Misplaced Pages

Talk:Greater Romania: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 00:31, 6 December 2014 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,293,067 editsm Archiving 19 discussion(s) to Talk:Greater Romania/Archive 1) (bot← Previous edit Revision as of 08:24, 11 August 2015 edit undo86.127.5.62 (talk) →Misused source from Kessler: new sectionNext edit →
Line 113: Line 113:
End of talks End of talks
] (]) 11:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC) ] (]) 11:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

== Misused source from Kessler ==

I removed the misued quote from Kessler, after the discussion at ], ] (]) 08:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:24, 11 August 2015

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Greater Romania article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 14 days 
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconMilitary history: Balkan / European / World War I / World War II
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion not met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present)
Taskforce icon
European military history task force
Taskforce icon
World War I task force
Taskforce icon
World War II task force
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconRomania High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomaniaWikipedia:WikiProject RomaniaTemplate:WikiProject RomaniaRomania
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMoldova High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Moldova, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Moldova on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MoldovaWikipedia:WikiProject MoldovaTemplate:WikiProject MoldovaMoldova
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconEuropean history
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconInternational relations
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconEastern Europe (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Eastern Europe, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Eastern EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern EuropeTemplate:WikiProject Eastern EuropeEastern Europe
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconEthnic groups
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Greater Romania (political concept) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 22 May 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Greater Romania. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.


Archives
Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.


"Romania Intregita"

The article now says, 'The politically correct Romanian term "Romania Intregita" has its closest meaning in English as "Whole Romania".'

  1. Shouldn't this be "România Intregita"?
    România Întregitā indeed.. it's a plague, romanians are using Western European Encoding Keyboard instead of switching to Central European keyboard, i'm plagued by this too -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  2. A few questions: how common is this usage? I get less than 200 Google hits.
    Romania Mare (greater romania) was hijacked by a political nationalistic party. (Criztu, unsigned)
    • Yes, I added had already added a statement to that effect to the article, but that doesn't answer how common is România Întregită. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
  3. As a native English speaker, "Whole Romania" is certainly something I would never think to say. What is the basis for saying this is "its closest meaning in English"? I would say "Integral Romania" or "Undivided Romania".

-- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

in 1919 Romania was "whole again", not "integral", and now is "incomplete", not "divided" . romanian word "intreg" means 'whole; entire' -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'd misread, even while copying: I'd thought the root was integrală.
Perhaps "The Entirety of Romania" or "The Whole of Romania"? "Whole Romania" just isn't likely English. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

The whole Romania is greater than the 1920-1940 border in the original 'Greater Romania' idea

This idea said, that every land is a Romanian territory, whereever the great rivers (Tisza with the river Bodrog and Dnister) of the Romanian Carpathian Mountains (Eastern and Southern Carpathians) spread out their alluvial deposit. So Greater Romania is the territory between the River Tisza and River Dnister. It consist of the Carpathian Ruthenia and North-Bukovina (nowdays in Ukraine and East-Slovakia - Presov and its vicinity), the Hungarian territory east of the river Tisza, Republic of Moldova (without Transnistria), Lower-Moldavia (nowdays in Ukraine) South-Dobruja (nowdays in Bulgaria), and West-Banat (nowdays in Serbia: East part of the former Province - Vojvodina) and - naturally - Romania.

About my map

Represents historical or just fictional provinces of romanians(Tribalia concept). The yellow border represents the border of Greater Romania, as seen by national movements in XIX century(From Dniester to Tisa);the geographical border . What argument is this" Romanian state never claimed " . This is not about Romanian state is about what Romanians wanted and see as theirs ,(modern Dacia). Not all provinces from the map wore seen as part of Romania, for example Tribalia and Transnistria. And about Pocutia, Romanian Army occupied her, but the king chose to retreat ,Poland wanted to give her to Romania, all the opposition claimed that region, but the goverment fear a war on to many fronts(Hungary Ucraine Russia). So Pocuţia was seen as Romanian, it was a dominion of Moldova in Middle Ages, but for strategic reasons the goverment not accepted the deal with Poland. If you are a strager to romanian national movement stay the hell out of this , don't erase maps. This is about Greater Romania (Political Concept ) ,watch the map of Cezar Bolliac, read national poems ,read right wing press, don't come and play smart if you know 0 about Romanian National Movement. What the hell have the politics of Romanian State with the wish of the nation? You catalogated my map as modern irredentism , no smart ass , that map is about XIX and early XX century, is not my vision of today .Read Romanian poets ,politicians, read memorandums, see maps! Also the Greater Romania was projected to have a new capital(A capital of all Romanians), so if that was not built we should not talk about that project ? Please make arguments when erase material, or you will get a report for abuse ! You have question about what apear on the map , i will respond you. Vasile iuga (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

"Pocuţia was seen as Romanian" - by whom? Plase provide sources for this claim. Avpop (talk) 09:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I was a national movement like any other movements. Any movement of this kind wants a PERFECT BORDER, a natural one. So ispired by Ancient Dacia , romanian movements wanted a border on Tisa and Dniester. And in the north to ,the map should follow natural lines. There are many variations of what the border should be in Maramureş/Marmaţia, many wanted Bodrog river as border http://enjoymoldova.org/wp-content/gallery/map-of-moldova/map-of-modern-dacia-1868.jpg ,others more moderated wanted the border betwen Bereg and Ung as Romania border with smaller variation(some parts of Ung county, east of Laz river to Romania) ,https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Rumânia_văzută_de_Cezar_Bolliac.jpg , http://earth.unibuc.ro/file_download/309 About Pocutia, the border of Bucovina was not natural and fail to link Maramureş Tartar Pass to Moldova in north ,so Pocutia was seen as a necessary, natural, part of Romania, there wore some study witch reveals the moldavian past of Pocuţia Jancu J. Nistor. Die moldauischen Ansprüche auf Pokutien. Vienna 1910 , so on those base all maps of a Proper Romania included Pocutia. Many see Pocutia as a natural province of Romania(modern Dacia)betwen Dniester an the mountains based on this map https://ro.wikipedia.org/Pocuția#mediaviewer/Fișier:Ukraine._Pokutia._Beuaplan_1648.jpg, and seen on this maps of Proper Romania http://earth.unibuc.ro/file_download/309 , http://enjoymoldova.org/wp-content/gallery/map-of-moldova/map-of-modern-dacia-1868.jpg , others just a former historical province of Moldavia witch started from Bystrytsia river and Bystrytsia-Prut highlands ,containing Prut spring. This view was influenced by this map https://ro.wikipedia.org/Pocuția#mediaviewer/Fișier:Moldova_Stefan_cel_Mare.png, and we can see in Bolliac map Prut as the border https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Rumânia_văzută_de_Cezar_Bolliac.jpg. So there wore many opinions of how the Proper Romania should look , but none excluded Pocuţia . Also we should see this as a project for a Greater Romania, not as the claims of the Romanian Kingdom,the kingdom haved a moderate view of the problem ,but that not means that the view represents the view of the national movements.

Pocutia was close to be taken by Romania in 1919, I C Brătianu ,wanted to stop Hungary linking with Russia, the project was sustained by Poland, jew comunity of Pucutia and by some politicians at home. But Romania chose to focus on Banat (to take it all) and chose to give away the fight for other gains. If you want a map of the official claims of Kingdom of Romania, we have that to http://roncea.ro/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Great-Romania-Mare-Harta-de-G-Pop-cu-Basarabia-si-Bucovina.jpg , but that map not represent the Perfect Border concept, it represent the claims of Romania. Vasile iuga (talk) 12:40, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I have started to understand the aim of the map however we do need proper sources for it. Fakirbakir (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Pocutia is not included in Bolliac's map. The map from http://earth.unibuc.ro/file_download/309 is named "Modern Dacia" (not "Greater Romania"), so it is out of topic. In 1919 there was only a strategic military occupation over Pocutia, not a territorial claim. Your allegation about Pocutia remains unsupported.
What about "Transnistria" and "Tribalia-Timoc"? Where are the borders taken from? Avpop (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC) I think i lose my time , Bolliac map has Pocutia inside Bucovina, Prut is the border on that map,not Ceremuş the actual border of Bucovina. About Transnistria ,the people wanted in Greater Romania, and is a land with romanian population and was a claim for Romania latter . I put the form from interbelic period because Antonescu claims are latter, and the borders of USSR province contain the area with Romanians. But clearly is out of the yellow line so Transnistria was not seen as a core region. Tribalia was never a province in that form ,but Romania tried to go south after the Balcan war so it was a propagandistic move to revive the national movement south of Danube, the region was allocated a coat of arms and there wore maps with the Romanian area , so the region contains the so called "romanian" villages. https://cersipamantromanesc.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/tribalia.jpg ,http://www.formula-as.ro/magazine/attachments/829/harta_1217251476-large.jpg https://cersipamantromanesc.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/tribalia.jpg

Your statement is biased, this is a page about romanian nationalism ,Greater Romania is not eqoual with the interbelic kingdom, it was just a propaganda by Brătianu and the following goverments to cover up the fail and humiliation at the Peace conference ,when they lost huge territory promised before the war, they even created the concept of Sătmar part of Maramureş to cover the loss of Romanian hart land of Maramureş. Modern Dacia is the name for Greater Romania, that was the driving force of the national movements. If you don't know that please don't involve in this kind of projects. This is not about claims of a state. Great Hungary is Great Hungary even if the Hungarian Stete don't claim all the lands, it's a perfect border concept like Modern Dacia. So that is the border ,Bolliac map has Prut as border, others Bystrica , all included Pocutia ,it was vital to link Marmureş Tartar Pass with north Moldova. The strategic disaster of 1940 was that they fail to understand that without Pocutia and all Maramureş with Bereg Romania north border is a disaster, Polonia advice us to keep Muncacevo at least and take Pocutia to Stryi, and join the war with Russia and claim Transnistria south of Balta. But Romania refuse, but that don't means that Modern Dacia is not the concept for the Greater Romania. Also i posted a map with the claims ,it show clearly that interbelic Kingdom is much smaller as they wanted, but those claims wore moderate ones. Vasile iuga (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and substantiate your claims with Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. I don't see Pocutia as a part of "Rumania" in Bolliac's map, "Bucovina" is the the northernmost regarded region. Avpop (talk) 12:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I am really bored , you don't see , who are you to decide? You see Prut river as border ? Well that Is Pocutia . You see the other 2 maps , well there you can read Pocutia on them, and the evidence you ask for. Bolliac has a more moderate map ,than the other 2 i posted , but it has Prut as Border not Ceremuş. Verify!. You have 3 maps from XIX century ,that state that in different forms, is not my problem that you cant see Prut river as border on Bolliac map ,is your problem. Transnistria ,Tribalia was never part of Greater Romania aim, Perfect Border Romania, Proper Romania,Geographical Romania, Modern Dacia, name it how you want, but Pocutia was part of that , an important part of that, Ţara de la Cut. Tribalia and Transnistria wore envisages as tools to negociate with Russia ,Bulgaria and Serbia over Basarabia, Cadrilater, Banat. So i am really bored, you really abuse this page, i will create a new page because this is a fiasco, no clear objective as the other pages for other national movements, you confuse Greater Romania(politic concept) with the Kingdom of Romania, you know nothing about Romanian national movements, so is really a waste of time. Is a free world why to waste my time with you? And what is with (")at Rumania, is one of the words for Romania, and Bolliac believe it, and all the people from XIX believe that Proper Romaniais is in that border (De la Nistru pân la Tisa) .You spell Great "German" Reich like this to, ,or you really believe you are smart guy, and you make fun? This is not about claims, border reality or who lived in that area, it's about idealist concepts, is hard to understand? All nations have that, and that not means that the state representig those nations took the policy at state level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vasile iuga (talk • contribs) 13:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Vasile made his point. His map would be quite useful in connection with this matter. We could see "the historically unredeemed claims of Romania". Unfortunately his map has been deleted at Wikimedia Commons. Vasile, use a public domain map like this to avoid copyright violation. Beside Bolliac's map he listed other useful and reliable maps. This map from 1908 actually includes Pocutia . Anyway I am pretty sure that Vasile could find reliable studies for his work not just maps.Fakirbakir (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
User:Fakirbakir how is that 1908 map illustrative for this topic? The only verified fact here is that Pokuttya was once a province of the Principlaity of Moldavia. There is no proof that it became the target of "Romanian pan nationalism". I am looking forward to receiving Vasile Iuga's sources. Avpop (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The majority of Vasile's claims is well sourced. Actually he is right about Romanian claims over Pocutia. The idea of "Romanian Pocutia" existed. "The approach to the setting of the Roumano-Polish borderline should be analysed based on two essential components: the French option and insistence (in 1918-1939) and the will and solution reciprocally settled upon by Bucharest and Warsaw. In this respect, the avoiding of the creation of a "corridor" between Soviet Russia and Central Europe, the concerns of political circles in Bucharest (the Royal House included) and Bukovina, the intervention of the Romanian army in Pocutia in the summer of 1919, the bilateral alliance of 1921 count among the most relevant aspects"Fakirbakir (talk) 12:12, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't see the phrase "Romanian claims" in your quote. It was just a military intervention without any annexation intention. The goal was apparently to obstruct the contact beween the Ukrainian People's Republic, on one side, and Hungarian Soviet Republic and the Slovak Soviet Republic on the other side. According to this Ro-language source the Romanians entered the region after they were requested by the Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to eliminate the Ukraininian bolshevik elements. Avpop (talk) 16:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
I will try to find proper sources. Fakirbakir (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I think Avpop you have issues with your logic, i explained to you, that policy of a state not represent the ideal of a nation. States have issues more complicated to reveal their goals in one stroke.

You not even know the claims of Romania but you talk over and over again, Basarabia was never a Romanian claim, or other areas like north of Ceremuş and Prut river, so Greter Romania will exclude Basarabia? Pocuţia was a goal of the nation, as Basarabia, you have it on all 4 maps(even if you don't know to make difference betwen Prut and Ceremuş on Boliac map). I can present other maps where Pocuţia is , the only argument's wore where Marmaţia(Maramureş) and Pocuţia ends( and there are 2 views). I see the map is erase, that's no problem i can make other in nasa free images, but i will create a new article because, is seems this is taken over by people who know history from TV. Also 90 % of your maps are rong, Maramureş never contain Satu Mare Baia Mare, this was a mistake perpetuated from the lack of know, and still present only in uneducated circles like TV girls or people who made maps for wiki, even they had no book read about History of Maramureş . Also Romania have'd only land(ţinuturi) not regions. Satu-Mare was put ideological in Maramureş because, Bratianu sell claims in Maramureş for Banat, and he fail in Banat to, so people(south ones) wore fooled to believe that is all Maramureş(and they taken all the province), you cannot present a victory with 20% of the most important romanian(not dacian or roman) historical area recovered. :) So to present only the county Maramureş as Maramureş, would have raised important questions from those who fighted and eliberated those areas, and from the people who voted the unifications, so they just say this is Greater Romania, we recovered all , and they introduced Satu Mare on the maps to the now tiny Maramureş. But i not enter in this discutions are to long, and there wore other reasons for Boliac an other to not know the exact border of Maramureş with Crişana. But i expect in 2014 from one who makes maps for wiki to have the decency to read at least 5 books about the main areas of Romania, and not the communist ones, not to make maps form TV weather maps. :) End of talks Vasile iuga (talk) 11:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Misused source from Kessler

I removed the misued quote from Kessler, after the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Misused_quote.3F, 86.127.5.62 (talk) 08:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Categories: