prove a point about his beliefs is straightforward original research.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 19:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
agreeing with The Devil's Advocate, saying he is anti feminist is original research until a RS is found which states that Avono (talk) 20:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Does the fact that he sells t-shirts with the words "this is what an anti-feminist looks like" make it reasonable to call him anti feminist? It seems obvious that he is anti-feminist, but at the same time I question the sanity of citing a novelty t-shirt as a source. Bosstopher (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

In view of Avono's and The Devil's Advocate's objections, I conclude that the primary sources are not enough, and will edit the article working draft text to refer to the Inside Higher Ed source's formulation of “gaming, anti-feminism, history and fiction”. We work with what we've got. --TS 21:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I've done that now. Please take a look and see if this is unfair. The discussion there concerns people who have been highly critical of feminism in the past now moving on to the claim· that feminism is using academic research of gaming as a cover for a conspiracy to take over and radically change the gaming industry. If the most controversial part the article it's whether or not the people making this massive conspiracy theory are anti feminists, I think we're close to reaching consensus. Further, I think this article probably needs more Sargon. It doesn't make much sense to introduce him and then not really talk about his ideas. --TS 21:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
That one source section is already too long. I wouldn't reference Sargon at all. I'd take the first sentence, a quote from Consalvo, and then move it into the prose at "Role of misogyny and antifeminism". - hahnchen 23:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I think this probably belongs more in the End of Gamer identity section, but even the draft version is a bit too slanted. A good statement regarding it would be "GamerGate supporters criticized the Digital Games Research Association due to several pieces on the fate of the gamer identity referencing the group's research, suggesting the organization has been 'co-opted by feminists to become a think tank by which gender ideologues can disseminate their ideology to the gaming press and ultimately to gamers'. Dr. Mia Consalvo, president of DiGRA, said that the effort to discredit its members' research demonstrates 'hostility to feminism' and a failure to understand academic research in humanities. She argued that 'what they’re trying to do is say if you’re a feminist, your work is automatically discredited. You are discredited. You are not an academic.'" The heading should remove the loaded term "antifeminism" as well.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
No, it really shouldn't. If your ideology is that "feminists have taken something over, therefore it's bad," then your ideology is, by definition, anti-feminist. It is not "loaded" to accurately describe an ideology. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:07, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
That's your rather simplistic interpretation of what the source says about their beliefs and should not be presented as fact, especially when the connotation of the statement can be "opposes the rights of women" since I am pretty sure that does not accurately describe everyone criticizing DiGRA or even Sargon of Akkad.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
NBSB - your statement is only true if you are an ideologue which appears to be what you are arguing for. If a person's view is any "-ism" is bad for a collective group, that doesn't make them anti-anything except "anti -ism." To quote Ferris Bueller -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. Probably shouldn't edit the article if you're an ideologue. --DHeyward (talk) 00:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that you shouldn't edit the article if you don't think Sargon of Akkad promotes anti-feminism, because that would indicate a significant failure to understand the sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
What sources would that be? Personally I don't even think he's notable enough for mention let alone labeling him. His name is "Sargon of Akkad" and you seriously think he needs space in the encyclopedia because YouTube? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? A myopic view that everything is political and ideological is why this article is a mess. It would be a much better article to write as observers of the ideologues than to become them. --DHeyward (talk) 01:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The main point of the Higher Ed article seems to be the conspiracy theory mindset. If we condense the specific DIGRA/Sargon incident covered in that article and include the other places where this has come up, we dont have to deal specifically with whether or not someone who thinks feminism is a mental illness is anti-feminist (hint, if you have any question about the right answer, you probably need to go back to school). -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

As I said above, I don't think he literally believes it is a mental illness or even that he was being all too serious in that statement. He was raging about some petition asking for the men's rights movement to be declared a terrorist group and was basically just going after the people who proposed that nonsensical action. From what I can tell, Inside Higher Ed is the only reliable source delving into this subject at the moment.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:37, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I thinkTheRedPenOfDoom is probably right. This is an academic source going WTF in bright red letters. More Sargon would be fun but it probably wouldn't make the article that much better. --TS 00:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that we have all the Sargon we need, and then some. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Playing DA here. Perhaps the feminism Sargon appears to be so opposed to, is the more, shall I say, fearmongering one? "All men are rapists" "Kill all men" "Die cis scum". I certainly would not be supportive of such a group, even if it does earn me the unfortunate label of "anti-feminist". --DSA510 Pls No H8 5:44 pm, Today (UTC−8)

What I meant was, what defines an "antifeminist". --DSA510 Pls No H8 01:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
We don't get to decide that. That was the outcome of the discussion. I removed your inflammatory comments because they added nothing except heat. The issue is decided; Sargon's speech alone cannot be conclusively be used to support the description " anti-feminist". There would always be a narrow tunnel of doubt. We move on. --TS 03:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
that seems awfully similar to character assassination. Remember WP:BLP applies to both sides, whether the narrative likes it or not. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Using this talk page for discussing edits to the working draft

Wasn't the whole purpose of the draft space page to allow discussion on the proposed draft be there rather than clutter up this one?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anything to be gained from bifurcating content discussions across two talk pages. The intention of creating a draft is simply to permit content to be developed while the article is fully protected. --TS 11:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Well the original reason I had moved it into the draft space was because someone complained that a subpage of this page could not have a subsequent talk page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I've made the draft talk page into a redirect to this talk page. I think that's best because it means editors can click the talk/discuss link on the draft and they join this discussion. While I'm not completely opposed to having two distinct talk pages, I am concerned that doing so would limit the exposure of draft issues. We're more likely to arrive at consensus on the draft if it has wider exposure rather than being hothoused to a smaller group. --TS 15:22, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
support the single site for content discussion.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:52, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Editors on this page cannot just decide to "nuke this entire article". The required process is outlined at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion. If you wish, you may follow the steps there, but discussion here on that issue is pointless. Gamaliel (talk) 07:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While the draft is being written, THIS article still exists. I.E this article is creating a false narrative and contributes to creating the news on the net. So while the draft is still being written, this currently existing article can not be ignored and left unattended. Or are you saying that people should not be allowed to object to this article being used as a propaganda piece?--Thronedrei (talk) 06:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
WP:SOAPBOX. Do you have policy-based suggestions for improving the article with reliable sources, or are you just going to ramble on about propaganda? Barring administrator intervention, no one is editing this article until November 22. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I do. First of all, nuke this entire article until Gamergate is actually over. Secondly, when using reliable sources, unles sthe source provide actual evidence... just include the articles source as "name of journalist working for ect make the claim that ect ect ect".Thronedrei (talk) 06:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, those aren't policy-based suggestions. There's no policy which says we get rid of articles about controversial issues and there's no policy which requires "actual evidence" (whatever that might mean). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages becoming part of the controversy?

The purpose of this talk page is to discuss proposed edits to the article. This section contains both serious allegations and serious misunderstandings of the workings of Misplaced Pages. As is said below, editors on either side of the debate are allowed to do whatever they want off Misplaced Pages. Gamaliel (talk) 07:10, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/2mj5ds/im_ryulong/ this very Misplaced Pages is being discussed as well as other issues surrounding GG. I have warned about this before, writing a GG article while GG is still happening makes the wikipedia article actually apart of the controversy itself -- I.E wikipedia is taking part in creating what it is writing about and thus it can be argued that wikipedia as per wikipedia should not be allowed to edit an article about itself? So for future reference, should stuff like this be included in the article?--Thronedrei (talk) 06:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages had the chance to be neutral and nuke the article. Now it's too late. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
They can still nuke it. At the very least it would no longer provide yet another platform for propaganda.--Thronedrei (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure this article is being widely discussed on any number of pro- and anti-GG forums. Are any of them reliable sources? No? Then no, we won't include them in the article. We don't tend to navel-gaze in articlespace. If there is significant reliable-source coverage at some point, then that's another matter. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
So if editors collude with say a journalist (not so in this case) and there is proof, then this should not be mentioned? See bias ect ect ect I know it isn't sources per say, but this is disingenuous. Since the reliable sources never provide any actual evidence, in theory wikipedia staff could feed a journalists "info" who in turn could write an articles which would then be accepted as "reliable source" and be included in the very article said theoretical editor was editing. I'm not saying this happened in this case; but that is why I was asking if stuff like this should be relevant to the actual article. At the very least if an editor shows they are inserting themselves into the actual subject the article is written about, then they no longer qualify as an editor since people and organizations (per wikipedia rule) are not allowed to edit articles about themselves.--Thronedrei (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not understanding what you mean by "collude" here. Misplaced Pages is explicitly a cooperative project where editors are encouraged to talk with each other and work together to improve articles. Offering what are basically speculative conspiracy theories about Misplaced Pages editors is not what this talk page is for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
oh so wait I can talk to pro-gg? Yay! Now I get to cut out my middleman spy. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Something like that yes. Allowing himself to be "interviewed" by an anti-gg, he is compromising his integrity as a mod for this article. By the by, articles should not be written by people taking part in the actual controversy. So no, people actually involved and using the hashtag Gamergate should not edit this article either -- they should be allowed to post suggestions here on the talkpage though and provide links and info. The problem with mods though is that they can actually over ride and have more sway over articles than a normal contributor on the talkpage.Thronedrei (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
This is why i don't make many edits, i mostly post here. Also what your talking about is cytogenisis. Retartist (talk) 06:59, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm allowed to do whatever I want off of Misplaced Pages, Thronedrei.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I would like to say that this seem to be a weak proposal to improve the article, so please note NOTAFORUM. To start with, NorthBySouthBaranof has the correct argument; it should not be unless we have a reliable source. However, I would like to note that the reason we have this article is that this article passed the Guidelines for Notability. In addition, I would like to note that we do have a Misplaced Pages article on Misplaced Pages, so Misplaced Pages editors do edit Misplaced Pages. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DiGRA conspiracy (Draft)

Arguuing that DiGRA is full of "feminists" not "academics" is not in and of itself a conspiracy theory. You have to say what the conspiracy theory is, it just looks like it's being used as a lazy way to discredit the claim. One source is cited, it mentions conspiracy theory once, and it is just using it in a derogatory fashion, which is fine for a piece like that, but not for Misplaced Pages. HalfHat 11:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if messsy, I was checking stuff as I wrote this, I'll be happy to clarify any parts. HalfHat 11:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
You are welcome to your own opinions, not your own facts. The reliable source explicitly calls it a "conspiracy theory" and you may not simply offhandedly dismiss that fact because you don't like its implications or because you disagree with that characterization. Our articles are based on what reliable sources say, not what Misplaced Pages editors' opinions are. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
If the only source on (let make a GG "Operation Sweeper") called "Operation Sweeper" a "pile of shit" we wouldn't say "Operation Sweeper is a pile of shit". No it's being used as an insult, when it was referred to as a conspiracy theory once, with no clarification as to what that alleged conspiracy is, it's being used as an insult, that's not what we do. HalfHat 11:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Once again, your personal opinion of how it's used is interesting, but not relevant. The reliable source's perspective that it is a conspiracy theory, on the other hand, is indisputably relevant. That you do not like the implications of that is apparent. I'm sorry the reliable sources don't describe Gamergate the way you want them to. That's not Misplaced Pages's fault. You can blame it on some giant secret cabal conspiracy of all the media, or you can consider that, from the outside looking in, claiming that DiGRA is "controlled by feminists" does appear to be a wildly-absurd conspiracy theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually make an argument. This is just "no I'm right". HalfHat 11:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It's not a matter of who's right — it's a matter of the fact that your personal opinion doesn't change what the reliable source says. The reliable source says it's a conspiracy theory. Your disagreement with that fact doesn't constitute reasonable grounds to omit the statement, given that it's based on nothing more than a (clearly-biased) personal opinion that it's "lazy" and "derogatory." We don't omit reliably-sourced "derogatory" material just because a member of the aggrieved group disagrees with it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Where does WP:RS say we should take everything literally? We don't insult things in Misplaced Pages's voice, it's an insult. HalfHat 11:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
We describe many, many things as conspiracy theories, when reliable sources so describe them. See Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory, Oklahoma City bombing conspiracy theories, 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc. etc. etc. That you believe it is an insult is of no consequence. You fundamentally misunderstand Misplaced Pages if you believe that a group is entitled to reject or discount the findings of mainstream reliable sources when that group disagrees with its characterization by reliable sources. Points of view within articles are weighted based on their prevalence in mainstream reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The difference is these things are claims people made of people conspiring together i.e. a conspiracy theory, this is not the case here. And again it was only called a conspiracy theory once, in the entire article, the draft calls it a conspiracy theory more often. HalfHat 11:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Umm, yeah. Claiming that "feminists have taken over DiGRA to push their agenda" is, yes, a conspiracy theory claim, as per literally the dictionary: "a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators". That's literally what they're arguing, so "not the case here" doesn't seem well-founded. Seems to be entirely the case here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:38, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
But that is not what's said. Where does it say the accusation is of a feminist plot to push their agenda? HalfHat 11:47, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Right in the article, that's where. “I’d like to show you how the Digital Games Research Association became co-opted by feminists to become a think tank by which gender ideologues can disseminate their ideology to the gaming press and ultimately to gamers,” Sargon says in the video. “This is probably the unseen driving force that ultimately triggered the Gamergate phenomenon.” NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even sure how you think the Sargon quote implies conspiracy, he's simply says DiGRA probably caused GG. The first one still doesn't imply collosion or some plot, it's again not a Conspiracy theory, it also appears to be just some random nobody. HalfHat 12:07, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not a matter of what I think. What I think doesn't matter. It's what the source thinks. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It was you who quoted quotes not me, I was showing those quoted quoted don't help your case. You haven't shown the source holds that opinion, at all. HalfHat 12:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
First of all I'm not sure why you seem to think calling a conspiracy theory automatically counts as a smear and makes it wrong. See Operation Ajax for an example of a conspiracy theory that was actually true, so I dont get why you care so much about the usage of that word. Secondly, Sargon is arguing that DiGRA is an "unseen driving force" the implication is very much one of a secretive conspiracy. His story is one in which feminists remove academics from DiGRA hijacking it unnoticed to carry out evil. How is this not a conspiracy theory? Bosstopher (talk) 14:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't automatically, that's just how it's being used here. HalfHat 14:32, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
You're reading things into the quote that aren't there. He never actually says there was any plot or collusion to co-opt DiGRA, only that it had been. HalfHat 14:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
What matters is not how you personally read his statements, but how reliable sources do. And the reliable sources we have now agree that what he's describing is a conspiracy theory; going into it yourself and saying "well, but as an editor I personally don't think that this is a conspiracy theory because X, Y, and Z" is original research. --Aquillion (talk) 15:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Where does he do that? And that's not what I'm doing, I'm pointing out people are reading things into it that aren't there. HalfHat 16:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem using the source's opinion it is a "conspiracy theory" within the section, but as the section title, at least until we have more sources, this is about their movement against DiGRA, and it not impartial to title that section "Feminism as a conspiracy theory" as it is now. --MASEM (t) 20:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
If a reliable source dismisses the claims then we should not categorize it as an opinion of that source but simply the fact that the claim has been dismissed. We cannot keep demoting the statements made in reliable sources just because they become involved in Gamergate due to the fact the movement picks new targets every time someone writes something critical.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
A single RS, which is not enough to classify the DiGRA stuff. And this is not about demoting their stance - the content calling it a conspiracy theory from the standpoint of the DiGRA president is right in line with the sourcing, but we couldn't immediately be picking a side that the DiGRA's stance is the "right" one in terms of naming the header. --MASEM (t) 20:38, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. The "conspiracy theory" phrase is not "from the standpoint of DiGRA's president," it is stated in the voice of the reliable news source. The journalist is describing it as a conspiracy theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The reality is that the term "conspiracy theory" has inherently negative connotations and is being used exactly once. Many partisan writers or partisan outlets refer to things as "conspiracy theories" that are actually mainstream views other outlets take as accurate or plausible. In this case we only have one source using this term in exactly one instance. For context here is the preceding paragraph:

At DiGRA’s annual conference this August, Shaw and Consalvo participated in a roundtable session on “identity and diversity in game culture.” Notes from the roundtable were discovered online, showing how participants discussed the impact of feminist game studies on the video game industry, and whether academics could influence developers. Some interpreted it as proof that members of DiGRA were actively plotting to influence game development.

A link to the notes is provided and you can see them here. Let me lay out some of the comments:

How has feminist game studies influenced developers and games? Where’s the impact outside of academia?

Great conversations here, but those conversations do not occur outside of a group like this. What can we do to bridge this? What about when being published on Kotaku is a bad thing, rather than a positive signal boosting thing?

How can academics bridge the gap to the industry audience to help them do different work? How can we disrupt the capitalist norms that facilitate this?

Academia needs to push for more radical positions within the industry to help make things better.

Staying helps us change things more. Gamasutra will shut down negative conversation at least in part because they’ve had their awareness raised by academics.

The way the system values peer review is bullshit, as the money accrues in the hands of private corporations. How can we do the work and have it benefit us?

Figure out what you have an how to best use it. How can you exploit the system and use it to your best advantage? Determine the rules and the rules you want and try to bring them together.

DiGRA is not "you." It is "us." I've been trying to make change for a long time, and I've discovered that you have to do it yourself, but you don't have to do it by yourself. When we were 10 people in a room being like "Fuck the IGF" – we made it happen. Now we're a thing, and people can rebel against it.

Is it any surprise that people reading these kinds of comments come to the conclusion that "members of DiGRA were actively plotting to influence game development"? How is it even a conspiracy theory to say that when they discuss how to influence the industry and say how they have already influenced the industry?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Your opinion and original research does not change the reliably-sourced description of the claims as a conspiracy theory. Our articles are not based on an editor's novel interpretation of primary sources, as you apparently wish it to be. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
They're not based the single opinion of one person quoted in an article. Misplaced Pages cannot call the GG side a "conspiracy theory" in the WP voice. It's fine as a statement within that section that one person considers their side in regards to DiGRA a conspiracy theory, but those words have no place in a section header. This is not original research, this is straight up NPOV. --MASEM (t) 21:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Once again, Masem, you are just straight-up wrong about the source and seem keen to demonstrate that you have not actually read it. The cited source is not an opinion column, it is a reported news story from a reliable, neutral news source. The statement is not a quote from a party involved in the dispute - rather, the reporter describes the claims about DiGRA as a conspiracy theory. That you disagree with this perspective is noted. The fact that you disagree does not negate the reliably-sourced description. You are hell-bent on ignoring reliable sources because you don't like the conclusions they draw. Once again, I'm sorry that reliable sources view GamerGate's claims as ridiculous nonsense. That does not permit you to reject that reality and substitute your own. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It's an opinion piece, not a factual piece. 90% of the material on the GG article are opinion pieces, expressing opinion based on the limited amount of facts we have. This doesn't make them unreliable when they are reporting facts (eg there was harassment, etc.), but that means that we have to know where the line between fact and opinion is drawn, and one writer's claim that it is an conspiracy theory cannot set it up as fact that we can state in WP's voice. A lot of this requires looking at context, and not taking one statement out of context. I suspect the writer got the idea of "conspiracy" theory speaking to Consalvo, given where it falls. Note that there's a "bare" sentence here As a result, the research produced by DiGRA board members has become “sloppy and unprofessional and absolutely overrun by people who have an ideological agenda that they simply cannot leave out of their research.” which by the same logic you are using to state "conspiracy theory" as fact, means that this sentence should be fact. Neither of those are the case; the bulk here from this article are useful opinion statements surrounding the DiGRA push. We have to be clear that that is an opinion statement.I'm not saying to ignore RSes, but to make sure we are fully clear that anything that is not clear fact that it is put in the proper "voice" and not WP's. --MASEM (t) 21:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

This is definitely a news report in the news section of the website. In the body of the section we actually quote Sargon from the article outlining his highly speculative notion that there is some kind of feminist fifth column being used to force change in gaming. --TS 21:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The bulk of the sources we have already in the that are expressing opinions are also "news" columns; mind you, this is from the VG and tech sources and less from the mainstream sources. We have to be aware that the journalist side across the board is, even unintentionally, going to take a defensive stance towards GG because GG is attacking them. In this particular article, as I've pointed out above, it doesn't make a good line where it is quoting opinion and where it is making a factual statement, and if one reads it, standing back away from the controversy, the article is framed around an interview that the author did with Consalvo, and then by pulling details from the Sargon videos, but that's it.
And to stress this point again - just because they are opinion pieces does not make them unusable as North claims I am stating. Only that what the claim has to be put in a voice that is not Misplaced Pages's voice. It is the author's claim that it is a conspiracy theory. That's fine, but that doesn't make it a fact it is a conspiracy theory, especially if this is the only person that has said that. --MASEM (t) 22:07, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
And to be clear: the section text is fine, save for the header by calling it a "conspiracy theory" based on one author. The section is about the DiGRA push, nothing else. --MASEM (t) 22:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Calling it a "conspiracy theory" is what the reliable source describes it as. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
No, not when it is only one source (just like has been asked for most of the claims that have been made from the GG side, like it being a movement, etc.). That's FRINGE/NPOV/IMPARTIAL failures to use that as a section title. The fact the source stated it, sure, that's fine in the prose, I'm not questioning that. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
there are no lack of sources to use. we already use several of them. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Which is fine if we actually spent time talking about the larger conspiracy theory (beyond DiGRA) and claims made by the GG side and turning to the strong criticism and rebuttal of those points made by those sources. However, right now, that section is about the DiGRA stuff and DiGRA stuff only, and calling it a "conspiracy theory" on the DiGRA aspect from one source as the title is a problem. This is what I sorta aluded to in the section below; the larger situation we could call it that, but it is not appropriate to use that term for only one subfactor of this. --MASEM (t) 22:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
A fundamental problem with you POV-pushers is you seem to forget that "verifiability, not truth" was nuked from the policy page for a reason. Just because some journalist says something inflammatory does not mean you are abiding by NPOV by repeating their phrasing as fact. The article has over 1,400 words talking about this matter and you are using two of them to try and discredit the position it is discussing without any regard for the actual facts under discussion. We aren't supposed to be in the business of writing hit pieces on Misplaced Pages. Creep on over to IrrationalWiki or GeekFeminismWiki if you want to spew this bile.-The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure who are are addressing as" POV pushers", however, WP:UNDUE is still clearly a part of the policy. WP:GEVAL is still clearly a part of policy, WP:BALASPS is still clearly a part of policy and dealing with Fringe viewpoints Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Fringe_theories_and_pseudoscience is still clearly a part of the policy. and WP:OR is still clearly a part of policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
None of those policies apply in this case, except in the sense that we're giving undue weight to a single article by including so much material about DiGRA in the first place, never mind presenting this one author's inflammatory statements about other people's reasonable interpretation of evidence as though it were fact.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sure they apply. You are advocating that we dump what the reliable source says and instead WP:OR do our own investigation and place that / complaints from gamergaters at the same level of coverage as the reliable source. WP:BALASPS WP:GEVAL. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I think at this stage we're only arguing over the section heading. I think we could do better than "Feminism as a conspiracy theory", which isn't particularly coherent. As the section is about attacks on DiGRA and associated gaming researchers and the principal source is about these attacks, I suggest we call the section "Gaming researchers under attack". The current content shows clearly what accusations are being made, and we don't have to use words that some editors cannot agree to. --TS 22:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:BOLD, I've gone ahead and renamed the section. --TS 23:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
And, of course, like any good POV-pusher, your "concession" is just as inflammatory as the original POV-pushing.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Could you explain what the problem is here? The section about attacks on researchers. The name surely reflects this accurately. --TS 23:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
What's wrong with something neutral and accurate like "Opposition to DiGRA" anyway? HalfHat 11:26, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

He Said/She Said: The proposed language currently on the draft page makes it unclear just what Inside Higher Education was investigating; the language of the draft as it stands right now suggests that a prestigious journal independently investigated DiGRA and found it had been taken over by feminists. That, were it to enter article space, would soon leave Misplaced Pages a target of ridicule.

But more fundamentally, we are according roughly equal weight here to two disputants. One is a fellow named "Sargon of Akkad" who posts pseudonymous videos on YouTube; we know little else about him. The other is Dr. Mia Consalvo, the Canada Research Chair In Game Studies & Design at Concordia University. We know quite a lot about Mia Consalvo, who teaches courses in "COMS 398H – Cheating, Games and the Ethics of Play Media" and "SPEC 620G – Digital Games: Theory and Research", has delivered research papers most recently at 2nd Annual Symposium on Digital Ethics in Chicago and at the Association of Internet Researchers in Salford, and who has written one book and twenty six published articles about game theory. Yet, one faction here would add a section on the allegation of Sargon of Akkad, and (being impartial) balance that accusation with a quotation from Mia Consalvo. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the wording had not occurred to me, I'm horrified to say. We need to fix that.
The piece _ought_ to make it quite clear that this is crazy conspiracy stuff, and I thought it did. Could you suggest a rewrite? --TS 23:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
That's the opposite of what it should do, a fringe opinion? Yes. But Misplaced Pages should never make out anything to be crazy because Misplaced Pages has no opinions. HalfHat 15:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It's not an issue of balance here; the content of that section seems fine, just the title. To get the viewpoint of Consalvo to explain why being targetted by GG seems silly (from their view), the author at least did try to find out why GG have this and went to Sargon's videos to try to write out how DiGRA is in GG's sights, which thus needs to be stated. The author (and we) post what Sargon's issue is, and then we have two quote from Consalvo which basically call out the logic as inane and a huge stretch of the imagination. Given no other sources have picked up on this point yet, that's a fair balance in the section of why DiGRA is targetted and why DiGRA members are expressing disbelief in that. --MASEM (t)
With respect, MASEM, I believe it is a matter of balance. We’re presenting a charge leveled by a YouTube video by an anonymous individual whose qualifications are unknown, and balancing this with a refutation from a distinguished scholar who leads the organization which has been attacked. Giving this an entire section is wrong. At most, this deserves a one-sentence mention: "Some GamerGate supporters crafted self-published claims and conspiracy theories that Game Studies had been overrun by feminists ." To give more credence to such stuff -- much less to insinuate that Inside High Education launched an investigation into the question (!) -- is to lend the project’s weight to the tassels at the end of the WP:FRINGE. MarkBernstein (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Read the linked article - this is not one semi-anonymous person charging one respected person. The whole of GG have started a new tangent from their ad-removal campaigns to target anyone in the DiGRA organization that is "pro-feminist" and try to affect their reputations by saying they aren't academics. That's the bigger store here. --MASEM (t) 00:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
if true, the current draft does not credibly reflect this interpretation. I assume, then, you agree with me that it must be discarded and replaced? 03:59, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
No, the section is following the source. It says GGs are targetting the group, it explains why by using one of the few established viewpoints from the GG side (Sargon's piece), and then it gives a full out rebuttal of the "WTF" nature from the president of the association being attacked. It could use a few more sources/voices, but it is accurately talking about the DiGRA piece. It's not a "he said she said" thing as it is written. --MASEM (t) 04:10, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't see that there's any indication that "the whole of GG" buys into this. Even if true, that wouldn't necessarily make their allegations any more credible or interesting; this isn't a popularity contest. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, maybe not the whole, but this doesn't appear to be an isolated effort; if you explore their pages, the DiGRA angle is one of their broadcasted "how to get involved" steps, like the advertising angle, etc. --MASEM (t) 04:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

From the archives (the talk page discussion at the time veered quickly off onto other subjects, so I'm not sure if it's useful.) The International Communication Association member newsletter talked about this. It might be useful as a source, but I'm not sure if it's WP:RS. If it was one of their journals I wouldn't question it, but this is from their newsletter. — Strongjam (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Their response (warning their members that they could become involved) is good to include. --MASEM (t) 17:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

An example of non-impartial writing

This change by North is an example of what persists in the present article of non-impartial writing. There is no reason to move the statement of the DiGRA stuff being a conspiracy theory before the theory is explained out (per FRINGE), save to pre-judge the subsequent discussion of that theory, which WP should not be doing. After one side is presented, we can throw all the possible criticism and claims against it we can find, eg keeping the conspiracy theory fact, but putting it that early purposely makes the subsequent discussion of the GG side in question. WP cannot be a judge of this stuff. (If this was a longer section that needs an introductory paragraph that in good writing would provide how the section would be laid out, eg, like our lede, then yes, it would be fine to call it out earlier and then going into more detail later. But a 2 paragraph section does not need an intro like that). --MASEM (t) 18:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

To expand further, the ordering of opinions is a key issue with the impartial nature of this article. The bulk of the content/sourcing is fine, but the article is written to immediately say "Here's the GG side, but no one in the press believes it", so that any discussion of the GG is already tainted by the opinions of others. We'll absolutely get to those opinions in the article, but to put those that high up in the discussion (and not part of a summary like the lede) is basically WP telling the reader "This stance isn't valid", which is a judgement call on WP's part. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The difficulty arises when you have a paragraph saying "Sargon says there are Communists in the state department" and only mention in the following paragraph that "no significant authorities believe this, and Sargon has presented no credible evidence." I continue to doubt that Sargon’s conspiracy theory merits more than the briefest of mentions. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:59, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Are you saying Sargon has presented no credible evidence that there are feminists in DiGRA? Are you aware the president of DiGRA is literally a member of a group called the Fembot Collective?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 19:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
There are doubtless feminists, vegetarians, Democrats, and Francophones in DiGRA. As far as I know, professors in Canada are free to join the Fembot Collective, the Maple Leafs Fan Club, or the Association amicale des amateurs d'andouillette authentique. Feminists might study computer games, just as Marxists, economists, and Baptists might. But what has this to do with the Gamergate controversy? MarkBernstein (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The mere fact that someone is a feminist is not evidence, much less proof, of the vast feminist conspiracy that Sargon believes exists. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Masem, we are not going to mention what is demonstrably a fringe conspiracy theory without immediately mentioning the fact that the only reliable source to cover it considers it to be a conspiracy theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of insidehighered as a source

I'm splitting this up because I could see this getting quite long and these discussion are largely unrelated. HalfHat 12:30, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Please also note the reliable source for the DiGRA CT also states The Gamergate controversy was sparked this August after a video game developer was accused by an ex-boyfriend of trading sexual favors for positive media coverage. Since then, the movement’s twists and turns have been as convoluted as the plot of a Japanese role-playing game.. It then goes on to describe the rest of GG controversy with its various aspects. It's much more balanced and accurate than the article we have. Please review that source as a template. --DHeyward (talk) 12:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this article is well within the mainstream — brief mentions of the fact that GamerGate claims to be interested in journalism ethics, extensive mention of the fact that its actions have had nothing to do with journalism ethics.
While the movement may at times appear scattered, supporters have occasionally been able to focus their attention to devastating results. Some of Gamergate’s critics, including media critic Anita Sarkeesian and developer Brianna Wu, were forced into hiding this fall after being bombarded with threats of violence and sexual assault, or seeing personal information about themselves or family members published online. Yup, it describes it pretty well, that's for sure. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
And I think the WP article is lacking the balance of the Higher Ed piece. It's focused on DiGRA but it's account of how GG got to DiGRA is much more balanced and NPOV. One camp within the movement has blasted video game journalists for being too close to the industry they cover, demanding that news outlets reform their ethical guidelines. But another camp has used that crusade as an excuse to harass video game critics -- particularly women (some of whom are academics) -- who have questioned whether games accurately represent and include groups other than stereotypical white males. is a very accurate description that is much more balanced. --DHeyward (talk) 12:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Our article has plenty of "but ethics" .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
If you can't discuss without invective, then don't. Your reply that "but ethics" is balance is lacking both NPOV and a dispassionate approach to the article. If the article was even remotely NPOV and dispassionate, it would be short and not filled with garbage sideshows. The Higher Ed source should be nearly replicated for the opening line of what started gamergate and what it splintered into. The detail DiGRA stuff in source can be culled to a reasonable paragraph. --DHeyward (talk) 14:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
But his point is valid. Our current article covers the arguments about ethics to the extent that it's reflected in reliable sources (probably if anything it is given a bit too much attention, since, as you noted, the article is overly-long; and since going by most sources it isn't really what's notable about this topic.) A bit part of the problem with the article's length comes from the fact that it's trying to be an obsessively detailed play-by-play of every blow and counterblow in an ongoing internet argument; it should instead focus on the aspects that have attracted the most attention from reliable sources. Arguments that this is about ethics rate relatively low on that, and therefore don't deserve as much coverage as (say) discussions of cultural and social warfare, or about the nature of harassment in the internet age. --Aquillion (talk) 15:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I think the ship has long sailed on our article ever (wrongly) treating "but ethics" and "but harassment" as equal points of view. They aren't, as borne out by reliable sources. The ethics claim deserves coverage, but not prominent or substantial coverage. Tarc (talk) 16:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
A point to consider on the DiGRA stuff is that as an primarily academic angle, its coverage is going to be different than the coverage from journalism ethics that are much more mainstream. Arguable, its also a very different tactic that isn't related to the ethics because it is directly accusing those on DiGRA trying to promote a specific view; it's related to the "culture war" aspect that GG is, but it is far from "ethics", which is why it is a much more interesting tactic (for better or worse). The stuff about targetting Gamasutra and Gawker - that's rather straightforward, but not this. --MASEM (t) 16:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Eh, that's a red herring. GamerGater "but ethics" stuff has always been a dumb witchhunt with no connection to actual ethics. Artw (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It makes no sense to ignore the fact there are RS-sourced ethics claims and specific responses/criticism to those claims (including dismissive ones). There of course is the "but ethics!" facet that ties to the harassment angle, that's clear and obvious, but there has been enough consideration of the self-stated ethics claims that we have those documented already, and we cannot bury them as if they were never documented in good RSes, even if the same RSs that documented rebutted them. This piece on the DiGRA side is a facet that I know, by reading through the proGG stuff, reflects this "concern" the proGG side that their favorite industry is being pushed in a direction, which is reflective of the culture war aspect, and it ties to the ethics in that they are pointing out that the journalists are being complicit in helping this agenda be pushed if they aren't disclosing connections/avoiding topics they are close to (this is their view, paraphrased, not mine); however, sourcing wise, there is very little yet to be said (nor do I suggest we need or can say), as much of that requires deep reading of GG statements, which most of the press has waved off already one the harassment stuff escalated. --MASEM (t) 19:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Aside from the highly speculative notions expressed by Sargon, in which he depicts feminism as a kind of fifth column within academia trying to enact change in gaming, is there anything else to this ethics concern? I think the draft covers Sargon's concerns, for what they're worth, quite well. Is there anything else to it? I only know what reliable sources say, for the most part, though I also follow Jenni Goodchild (pixiejenni) on Twitter. Is there perhaps a document on her website that might illustrate these concerns? I'm aware of her attempt to catalogue and record Gamergate concerns, and she focuses particularly on DiGRA, though of course she is clearly an outspoken critic of Gamergate. --TS 20:10, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The draft text in terms of the "amount" of discussion of Sargon's point, is fine. I'm just suggesting that ther emay be more on this facet that I know exists in the proGG viewpoint but difficult to source reliably at all, but if we can source it reliably (most likely as commentary from others pointing out issues with the line of thought) we should not bury that information. --MASEM (t) 20:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I think we're on the same page, as far as coverage is concerned. Since I wrote the previous comment I've been scanning Jenni's survey website to see if I could find concerns about academia that hadn't been covered in reliable sources. No luck there. We cannot cover concerns that aren't even being expressed. --TS 20:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Dead link in 130 of draft

" and "Gamergate", news release on DiGRA website, November 5, 2014" Here's the link given http://www.digra.org/digra-and-gamergate/DiGRA HalfHat 18:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Should be this. TS has already fixed it. — Strongjam (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice. I'd forgotten to check the link in the reference. --TS 21:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sony boss on Gamergate

Forthright condemnation of violence and harassment, but rather vague on Gamergate.


http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-11-17-sonys-layden-harassment-completely-unacceptable

--TS 20:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Perfect for the "Industry response" section. added to draft. --MASEM (t) 20:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Better then what I was going to suggest. I did tweak a bit. He's not Sony CEO, but SCEA CEO. Not sure if that's too pedantic though. Feel free to revert if you think it is. — Strongjam (talk) 20:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
People mention the three usual people time and time again, but nobody acknowledges the threats Christina Hoff Sommers got on twitter. Perhaps finally, someone acknowledges both sides. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any such acknowledgement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
A bit vague, I have no objection to using it, but caution is needed. HalfHat 11:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
What about '"SCEA chief Shawn Layden said he didn't think there is one answer to what Gamergate means, before condemning bullying and harassment in general."', could probably do with a bit of tweaking still — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfhat (talk • contribs) 11:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Currently in the draft article it's Sony Computer Entertainment of America CEO Shawn Layden stated that the harassment surrounding Gamergate was "completely unacceptable", but noted that there isn't "one statement or one position on it, or one answer to whatever this very broadly-defined #GamerGate really means". On review, I think we should probably drop the 'surrounding Gamergate' bit. I think it's implied, but not explicitly said. — Strongjam (talk) 14:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Second source for his comments. This one includes an edited transcript of the interview with Venture Beat. — Strongjam (talk) 14:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Npov?

In my opinion, the article seems slightly biased against the movement. What the movement is about is pretty subjective, and straight up saying it's about sexism doesn't sound neutral.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Weegeerunner (talk • contribs) 21:15, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

At least in Misplaced Pages policy, neutral doesn't mean impartial. There is a very strong dichotomy between how Gamergate supporters tend to see themselves and how the outside world sees them. Our article is based mostly on the latter as derived from reliable sources. --TS 21:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
*cough cough* WP:IMPARTIAL. *cough cough* Tutelary (talk) 23:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Or to expand, there are several facets of neutrality to consider. Weight/balance is one that we clearly have to recognize is never going to be metbetter than we have now, due to the limited number of sources speaking in any sort of nonnegative voice for GG, and that's why its fair to call the GG side FRINGE. But as can be seen under WP:NPOV#Achieving neutrality, there's many others, like structure, impartiality/tone, wording, and sourcing issues, that all have to be considered that we can still improve on to better present the material in a neutral manner. --MASEM (t) 23:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC) (ETA to reflect that we are following policy wrt weight aspects and the sourcing #s) --MASEM (t) 00:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Mmm, Masem preaching to the all divine choir. You're a cool guy, and I appreciate all that you've done and continue to do. If you were the final editor to decide definitely what would happen for the GamerGate ArbCom case, sanctions, topic bans, and just in general what happens, I'd be content and sated. Regarding neutrality, yes I've seen the horrible heated and somehow convoluted discussions of neutrality and acknowledge it. I'm not the person to convince, you know who needs to be convinced in that aspect. The tone and partiality is blatantly shown and asserted and even overt as if it's proud of being there. If trying to fix it didn't result in massive edit warring and vitriol, I'd have fixed it a long time ago. Tutelary (talk) 00:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry but "the world" and so-called "reliable sources" encompasses the media which which is accused lack of ethics and corruption. Plus where are those allegations on Grayson reviewing Depression Quest? --Artman40 (talk) 04:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Nathan Grayson never reviewed Depression Quest. Any allegation that he did so is provably, and proven, false. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
He may not have reviewed Depression Quest, but he has written about it, and used images from it to illustrate the article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/ ¨¨¨¨ — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerDaniel (talk • contribs) 12:51, 18 November 2014‎ (UTC)‎
the allegations were not "but he mentioned it" they were that "he gave positive reviews". and a journalist doesnt pick the images that accompany their copy. now stop your BLP allegations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:10, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, he wrote five words about it in a blogpost, three months before the relationship began. Congratulations, your "smoking gun" is a broken water pistol. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps my understanding of the English language isn't as good as I thought it was! I meant that we don't treat all opinions equally. --TS 23:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC) The perspective of gamergate is largely one-sided, as reliable sources have taken the view that it is primarily about harassment, so our article reflects that. An encyclopedia is not a venue in which to right great wrongs. Tarc (talk) 00:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

If the """" RS"""" supposedly condemns the harassment, I don't see anything about the hate and vitrol, not to mention WP:BLP violations *cough*sommers is a far right MRA XD*cough*cough*Milo is just a parasitic opportunist :^)*cough*. If there was no narrative to push, why are the """"" RS"""" silent about the harassment, on both sides? The fact that almost all that is acknowledged is the harassment towards the 3-5 people everyone are tired of hearing about. Also, CBC, should not under any circumstances be used as an RS, slandering David Pakman as a supposed perpetrator of harassment, despite Pakman being neutral/anti-gg. Fair word of warning about CBC as a source. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Now that I remember, the view that Sommers is an MRA making a cashgrab/holding onto relevance is one our friends over at the fine establishment of Encyclopedia Dramatica push. I would say it safe to consider ED views serious violations of BLP. Article won't be linked for obvious reasons. Bing it or something. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
actually, pretty much every reliable source that discusses Sommers' involvement notes that she is a Chrissy-come-lately to any interest in games. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
While Sommers had no previous experience with games, before her first (very informative and nicely done) video, let's look at it like this. The battleground of feminism has moved into the digital world, and here is something which is a hot topic for feminism. It would be a logical choice for a feminist to tackle a new thing. The only truth, is that sommers didn't say much about gaming before this. However, anything beyond that is speculation/opinion/slander, and therefore unfit for inclusion. The salon article is a hitpiece, simple as that, non-notable, seeing as Milo is back, and clearly slander. Its absurd that criticism of a group makes one against it. I have been very critical of gamergate myself, but that doesn't mean I'm against it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Also nice WP:BLP violation there. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:02, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
What, specifically, is the BLP violation? I see a turn of phrase, not a violation. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It implies she is a rabid opportunist. If one side gets to decide the wording, and images used to describe them, is it too much to ask MINLOVE to allow nonslaneerous description of the other side? --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
its not my implication, its the one supported by 4 reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 07:12, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that word means what you think it means. Seriously, click the link. It's not a BLP violation to call someone a noob. I have no idea who MINLOVE is, but if they are causing a problem, please bring it up to WP:GS/GG. WP:REFACTORing is a serious thing and should only be done in extreme circumstances. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'd say content wise it's a pretty fair representation, the wording is often quite questionable though, and the article in general isn't very well structured. HalfHat 12:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

TV and GAME_JAM

Adam Baldwin, an actor credited with originating Gamergate, made an influential tweet to two videos, the second of which makes claims about Matti Lesham and the apparent failure of GAME_JAM. I was unable to access an article about the jam, but this is the event that Quinn was cited, and her game mentioned, in a piece by someone who (I think) she was accused of subsequently having a relationship with. But I find other writings about it like this editorial, mentioning TV reality show aspects to the production, including the statement that the suggested contract wording "also gave them provisions to make things up about the developers for the sake of drama, which, understandably, did not go over well with the people involved." This editorial seems to agree with something Quinn said (I think) in saying that Lesham, acting as middleman for the TV producers (???), "attempted to get a rise out of Zoe Quinn by asking blatantly sexist questions about her and other women’s involvement in game development."

Now it seems to me that whatever happened that day at GAME_JAM is therefore right dead center at the heart of this 'controversy', apparently kicking off everything that followed, and needs to be explained in a lot more detail than I know about it. What is not so clear to me is whether the entire Gamergate Controversy is a continuation of this reality show, with the same manufactured controversies being continued. Has a 'reality show' in fact become real? Wnt (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Added note: Lesham on IMDB, including 23 news articles from 2010-2014. Wnt (talk) 17:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

When I read through the Game_Jam stuff when it was news before, I don't get the impression that GG is a continuation of it; it was a show produced to be a "reality" show which is designed to provoke the participants so as to get good entertainment value. It is tied to GG for certain in the matter that GG'ers have pointed out that Grayson wrote his own take on the GAME_JAM, including a brief highlight of Quinn's DQ at the time, and while all that was before the reported date of their "closer" relationship (April-ish 2014), GGers claim this is "favorable coverage" that Quinn sought by becoming friends (platonic or otherwise) with Grayson. (This is why we keep having IPs/etc. claim that we can't call the accusations "false" because this one still exists). --MASEM (t) 17:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
If it were "dead center" there would be more reliable sources covering it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:35, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
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