Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Gibnews: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 15:15, 15 July 2006 editAzmoc (talk \| contribs)184 edits →Outside view ← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:59, 15 July 2006 edit undoAsterion (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users11,293 edits →Outside view by Garcilaso: i agreeNext edit →
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Revision as of 17:59, 15 July 2006

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 18:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 07:12, 28 December 2024 (UTC).

Gibnews (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

Constant removal of sources and biased POV editing (erasing) of Gibraltar article by User Gibnews. Effectively "owning" the article.

Description

User Gibnews has been persistently censoring the Gibraltar article. His behaviour falls short of outright vandalism but it consists of imposing his POV view on all other users by daily revertals and refusal to engage in constructive discussion or consensus building. He accuses all wikipedians who do not agree with him on a number of issues (a majority of editors of the Gibraltar article) of being "pro-Spanish", part of a Spanish conspiracy and spreading lies and propaganda.

The main problem with his behaviour is that he has erased dozens of respectable sources included in the article by a number of users over the past months. He considers they are not worthy of being included in the article since they contradict his biased POV. He has even gone as far as erasing the disputed tag from the article while imposing his view on all other users who disagreed with him.

A number of users (including myself, user:Asterion, user:Ecemaml and many others) have given up on contributing to the article but I have noticed that others (such as user:Panchurret) continue to contribute sources which are promptly erased by user Gibnews.

Evidence of disputed behavior

For proof see the following examples of his behaviour.

Unjustifiable deletion of valid, up-to-date sources on the Gibraltar article by user:Gibnews (including the UN, OECD, IMF and -ironically- the Gibraltar government websites):

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Some sources erased repeatedly by Gibnews:

Applicable policies and guidelines

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

Other users who endorse this summary

Szvest 22:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

BACKGROUND

There is a real and accepted campaign by the Government of Spain to engage in economic sabotage of Gibraltar and to interfere with any activity which generates a profit or shows the Gibraltarians in a positive light internationally

For background please read the following websites (none of which are mine)

1. Football

2. Restrictions imposed on Gibraltar by Spain

We conclude that the series of allegations which Spain makes against Gibraltar appear almost wholly to be without substance. In many cases, it is not just the Government of Gibraltar but the British Government as well which is traduced. It is deeply regrettable that allegations are made that cannot be sustained by a basis in fact. - House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee 1999

Sadly some people consider it their duty to continue this by promoting the above mentioned 'Spanish' view of Gibraltar in the media including Misplaced Pages.

When I first looked at the page it suggested that the Gibraltarians were a a bunch of drug smuggling pirates living on stolen Spanish territory. That has gone, but with a lot of effort, and the pages are now factual and informative.

NATURE OF THIS COMPLAINT

Let us turn to the specific allegation that I have deleted well sourced material

1. ALLEGATION GIBRALTAR IS LISTED AS A TAX HAVEN BY THE OECD

Simply, that is false, it is not. The OECD do not use that term on their website today. So what is the 'source given'

http://www.oecd.org/document/59/0,2340,en_2649_201185_2074555_1_1_1_1,00.html

Please now look this up and you will find a dated article from 2002 :

Gibraltar Commits to Co-operate with OECD to Address Harmful Tax Practices ... Gibraltar will not be included in the list of unco-operative tax havens to be issued shortly.

Which actually says what a good job Gibraltar is doing and says it is not on its list of 'tax havens' as claimed. And that was in 2002, they have since stopped using the term !

So I removed the reference to 'tax haven' and the OECD it was because it was used inappropriatly.

2. ALLEGATION THAT THE IMF SUPPORTS THE VIEW THAT GIBRALTAR IS A TAX HAVEN

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ofca/ofca.asp

Again, please follow this link and you will find a page which says about Gibraltar

Gibraltar -- Assessment of the Regulation and Supervision of Financial Services - October 31, 2001 (558 k pdf file)

Again this is OUTDATED however, take some time to download the report and you will find it is actually very positive about the regulation of financial services in Gibraltar:

The FSC carries out its duties diligently and has an intimate knowledge of the institutions under its supervision. Its policy is to be approachable and accessible to its licenses and this is characteristic of small jurisdictions where people are well known to each other. There is general acknowledgement in the industry of the FSC’s professional approach.

Again the cite given does not support the claims made, if you examine it.

Going through the list provided;

Item 1..4 covered by the above regarding tax haven
Item 5 removal of claim that Gibraltar was the first Jewish state - False
Item 6..8 Claim that the Spanish Government 'objected' to our referendum - False
Item 9-12 Attempt to label Gibraltar a tax haven for propaganda purposes
Item 13 'totally disputed' template removed as no actual dispute included on talk pages)
Item 14..16 Item on taxation inappropriate for main article removed and a factual one later added to the seperate detailed section on 'taxation'
Item 17 Removal claim that 'The UN regards Gibraltar as a colony' it does not.
Item 18 Item 14..16 revisited

The Government of Gibraltar website, like all sites sometimes contains errors, if there is anything there describing Gibraltar as a tax haven, please post the link on my discussion page and it will be corrected promptly.

CONCLUSION

Gentlemen and editors, having shown that the particular item about 'tax havens' was malicious and unsourced I invite YOU to now remove it from the article on Gibraltar as it does not belong in an encyclopedia. This is what I did,

Why are we here ? yes I have upset a number of people by insisting that the pages about Gibraltar are factual and honest. In doing so I have tried at all times to be polite and to reason with people, even when there has been clearly a lack of good faith, or in the case of spurious templates, no response.

Another entity user:Gibraltarian Gibraltarian faced similar problems lost the plot and has been banned, I'm sure some would love to have me banned too so they can write whatever nonsense they like about Gibraltar. In the case of the above deletions, the evidence is clear and at all times I have tried to discuss things politely, provide cites, references and photographs. What I deleted was nonsense

I live in Gibraltar and deal with all levels of people daily and have access that others who gain their information from reading Spanish newspapers and exercising their prejudices simply do not.

Check the sources, read the talk page and form your own views, the truth is out there.

Users who endorse this summary:

--Gibnews 23:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC) I would further add that I am not expressing a POV but disputing the validity of FACTS presented as the references given do not support the claims of the editor.
-- Rockeagle 09:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Please see evidence of news doctoring, corruption of journalists which may colour Spanish opinion. Gibraltar article seems up-to-date and unbiased, Military section needs finishing!
--Astrotrain 17:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Note that the editors in question have a poor grasp of writing in English, and many of their additions are deleted because they simply do not make any sense. I would also agree that stating the territory is a tax haven and then linking to articles from several years ago that do not explicity agree with what they are saying is not a good idea. Astrotrain 17:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Outside view by David

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

This behaviour looks very reminiscent of the permanently blocked User:Gibraltarian. Has a checkuser been undertaken?

Users who endorse this summary:

Comment 1 The common factor is that we have both had to deal with abusive behaviour. However the response is different; I can assure you I am not user:gibraltarian nor do I do things the same way and that is clear to those involved. --Gibnews 14:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment 2 Yes a checkuser is not necessary. I am sure they are two different users.--Burgas00 19:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment 3 Fair enough. Others seem to be in agreement with you, as well. David | Talk 14:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment 4- it is unlikely that this is the case, as there is a marked difference in behaviour between the two. Astrotrain 17:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment 5 - Gibnews is very unlikely to be Gibraltarian under another name; for a start, Gibnews appears to be sane... -- ChrisO 20:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Outside view by Garcilaso

The user Gibnews has a legitimate point of view, that may represent other people´s opinion, mostly in Gibraltar, but it does not legitimate him to delete other points of view or sources. The evidences given of a destructive attitude are overwhelming. The best thing Gibnews could do is to add his sources (Gibraltar Governement´s) to the other ones so that the reader sees there are various POV, but never deleting contrasted and serious references. If he thinks that they are obsolete, he may find the possible new OECD report that supports his oppinion and ADD it to the others, not instead. Even if it is related to the past (I just don´t know), what Gibraltar has been is as important to an Encyclopedia as what it is now: Nobody questions that in the article :Spain it must mentioned that it was formerly under a dictatorship as well as that it is now a Democracy.

What a person, an entity, a region or a country says of itself is an important fact to be written, but it isn`t always the truth, or at least, not all the truth, and it is necessary for an Enciclopedia to have all the information. Please, forgive my poor English.

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view by Spangineer

This is a controversial subject, and emotions are going to run high by default. Both sides can take steps to promote civil discussion and improve the article. First, sources must be used, and they must be used appropriately. Gibnews is correct to disapprove of the addition of outdated sources that do not directly back up a claim. However, Gibnews may sometimes need to be reminded that, according to WP:NPOV, "All significant published points of view are presented" in Misplaced Pages articles. All documented opinions, whether true or false, must be included. The goal is not to present "accurate" or "factual" information. The goal is to include all documented opinions and facts and let the reader decide which is accurate.

I'm pretty sure that Gibnews understands this, and I hope this reminder isn't necessary. He has done beneficial work and probably represents the best chance we've got to develop articles on Gibraltar that are fair to Gibraltar. He demands good sources, and is generally civil. I encourage him to keep working on Gibraltar related articles and to continue to demand good references that back up claims in the article.

Users who endorse this summary:

Spangineer (háblame) 17:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Gibnews should also bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox; at the end of the day, he's not here to "defend" Gibraltar but to represent the issues fairly, even when he disagrees with what is being claimed. See also Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ#Writing for the "enemy". -- ChrisO 21:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. So long as Gibnews reads sources properly before discarding them as "outdated" and understands that so far none of us have "attacked" Gibraltar in any way. The so-called slander campaign Gibnews is constantly talking about is non-existant in wikipedia.--Burgas00 22:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Outside view

I am an American and so impartial, however it does look suspicious that it is always the Spanish people who want to say bad things about Gibraltar and attack this guy for doing a good job. Spain wants to take over Gibraltar again and who knows what for but its wrong. --bxlbaby 13:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

Comment 1

Thanks for your contribution bxlbaby.

As far as I know Burgas00 is a British citizen. Anyway, I think it's true that as Spanish i'm biased against Gibraltar in some ways, at least we have been always taught that it is a tax haven, maybe from the worst class, and spanish media isn't really pacient when troubled British nuclear submarines go there for maintenance. Talking about present day, most people here doesn't really care about Gibraltar soverignty. At least that's what I feel.

So I came here at first looking for a NPOV to contrast with my previous inputs, and I found Gibnews imposing his own biased version with very unpolite manners, acting more as a relentless defender of the holy honour of his loved homeland than a faithful Misplaced Pages contributor.

After Burgas00 opened the RfC on him, Gibnews became more calm and more people got involved, so he had to admit sources and those sources grew in number and quality. I think the whole thing has worked for me. It costed a unnecesary waste of time and Gibnews behavior is really regretable sometimes, but hope he has learnt that there are some rules here and, well, I've got a richer and more accurate POV of Gibraltar than before coming here.

--Panchurret 14:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)