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Aren't there any sources defending Pascal???

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I know our articles have to follow the sources, but good God am I disappointed with the news media this time. They are painting this woman as a racist because she suggested that a black VIP might appreciate films with some black actors. Despite the fact that anybody with cable can go in and see a channel listing with things like "Starz in Black" on it, dedicated to the idea of serving black films to a black audience! How can cable providers have a full-on segregated video feed as their routine practice all over the U.S., yet when one woman suggests doing that same thing in a single instance in an email we should never have seen anyway, that's supposed to be a scandal?

Anyway, count this as a request for some sensibility here. And if you see a sane source somewhere, for the love of God add it! Wnt (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• Done. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:D161:D53:C855:F657 (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The "defence" sounds sycophantic and raises POV issues IMO. Doesn't it? What do other editors think? It is hard (impossible?) to "defend" racist remarks in our day and age thankfully.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Meh. Similar, inverted arguments could be used to say that Sharpton's comments are POV, reactionary, not of any particularly special provenance or merit, and/or that he's overreacting intentionally in order to simply gain space in the media. It's a big world out there as regards commentaries.

Substance matters; Pascal was clearly joking (inappropriately, but privately...as people are wont to do)...not calling for a KKK meeting on the subject. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:3D77:629D:9935:2A11 (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I think in BLP controversies it's always important to go back to the original primary source. In this case the closest I found quickly was , which is referred (via a Buzzfeed intermediate link) from the Washington Post. What she said was “What should I ask the president at this stupid Jeffrey breakfast?” ... “I doubt it. Should I ask him if he liked DJANGO?” ... “Or the butler. Or think like a man? ” That's it. Her entire end of the 'controversial' conversation! Now how can it be that cable channels are segregated with the notion that black people want to watch black movies, yet it is verboten for a woman in private to suggest that Obama might like one of three well-known movies that happen to have largely black casts???

Of course, I can't -- alas -- spout off my 'original research' reaction in the article. But whatever we can do to be fair, we should. Wnt (talk) 23:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't know her, so I don't know if she was joking or not, but I know she sounds very unprofessional in those business/work e-mails. Suggesting the president will enjoy films about slavery and being a butler just because his father was African is not very funny to me. In any case, I don't see why the section subhead was changed from "racial remarks" to "Guardian of Peace hack." The section, is, well, about the "racial" (or unprofessional if you want) remarks she made. I think calling it something else makes her sound less "racially insensitive" than she is--or that she clearly was in those supposed "jokes." I don't think Al Sharpton's comments are an overreacction--he is calling for more civil rights for the people she has offended; the Hollywood Reporter journalist however is saying she wouldn't hurt a fly...which is very vague and a little off topic. If the HR reporter journalist was making a real point, showing that she donated African American schools for example, then it should be included. But his remarks are so vague that I don't think they should be. But again, what do other editors (who have not responded yet) think? I think we should be able to reach a more balanced, collaborative decision.Zigzig20s (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

To be frank, I don't sense an honest dialogue on your part here, Zigzig. Your arguments and inability to see Pascal's humor strike me as specious posturing, not honest talk. Regardless, but not taking the bait, here is a Cliff Notes version from many posts: President Obama, in concert with his Attorney General, are widely viewed by many people as being "racist" (example) -- whatever that nondescript term means on the part of the beholder. This being the case, note that the first movie Pascal refers to is "Django" -- in which severe violence is brought upon the white slaveholders by revenge-seeking blacks. The inside joke being: given his prejudicial stance on any number of relevant news topics (Trayvon Martin, New Black Panther voter intimidation, Henry Louis Gates, Jeremiah Wright (Obama's 20-yr pastor, who officiated at his wedding), Michael Brown...et al) this sort of cinematic retaliation on whites would seem to be what might please Obama in a night at the flicks (all said in a flash by Pascal in a half-joking fashion). --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:CCE6:210C:E6DD:F5DA (talk) 03:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. You might want to ask yourself, how do Pascal's brief & arguably vague comments compare to this: "While hosting NBC's Saturday Night Live, Jamie Foxx joked about being excited "to kill all the white people in the movie" reference. Is that a real knee-slapper, or what? --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:CCE6:210C:E6DD:F5DA (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

To other editors: that editor only created a username today to edit only this page. This makes it hard to take their comments seriously. I will wait until another editor gets back to me with suggestions. For example, User:Wnt, why did you remove "racial remarks"? Until you respond, I have added it back, as it correlates with the lead/introduction section.Zigzig20s (talk) 04:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, I intended to retitle the section in the preceding edit, but had an edit conflict and copy-pasted my previous text during which I missed the old header. Now as for intent, it is clear that the looting of the company by North Korean hackers is the broader topic - under that there are at least three Amy Pascal related bits of news: the comments, her reported status as the only woman in the 17 top wage earners there, and the story about how she fired a PR guy because he didn't get her into an important meeting. You could subsection the "racial" bit under that, but it seems excessively fine-grained to do so. Wnt (talk) 12:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Why is it significant that she fired a PR guy?Zigzig20s (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, I think the primary source is vital for trying to keep the spin from carrying this away. The version I found just now gave Pascal credit for suggesting "12 Years a Slave" even though that wasn't even her suggestion! When you have what amounts to no more than one of my typical sentences' worth of text, why not quote it so that people can see how small and trivial a thing this really is? I think the way she is being treated in the press is cyberbullying, pure and simple, like some industrial strength Gamergate, and all over nothing.

Honestly, I don't know why it's significant she fired the PR guy, but it was in the source; it's one of the things leaked about her; if the data is true (which with hackers we ought not to be so sure about!) it did show that her husband had a role in a decision that cost a guy a $500,000 a year job, and ... it seems more important to me than the email exchange about movies Obama might like. Wnt (talk) 13:02, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion is irrelevant. You have just demonstrated that you are biased and would like to portray Pascal in a better light on Misplaced Pages than the independent sources do. I think we should remain neutral, as I am. It is Misplaced Pages policy to use third-party sources, not primary sources, whenever possible. She acknowledged the e-mails, so their veracity cannot be questioned. The PR incident sounds like a non-story and a distraction away from her racial remarks. The section should not be about the hackers, but about her racial remarks. We should stick to what is relevant to this person. I think her generous paycheck could be moved to her "career" section, while the "racial remarks" section just focus on just that. Being a woman does not mean her racial remarks are somehow no longer racially insensitive or "racist," as some have suggested...Zigzig20s (talk) 13:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't conceal my bias, but I believe we all have biases on any issue - and indeed, we have a bias, and our actions are affected by it, even before we know what that bias is. To say "I am neutral" is bravado, no matter who says it or where they say it.

I continue to believe that the primary source is the one fixed anchor point in a sea of rhetoric.

I should add that 2601: ... ... ... is not an account created today; that's an IPv6 address. Wnt (talk) 13:44, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I think we should always remain neutral when editing/improving Misplaced Pages. I will add more referenced info if other people condone her racial remarks publically and that is reported in the press. I will also try to find more info about her career--clearly she has achieved a lot in spite of those unprofessional work e-mails--her page could probably reach B status fairly easily.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Wnt for pointing out to Zigzag what have should have been obvious: I'm editing from an IP address -- which is perfectly acceptable, or otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it. Am reverting Zigzig's edits until he/she has worked more successfully in forming a consensus. At the moment, Zigzag is a minority of 1. --162.206.169.121 (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem is neither of you are neutral. Both of you apparently want to make Pascal sound better on Misplaced Pages than third party sources do. That's not encyclopedic. Besides, I have reverted your edits because you removed some important referenced information I added, about Lisa Kudrow's reaction, and about newspapers calling Pascal's remarks not just "racial," but "racist." Please don't revert or remove this referenced info again until more editors, who are neutral, respond. I don't want to revert your reversion again, so we should wait until others tell us what they think. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Your edits are non-consensus, Zigzig...and you know that. Please stop edit warring and put your energies into forming a consensus on the talk page. As is, you are insisting on labeling Pascal's comments as "racist," and this violates WP:BLP. Quoting clearly biased 'sources' is also not helping your case, which is clearly in the minority. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:5D4E:ABF7:402D:EC4E (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

A "consensus" of TWO users who admit to being biased and want to make Pascal sound better on Misplaced Pages than the third-party sources suggest, is not a good consensus at all. It's ridiculous. I really hope more editors comment on this thread. As I said, I won't revert your reversion again, so I cannot be accused of "edit-warring." And no, I have NOT called her anything at all. I have added referenced info that show that widely read newspapers have called her remarks "racist." I personally have not called her anything at all because I am a neutral editor. Also note that I reverted an edit that renamed the subhead from "racial" to "racist," back to "racial." Here are two questions: 1)Why did you remove the referenced info about Lisa Kudrow's reaction? Why did you remove referenced info about newspapers calling her comments "racist? Removing relevant referenced info to suit your "bias" is not what Misplaced Pages is about.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I believe we all have biases whether we know it or not. I don't intend to let bias drive my contributions or overwhelm the truth, and I feel my edits were evidence of that. I allowed your "racist" to stand, since you had references for it, no matter how awful I think it is to say that. But, I think that if we're going to have a paragraph about a few words by the subject, we might as well let people see what those words were, how much and how little, because it is a fixed anchor point which no amount of spin can make any better or worse than it is. And I don't think that we need to center our section headings around the most obnoxious aspect of the claim; I think we can write about the leak as the lead and organize things under that. There's all this stuff in WP:BLP about being "sensitive" and writing "responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone"; usually I'm not a great fan of it but... these news articles are unbelievable. It's like they are written by moon men, so far divorced do they seem from the day to day reality of life. Wnt (talk) 20:49, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

At the end of the day, what needs to be done here is "the right thing." My observation is that contributor Wnt has absolutely done the right (and encyclopedic) thing by quoting Pascal's extremely brief remarks in full. This allows the reader to interpret this action on Pascal's part for themselves, without unprofessional/unqualified labeling on the part of anyone else as them being "racist," which is fundamentally non-quantifiable. While remaining highly pejorative (again, see WP:BLP), the term "racist" itself lacks for a clear definition.

Running counter to Wnt's approach, Kudrow's off-hand labelling of Pascal's extremely brief remarks as "racist" is not encyclopedic; rather, it falls in the category of gossip...which would only continue a pattern of WP:BLP violation. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:5D4E:ABF7:402D:EC4E (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Let us be very clear here: I have NEVER called her "racist." Actually, no one has. However, many widely read newspapers have called her remarks "racist." That is a fact. It is unfair to censor this from this Misplaced Pages article. It's just not an honest approach. Whether User:Wnt likes the media interpretations of her behaviour or not is irrelevant. As editors, we must not engage in "original research," which is what Wnt apparently would like to do, by reinterpreting her behaviour. We must let third-party sources speak for themselves. And you don't see dialogues in encyclopedias; it's just not part of their stylistic mode (take a look at Britannica). We are not here to change people's minds about Pascal, which seems to be what you want to do. Now, why would Lisa Kudrow's reaction be "gossip" and not Aaron Sorkin's? That would be very curious.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you have time and again tried to label Pascal's remarks as racist. The fact that you are using the media to fling this pejorative doesn't change that fact any more than the fact that the media has no implicit authorization for applying this WP:BLP-violating content on Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, I don't see Aaron Sorkin calling anyone a racist. I think we're done pointing out the obvious here and should await the input of others, but as it stands your minority opinion stands starkly for what it is. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:5D4E:ABF7:402D:EC4E (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Wrong; I have called them "racial" and even reverted an edit from a user trying to rename the subhead "racist," back to "racial." On Misplaced Pages, we use in-line references, which often come from media sources. We are not supposed to reinterpret third-party sources, as that then becomes original research. You are welcome to go and publish an op ed somewhere, but not here. Did you censor Lisa Kudrow's reaction because she criticized Pascal instead of being sycophantic? Btw, I don't have an opinion. I am only trying to channel what the vast majority of third-party sources are saying. Which you are removing/censoring.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I let stand "racist" in this revision per the headlines citing it. Wnt (talk) 22:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

But now it's been removed/censored, even though it was fully referenced! Why was it removed? Why should it not be added back?Zigzig20s (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

If you refuse to listen, Zigzig, it's going to be difficult to have a conversation. Any number of 'news' media outlets may feel that they are at liberty to label an extremely short, arguably merely 'racially-tinged' text/email dialogue as "racist," but here on Misplaced Pages such unfounded name-calling is a violation of WP:BLP. Misplaced Pages does not rubber stamp pejorative labels for living persons merely because someone in the so-called 'media' has chosen to cast aspersions. It's really that simple, but to enhance your understanding: should Ms. Pascal choose one day to file a libel case against Misplaced Pages...and win a large dollar award...would you be willing to cut the check on Misplaced Pages's behalf? Of course not...even if you were perhaps the one person that could be most causative in that very possible sequence of events. That lack of responsibility is precisely why WP:BLP exists. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:71C8:155E:BDD4:C3F1 (talk) 02:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe she could sue, as long as there are clear in-line references and that that qualifier is under inverted commas, as it was. She is welcome to sue the newspapers that used that term if she wants, but that's not our problem. (There are MANY newspapers btw. Google it. I don't think so many newspapers would print that word if they thought she could sue.) Besides, for the third time, I have reverted an edit which named the subsection "racist remarks" back to "racial remarks" (which you then changed again to a very vague title), just to make it sound more neutral. Lastly, I have not reinserted the qualifier in the article, even though I don't believe it should have been removed, as it was clearly referenced. (Also note that that same word is used five times--including twice in the lead--in Donald Sterling's article (perhaps unfairly so); Sterling is a lawyer, which makes it worse, but nobody seems to have been concerned about it.) You also did not explain why you believe Lisa Kudrow's reaction would be "gossip" in your opinion but not Aaron Sorkin's. How about I suggest Aaron Sorkin's words are "gossip"? The section must be fair and balanced, showing both sides of the argument. I really hope other editors will respond now.Zigzig20s (talk) 02:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That didn't take long: Mr/Ms Zigzig...meet Mr. David Boies by way of his demand letter to the media on behalf of his client, Sony Pictures Entertainment. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:299E:8C8:CBF0:D4F2 (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

As Zigzig went against the current consensus by way of posting a (inappropriate) "Facts in dispute" tag, I'm reaching out to the Misplaced Pages community for comments by listing an RFC tag on this talk page. Cheers to all, and thanks in advance for weighing in regardless of how this plays out. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:7DFF:CA8D:82F2:435E (talk) 01:50, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Continuing the conversation - a prediction: if people insist on trying to throw the 'racist' word in this article, you will eventually wake one day to find that the entire article has disappeared. Mark my words. Her lawyers will simply write to Misplaced Pages, or call, and that will be the end of it. --2602:30A:2CEA:9790:D173:26BB:5D49:BAC9 (talk) 12:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

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