| Revision as of 15:01, 22 December 2014 editJimjilin (talk | contribs)1,919 edits →Criticism section?← Previous edit | Revision as of 15:03, 22 December 2014 edit undoJimjilin (talk | contribs)1,919 edits →Criticism section?Next edit → | ||
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| Here's Thomas Piketty on Marx: "Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity, which is a force that can to some extent serve as a counterweight to the process of accumulation and concentration of private capital." | Here's Thomas Piketty on Marx: "Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity, which is a force that can to some extent serve as a counterweight to the process of accumulation and concentration of private capital." | ||
| "devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically - a complex issue if there ever was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished." | Marx "devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically - a complex issue if there ever was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished." | ||
| Both quotes from Piketty's ''Capital'' p. 10. | Both quotes from Piketty's ''Capital'' p. 10. | ||
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Reminder: this page is about Marx not Marxism
Just a reminder. I noticed some good faith editors were not keeping this in mind Wikidgood (talk) 01:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
- @Wikidgood: Good point; I am adding a notice box to the top of the page to say exactly that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Marx's Ideas Killed over 100 million people, and Misplaced Pages's Liberal Bias
It is understood that this page does not concern Marxism specifically, but it should definitely mention the fact that Marx's ideas, when implemented in the USSR, China and other places, killed over 100 million people. This page doesn't shy away from talking about the tenets of Marxism, why not its devastation and effects? Adolf Hitler's page certainly include the number of people he killed as well as Mao tse-Tung's and Josef Stalin's. To read this page, it would seem like an insignificant fact, or one that doesn't exist at all. The USSR and China specifically adhered to Marxism-Leninism by name, and certainly carried out at the very least the spirit of his ideas. To not mention this is to let Marx off the hook and to contribute to wikipedia's liberal bias. It is the blatant censoring of a scientific fact. I am sure that this comment I am making here will also soon be gone, all in the name of freedom of speech I'm sure. Liberals seem to believe in freedom of speech only when it suits their beliefs. I am sure that it will be censored away due to the idea that this page doesn't concern actual Marxism, or the idea that this isn't a "talk page" for the subject, but let's face it, wikipedia is suppressing free speech and the free exchange of ideas through liberal censorship. The fact that Marx's ideas killed more than 100 million people is beyond dispute. Here is an academic link with a .edu address to a survey conducted at the University of Hawaii.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.16.127.130 (talk • contribs) 13:16, November 20, 2014 (UTC)
- The articles on other historical thinkers does not make this type of claim either, for example Jesus or John Locke. Your link btw does not say that Marx's ideas killed anyone and in fact it is not a survey conducted at the University of Hawaii, but the calculations of a professor, Rudolph Rummel, whose estimates are generally considered to exaggerated. TFD (talk) 04:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- While I am more favorably inclined towards Rummel's estimate, Misplaced Pages is not a good place for anyone who claims that something is "beyond dispute". Go read up on WP:NPOV, please. Anyway, the suggestion is about as ridiculous as suggesting that we list the estimates of victims of Crusades on the page for Jesus Christ, or the number of victims of religious wars on the page about God... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Some mention should be made of the horrendous death toll inflicted by Marxists!Jimjilin (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
karl marx religion
why karl marx show in the section category of germans jews english jews and atheist jews.he converted to christianity when he was 6 he should be showen under the categroy christianity converted from judaism. -— Preceding unsigned comment added by .29.235.194 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 23 November
The current issue is not whether atheism is a religion - in my view it is clearly not a religion - but whether the words "Religion: None (Atheist)", as opposed to "Religion: None", imply that atheism is a religion. In my opinion they do not. Adding the word (Atheist) simply provides additional neutral information to readers as to the particular stance he adopted. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Criticism of Karl Marx
Walter Williams' scholarly opinion and direct quotes from Marx should not be covered up, don't you agree?Jimjilin (talk) 20:41, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Facile blanket statements sourced to a trivial article on a partisan website do not belong in an article of this significance and quality. There is a mass of scholarly work on Marx available, including extensive discussions of his 'antisemitic' and 'racist' statements which actually place them in context. If you feel that the article should cover this topic, do the research, find appropriate sources that actually discuss the matter rather than cherry-picking, and then come back with a concrete proposal for text that consists of more than name-calling. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Aren't you the one name-calling? You can call Williams' article trivial but that doesn't make the direct quotes go away. Is racism of trivial importance? You seem to be saying these ugly racist statements would be okay in "context"! This Misplaced Pages article is of such high "quality" that it fails to criticize Marx in any way. Maybe the article should discuss Marx and his hostility toward democracy and individual liberty or maybe the many dictators inspired by Marx.Jimjilin (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe you should get off your soapbox and find appropriate sources - which is to say ones that actually discuss the subject in depth. Of course by 21st century standards Marx's statements may be considered offensive. They are hardly atypical of his time however, and any credible commentary is going to start with that premise - and then actually discuss how Marx's views on such subjects accorded with those of his time and how they fitted into his broader outlook. Our article, if it is to cover the topic, needs to do the same. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Maybe you should stop trivializing racism. By "discuss the subject in depth" I guess you mean pile up a lot of words that obscure the plain facts. You seem to be saying that because Marx wrote in the 1800s his racism should be excused and ignored! Are you really making such an absurd suggestion?Jimjilin (talk) 05:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Magazine articles from scholars like Williams are accepted throughout Misplaced Pages. Your objection is ridiculous. Anyway, I have another source: Weyl, Nathaniel, Karl Marx, racist (1979)Jimjilin (talk) 05:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- You do realise that Nathaniel Weyl was himself a supporter of segregation, and of the white minority regimes in southern Africa? AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Andy - Frontpagemag.com hardly has the weight for inclusion. Incidentally, the book was not called the Manifesto of the Communist Party, there was no Communist Party in 1848. You would need a source that portrayed Marx in the context of the times, and compared his views with other 19th century figures such as Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Lincoln, Robert E. Lee, Disraeli, Carlyle and Dickens. (He actually mentions Carlyle and Dickens although your edit did not.) Is there anything exceptional about his views in this regard? TFD (talk) 08:14, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Nathaniel Weyl also voted for Bill Clinton, that doesn't change the fact that Marx was a racist.Jimjilin (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
As The Four Deuces points out Carlyle and Dickens are mentioned in the article. Engels is also mentioned. So other 19th century figures are mentioned. Jimjilin (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I'll include: According to scholars Walter Williams and Nathaniel Weyl, Marx held racist views.
I think I've answered the objections.Jimjilin (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- You will have to find better sources than these, and then to better make the case. The first source is an opinion blog on a site that also includes articles like "how to cure your approval addiction." The posting includes no citations and no sustained discussion of the matter. The second citation is incomplete. Furthermore, the case needs to be made, not just opined. It is not enough to say that some random dude wrote something on the internet accusing Marx of racism. This does not add to the page, it does not add to knowledge, nor our understanding of Marx. If you are adamant about this aspect of Marx, I encourage you to put your effort into doing more research on the matter. Archivingcontext (talk) 15:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- This cherry-picking from dubious sources may satisfy you, but not anyone else. It is clear that your edits have been opposed by at least four other editors, while not one has supported you. Yet you continue to add this disputed content. Please stop this disruptive editing, and collaborate with others in order to improve the article. RolandR (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Archivingcontext, the Williams article is not a blog. It is an article that directly quotes Marx written by an academic. Why do you say the second citation is incomplete?Jimjilin (talk) 16:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
RolandR, by "cherry-picking from dubious sources" do you mean quoting Marx's actual words? If you think I am cherry-picking please share quotes from Marx wherein he apologizes for his hateful bigotry.Jimjilin (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if I could sell an article about how Marxist tools at Misplaced Pages employ feeble excuses to cover up Marx's racism and love of tyranny.Jimjilin (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Could someone please tell me why my quote from Bakunin is being censored. Is any criticism of Marx permitted in this article? One would think that a man whose devotion to dishonesty and hatred of freedom inspired so many mass-murdering dictators would receive something less than groveling praise. Jimjilin (talk) 13:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- The quote does not fit. It comes out of nowhere and does not add anything to the article. It appears as a random quote by an anarchist. At issue here is not the criticism of Marx, but rather that it is not very well supported or articulated. There is substantial scholarship criticizing Marx, which has been drawn upon for this article. If you think that there is more to say, I encourage you to do so, but with better arguments and better resources. Archivingcontext (talk) 04:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Archivingcontext, Bakunin is an extremely important thinker and his opinion of Marx has great historical significance. Surely there must be someplace for this quote in an article that rambles at length about such world-shaking topics as Marx's 1841 trip to Bonn. Can the quote be placed in the section on Marxism? And by the way I enjoy the pretense that your objection is based on concern for quality rather than suppression of any criticism of Marx.Jimjilin (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Can you provide a source for your assertion that "Bakunin is an extremely important thinker and his opinion of Marx has great historical significance"? Who says so? I'm sure that some anarchists would like to argue this, but they are hardly the most significant faction in contemporary political thought. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- P.S. A little research (i.e. reading our article) would also reveal that Bakunin was an antisemite: "this whole Jewish world which constitutes a single exploiting sect, a sort of bloodsucker people, a collective parasite, voracious, organized in itself, not only across the frontiers of states but even across all the differences of political opinion—this world is presently, at least in great part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand and of the Rothschilds on the other". If we are to include Bakunin's criticism of Marx, should we include this quotation? And if not, why not? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't even need to plow through all this to realize that Andy, in this instance, is providing a much - needed series of insightful observations which upset the facile trend in point. And often I find his objections to be overzealous. But for starters whenever I see a formulation along these lines: "ARTICLETOPIC AND -----" I suspect an agenda. Wikidgood (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wehl's agenda was to show that the Communists (and liberals) did not have the best interests of the Negroes, that they were using them to destabilize the U.S. by telling them they were equal to white folks. TFD (talk) 05:06, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Andy the Grump, why does the article quote Eric Hobsbawm and Che Guevara praising Marx? Why not Bakunin or Giuseppe Mazzini criticizing Marx? Here's Mazzini describing Marx: “a destructive spirit whose heart was filled with hatred rather than love of mankind . . . extraordinarily sly, shifty and taciturn. Marx is very jealous of his authority as leader of the Party; against his political rivals and opponents he is vindictive and implacable; he does not rest until he has beaten them down; his overriding characteristic is boundless ambition and thirst for power. Despite the communist egalitarianism which he preaches he is the absolute ruler of his party; admittedly he does everything himself but he is also the only one to give orders and he tolerates no opposition". Could it possibly be that you want to exclude Bakunin or Mazzini only because they fail to praise Marx?? And by the way if you want to include Bakunin's Rothschilds quote as well that's fine.Jimjilin (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm so glad you brought up anti-Semitism. Here's Marx: What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
I'll guess that you feel this quote is not of sufficient "quality" to be included in the article. It's after all only accurate and typical of Marx's attitude.Jimjilin (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Four Deuces, your mind-reading abilities aside, do you have any reason to believe the quotes are inaccurate?Jimjilin (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
From Misplaced Pages: Bakunin's enormous prestige as an activist made him one of the most famous ideologues in Europe, and he gained substantial influence among radicals throughout Russia and Europe.
quote: an important and influential political theorist http://www.akpress.org/bakuninphilosophyoffreedom.html
quote: activist-founder of world anarchism https://libcom.org/library/bakunin-anarchy-selected-works-activist-founder-world-anarchism
If there are no other objections I'll add the quote from Bakunin. The existing article is in violation of Misplaced Pages rules. The article is a love note to Marx and censors the many voices that have criticized Marx.Jimjilin (talk) 02:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no consensus here whatsoever to include the Bakunin quotation, and the fact that obscure anarchist websites consider him "an important and influential political theorist" is no justification whatsoever for inclusion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Jimjilin, the issue is not whether the quotes are correct, but what weight they hold in reliable sources. When I google the Bukanin's quote, I find only 0 sources use it, all of them U.S. right-wing non-reliable sources. (The only other hit is the text of Bukanin.s letter on the Marxists Internet Archive.) IOW absolutely no notice has been taken of this criticism in rs, and therefore policy says we should also ignore it. TFD (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The Marx-Bakunin conflict is significant.
quote: THE TEMPESTUOUS relation between Marx and Bakunin is a well known legacy of the history of western socialism. source: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/bio/robertson-ann.htm
http://marxwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/bio/index.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/anarchism/index.htm
http://www.academia.edu/2928100/_Marx_Bakunin_and_Historical_Materialism_
http://www.socialist.net/marx-versus-bakunin-part-one.htm
Play about the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/theater/26conn.html?%20Karl&pagewanted=all&_r=0Jimjilin (talk) 12:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump, absurd! The Bakunin-Marx conflict is discussed all over the internet.
Is this site unreliable and obscure: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/367265/Karl-Marx/35434/Role-in-the-First-InternationalJimjilin (talk) 12:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- The EB source discusses the differences between Bakunin and Marx - it doesn't cherry-pick a quote from Bakunin. If our article needs to expand on the Marx-Bakunin debate, fine, we can do so - but in a manner that actually tells the readers what the debate was about, and what the positions of the two were, rather than simply as an excuse to include out-of-context rhetoric. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump, you seem to feel the quote I included is not typical of Bakunin's attitude towards Marx and taken out of context. Why?Jimjilin (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Criticism section?
Perhaps a section at the end of the article entitled criticism or critique would address the concerns raised and serve as a means to highlight constructive criticism of Marx. The challenge, however, would be to make it a meaningful addition to the article that put those voices in dialog with Marx and his ideas and not make it just a laundry list of Marx bashing quotes. Archivingcontext (talk) 15:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Criticism sections are generally a sign of poor style. Remember too this article is about Marx, not his writings. Criticism should be incorporated into the article. It would be unwieldy, especially since Marx presented differing views in his writings. TFD (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Archivingcontext. TFD, if you think "Criticism should be incorporated into the article." where can we start?Jimjilin (talk) 11:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- You could start with this for some serious crit of Marx:
- http://www.amazon.com/Red-Prussian-Life-Legend-Karl/dp/0948859008/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0R81KTJTPQWQZ4VDH2BZ
- Gravuritas (talk) 23:17, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Here are some possible quotes for the criticism section:
The Italian revolutionary Giuseppe Mazzini called Marx “a destructive spirit whose heart was filled with hatred rather than love of mankind . . . extraordinarily sly, shifty and taciturn. Marx is very jealous of his authority as leader of the Party; against his political rivals and opponents he is vindictive and implacable; he does not rest until he has beaten them down; his overriding characteristic is boundless ambition and thirst for power. Despite the communist egalitarianism which he preaches he is the absolute ruler of his party; admittedly he does everything himself but he is also the only one to give orders and he tolerates no opposition".
In 1872 Marx's rival Mikhail Bakunin wrote that Marxism: "can excite the imagination of the workers, who are as eager for justice as they are for freedom; and who foolishly imagine that the one can exist without the other; as if, in order to conquer and consolidate justice and equality, one could depend on the efforts of others, particularly on governments, regardless of how they may be elected or controlled, to speak and act for the people!" Bakunin went on to predict:
For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.
Here's Camus on Marx: http://www.ppu.org.uk/e_publications/camus3.html
Bertrand Russell and George Orwell had some interesting things to say about Marx too.
Here's Thomas Piketty on Marx: "Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity, which is a force that can to some extent serve as a counterweight to the process of accumulation and concentration of private capital."
Marx "devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically - a complex issue if there ever was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished."
Both quotes from Piketty's Capital p. 10.
More on Piketty and Marx: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/business/international/taking-on-adam-smith-and-karl-marx.html?_r=0
As is, this article is heavily biased and in violation of Misplaced Pages rules. I know Stalinists (like R. Roland) are not going to accept any criticism of Marx, but how about the rest of us? Jimjilin (talk) 14:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams062106.asp
- Weyl, Nathaniel Karl Marx, Racist Arlington House (1979) p. 21
- Fritz Raddatz (1975, 1978) Marx: A Political Biography; Boston: Little, Brown; p. 66
- http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/1872/la-liberte.htm
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