| Revision as of 13:57, 8 December 2014 editBrandenburgG (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,387 editsm →Toda: 1945-1958← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:50, 8 December 2014 edit undoDaveler16 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,304 edits →Another major reversionNext edit → | ||
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| :You evade the issue of your misrepresenting the source you cited, which is the only point that matters here.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 03:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC) | :You evade the issue of your misrepresenting the source you cited, which is the only point that matters here.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 03:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| It is entirely possible I entered a wrong page number or something. Would you mind terribly letting me know exactly what I "misrepresented"? And the issue is nuisance reverting - scholars have come to conclusions you diaagree with, so you are denigrating their work and making changes with no discussion. --] (]) 16:50, 8 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Beliefs and practices again
I added a sentence to the first paragraph to clarify the phrase "personal gain". --Daveler16 (talk) 15:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Added a sub-section on "Faith Practice and Study", I think incorporating stuff from other sections. Also amended the sections on "Life Force" and "Gohonzon". I think a few of the othewr subsections of "Beliefs and Practices" are not necessary, or perhaps belong in other parts of the entry. I think a few of the other subsections can also be improved, but it may be a while before I have the time. --Daveler16 (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi again Daveler. Very too bad that primary sources, such as the writings of Daisaku Ikeda, can not be used to document "variable beliefs": Religion? Philosophy? Attachment? Non-Attachment? Shakyamuni is the Original Eternal Buddha? Nichiren is the Original Eternal Buddha? Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Original Eternal Buddha? DaiGohonzon central? Gohonzon within central? The Lotus Sutra has lost its power in Mappo? The wisdom of the Lotus Sutra? Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism? Soka Gakkai Buddhism? Faith is first and foremost? Just chant and you can believe in anything? Five recitations of the Sutra in the morning and three at night? Two recitations of the Sutra morning and night? Hiki ? Only Nam Daimoku? Nikken Gohonzon good? Nikken Gohonzon bad? Need I go on? 2602:306:CC5C:D7C9:B53D:426F:2A9:B6BF (talk) 07:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC) Mark Rogow 10/27/14
Actually, according to Shi, and to every other religious WP entry I've looked at - yes, you can use primary sources in the matter of what the religion believes. And I believe our concern here is what SG believes; there are (I think)other forums for arguing about the validity of those beliefs, but that's not what we're doing here. --Daveler16 (talk) 16:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
- What Mr. Rogow is suggesting is actually WP:SYNTH though. I think it would indeed be funny to compare passages like "Nichiren is the Original Eternal Buddha? Namu My the late 90s and can't oho renge kyo is the Original Eternal Buddha?", but that belongs on something like RationalWiki, and it's not what Misplaced Pages is for. SG is a large, international organization, and we need to summarize their teachings neutrally. Shii (tock) 02:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
I have added to the Lotus Sutra section, and changed the "Chanting Daimoku" section - added a lot, and got rid of reference to "namu" as no one in SG pronounces it that way. Also, the "chanting for destruction" reference is covered in the Separation from Priesthood section; since SG doesn't actually teach such a thing, it shouldn't be in "Beliefs and Practices". While I understand that at one time an independent author said this, and there are no academic studies that list all the things SG does not believe, I've searched a lot of SG books and periodicals published since the late 90s and can't find an injunction to "chant in groups for the destruction of enemies".
Two more things: I don't think the "Views on Priesthood" subsection is necessary, since there are 11 paragraphs on this subject earleier in the entry. And, I wish to move the "Beluefs and Practices" section to the top of the entry, as we discussed earlier.--Daveler16 (talk) 04:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Re-arranged "Mentor Disciple". Didn't delete or cha ge any wording. --Daveler16 (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Moved B&P up. I think it improves the article from the POV of the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daveler16 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
More Questionable References
In the Mentor and Disciple section, there is no page number for footnote (currently) 80: Yano, Jun'ya (2009). Kuroi techō: Sōka Gakkai "Nihon senryō keikaku" no zenkiroku. Tōkyō: Kōdansha. ISBN 978-4-06-215272-3. Can we get the page number? If not, the reference will be deleted. Thanks.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a neutral source for the statement being made anyway. Shii (tock) 20:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Ok - done.--Daveler16 (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Small thing, but Seagar p. 94 does not say harade is president of the SG - it says he's secretary general. I removed that reference, and left just the other one. Not that his presidency is in dispute, but now the references is accurate.--Daveler16 (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Beliefs and practices first
In principle I'm not opposed to having this section first. But the way it is written now presumes that a lot of information has already been introduced. The first sentence is "Until the 1991 split with the Nichiren Shōshū, Sōka Gakkai existed within the Shōshū framework as a hokkeko, a form of lay organization." None of that has been introduced yet. If we are going to go this way, I think we had better start with a summary of the basic tenets of Nichiren Buddhism and only then introduce what is specific to SG.
In fact, what I would like to suggest is factoring out both the history and B&P sections into separate articles. They both have more than enough material. They are also the sections that contain most of the contentious material. Having them in separate articles would make it easier to get this article into a more or less stable version. – Margin1522 (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
You're right, Margin1522. I had re-written that paragraph once, but someone changed it back. I'll look at it again, unless you want to make the changes? I just moved the section as it was (after a few re-writes of sub sections).--Daveler16 (talk) 16:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- That would be a good idea. As of now the intro doesn't follow at all. If it doesn't work out we can always rewind. In the meantime I think I'm going to try working on the main article on Nichiren Buddhism. It's got misspellings and grammar issues, and really gets into the sectarian weeds. As it stands it's pretty hard to summarize. – Margin1522 (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well. You didn't get a chance to rewrite that paragraph, did you? I must say, you've displayed admirable patience through all this. As for me I'll leave it for another day. Better not to write in anger. – Margin1522 (talk)
Easily fixed. I see that, once again, for the umpteenth time, a major change is made without discussing it.--Daveler16 (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I should mention again why B&P should lead off the article. As is known (maybe it's a sensitive subject on WP talk pages?) most professors and teachers do not allow their students to cite Misplaced Pages in research. And I can't imagine anyone but an academic being interested, first and foremost, in the SG history, ancient criticisms and esoteric disputes, anecdotes from 1951, etc. Yes, eventually, perhaps, a reader would want to know all this and that's why they have to be included; but it makes sense that the vast majority of people to use Misplaced Pages to learn about the SG are doing so because they are interested in its beliefs, or a child or spouse has started practicing (I believe there's an editor who came here precisely because of that?)and they want to know what it is they're practicing. Why not make it easier for most of the people who are reading? If there has been research into readership, and I'm wring, then I apologize, and okay, bury B&P. But please, let's discuss it first.--Daveler16 (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
- We already had a discussion about this and I believe Ubikwit is in the minority. There is no clear format among religion articles, for example, Bahá'í Faith and Christian Science have beliefs sections first, while Scientology has it otherwise. In the SG article there is a good argument that SG beliefs are unfamiliar enough that they can be explained first and may help provide context for the History section. Shii (tock) 19:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a certain way to proceed with those issues. Less is more, but at this point the article is pathetic amongst Nichiren Buddhist related issues.--Catflap08 (talk) 21:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
- Shii I think you have it backwards. The history of the organization informs its beliefs and practices.
- More than 90% of its B&P are derivative on another religious group, one to with which it was originally associated. It was not founded as a unique NRM based on a newly defined doctrine, like Tenrikyo, for example, or the NRMs you mention.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 02:41, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- First, NS is by no means a familiar group for English speakers. Second, having read bits and pieces of Human Revolution, I am of the opinion that SG has a lot of social practices -- notably its conception of the master-disciple relationship, and its idealized image of society -- that have no relationship with NS. It asks members to do many things that NS hokkeko do not do. I have no idea what to make of its so-called "peace activism" that seems more like performance art, and I am glad that section is now separate from B&P. Shii (tock) 02:53, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but I would maintain that the SG social practices to which you refer grew out of the historical relationship to NS, or more specifically NSS, which was somewhat on the fringe of NS. The disciple-master relationship itself is pretty much a Buddhism-wide phenomenon, though, as far as I know. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 04:18, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but in other sects it is only between abbots and monks. SG believes this can apply even between lay members and their... honorary president for life. Shii (tock) 16:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but I would maintain that the SG social practices to which you refer grew out of the historical relationship to NS, or more specifically NSS, which was somewhat on the fringe of NS. The disciple-master relationship itself is pretty much a Buddhism-wide phenomenon, though, as far as I know. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 04:18, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- First, NS is by no means a familiar group for English speakers. Second, having read bits and pieces of Human Revolution, I am of the opinion that SG has a lot of social practices -- notably its conception of the master-disciple relationship, and its idealized image of society -- that have no relationship with NS. It asks members to do many things that NS hokkeko do not do. I have no idea what to make of its so-called "peace activism" that seems more like performance art, and I am glad that section is now separate from B&P. Shii (tock) 02:53, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
As Margin1522 pointed out, the first paragraph of the section needs to be re-written so that it makes more sense at the top. I hope to have something to submit on that in a day or two.--Daveler16 (talk) 00:21, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Shii: This is utter misinformation. The relationship between master and disciple is in all Buddhist traditions foremost a personal relationship between two individuals. Teacher and student. Just like in academia the teacher has gained certain credentials – if the student decides that the credentials does not match his/her curriculum the student leaves – if the teacher decides the student is not worth teaching he/she will not waste each others time. The same goes for Buddhism (except SGI), teacher(master) and student(disciple) have to accept each other. It’s a personal relationship. Not limited to monks. Same goes for the concept of a “guru”. It’s only been due to cult movements that this concept has been misused. In this context, as a cult, SGI follows cult traditions. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:44, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- Butting in here, but as someone who doesn't know the topic of SG and related that well, I can see a somewhat reasonable question about whether there really can be a "personal relationship" between and teacher and student who may never have met personally and may perhaps reasonably never be expected to have any significant person-to-person interaction. John Carter (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- John: Well just as I said, and thanks for butting in, the way the concept is interpreted in SGI is unique to SGI. I see no harms in pointing that out, but labelling it Buddhist (or whatever) is farfetched. Even the writings by Nichiren are most of all a correspondence between individuals – and if some do not like the fact – Nichiren was an ordained Tendai priest. There is nothing wrong that SGI defines this concept differently. Not even a need to mention that there is no need for monks, priests, ordained or inidividulas versed in Buddhist Studies in SGI – but it’s surely not a traditional teacher (mentor, master) student (disciple) relationship as has been practiced in Buddhism or whatever is on the market on traditional Asian philosophies. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The idea that people cannot be disciples of someone they never met is not proven by history. That people come to know their mentor through writings and teachings is hardly new. Shakyamuni, Nichiren, Jesus and others are have been mentors to millions. The concept is not like the guilds of ancient Europe where apprentices worked side by side with masters. Nichiren wrote: "The Lotus Sutra is a manifestation in writing of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni's intent. Shakyamuni Buddha and the written words of the Lotus Sutra are two different things, but their heart is one. Therefore, when you cast your eyes upon the words of the Lotus Sutra, you should consider that you are beholding the living body of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni." (WND-1, 333)Ltdan43 (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think most Christians describe Jesus as a "mentor". Anyway I was trying to point out that SGI's idea of "mentor" is unique and unrelated to other Buddhist sects. Shii (tock) 22:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
- Bloody few Christians would describe Jesus as a mentor. Most would call him God, a god, or some sort of maybe semi-divine first creation. However, there are a number of syncretistic NRMs which include Jesus as some sort of mentor or source of advice.
- Getting back to the original post, about maybe spinout articles on the History and Beliefs and Practices (or maybe Theology) of SG, or perhaps spinout article(s) on SG in various individual countries or continents, when there are sufficient sources to establish both notability and enough content to merit a separate article, those can always be good ideas. Has anyone checked to see if there are sufficient independent sources to establish notability of such spinout articles? John Carter (talk) 23:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it is a matter of semantics. Whether Jesus is considered the son of God, a prophet or teacher, people follow his teachings as a guide on how to live. But forget Jesus. For centuries, people read Shakyamuni's writings and adopted him as their teacher—mentor.Ltdan43 (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty gross interpretation of Buddhist hermeneutics. Have you ever talked to a Theravada monk? Especially in Southeast Asia, I think it would be very difficult to find someone who thinks of Buddha as his "mentor". SG's teaching here is unique even among Buddhist groups. Shii (tock) 19:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to interpret other schools, just in my opinion, if you call someone your teacher and use their teachings to guide you through life, it seems to me that is the same as having a mentor. Like I said, it could just be a matter of semantics. I think this quote describes the SGI concept well: “The oneness of the mentor-disciple relationship is described not in terms of demands and duties as many critics imagine it to be, but in terms of choice, freedom and responsibility. It is the disciple’s choice and decision to follow the mentor’s vision for their common goal. In response, it is the mentor’s wish to raise and foster the disciple to become greater than the mentor.” (Richard Seager, Encountering the Dharma, p. 63)Ltdan43 (talk) 21:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, the SG believes what it believes. As stated earlier, there are forums for debate about whether what the SG believes is or is not orthodox, but I don't think an encyclopedia is one of those forums. I think the sub-section does a pretty good job of explaining the SG's vision of the concept. Perhaps there should be an entire separate entry about "mentor and disciples in traditional Buddhism"? Meanwhile: I had previously asked, here, for a page number to be provided for the Yano reference. None was provided,and the only comment was from Shi stating that the source is not a neutral one anyway. So I removed it. It was returned, nut still with no page number and, presumably, with no revisions to enhance it's neutrality (trusting Shi's characterization - I don't read Japanese, and no translation was provided either). So I removed it again, and replaced it with another source that is arguably more reliable (Jane Hurst).--Daveler16 (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- I have rewritten this to include both sides and provide some context. On the one hand, Yano was secretary-general of the Komeito for over a decade, so if anyone should know about the inner workings of the SG and the Komeito, it's him. On the other hand, he's a politician, not a student of Buddhism. I added some more context to the McLaughlin quote to clarify what it means. And restored Daveler16's reference, which seems perfectly fine. – Margin1522 (talk) 12:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Margin1522: The way it is now written seems perfectly fine and fair to me - with a qualification: I was unaware of Yaino's history, and now that you've explained it, it seems to me that using him as a reference would be roughly equivalent to using Ikeda as a reference to explain something in the Nichiren Shoshu entry. Should disgruntled former members (and officers!) be used in a section on the sect's doctrine? Or might he be more appropriately used in a section on history, or political activities? Anyway,, until there is some consensus that this section is about what SG believes and practices, and not what others think it should believe and practice, I appreciate that your re-write is probably as fair as we can get. I do see that my change - which I discussed here - was once again reverted with no discussion whatsoever, which is too bad. Thank you for your efforts (and intercession). --Daveler16 (talk) 22:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I see that the misquoted reference from Prebish and Tanaka had been restored to the first paragraph. I have fixed it again. Frst, the book it cites is a compilation of various authors, and the chapter on the SG was written by Jane Hurst - not by Prebish and Tanaka, as the footnote had stated (they are the editors). Second, the footnote cited a page that has nothing to do with the SG/NS split. Finally, it does not say, or imply, that doctrinal differences were not the main issue - it just lists issues, without assigning levels of importance to them. I have changed the FN to reflect Hurst's authorship, corrected the page number, and included the actual quote referred to. I don't think this is a particularly big deal (though somebody does if they went to the trouble of reverting from accuracy), but I removed the qualifying phrase that Hurst never included.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Returning to the first topic in this Talk sub section: I have inserted a paragraph that does not assume prior knowledge, or familiarity with the rest of the SG entry. I notice that it does make some sentences of the subsequent op-ening paragraphs redundant, s so I'll fix those.--Daveler16 (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
...And I did: I removed most of the SG changes to NS, so it doesn't seem so self-serving. That makes it much shorter and more readable too, I think.--Daveler16 (talk) 23:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Hello Ms. Margin. Being a politician precludes one from being a student of Buddhism? "No affairs of life or work are ever contrary to the true reality", if i recall correctly. Also, think Prince Shotoku and Emperor Kammu.108.197.205.124 (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2014 (UTC) 11/23/14
"In fact"
I removed the wirds "in fact" from the assertion "In fact, his main motivation was religious, not political" in the Makiguchi sub section on Repression During the War. It's really too complicated an issue to say "in fact" about someone's motivation. True, M. objected to religious consolidation; but, as a number of sources indicate, the reason for the religious consolidation was to support the wat effort (I added one reference about that) (BTW, I had to edit it twice because of an date error in a footnote)--Daveler16 (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your conclusions are wishful thinking. SG came under oppression on religious grounds not political ones. SG did not support State Shinto which is not necessarily the same as Shinto. In fact the idea of Shinto is in a religious context relatively new. Any attempts to portray SG as an opposition to Japanese Fascism are factually incorrect. Neither Makiguchi nor Toda to any great extent distanced themselves from war atrocities committed by the Japanese. Changes in that policy did indeed started in Ikeda’s reign as the information age did start before the internet – so no use in denying the obvious. Surely anyone would be pewed if an A-bomb is dropped on one’s own country on the other hand SG is not on the forefront to speak up against human rights violations and war atrocities taking place NOW – a fact that also should be mentioned. As a matters of fact SG never ever took a stand on human rights violations taking place in China or Russia today – never ever. In that respect the Catholic Church under Bendict is far more outspoken that SGI ever was. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Not disputing that that's an allegation, and I'm not removing that allegation. I just removed the phrase "in fact". as there are other opinions and other documentation. --Daveler16 (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Order of subsections
At one point I remember a discussion about the order of the subsections. It was centered on whether "History" or "Beliefs & Practices." If I recall properly it was started by Margin1522 under the title "Belief and Practices First." I don't think the issue was ever settled besides some attempted edits and reverts.
Can we all ring in with opinions? Looking at the articles about other religions, there does not seem to be a clear consensus. Catholicism and Judaism hold off on history until later in their respective articles. Calvinism, on the other hand, starts with history.
IMHO, I think B&P at the top will suit our readers the most. I believe they want to know what this organization stands for, what makes it similar/unique, what its members actually "do." History is certainly important but to most readers what occurred in the 30's, 40's, 50's and even 60's and 70's was before their birth.
That's my two cents. BrandenburgG (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Catholicism and Judaism both see themselves as being the "original" form of their belief system, and their beliefs are in lots of ways not so clearly based on previous similar beliefs, like is the case with Calvinism. It would make sense for Calvinism to discuss the history, and the inherited ideas and points of differentiation, first in a history section which details why they broke away from the earlier group. I guess the decision for this article would be based on to what extent the beliefs of SGI are more or less inherited from a previous group and to what extent they are original. If most of their belief system is "inherited," then I myself would start with a "History" section indicating the reasons and time of the breakaway from the earlier group. If most of it is in some way "original," then starting with beliefs might make more sense. John Carter (talk) 21:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, John Carter. I agree with your approach. I think it is very original. I've been writing my take on the B&P in my Sandbox 9https://en.wikipedia.org/User:BrandenburgG/sandbox). I used the term "revivalist" because its original form revived the founder's (Nichiren) teaching and spirit which had been lost for many centuries.BrandenburgG (talk) 12:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that Makiguchi's motivation for linking with NS was that it enhanced his theory of value creation. If he had linked with another sect, would the result have been the same? Probably: the SG, it seems to me, has the chanting, the Gohonzon and the sutra recitation in common with other Nichiren sects, but it certainly could have gotten those from any of them - or none, really. It's reasons for practicing, its goals, its motivation based on value and life force are quite distinct, and were not all derived, from other sects. Look at txhe history - one conflict with the priests after another. Nothing in "History" is essential to explaining or understanding what the SG believes and practices; so, I think, Beliefs and Practices ought to lead off. --Daveler16 (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Mr. Brandenburg...Wishful thinking and oh so subjective...More appropriately, altered the founder's teaching to mold Nichiren in Ikeda's image. 108.197.205.124 (talk) 05:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC) Mark Rogow 11/23/2014
- "I think it's pretty clear that Makiguchi's motivation for linking with NS was that it enhanced his theory of value creation." This had less to do with his theories – he did try to get involved with Nichiren Shu too but was refused. This in some respect again boils down to the concept of master and disciple – a master can and quite often will refuse a disciple … same goes the other way round. Makiguchi’s involvement with Nichiren Buddhism started with attending lectures of nationalistic Nichirenists, a fact that some might not like. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think there is anything here for some to like or not like. Miyata describes Makiguchi's "religious wandering" as a youth here http://hw001.spaaqs.ne.jp/miya33x/paper10-1.html. Yes, as part of his wandering Makiguchi attended lectures by Chigaku Tanaka. Of course, if it's "one strike, you're out," then Makiguchi should be discounted for attending the lectures. From another perspective his attendance shows a broad search for meaning.BrandenburgG (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The question (posed by John Carter, whom I paraphrase) is is the SG theology evolved independent of NS, the answer to which might determine the placement of Beliefs and Practices. Your argument, I think, strengthens the notion that it is independent, that it wasn't NS so mucvh but Nichiren that attracted Makiguchi in the first place. Is thyat what you're saying? --Daveler16 (talk) 15:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your "paraphrasing" of John Carter's "question" is a false construction the way I see it, and your question to Catflap is equally mind boggling. Catflap appears to be contrasting NS (Nichiren-shoshu) to Nichiren-shu, incidentally. The "notion" that there was anything "independent" would appear to be by-and-large imaginary.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 19:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
No, the question really is: "Is the SG belief something developed independently of NS?" The answer is "Yes", and Catflap's observation supports that - Makiguchi was shopping for a sect to support his thinking. I changed another part of the opening, using the material Brandenburg shared in his Sandbox; this makes it even clearer, I think.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit, I'm afraid I don't understand your comment "The "notion" that there was anything "independent" would appear to be by-and-large imaginary." Which citation of Davelef16 do you disagree with? Which citation are you holding up to dispute his edits?≈≈≈≈
I think the problem is that anything critical of the SG, or that keeps it as some sort of subset of Nichiren Shoshu, is "neutral" and "objective; while anything that is positive, or that happens to coincide with the SG's own view of itself, is "self promoting" or otherwise biased. I would argue that this is wrong, but it seems to be the rule under which some of us are operating. I hope I'm wrng about that.Anyway, I changed iit back. --Daveler16 (talk) 00:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Toda: 1945-1958
I would like to ask help in revising this section of the SG article. At the present time it is superficial and biased. There is nothing here about Toda's contribution to the SG's perspectives about Buddhism. Only one narrative is presented, one that rests on bullying as the primary reason for the SG's growth. The alternative narrative is that Toda was deeply awakened in prison to a mission to propagate the SG movement and that he had a profound and lasting relationship to his mentor. Both of these resulted in acumen, organizational genius, and an ability to touch the lives of people--thus resulting in the SG's growth.
Both narratives need to be explored in this article. Balanced vocabulary should be selected as well. "Aggressive proselytizing" is certainly mentioned in sources. But so, too, is "intensive shakubuku drive" (Murata, 101) or "massive proselytization" (Queen).
The present section hops from "aggressive prosyletyzing" to "Raccoon Dog" to speeches on a white horse, to scandalous funeral. This is not a fair portrayal of a man whom, many might say, played a pivotal role in history.
I hope that other editors can join me in this work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 18:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I added some information about T's contributions between his release from prison (1945) and his inauguration (1951).
- BrandenburgG (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I made revisions to the Toda subsection. I organized the section into several subsections, I don't believe that anyone will have a problem with this. I introduced more material and citations into the shakubuku subsection and the relationship with NS subsection. I believe both of these subsections are more balanced now.
I have to raise a flag about the work of an earlier editor in the "death and legacy" subsection. By stating that there was a leadership vacuum for two years this editor seriously misused the Murata citation he/she cites. First of all the editor does not cite any page. Secondly, the page which discusses the matter (118) states exactly the opposite. According to this page, by the second month following Toda's death, Ikeda was appointed general director "which put him virtually in charge of the entire organization." I plan on addressing this issue later this week. BrandenburgG (talk) 13:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Another major reversion
Ubikwit, you have been requested repeatedly to discuss it on the Talk page before doing a large-scale revert of the work of other editors. I haven't been following this that closely, but from reading it Daveler16's contribution was a coherent argument that must have taken hours or days to put together. You can't just revert it with a bald assertion in the edit summary. That is disruptive. The book was published by Oxford University Press. If you want, you're free to make your case here that it has a "pro-SG bias". But you have to make the case. You can't just assert it. – Margin1522 (talk) 23:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Margin1522 You and the other pro-SG editors have repeatedly been cautioned about misrepresenting sources and posting promotional content. All of these incidents can and will be used in any future ArbCom case related to this article.
- Daveler has now blatantly misrepresented the Global Citizens source (p.32), a book which already has a highly pro-SG bias, and simply ignores the history of Makiguchi and his writings.
- I'm not here to waste my time arguing with pro-SG advocates. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 18:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit:, I've been trying to get you into a discussion
of the problems that you have with other editors' contributions. Misplaced Pages:Consensus is the way it's supposed to work. That means that sometimes we have to compromise and make the effort to persuade other editors. I really don't know what to say if you think this is a waste of your time. – Margin1522 (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
This is silly. Ubikwit, let me get this straight: if a source is extremely critical of the SG, it's neutral and objective; if a source happens to support what the SG says about itself, it's self- serving. Is that your view? Noah Brannen and Brian Victoria are in no way negative - they just have a clear, objective view that Jane Hurst and Daniel Metraux lack. Is that correct? And btw I agree with Margin1522: this page is not your personal property. --Daveler16 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- You evade the issue of your misrepresenting the source you cited, which is the only point that matters here.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 03:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
It is entirely possible I entered a wrong page number or something. Would you mind terribly letting me know exactly what I "misrepresented"? And the issue is nuisance reverting - scholars have come to conclusions you diaagree with, so you are denigrating their work and making changes with no discussion. --Daveler16 (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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