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Revision as of 16:53, 8 January 2015 editMiddle 8 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users8,216 edits →Request concerning JzG: +quote← Previous edit Revision as of 17:01, 8 January 2015 edit undoSandstein (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators188,191 edits →Result concerning JzG: cmtNext edit →
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<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.--> <!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.-->
<small>''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''</small> <small>''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''</small>

This is a content dispute and therefore not actionable. The arbitration process, and by extension arbitration enforcement, can only address problems of editor misconduct, but can't decide who is right in matters of content. While it is conceivable that persistent tendentious (aggressively non-neutral) editing could be considered sanctionable misconduct, one talk page edit is certainly not misconduct, whatever its merits may be. Assuming in their favor that they are not familiar with the purpose of AE, I would only warn the complainant that any repeated misuse of the AE process by making unactionable complaints may, in turn, be considered disruptive and sanctionable. Everybody who is commenting here should not comment on the merits of the content dispute; such contributions may be removed as out of scope. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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    Topgun

    Topic banned from making any edit related to wars between India and Pakistan, expiring 12:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Topgun

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    OccultZone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:34, 11 December 2014‎ (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    TopGun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBIPA#Discretionary sanctions :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 20:52, 2 November 2014 Violation of WP:PRIMARY, since the newspaper has only represented the view of Pakistani military commander.
    2. 21:01, 2 November 2014 Use of an image as a source that is hosted on an unreliable self-published source.
    3. 13:43, 9 November 2014 Same use of a WP:PRIMARY and a dubious source like above two diffs on a different page.
    4. 14:28, 1 December 2014‎ Apart from the violation above, this time he has misrepresented the source, when he also changed "Pakistani source" to "Neutral source", even after knowing that it doesn't, per
    5. 06:39, 11 December 2014 Reverted to preferred version, without following consensus on the talk and RSN. This edit also violated WP:NOTADVOCATE since much of its part, starting from "He ordered his staff officer ...." to "...Chawinda till the guns fell silent", is a view of a military men.(WP:PRIMARY)
    6. 09:09, 11 December 2014‎ Misrepresentation of source, linked URL is nowhere stating any results about the battle between two nations, and the highlighted text is talking about a cavalry regiment named, "25th Cavalry".


    • Edit warring
    1. 07:35, 3 December 2014
    2. 09:05, 3 December 2014 (Misuse of Twinkle rollback).
    3. 12:18, 3 December 2014
    3 reverts in 5 hours, but no comments were made on the article' talk.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Blocked 9 times, mostly for disruptive editing and edit warring.
    2. WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive141#TopGun, reads: "Further edit warring or other types of inappropriate behavior will lead to sanctions."
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Apparent WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and usual habit of changing battle results without gaining consensus. I don't see how there was any need to revert any of my changes if he had only read the note that I left on article' talk every time. Accuses of "following" him if you have reverted his edit, and also accuses of "canvassing", if you have asked another editor(who edits similar pages),, or a relevant noticeboard.

    Not to mention that how many times he has tried to misrepresent other editors. As usual, he keeps claiming that I haven't "even verified the source that atleast two editors have", Although he cannot name them, or provide the diffs where they have confirmed this dubious image. It has no mention outside this wikipedia page. As per WP:CONSENSUS, he had no consensus for any of these edits, yet he continues to edit war over them, despite everyone else(except Nawabmalhi),,, , told him not to use a self published and unverified picture. However he still hasn't presented any mention of this report outside wikipedia article. That means even if many other editors would tell him the same, he will still continue to use a dubious image as reference and tell others to follow WP:SOURCEACCESS, which is certainly impossible for dubious references. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

    @Callanecc: According to my experience, whenever I would find that my edit has been reverted or I have reverted others edit, I would hope for a discussion in place of going for another revert. Maybe that's why I haven't reverted the recent edits of TopGun. With this case, things were very different. Since this case, I also think that I understand "consensus" better than I used to. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    @Cailil: I agree that I have made these mistakes, I could have done better. Until today I was unaware that I should have made neutral notification to other user, as well as more neutral AE case. I apologize for that. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

    Today I received a message on my talk from concerning Topgun's accusations of edit warring. I told the editor to address specific concerns on here; if they are addressable. I have recently checked, the article is 2014 Peshawar school attack, I couldn't find any evidence of edit warring by Rsrikanth05, who had been warned by TopGun, not to edit war. I should also mention that the article is not related to India or Bangladesh, it is only related to Pakistan under WP:ARBIPA. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 10:14, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning TopGun

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by TopGun

    • Sigh, this is a content dispute and many editors have said that the source is okay, I'm not even the editor who originally added the sources, Nawabmalhi did when he saw a sock vandalizing content against the sources and I asked him about verification before adding them where he responded positively. OZ on the other hand hasn't even verified the source that atleast two editors have and turns to use a scanned copy of the newspaper provided by Nawabmalhi that I showed him as a courtesy, against me. Full details of the source are present and OZ hasn't even verified the source himself before filing this ridiculous report. Please consider WP:BOOMERANG for this hasty report to try get a content dispute bent to his favour. Please also note I filed this SPI where a concluded sock was vandalizing the article against sources. Now OZ comes along and starts restoring the sock version. After not getting consensus at RSN, and after a user points out that even the source he's giving states the opposite of what he's' saying, he brings the dispute here instead of DRN to have me out of the way so that he can edit and push his POV as much as he likes. Please also note that I have warned OZ for blatant canvassing of another Indian user (who had never edited the article before) who also told him to be neutral at his talkpage and he has been repeatedly going only to WP:INDIA to call in Indian editors that he thinks would support his POV instead of also notifying WP:PAK or choosing a formal noticeboard. OZ first called him to revert where he had a dispute and then went to revert me the article where the editor he canvassed had a dispute with me .. how is that not canvassing? He has also fueled other disputes that had recently been stablized at Kargil war, Operation Dwarka, List of Pakistani wars etc, all of which I avoided reporting to an admin and articles that he never edited before, yet he seeks sanctions to work his way through when he does not get enough editor support. Kindly also note that the links OZ is presenting about old sanctions / blocks were with an abusive sockpuppet Darkness Shines and have been reverted. I find it quite telling that OZ is bringing those up knowingly. He also does not recognize that "no consensus" defaults to status quo and tries to revert again to his favoured version. I've already had enough of such editors lately, now he's appearing up at articles that I edit and he's never edited. I also find it utterly deceiving on OZ's behalf that he calls this a misuse of twinkle rollback in his statement while it was just that I forgot to give an edit summary and made my correction in the very next edit and in the next few seconds by making a null edit . --lTopGunl (talk) 14:12, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Would some one also revoke talkpage and email access of Darkness Shines (an indeffed sock puppet who had hounded me for two years) who is sending OZ emails and I do not find the possibility of canvassing OZ to make edits on his behalf unlikely. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Cailil, I added the source you quoted calling my edit disruptive just today to support the victory part and I quoted it in the edit summary. The infobox title was already sourced by Canberra times and The Australian, would you consider retracting that remark? --lTopGunl (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    Kindly see the diff .. he pinged him and told him to check his email. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    The source talks clearly of Indian defeat (25th cav in source was the unit at Pakistani side as per the source) and an editor from RSN said "The second, on pp.35-6, says that the Pakistani's defeated the Indians at Chawinda (& v.v. at Asal Uttar)" on the talkpage, I decided to add it to the article as well. My intent was anything but to spam. And like all other claims of OZ, this too isn't solely based on my opinion.. that doesn't make it disruptive.. just content related. Sorry but I do not think DS's actions ever come out in the wash. I got blocked and Ibanned due to his baiting as seen in the linked discussion; they never did get washed out and I find it quite disruptive that he still continues from within his block. The fact that he removed a large chunk of content while pinging shows that he wanted to hide the ping so that it would look he only blanked and is clearly watching this discussion . IMO, that's proof enough why he would email OZ and as if forwarding an email to you preserves any proof of originality. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    To add to the contention, OZ is moving the goal posts by making the scanned copy of the image (which is not even required for the article) to be the center of the reference while it is not as per WP:SOURCEACCESS and keeps on changing my argument and refutes something that is not my argument rather a courtesy add on. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • @Callanecc, My comment was solely to show blatant canvassing and esp to show the divisiveness.. since when does making a comment to show divisiveness by another editor (with diff and not just blank argument) makes me guilty of the same. I don't mind editing with editors from any country and I've done so since years. With all my actions backed up by actions of other editors I think bans and actions on this report would be exactly what OZ wants and is not the way to resolve a content dispute (and that too just for a singular instance of perceived issues?). I don't find it fair to be blamed of source misrepresentation when in each case I first consulted other editors. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:28, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    If I had to wrongly imply anything, I'd not have mentioned myself that Strike Eagle "also told him to be neutral at his talkpage". I've been fully transparent. I find it will hardly be constructive to simply ban me from the major topic area that I edit.. you might as well go for a site ban then given the lack of WP:AGF here on the fact that for each reference I discussed I consulted another editor (I've quoted their statements or discussion links here). The reverts on 3rd December were 3 edits in total and other editors reverted to status quo as well reinforcing the consensus to keep that version... I wont say stayed within a legitimate number of edits as I do understand it was still an editwar but I had no intention of reverting further or continuing an editwar and they are stale so any bans or blocks would be punitive. If that decision on sources was solely my action, I would not have defended my stance this way. For DS, I don't see any public arbcom appeal. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    If you guys would have been familiar with the topic area, I've had enough editors having this WP:BATTLE mentality hounding and following and it doesn't make me divisive to raise the possibility of that reoccurring. My arbcom warning and blocks are rescinded so I see a pretty harsh attitude here for discussing bans and warnings on a malformed report effectively for the first time. OZ had not edited these three articles and started appearing one by one to revert me .. I still didn't report him... how much more good faith can one assume than requesting only on his talkpage to stop. While I appreciate OZ recognizing his mistake, his response to me was quite different . I suggest that the admins leave the content dispute to the editors as there are multiple content venues to decide what a source says and is not a behavioural matter when two three editors quote it and take it differently. If I am wrong, I'm happy to accept it as a content matter but I will not accept the blame of misrepresenting which lacks WP:AGF and was not my intent. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Note that the sock puppet to whose version OZ was restoring was also tagteaming with DS back in 2013 and recently socking at this article and was finally caught. I can't speak for OZ's knowledge of that but I do think the sockmaster Nuclearram (with yet a current pending SPI) may have been in contact with DS. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Kudos to you guys for killing the messenger, that I raised the way canvassing was being done and for only using sources in consultation with other editors :s --lTopGunl (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    • EdJohnston, Two editors who were hounding me on Operation Chengiz Khan were both socks... so way to go for bringing that up (as I already did).. that warning was reverted by an AN discussion linked above for that reason (so no, there's no final warning or any warning on me before this). I don't see how a ban from afghanistan is related here, and how a ban from Pakistan only topics is going to help in this... although you've taken it upon yourselves to ban me for a content dispute, why is a topic ban on all topics being proposed here that hardly relate to the military topics? Also since I am a major contributor to the topic area, a blanket ban from all three topics (esp. Pak) instead of from the specific article or something would be pretty disruptive. --lTopGunl (talk) 05:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Are you going to explain any of your actions or will you be forcing me to go for an AN appeal as soon as you place this ridiculous ban? This also seems to be borderline canvassing to get OZ to oppose me in even a non controversial matter where an editor was reverting editors randomly and warned by me with diffs of his three reverts... OZ is pointing him to give input against me here in return. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    EdJohnston, I didn't invoke the DS related discussions except for two things, 1) the fact that OZ knowingly brought up warning / blocks that were reverted and I had to link those discussions when those warnings and edits against not just one sockpuppet were being discussed (WP:NOTTHEM isn't for sock puppets of blocked editors or block evaders, it's when two valid editors are interacting and I think community has already given their input on that matter and there's no need to re evaluate it unilaterally and subject me to answer for things that community has already stood up for). I wasn't claiming impunity on anything post DS, 2) I had to mention DS emailing OZ... both of them were met with reasonable uninvolved input. I don't think I've mislead anyone in anyway but I do think it is only fair that I respond to allegations that are being placed on me without fully understanding both sides of the story. Also, if you see the RFC at the Battle of Chawinda, there's just as much support for my edit as is for OZ. It's going to be a really bad precedent to ban editors on basis of disagreement. It is clear cut WP:WIN logic to ban editors even if they are wrong in content. Editors are often wrong in content disputes, this has nothing to do with behaviour. You can however ban me because I strongly object here on comments that I disagree with... apparently that's what's leading to most of the fuss here. --lTopGunl (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    • An RFC has been started at the talkpage of Battle of Chawinda where I have demonstrated and am further getting support for the consensus on a version that I edited or a similar one that says "Indian defeat" esp. on the one where I added a new reference to back up the claim of victory and an admin below called it misrepresentation.. so I guess your point of misrepresentation is unfounded. This is a content matter by any definition and admins have no authority over it. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:09, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Hopefully the admins won't be too naive to see the pattern around this topic area and my reasons for the way I phrased my statement and further comments instead of taking them to be what they infact aim to convey. Vanamonde93 was blatantly canvassed by a disruptive editor who had no consensus but was hell bent on pushing POV as well as serial canvassing . I did convince Vanamonde93 of that but the fact that he responded to canvassing and that he actually did emphasize in some way of going for the proposed edits for which he was asked to comment (he did not really support my stance). He did later agree to a compromise which is fine and I did not expect him to be making such a statement here due to that, but saying that he entered a dispute on my side (a WP:BATTLE statement in its own context) is totally incorrect. Maybe some one is emailing random editors at WP:IND with pointers to an obscure AE discussion as this? Sorry can't assume good faith when it comes to patterns after having dealt through a myraid of them and all turning out the same way, but still will not comment on the editors who are commenting here either. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by NE Ent

    Given the link provided by TopGun, I suggest DarknessShine's talk page access and email be removed. See also prior AN discussion. NE Ent 11:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

    The removal of the logged warning was in accordance with DS Appeals protocol; there was an eight day discussion at AN where the overwhelming consensus was the removal was warranted. NE Ent 22:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Rsrikanth05

    I interacted with TopGun only in the last 12 hours and I am absolutely appalled by their behaviour. TG accused me of edit warring, and left a warning on my talk page which Yunshui responded to and clarified that I was in no way, edit warring. Among other claims, TG stated that the warning was to prevent me from any further disruptive edits, and that I had edit warred by undoing his edit, which I had not. Major-General Asim Bajwa was linked, which TG linked as Major-General Asim Bajwa. I merely unlinked the latter as it was a red . The other two EW examples cited was removal of a parent category who subcat was already present and removal of a link to Russian Federation which had earlier been removed by Koavf. Apparently, me doing it is a problem, others is not. Apart from this, I was also notified of the discretionary sanction, which although was good, I feel was unwarranted. Subsequently, I responded on the RfC , where TG automatically seems to assume that they know more than the other. Yes, I know the NLA trove is a digital archive, I have worked on digitisation of papers before. However, what is more appalling is when OccultZone posted about a discussion on the India noticeboard and TG immediately put forth a proposal to try and prohibit posting on such noticeboards in such a situation. Thankfully, such a restrictive proposal was met with no support. My only point here is that TG seems to believe in the 'If it doesn't work my way, then it is wrong' methods. The Holier Than Thou attitude is unwarranted on enwp and I have decided I will not edit any article TG has edited. Not surprisingly, the user who asks me to 'discuss' before I edit themselves is being accused of the same thing above. Apart from a Topic ban of atleast six months, I think an interaction ban would be required. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 20:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by AmritasyaPutra

    I have little (tending towards zero) interaction with TG, but the article talk page does feel like WP:BLUD example. It discourages other editors from participating. I think keeping reference to DS minimum is good. He may not be able to reply here and the circumstances for this report mostly deal with TG behavior for which DS should not be held responsible. --AmritasyaPutra 02:12, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Vanamonde93

    I have only interacted with TopGun once, on Azad Kashmir. Initially, I entered the dispute on TG's side; a new editor was pushing an Indian government POV with a certain lack of discussion (I will provide diffs if asked; I don't currently want to clutter the page). However, that new editor eventually did join a discussion, here, which other editors eventually joined. Despite the original POV push, there was a genuine content issue there; a lack of compliance with a redirect guideline. There were many ways to solve this issue; however (and this is really my point) TopGun essentially restricted their contributions to contradicting other's suggestion, without once providing an alternative. This is not explicitly in violation of any policy; yet a glance through their contributions to that discussion shows an incredible battleground mindset, even when dealing with editors that entered the discussion on their side. DS had absolutely nothing to do with this particular fracas; he had been topic-banned well before. Vanamonde93 (talk) 14:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Strike Eagle

    I've known TopGun for quite some time now and all I can say is that he can't seem to doesn't want to shed his battleground mentality. I would like to say only about the recent issues though. He accused me of responding to canvassing(verified by admins here that there was none) and then reverts me in another article when I add reliable books as sources. He claims stability as the reason for revert...I don't know any policy which states stability means consensus. And then abuses the TW tool by making what obviously is an intentional revert without summary. Later he makes a null edit only to give the most vague edit summary I've seen in my entire life. He doesn't bother to clarify why my book sources are not reliable and his newspaper is more reliable. I still don't get how DS is related to this....apparently it seems as an effort by TG to divert people from his reckless abuse of reversion and self-proclaimed and declared results to wars...Thanks, ƬheStrikeΣagle

    Result concerning TopGun

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    On an initial look. This case is a bit of a mess. TopGun's block log has 8 entries from 2012. MastCell also stated in November 2014 that "a number of TopGun's blocks resulted from his interactions with an abusive sockpuppet (DS); TopGun would likely not have been blocked in some instances if this had been clear at the time". So that point of this complaint is muck raking. Also the list of diffs is mainly non-actionable. Only 2 diffs (and only 1 of the reverts from December 3rd 2014) come after a valid AC/DS notification. Also the point re: ignoring RSN consensus is moot since the discussion at RSN ended without consensus.
    Now after all that these are mainly matters for WP:RSN. Ocultzone's understanding of WP:PRIMARY borders (at best) on wikilawyering. The only matters that comes close to action IMO are the edit-warring on December 3rd and the misrepresentation of sources by TopGun. Regarding the latter this edit is indeed disruptive. The source quoted says nothing about a major Pakistani victory and is in fact a discussion of how both the armies used their armored formations poorly and how both proved adept with smaller forces. How this relates to a "Major victory" for anyone is very unclear. And I would indeed classify this as disruptive use of sources.
    I'd like to see input from other sysops before commenting further but I'm looking at the actions of both TopGun and Occultzone--Cailil 14:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

    TopGun what evidence is there of DS sending emails to OccultZone?--Cailil 15:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    TopGun the source says nothing about ANY victory. You threw in a source that does not relate to the content. That's effectively spamming a contested piece of text with "references" that do not support the assertion. That's disruptive editing. I suggest you don't belabour the point. Also please take a step back there is no need to rush. If Darkness Shines is working with Occultzone it will "come out in the wash"--Cailil 15:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I too am looking at the behaviour of both users. I'm not convinced that there is enough (one edit war which didn't cross 3RR and the source misrepresentation) is enough to topic ban in itself. However the personal attack and divisiveness of referring to another editor you've edit warred with by their country ("another Indian editor" in TopGun's statement) in an AE report suggests to me that the topic area would be best served by removing TopGun from it. Regarding OccultZone, I'm not convinced (yet) that there is enough there to warrant a topic ban yet, also considering that they haven't been reported at AE before, though I wouldn't have an issue with a reminder to submit actionable and relevant evidence and to ensure that they cooperate with others when trying to come to a consensus. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Agreed. The things I find most pressing on TopGun's side are is misuse of sources (and defense of that) and indeed the casting of aspersions. OccultZone was admonished by the user (StrikeEagle) he contacted, TopGun's over-hasty and divisive action then (December 3rd) and now in misconstruing it in a way that implies impropriety on StrikeEagle's side (where there was none) is a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. On OccultZone's side this whole case is designed to rake as much mud and patch together as many things to make TopGun look bad (which was thoroughly unnecessary) combined with the non-neutral message to StrikeEagle which although not canvassing was bad form (see here). Given all that I'd be happy with a final warning to OccultZone re:WP:BATTLE (and unclean hands at WP:AE) and a topic ban for TopGun--Cailil 12:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Re: Darkness Shines, he implies that he has appealed his ban to ArbCom. I can see good reason to revoke talk page and email access but given that appeal I'd like to see an Arb comment--Cailil 12:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

    Since there's been no further admin input, since the comments from myself and Callanecc, I'd suggest closing with a topic ban (from the India, Pakistan and Afghanistan topic areas) for TopGun, and a final warning re: WP:BATTLE for OccultZone. Unless there's further comment in the next 24 hours I'll make that close myself.
    Given the complexity of the Darkness Shines issue I'd suggest being conservative, however if the BASC does not unblock him and there is any further interference with this topic area an individual case laying out all the evidence and the timeline might (and I stress "might") be necessary--Cailil 13:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

    This report shows edit warring by User:TopGun on the Battle of Chawinda, a topic from the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 and follows a previous AE complaint in late 2013 at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive141#TopGun. At that time the complaint was about edit warring at Operation Chengiz Khan, a topic from the 1965 war between India and Pakistan. The decision in the 2013 AE case was to issue TopGun a final warning. If it was in fact a final warning then this time around we need to do something. So I would propose a ban of at least three months from the topic of all the wars between India and Pakistan. I don't see enough problem with User:OccultZone's edits to do anything. His decision to go to WP:RSN was reasonable and is a good step to take to minimize edit warring. If a formal RfC had been held at Battle of Chawinda (which would have been sensible) my guess is that OccultZone's arguments might have prevailed. TopGun's effort to make this battle into a major Pakistani victory looks like an uphill struggle given the sources. EdJohnston (talk) 05:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I'm happy with the area of your suggested ban, however given that the final warning was a year ago I wouldn't think that three months is going to do the job. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    There is an issue (see here) with how the final warning was removed from the log such that I don't believe it should have been as it was a discretionary sanction, so we should probably wait for that to be sorted out before we take action here. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:53, 17 December 2014‎
    I agree with Ed re: the 3 month ban. But I do see exactly where you're coming from Callanecc. Given that this is a first topic ban I think 3 months is a reasonable sanction. If TopGun returns and repeats old behaviour we can note here that recidivism will be looked upon harshly. If there is no consensus re: OccultZone then we have to leave that (however, I consider the conglomeration of actions on view here to be sufficiently belligerent to raise concern).
    There are a number of messy aspects to this case however and they revolve around TopGun and OccultZone's interactions with Darkness Shines. To my mind we either take the conservative approach of sanctioning TopGun alone, or we push this up the line to the Committee and let them deal with the whole scenario. Or we do a bit of both, sanction TopGun and let the committee confirm it or repeal it and let them sort out the DS and OZ situation (my preferred option if the conservative approach is not followed). None of these scenarios are good.--Cailil 14:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    IMHO DS is "kicking up enough dust" while blocked for admitting sockpuppetry to cause the complication. If one looks at the DS SPI there is significant concern re: !Vote stacking and hounding TG in the WP:ARBIP area for me to raise an eyebrow. Furthermore the interaction issue between both TG and DS is long standing (see here). To my mind none of this excuses TG's actions (especially while DS is blocked) but it may warrant examination. Future Perfect's contribution to the DS SPI is convincing that this is serious. Furthermore given that the BASC may not know (however unlikely that might seem) that this case is significant to DS's appeal perhaps sending the Darkness Shines aspects of this case to the Committee is actually the only thing we can do, given the danger of being countermanded and then creating a further mess--Cailil 14:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    WP:NOTTHEM tells blocked editors not to blame others for their predicament. Though TopGun is not here as a blocked editor, he seems to think a lot of blame for past events can be laid off on User:Darkness_Shines. I don't think Darkness Shines was forcing him to declare the Battle of Chawinda to be a major Pakistani victory in spite of the feeble sources for that conclusion, or to keep reverting when others disagreed. I suggest we do not ask Arbcom to sort this out. You could argue that the edit warring here was not enough to justify AE action, but pointing to Darkness Shines for extenuation is implausible. EdJohnston (talk) 18:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I agree. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:45, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Absolutely I agree there is no excuse for TG's actions. And I support sanction against him. I am however concerned that the wider issue will recur, but perhaps it's best to wait and see with regard to that and just close this with a 3 month topic ban for TG?--Cailil 18:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    I've imposed the topic ban, I think it's best to deal with any further issues then if they come up, or if something happens in the meantime we can address it then. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

    Steeletrap

    Steeletrap blocked for three weeks. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:40, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Steeletrap

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Steeletrap (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian economics#Steeletrap topic-banned
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes#May 2014 (BLP discretionary sanctions)
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 02:53, 29 December 2014 - A series of edits to the article on Reason magazine that removed some secondary-sourced material as non-notable, while grouping two large paragraphs under a section heading for "Promotion of revisionist history and Holocaust deniers" with the effect of drawing special attention to the claims in that section. One of the people named in the section is Austrian economist and Ludwig von Mises Institute scholar Gary North. Steeletrap removed material about North and given the material about North that was retained, the heading could be taken as implying North was a Holocaust denier when the actual content of North's article does not show him expressing such a view.
    2. 21:27, 29 December 2014 - Removes a bunch of mundane biographical material about Justin Raimondo backed by his articles, while leaving more negative material backed by his articles. The removal include a piece written by Austrian Economics and LvMI co-founder Murray Rothbard. Misrepresents a piece by Raimondo where he explicitly rejects conspiracy theories in favor of mainstream news reports presenting information critical of the official story to claim he is a conspiracy theorist in the lede, in addition to adding the "conspiracy theorist" category. An additional change was replacing the "Early life" section heading with an unflattering section heading.
    3. 07:05, 23 December 2014 - Changes section heading about Stefan Molyneux encouraging adults who came from abusive homes to break off contact with their families to describe it as "Encouraging children to leave their families", adds to the lede that Molyneux has been compared to a cult leader, and adds a section based off a single source about a recently-filed lawsuit that is still pending.
    4. - Edit-warring to restore these changes.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This had been raised at AN where there was clear support for some sort of block or extended topic ban against Steeletrap, but it was closed following a request by Steeletrap that a couple editors endorsed on the basis that it should be taken to AE. Steeletrap subsequently left a notice on my page suggesting that any request I filed could be used to accuse me of forum-shopping. Much of the editing Steeletrap has made on the above articles on libertarian topics are similar to those which were so problematic in the Austrian economics case.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

    Ahem, there are BLP discretionary sanctions in place that would cover the rest of Steeletrap's edits, I did cite them above and Steeletrap was notified of said sanctions. Not sure why people keep acting like the topic-ban violations are all that is being raised here.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    Hey, people I am noting the BLP violations that fall under BLP discretionary sanctions as well, not just topic-ban violations. My concern is fundamentally with the malicious editing of BLPs. The topic ban violations are just an additional cause for sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 16:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Steeletrap

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Steeletrap

    Justin Raimondo says Israel knew about 9/11 and did nothing about it. That's a conspiracy theory, according to WP and RS generally. It is a violation of NPOV to characterize these views merely as "questioning the official story," as Devil has. Gary North is clearly a skeptic about whether Jews were exterminated by the Nazis. Such skepticism is akin to skepticism that the world is round. It makes him a Holocaust denier, m unless he has recanted his views. Unfortunately, I have no confidence that the Committee knows what "Holocaust denial" refers to according to RS or that they will take time to look it up. (RS define people such as David Duke who do not explicitly deny but merely express "skepticism" of the Holocaust as deniers.) In any case, my header did not intend to refer to North; in fact, it can be read as referring to the other, more explicit Holocaust deniers mentioned in the article. (The content about the deniers has been in the page for months and was not added by me.)

    I have no confidence in the ability of the Arbs to recognize any of these facts, since the Committee is generally quite lazy and uninformed. Steeletrap (talk) 23:43, 31 December 2014 (UTC) Nor do I have any confidence in their ability to look at the substantive intention of the TB rather than punishing me for clearly accidental and technical violations, which did not make anyone associated with LvMI/AE look bad, and which I corrected seconds later. Steeletrap (talk) 23:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

    Thus, I have decided to leave Misplaced Pages. My decision will be the same no matter whether the Committee comes to a sensible or absurd decision in this case. Steeletrap (talk) 23:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

    One quick clarification, in response to the straw man arguments by other users. Though my retirement is (following this comment) official permanent, it should not be used as an excuse to evade any sanctions. In my opinion, any sanctions in this case would be ridiculous. But the case has to be judged on its merits, without regard for my retirement. It would set a terrible precedent for users to be able to avoid sanctions simply by strategic "retirements." I care about this community too much to endorse terrible precedents for rule-making. Steeletrap (talk) 22:35, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    The laziness of Arbcom continues to cause problems. The vast majority of "warnings" cited by Whisky came from people with vendettas against me who are not even admins; I didn't listen to them because I disagreed with their allegations that I violated the TB. I would bet my life that the Arbs were too lazy to look into whether the previous TB violations of which I was accused were actually violations. (Now, they will rapidly look them up to try to save face; but this attempt at face-saving will be biased, and they will not give a fair hearing to my view that the previous warnings were in relation to non-violations of the TB.) if they weren't, then clearly the fact that I "ignored the warnings" regarding them was justified and had nothing to do with the (accidental, technical, and immediately corrected) TB violations TFD, Srich, and other longtime ideological enemies of mine have pointed to in the present case. I think that the "Arbys" belong at the fast food restaurant, and not attempting to formulate and apply rules. In any case, I'm done with this community. While it's a great resource, it needs better people at the top. The arbs are remarkably lazy and prone to group think. Steeletrap (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC) They also tend to be hypersensitive and obsessed with their power; I guarantee my "block" gets extended simply because I hurt their feelings by calling attention to their laziness and indifference.

    Statement by Bladesmulti

    Steeletrap has been involved in pseudohistorical revisionism. One such example includes her changes on Exorcism, Steeletrap claimed that Exorcism is a pseudoscience. She edit warred, and blatantly misinterpreted the source in order to her preferred version. She also claimed that such claims requires no citations. Many other editors joined this page and told Steeletrap, that how wrong she is, she still seemed to have learned nothing, and further attacked other subjects, one of the editor remarked her thoughts to be anti-religious.

    Such attitude is clearly unhelpful. Bladesmulti (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    3 weeks/1 month block seems like a nice decision. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Rich Farmbrough

    Though I am not always a great fan of Fleet Street as a Misplaced Pages source, this article from The Guardian will give a quick feel for what "deFOO"ing is.

    I would have great concern should Misplaced Pages portray "deFOO"ing as an innocuous or even benign practice, I am sure that the balance of RS do not do anything of the sort.

    As to the other matters I little or no knowledge of them, and hence leave them to others.

    A Happy New-Year! Rich Farmbrough, 02:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC).

    Statement by RAN1

    This complaint has very little to do with the topic-ban. The first diff shows Steeletrap editing ‘’Reason’’. In it, she edits out a passing mention of the criticism received by ‘’Reason’’ in response to articles by Martin and North (used as a lead-in to the next paragraph), but not the information that North wrote such an article. Considering the sentence was a transition and had more to do with the criticism ‘’Reason’’ attracted, this is probably on the fringes of the tban. The second diff removed a deadlink attributed to Rothbard. The source was moved due to restructuring, and the original reference can be found here. Considering the URL was bad and the source is primary, and the other sources removed are mostly primary, the second diff has less to do with Steeletrap’s topicban and more to do with BLPPRIMARY and WP:BANEX. The third diff has nothing to do with the tban. Sanctions here should not be considered under this particular tban. —RAN1 (talk) 03:55, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Stalwart111

    I don't think most of the edits represent a breach of the topic ban, and there's quite some background to my having formed that view. Some 1.5 years back I worked with a small group (including Steeletrap) to clean up a group of articles relating to the LvMI, on the basis that they had been created by obviously conflicted editors (though in good faith) with the aim of promoting the Institute. The articles included BLPs for North and Rothbard and were sourced (almost entirely) to self-aggrandising articles written by their colleagues from the Institute. I formed the view, then, that the group of articles represented a walled garden at least in general terms, if not specific terms (WP:WALLED). The suggestion that the articles were a walled garden or were otherwise closely related was vociferously argued against by a number of people including an editor recently banned by ArbCom for a long history of personal attacks and harassment which started way back during those initial discussions. Correct or not, the view that they were not "all the same" prevailed and has been the established consensus since; each BLP forced to stand or fall on its own merits. It should be pointed out that a lot of that "separation" resulted from work subsequently done by that group to find sources other that colleagues with which to source those BLPs (something later described as an "attack" on BLPs because while many of the non-independent sources were positive, many of the independent sources were critical. I think ArbCom's sanctions against Steeletrap were lazy and didn't take into account the long history in this particular topic area. While I agree that some of Steeltrap's methods have been aggressive, sometimes disruptive and often "take no prisoners", there are born of a genuine desire to resolve some fairly glaring COI, WEIGHT, RS and V issues in some high-profile BLPs. Were I implementing such sanctions, it would be done so from the perspective that all articles in the walled garden that is the LvMI on WP should be considered "connected" and a topic ban from the Institute should therefore be a topic ban from BLPs whose subjects owe their notability to the Institute and its supporters. But the community has decided otherwise and those leading the charge did so with a cloud of personal attacks against Steeletrap and others. To now turn around and say, "turns out you were right, they are closely connected and so you breached your topic ban" is grossly unfair.

    From a purely technical perspective the suggestion that everyone who has ever supported an LvMI initiative or attended an LvMI event or spoken at an LvMI conference or lecture or worked closely with someone who was a member or leader of the LvMI is an "LvMI topic" from which Steeletrap is banned is a bit silly and that doesn't seem to have been the intent of the sanction. The intent seems to have been to ban Steeletrap from subjects/topics clearly related to the institute. I'm not sure what "persons associated with them" is supposed to mean with regard to "Austrian economics". That's a school of thought. Is he banned from editing the articles of anyone or anything or any group which has similar views or an aligned world view? Libertarianism and Austrian economics are not the same thing either. Again my point about the sanctions seeming lazy - catch-all phrases that Arbs thought would allow little wiggle room with no real understanding of the context or the very specific consensus (and very specific personal attacks) that went along with it. They are so vague as to be unworkable and this AE request (which I think is entirely good faith and I have a lot of respect for TRPoD TD'sA) is the direct result. Either make the sanctions clearer and make the associated warnings specific or withdraw them.

    TL:DR? The sanctions were stupid and lazy to begin with and this is the inevitable result. Fix the sanctions or get rid of them. St★lwart 10:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    Srich32977 is partially right with his parole analogy - in this instance it was the parole board responsible for the original conviction though. His "final warning" suggestion is a good one. Just realised my original statement exceeded 500 words, for which I apologise profusely (this is my first ArbCom-related comment anywhere). St★lwart 21:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    @HJ Mitchell, @Callanecc... So without acknowledging the stupidity and laziness of the original sanctions, ArbCom are going to double-down and impose a block for something that even they acknowledge might have been a misunderstanding as to the outer limits of a topic ban? Though good-faith, the warning from Beeblebrox doesn't gel with the history of the issue or with the topic ban that was implemented. It was suggested that he remove "any page related to the topic from your watchlist" to avoid temptation. But nobody seems to have actually defined what those "related" pages might be and (again) Steeletrap was told emphatically, repeatedly (over the course of 18 months) and by multiple people (to the point where they claim consensus) that articles like North's and Rothbard's and Molyneaux's were "not related" except by some tangential "school of thought" type stuff. This was raised in multiple ArbCom cases. Steeletrap and I have an interesting past and I have no "vested interest" in defending him (and I'm not) - this is a process issue that goes to the heart of ArbCom's ability to issue workable and stable sanctions that pass the test of time. Especially since his retirement makes anything moot anyway, ArbCom has a chance to self-reflect and fix the problem (including the other similarly clueless sanctions from the same case). If there are no objections? I suppose I "object" (not that it carries much weight) but more than anything I'm just disappointed. St★lwart 07:22, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
    @HJ Mitchell, I know you're not ArbCom but they seem to have washed their hands of it - leaving the "mere mortals" to enforce their unworkable sanctions. There's plenty of room for doubt because "Austrian school of economics" is a school of thought. It's the Austrian school of economics, not the Austrian School of Economics. You can't enrol there and take a class. Anyone who shares their philosophy could reasonably considered to be "related". It's like a topic ban on "classical music" interpreted to mean anyone who has ever picked up a violin. I don't think the topic ban was "unfair" (he should be sanctioned and I supported topic bans in this area long ago), I think the way it is being enforced is unfair but my opinion is that the unfair enforcement stems from the original wording, not the good-faith efforts of admins here. St★lwart 14:35, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Srich32977

    As mentioned, Steeletrap edit-warred to restore BLP-violations on the Molyneux article. Sadly these were done even though a discussion was underway in which she did not participate. Her TBAN violations were self-excused as being "technical", or "corrected", "not TBAN-type edits", etc. But it was disruptive to give these excuses because the edits should not have been done in the first place. (Patient notice of these violations were placed on her talkpage (now archived).) Stalwart111's criticism of the original Arbcom proceeding (or the Arbcom process overall) does not help resolve what action(s) should be taken. (They are akin to parolees complaining to their parole officer that their original conviction was unjust. The parole officer's job is to enforce the conditions of the parole.) All this being said, I recommend that this AE be closed. Steeletrap needs to be warned, though, that should she return and make more problematic edits, she will be totally banned from editing. – S. Rich (talk) 16:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    I will clarify my parole analogy. The Arbcom is the entity that issued a decision. If a block had been imposed, enforcement would be automatic. Since a TBAN is the sanction, it is up to editors to monitor and comment – and to ask for enforcement when violations occur. – S. Rich (talk) 22:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    @Callanecc: I hope you will consider that a formal warning bit of advice was given once before. Subsequently there were additional violations. Although they are not part of this AE, they were commented on in her talk page. (I was preparing to expound on them here when she retired.) – S. Rich (talk) 01:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC

    @Callanecc: For the AE advice, not a formal warning, given on 13 June. Also see old User TP (20 July, section 38 titled "TBAN"; 5 August, section 39 titled "August 2014; & 3 December, section 46 titled "Topic ban violation"). – S. Rich (talk) 02:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Endorsing a one-month any sort of block. Not that the length is important give her retirement, but the block-log will document the sanction and serve as a reminder to edit more responsibly should she un-retire. And, following unretirement, should problematic edits show up in other areas additional sanctions may be requested. – S. Rich (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Pudeo

    Announcing retirement should not allow the editor to evade accountability, especially as such retirements are often done for drama purposes for periods as short as 24 hours. As pointed out by TFD in the ANI thread, even if it's not a violation of the TBAN, the MO of the disruptive editing is exactly the same as what resulted in the TBAN. And it does appear they in fact are violations of the ban as presented in the opening statement.

    In the ANI thread, Steeletrap went on to accuse Srich of misogynist hounding and TFD of white nationalist bias and hounding diff (which couldn't be further from the truth) and finally bashed the ArbCom in the statement here. Now to consider the TBAN violation as a little mistake worthy of a simple warning after this kind of poison-the-well-and-run tactic would make AGF seem like a suicide pact. --Pudeo' 22:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by The Four Deuces

    Steeltrap begins Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement by Steeletrap by saying, "Justin Raimondo says Israel knew about 9/11 and did nothing about it. That's a conspiracy theory, according to WP and RS generally." That is to justify his 02:12, 29 December 2014 edit, "Raimondo is also a conspiracy theorist and a proponent of 9/11 Truth; he argues that the "official 9/11 narrative doesn't make sense." He explains the edit in his next edit, "(adding that raimondo is a conspiracy theorist.)" The text is entirely sourced to Raimondo's article, "9/11: Our Truth, and Theirs The "official" 9/11 narrative doesn't make sense". In the article Raimondo does not describe himself as a conspiracy theorist, nor are any secondary sources provided to support that judgment.

    After Srich reverted the edit with the notation "Revert edits = TBAN pertains to Mises.org related individuals", Steeletrap reverted more or less to his version with the notation "undoing reversion but re-adding information I deleted about an Austrian economist.".

    This is I believe a violation of synthesis and label. It is particularly egregious because it concerns a biography of a living person. Whether or not Steeletrap is in violation of his topic ban, he has merely moved to related articles and continued the same editing approach that led to his topic ban.

    It seems that only an extension of the ban to all political articles would curb this behavior.

    TFD (talk) 02:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Steeletrap

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    • I'm not familiar with this case (I seem to have somehow ended up mainly dealing with the geo-ethnic bartlegrounds at AE), so I'd like to give Steeletrap a chance to defend herself and I'd like other admin opinions, but on the face of it the diffs do appear to show a topic-ban violation unless there's some subtlety I'm not seeing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
      • I agree that they are violations of the TBAN. Even though it is pushing AGF given the other comments I am willing accept that this was a mistake (didn't realise it was covered by TBAN) and I'd suggest a warning making it clear that any further violation will result in a block (assuming that the retirement isn't permanent). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:24, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
        I'd agree that such a warning might be the best course of action here. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
    Alright I'll close with a warning in 48 or so hours unless other admins have a different opinion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:08, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    @The Devil's Advocate: With just the edits reported I don't think we're at the stage of BLP sanctions yet, though that combined with the TBAN vio is concerning and does call for a logged finally final warning in the AE case. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    @Srich32977: Can you please give me a link to the warning? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:51, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Having seen the number of warnings (thanks S Rich) I'm coming around to the same point of view, but I think imposing the most severe sanction we can is perhaps a bit much, I'd support a two to three week block but not a month. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    • The difference between three weeks and a month strikes me as dancing on the head of a pin but I have no objection to three weeks. A fortnight is too mild in my opinion given Steeletrap's apparent disregard for her ban and lack of intent to comply with it. She could easily have been blocked on multiple prior occasions; that she wasn't appears to be a combination of luck and WP:ROPE. (HJM on my phone. Will re-sign with my admin account in the morning). Whisky drinker | HJ's sock 01:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

    MrX

    No AE action needed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning MrX

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Gaijin42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced

    WP:NEWBLPBAN WP:ARBAPDS

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Congressman Steve Scalise may have spoken at a conference hosted by David Duke over a decade ago. The main source for this claim is a blog, which found an anonymous post on the stormfront website claiming so. Scalise has subsequently admitted to speaking in some capacity, but there is significant room for debate about if he was aware or the groups relationship, or if he even spoke at a different conference entirely at the same location.

    This section is now a massive portion of the subject's BLP based off of a one time event in 2002 and is screaming BLP violation all over the place. It deserves some mention per WP:WELLKNOWN, but not 30% of the article, especially when the core of the story is a SPS blog that found a post of stormfront forums, and ESPECIALLY if any defending comments keep getting removed.

    1. shows that MrX is clearly aware of the dubious WP:GRAPEVINE sourcing of this very defamatory claim
    2. Use of personal blog as a source for defamatory content.
    3. Removing sourced notable opinions commenting on the issue providing balance (Although WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV could have been better)
    4. Removing opinions again (that were better attributed) and restoring SPS blog as a source
    5. Addition of contentious material to lede without sourcing as required by WP:LEADCITE "Some material, including direct quotations and contentious material about living persons, must be provided with an inline citation every time it is mentioned, regardless of the level of generality or the location of the statement."
    6. WP:COATRACK Addition of information about other people's membership in group
    7. Removal of sourced statements from those directly involved in incident.


    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MrX&diff=640662726&oldid=640567495

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Bbb23 yes, MrX filed first. I had been considering this report prior due to the issues above, but wanted to keep things collaborative. However, if the ability for me to deal with obvious BLP issues is hampered then other avenues must be followed. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

    Sandstein MrX is aware of the American politics case since he just filed a report on Azrel and he is very active at WP:BLPN so should be very well aware of the BLP policies.

    Sandstein Callanecc : MrX and I have resolved our issues with each other and agreed to a Mutual 30 day 1RR in the article in question. See discussion at : User_talk:MrX#blpsps. I believe there is no desire for either party for an IBan (see overtures in that discussion in both directions about editing collaboratively), and in any case, one flare up seems insufficient for such a sanction. MrX has withdrawn his An3 Report, I should have reciprocated here yesterday, but based on the comments below I thought it was already going to be closed. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MrX&diff=640666573&oldid=640663292


    Discussion concerning MrX

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by MrX

    Greetings. My editing and discussion participation on Steve Scalise almost entirely complies with our policies and guidelines, notwithstanding that I am prone to occasional errors. Where I believe I may have erred is by citing CenLamar.com, a political blog of a law student. I cited it, not as a source of content for the article, but as a means for readers to locate the original source of the controversy. WP:BLPSPS advises against using blogs as BLP sources, however it was my recollection that this was not a hard rule, but a guideline subject to editorial discretion. As I conceded here, I should have used CenLamar.com as either a non-citation-footnote or an external link. It is worth noting that dozens of reliable (news) sources have cited CenLamar.com as website that broke the story, thus WP:USEBYOTHERS is a mitigating factor.

    I stand behind my other edits and my conduct. They fall well within the bounds of editor discretion, and in no way violate policy. A review of the article history and talk page will show that I have been careful not to edit war on the article, and I have consistently discussed disputes on the talk page, expressed a willingness to compromise, and I have striven to represent all sides of the controversy according to WP:NPOV.

    In my opinion, this request is vexatious, frivolous, and a direct reaction to my filing an edit warring report on Gaijin42.- MrX 18:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

    • There's no justification for an IBAN. Gaijin42 and I are quite capable of editing the same topics collegially, and absent evidence to the contrary, an IBAN should have never been brought up. We have already arrived at an amicable solution to curtail edit warring. As I mentioned on my talk page, and here for the record, I value Gaijin42's contributions to Misplaced Pages.- MrX 16:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    @Callanecc: To clarify, we didn't agree to an IBAN; we agreed to a 1RR on one article, for the next 30 days. Discussion here.- MrX 00:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Collect

    A clear case where neither editor appears to understand the futility of seeking out the drama boards to redress grievances about the other editor. To that end: a mutual ban on either mentioning the other's name or edits, or editing immediately following the other on any Misplaced Pages page of whatever kind, or of revising an edit by the other except for grammar or spelling would seem better than the usual difficult-to-enforce IBans. Collect (talk) 20:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning MrX

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    • This request is not actionable and borders on the frivolous. All but the last diffs predate the alert and therefore cannot grounds for discretionary sanctions. The last diff, whatever its merits at a content level may be, is not a WP:BLP violation and therefore not grounds for sanctions.  Sandstein  16:48, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Actually, all of the diffs but the last diff (singular) predate the alert, and I agree that the last is not a BLP violation. I disagree that the report borders on the frivolous; it is frivolous.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Gaijin42, the ARCA request by MrX does not demonstrate awareness of BLP discretionary sanctions, because that ARCA request was about American politics, which is not currently in its entirety covered by discretionary sanctions. The request is still not actionable because you have not shown that MrX was aware of WP:NEWBLPBAN before the time of the edits at issue. Incidentally, even your alert is invalid because it does not name the sanctions topic and does not link to the Committee's decision.  Sandstein  17:21, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
    • This isn't actionable with regard to MrX. Both of them are now officially aware of NEWBLPBAN due to their participation here so we don't need to worry about alerting anyone. Regarding Gaijin42, this finding seems to suggest that this behaviour isn't out of the ordinary so I would consider imposing a two way (only because I don't believe one-way IBANs are useful, though apart from that I don't have an objection to someone proposing it) IBAN between MrX and Gaijin42 with a warning that Gaijin42 should expect the same (and a block) if they make any further frivolous reports. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:18, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    • No particular objection as concerns Gaijin42. But I am of the view that no sanctions should apply to MrX (including one end of a bilateral interaction ban), without it being clear that they engaged in misconduct and were previously aware of discretionary sanctions as provided for in WP:AC/DS. This has not been shown here, in my view, and therefore any interaction ban should not apply to MrX.  Sandstein  13:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    MyMoloboaccount

    Not actionable. Edits by other users would need to be examined separately.  Sandstein  13:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning MyMoloboaccount

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Toddy1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    At the very least Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned.


    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 15:28, 3 January 2015 He/she is making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group were guilty of the Holocaust and harbouring Nazi sympathies. This is disruptive.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. There is a mention on his talk page that he/she is subject to a 1RR sanction User talk:MyMoloboaccount#Your 1RR violation. This seems to be linked to a prior account - but I do not know details.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    He filed a successful request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive151#Lvivske at 14:05, 15 June 2014.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I feel it is unnecessary the way he/she raises the temperature of discussions by labeling sources that he/she does not like as "Nazi". It is not the first time that people have complained about it - see User talk:MyMoloboaccount#Danzig

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    17:40, 3 January 2015


    Discussion concerning MyMoloboaccount

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by MyMoloboaccount

    I am not under any 1RR sanctions, there were abolished long time ago.

    As to Volksdeutsche population largely supporting Nazis during the war(with notable exceptions of vourse) this is well known and reasearched subject. There is nothing incivil is stating this, just as it isn't incivil to state that for example Suddeutsche Germans were overhwhelmingly supporting Nazis prior the war.

    See for example the book Himmler's Auxiliaries: The Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle and the German National Minorities of Europe, 1933-1945 by Valdis O. Lumans Valdis O. Lumans. Professor of History. University Address: Department of History, Political Science, and. Philosophy. University of South Carolina ("pro-Nazi sympathies became more pronounced among the Volksdeutsche, some of whom founded local Nazi cells")

    Or Gray Zones: Ambiguity and Compromise in the Holocaust and Its Aftermath Jonathan Petropoulos,John Roth "The Volksdeutsche actions caused the mass deportations of Ukrainian farmers and their families"

    "I feel it is unnecessary the way he/she raises the temperature of discussions by labeling sources that he/she does not like as "Nazi"" Nazi and nationalist sources will remain Nazi and nationalist and can be named as such if there Nazi and nationalist. It has nothing to do about me "disliking them". If I a see a nationalist or Nazi source, I will remove it. This is not the first time we have problem with somebody inserting such a source into main text. I have identified and removed many Nazi and nationalist sources on Misplaced Pages before that were put to push POV edits(for example here where author was a Nazi war criminal Erich Weise)

    PS:Note that the user below uses links and comments below by another editor Volunteer Marek instead of mine.This should be separate. This seems a reaction to WP:ANI thread where the user has been discovered to be using an obscure German author with connections to German nationalists like Hans Rothfels and Fritz Gause and published by publisher harbouring fomer Nazis, to insert in multiple articles statements about "nobody voting for Poland" and "Germans being native".--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    PS2:In addition to comments about Holocaust, Vrinan is now defending German nationalist sources:I'd like to know how you have deemed German nationalist resources unreliable. Are there any studies describing their falsehoods or inaccuracies? Or is this some original research on your part?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Volunteer Marek

    Personally, I find these two comments by Vrinan to be particularly troubling (note that these are comments made by an IP, which Vrinan admitted was them: on Talk:Einsatzgruppen alleges that a well known photo illustrating the Holocaust has been photoshoppe/faked, and similarly on Talk:Sonderkommando.

    Edits of similar nature, including in articles themselves can also be found:

    and here is... well, see for yourself:

    While everyone's entitled to their opinion Misplaced Pages should not be used as a platform for advocacy, especially of these sorts of opinions. Should a separate AE request on Vrinan be filed (I presume the topic of the Holocaust falls within the scope of "Eastern Europe") or is this sufficient? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    @Sandstein - to elaborate a bit on what BMK said, yes, the Holocaust was pan-European in scope (or even universal) but the comments by this user (who mostly edits in EE topic area) concern a photo from Ukraine which is obviously covered by the EE discretionary sanctions. If I am not swamped with work tomorrow I will file a specific request concerning them.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:51, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Statement by Vrinan

    I noticed the recent (past few days) issue of deletion of historical facts from articles as I was browsing cities that existed along the Oder river. I first found that user:Volunteer Marek had deleted a decent amount of information from an article on Gorzow Wiekelpolski, information that pertained to its long and storied German past. I then noticed that he was doing the same to a number of articles. I attempted to discuss this issue with him, first in edit summaries, and then I posed to his talk page. He ignored my edit summaries and deleted my talk page comments, calling me a sock puppet, and saying I was dodging a ban. I brought this issue up at ANI due to his offensive uncivil behavior, but it seems the discussion has been derailed into one regarding the reputability of German nationalist resources. As user:Toddy1 said, that is a content issue. While the content issue is important, I also feel like the behavior issue should be addressed. Vrinan (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

    Regarding my edits to Holocaust related articles, none were substantial, the one to which Marek links involves me suggesting that the source of "established facts" be elaborated upon; there are a few different perspectives to the Holocaust, it is useful to tell from which one of these perspectives are the established facts being drawn.

    I understand that the Holocaust is a hugely controversial subject, so I have not edited articles in any substantial way. I don't see anything disturbing about what I wrote on the talk page; I raise the issue of photo/evidence manipulation, something which has been demonstrated in the past. I also question the settlement upon 5 million non-Jews dead in the Holocaust (why not the many millions who died in Europe in the decade following 1939?). Finally I take issue with using the term Nazi or Nazism to describe a political philosophy and the follower of that philosophy. I strongly believe that encyclopedias should be unbiased, yet this term has clear negative connotations, and it has its origins in the anti-fascist movement. In the singular case of Nazi Party, I might support this terminology as a shorthand, but in the case of "Nazism" (National Socialism), I raised the question on the article talk pages, and the response seemed to be that if the sources took a moral stance against the subject in question and used belittling terms, Misplaced Pages should too. If that is Misplaced Pages policy, so be it. I have not edited those articles in such a fashion in a long time.

    My interest at present is to make sure that information pertaining to German history in the East is not deleted in some anti-German revisionist crusade. If users want to remove or question the information received from the East Prussian Plebiscite, that is fine. But there is no need to engage in wholesale deletion of content, as I have witnessed by both Marek and Mymoloboaccount. Vrinan (talk) 12:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved Beyond My Ken

    @Sandstein - While the Holocaust obviously did have significant consequences throughout Europe, Eastern Europe in particlar suffered. (See The Holocaust#Victims and death toll.) I think a good case could be made that some aspects of the Holocaust should be considered to be under the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions. BMK (talk) 00:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    Result concerning MyMoloboaccount

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    • On its own, this comment does not strike me as sanctionable misconduct. It is criticism of another user's editing, yes, but in a manner that is mostly focused on content rather than on the other person themselves. The merits of the criticism are not ours to determine.  Sandstein  18:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Concerning the edits by Vrinan, they should be discussed in a separate request if they are to be discussed any further. Off the cuff, I think that the Holocaust doesn't easily fit into the Eastern Europe topic area, because it was pan-European in scope and not limited to Eastern Europe.  Sandstein  19:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Per Sandstein, the remarks of MyMoloboaccount are within the bounds of proper comment, though caution is needed. Regarding the topic area: I believe that the actions of the Nazis in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Ukraine easily fit within the traditional scope of WP:ARBEE. The issues raised by User:Vrinan are more fully explained by him and others in this ANI thread (permalink) but they would need a separate AE request, assuming there is any case for sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 03:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

    JzG

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning JzG

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Middle 8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 17 December 2014: JzG/Guy misrepresents scientific consensus about effectiveness of acupuncture (in fact there appears to be no unified consensus, rather a range of views). Asserts "consensus view that the weak positive results are fully consistent with the null hypothesis" despite no evidence to support existence of such scientific consensus. There is no single consensus evident in MEDRS's (or in clinical practice at academic centers, at many of which acupuncture is used) when it comes to efficacy for pain, cf. this; nor is there any source meeting WP:RS/AC. Indeed, there is evidence of a mainstream view (from the highest-quality MEDRS in the field) that acupuncture is more than a placebo and a reasonable referral option (for more re which, please see here ).
    2. I'm not providing other diffs; I believe JzG would readily agree that this is a view he's repeatedly affirmed, and according to which he has edited that article numerous times.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    nothing pertinent.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Here. (only done as a formality; user is a veteran admin active in topic area and is certainly aware of these sanctions)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    It is tendentious to dismiss significant views, especially by admins whose views will tend to weigh more than most users; this is true no matter what side the view is on. Apart from this misrepresentation of the literature, JzG/Guy is highly clueful, and a block or ban would be imo quite unnecessary. All I seek is a warning, and that it be a formal one, since Guy is imo likely to dismiss it if it just comes from me (despite the sources mentioned above). I also hope such a warning would serve to put other editors on notice, e.g. Kww, who has made a similar misrepresentation; see his ArbCom request (diff), as well as editors on either "side" who misrepresent scientific consensus. I suspect Guy will dismiss this and ask for a boomerang, but the evidence is what it is.
    Re JzG/Guy's statement: His sources obviously weigh, but don't outweigh mine and prove no consensus (even if they pretend one exists). He's right re qi but that's immaterial. Also see here (scroll to "The emerging acceptance of acupuncture...) for a quote from Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, the "most recognized book in all of medicine". That too is a stronger MEDRS than Guy's. Also see e.g. National Health Service: "There is some scientific evidence acupuncture has a beneficial effect for a number of health conditions." . I don't say my sources are consensus, just significant views rebutting Guy's assertion.
    I also don't have a high opinion of Guy's ES & reply to my notification. Not the incivility, but the dismissal of valid criticism. And no, this isn't about gaining an advantage in the ArbCom case; it's unlikely to be heard.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    here; diff

    Discussion concerning JzG

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by JzG

    Middle8 accuses me of misrepresenting the scientific consensus. The consensus is that qi and meridians do not exist, there is no empirical evidence to support the existence or validity of acupoints, and the evidence for effect of needling is equivocal and problematic due to the difficulty of blinding to needle insertion.

    Believers, of course, dispute this. That doesn't stop it being true. HSE, Ireland's national health body, summarises absence of evidence for existence of qi. What we do know, is that proponents of acupuncture routinely spin negative results as positive, see Pain Science for example. A systematic review of systematic reviews found no evidence that acupuncture is anything other than placebo. Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh also summarise the scientific consensus as I do. Ernst is arguably the most prominent credentialled expert on CAM in Europe; his studies on acupuncture are regularly published in the peer-reviewed literature (example). His view is actually mroe skeptical than mine, in that he considers the recent evidence with stage-dagger needles is conclusive and proves that insertion of the needle also makes no difference. You can read his views at his blog.

    There are no accepted scientific or medical treatments that rely on the concepts of qi, meridians or acupoints. The acupoints and meridians did not appear in anatomy textbooks last time I checked (I no longer have a copy of Gray's so cannot verify this here and now). There are differences between acupuncture traditions as to their location. There is no consistent associated anatomy. To quote Ernst's 2006 review:

    There is some tantalizing , but no compelling scientific evidence for the existence of either meridians or acupuncture points . Different authors disagree about their location or number. The evidence from histological studies or assessments of electrical conductance is unconvincing . Some researchers have suggested that the collagen content within connective tissue imparts electrical conductive properties which correspond to meridians . If one believed modern texts on acupuncture, there would be no space on our body surface which is not an acupuncture point .

    — Acupuncture – a critical analysis, Journal of Internal Medicine 2006; 259: 125–137

    This is not markedly different from my summary, but it is different, markedly and significantly different, from the "consensus" as expressed by acupuncture advocate Middle8.

    My personal view is that anatomy is actually a form of distraction therapy, a known effective psychological technique. Yes, it's a placebo, but a theatrical one, and sufficiently theatrical to engender known psychological effects.

    This does not, of course, mean that my understanding of the scientific consensus is authoritative or unchallengeable, but it does mean that this request is frivolous, vexatious, and made in order to attempt to gain an advantage in a dispute (see case at ArbCom currently being considered).

    Middle8 is asking you to legislate scientific consensus and establish that his beliefs are objectively correct, while the summaries I cite from journals and other sources are not. Journals are not a magic wand, of course: Chinese journals publish essentially no negative results of acupuncture at all, so the scientific community generally discounts them heavily in reviews. Most of Middle8's mainspace edits relate to acupuncture and TCM, many of them constitute edit warring and I see strong evidence of m:MPOV.

    As an involved administrator I cannot sanction Middle8 for this tendentious behaviour. I think someone else might feel that the WP:BOOMERANG is a real possibility here. Guy (Help!) 14:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by Kww

    JzG has accurately represented scientific consensus. There certainly are groups that have different priorities and, as a result, put out different messages. That's the primary problem with something studied so many times: there will inevitably be false positives, and supporters will seize on those false positives as evidence that the vast bulk of studies are wrong.—Kww(talk) 14:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

    Also, people are guilty of conflating two different concepts, and that conflation is causing us difficulty. Being a placebo doesn't mean it doesn't make people feel better: actually, a placebo specifically is a treatment of no actual value that makes people feel better due to psychological factors. All an insurance company or health subsidy looks at is whether a treatment is cost effective: if a placebo makes some percentage of patients feel better and the cost of that placebo is low, it makes sense for an insurance provider to pay for it. That doesn't make it a medically-validated treatment, it only makes it cost effective.—Kww(talk) 14:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning JzG

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    This is a content dispute and therefore not actionable. The arbitration process, and by extension arbitration enforcement, can only address problems of editor misconduct, but can't decide who is right in matters of content. While it is conceivable that persistent tendentious (aggressively non-neutral) editing could be considered sanctionable misconduct, one talk page edit is certainly not misconduct, whatever its merits may be. Assuming in their favor that they are not familiar with the purpose of AE, I would only warn the complainant that any repeated misuse of the AE process by making unactionable complaints may, in turn, be considered disruptive and sanctionable. Everybody who is commenting here should not comment on the merits of the content dispute; such contributions may be removed as out of scope.  Sandstein  17:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)