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Christian terrorism

Editors involved in this dispute

1. Tryptofish (talk · contribs) – filing party
2. Bryonmorrigan (talk · contribs)
3. Collect (talk · contribs)
4. Jytdog (talk · contribs)
5. The Four Deuces (talk · contribs)
6. Bladesmulti (talk · contribs)

Articles affected by this dispute

1. Christian terrorism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Other attempts at resolving this dispute that you have attempted

• Talk:Christian terrorism#Motivation of Christian terrorists and following talk sections.
• Talk:Christian terrorism#RfC
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 48#Christian terrorism
• Also, Talk:Christian terrorism#Would mediation help?, where three of us, sufficiently many to represent all views in the dispute, have already agreed that mediation is worth trying.

Issues to be mediated

Primary issues (added by the filing party)

Editors have two conflicting views about the available source material for defining "Christian terrorism" and for determining how widely or narrowly the term has been applied to specific individuals or groups. This debate concerns scholarly sources; we all agree that popular sources are comparatively imprecise. The two views:

1. The preponderance of reliable scholarly secondary sources define Christian terrorism specifically as a form of religious terrorism. Under this definition, terrorists who are Christian but who are motivated by factors other than Christian scripture or theology are not Christian terrorists, but instead racists or political terrorists. The academic literature on this subject is not as developed as that about Islamic terrorism, but is settled, and this typology is established as mainstream scholarship. When editors cite scholarly sources as applying the term Christian terrorism more broadly, either those sources are minority, fringe, or dissenting sources, or the editors are misreading the sources.
2. The available reliable scholarly secondary source material about Christian terrorism is not as developed as that about Islamic terrorism, and although there are some broad areas of agreement in the preponderance of sources, there are still differences amongst expert sources as to how to apply the term Christian terrorism to particular individuals or groups. Some sources limit the typology to terrorists who are motivated only by Christian scripture or theology, while other sources say that Christian terrorists can be motivated by Christianity in the form of "ethnoreligious identity" or other, not strictly theological, factors, and may have complex motives. At present, there is no dominant consensus amongst expert sources about the latter point. We should treat these sources as having a variety of views, and editors should not limit the page to those sources that apply the definition of Christian terrorism most narrowly.

Some editors perceive the sources as #1, whereas other editors perceive the same sources as #2. The problem we are having is that editors who feel one way have not been able to change the minds of editors who see it the other way. We have all looked at the same sources, and yet opinions seem entrenched. We hope that a structured discussion will help us to sort out how to correctly understand the sources, in this difficult topic area.

Additional issues (added by other parties)

• Additional issue 1
• Additional issue 2

Parties' agreement to mediation

1. Agree. Tryptofish (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Agree Jytdog (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Agree Collect (talk) 23:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
4. Agree TFD (talk) 01:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
5. Agree Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 14:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
6. Agree Bladesmulti (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: The RfC has been suspended so that this mediation may take place. If the mediation is rejected due to anyone failing to agree to the mediation, that RfC may clearly then take place. I hope there will be no refusals to the mediation, however. Collect (talk) 14:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

• I thank Collect, TFD, and Jytdog for their prompt agreement. TransporterMan, I'm dope-slapping myself for not noticing that rule about the RfC, sorry! For what it's worth, it seems to me that, although Bryon's participation here would be helpful, his views would likely be well-represented here by some of the editors already in agreement, and so this mediation process would likely be very productive with or without his active participation. Consequently, what he decides probably has less to do with whether the mediation would be useful, than with what will happen with the RfC, and by extension, whether the requirements for mediation can be satisfied at this time. It's up to Collect, as author of the RfC, and TransporterMan, on behalf of MedCom, and not me, to decide how to proceed if Bryon declines to take part, but I hope that we can find a way to make mediation work in any case. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
  • My concern is that Bryon has very specific and strong views, and that mediation in his absence would likely result in a very short lived series of compromises. I also note that his views are somewhat stronger than the editors here who come closest to representing his views. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Those are understandable concerns. At the same time, you may, perhaps, want to consider whether his participation in the RfC would be any more productive than his participation in mediation. I would imagine that a consensus in mediation would be supported by the four editors here, and I will personally commit to supporting such a consensus from here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Since Bryonmorrigan has not posted any edits since before he was notified of the request, we should not assume he has rejected mediation. His last posting was 00:43 23 October. Perhaps someone could notify him by e-mail. TFD (talk) 13:44, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Bryon has now gotten here, and has agreed, so we seem to have all editors in agreement to have mediation. Hopefully, we are now good to go. Thanks everyone! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• I want to let MedCom, as well as the other editors here, know that I will be away from editing approximately Nov. 14–20. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Decision of the Mediation Committee

• Chairperson's Note: I see that there's an RFC pending. I'm afraid that it can't be both ways, this application fails prerequisite for mediation number 8, "No related dispute resolution proceedings are active in other Misplaced Pages forums" since RFC's are considered a DR proceeding. By rights, I ought to refuse this at this time, but I'll leave it open for another 24 hours or so to see whether Collect's acceptance might indicate that he's willing to drop the RFC. Understand that I'm not pushing that, I just giving you all a chance to decide which way you want to go. If the RFC continues, you can still come back here or to DRN if the RFC doesn't work to solve the dispute. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 01:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

RFC withdrawn. I would ordinarily go ahead and accept this case at this point and put out a call to the Committee for a member to mediate it since a clear majority of editors have already accepted, but Collect has indicated that the RFC will be refiled if Bryonmorrigan does not accept mediation, which refiling will cause the request to be rejected, so I'm going to let the acceptance/rejection period run until he either accepts, rejects, or the period expires at the end of the day on October 30, 2014 (which will be deemed a rejection by him, but the case will still be accepted due to the number of editors who have accepted prior to that point; if the RFC is refiled after that point, however, the acceptance will probably be revoked and the case rejected). For the Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Accept. This case is accepted for mediation. A call will now be put out to the Committee for a mediator to take the case. Please continue to watchlist this page for updates. For the Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:16, 27 October 2014 (UTC) (Chairperson)

Opening remarks and roll call

My apologies on behalf of the Committee for the long delay in processing this case. Thank you all for your patience.

I've read the request page as it appears thus far and I offer my compliments to Tryptofish for providing a well formed request. In addition I salute all of the participants for stepping forward and agreeing to mediation in spite of prior differences and significant discussion. The process of consensus on Misplaced Pages can sometimes be drawn out and frustrating. It can become heated and positions may become entrenched. My goal here is to facilitate an environment and process whereby everyone can relax a little bit and explore the possibility of common ground, compromise and potential consensus. Keep in mind that even if we are successful not everyone will get everything they want.

I remind everyone that this is a content only forum and that we will not be addressing any behavioral issues nor will we consider the past actions or editing of any participant. Our sole focus will be to assess where we are now and where we want to be. So please keep your thoughts and discussion moving forward and I thank you in advance for your continued civility and respectfulness to all the participants. Even those that disagree with you. :-)

This case is now open. Tryptofish, Jytdog, Collect, TFD, Bryonmorrigan and Bladesmulti can you please indicate that you are ready to proceed? Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

1. ready. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
2. Collect (talk) 22:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC) with a short hiatus at Thanksgiving for sure
3. Yes, I'm here and ready (albeit I could use a good night's sleep after my airplane journey earlier today). Thank you to Keithbob for the kind words, and for taking on this voluntary task, and thank you to all the other editors who agreed to participate. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
4. Red 5, standing by. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 23:04, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
5. Ready. TFD (talk) 02:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
6. Ready. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Core of the dispute

Great! Everyone is here. Certainly we will give some consideration for the Thanksgiving holiday. Now. I'd like us to agree on the core of the dispute. My understanding is that the dispute is over the scholarly definition of the article's subject: Christian terrorism.

• Some editors have a narrow definition of the term and maintain that the article should only include information about terrorism performed by Christians who were motivated by Christian scripture or theology. In their view, this narrow definition is the predominant view of scholars on the subject.
• Other editors have a broader definition of the term and maintain that the term also includes acts of terrorism motivated by "ethnoreligious identity" or other not strictly theological factors. In their view there is no clear consensus amongst the scholarly sources as to the narrowness of the definition and therefore the article should represent the entire spectrum of scholarly views.

Is this a fair assessment of the core of the dispute? If not, what would you add or change? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Rather than seek a "scholarly definition" (In short, I demur that the only issue is the "scholarly definition of 'Christian terrorism', as we seem in concord that no single definition of that ilk exists) I would suggest the issue is how to delimit the topic for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, including the historical period to be used, and the definition of "Christian terrorism" to be consistently used for all the topics therein. Right now, we have no solid basis for historical delimitation, and no consistent definition which is applied uniformly. If we allow every example where a "Christian" of any sort has engaged in "terrorism" of any sort, we will end up with a totally meaningless and massive article for our readers. When we start discussing this, I would suggest we limit the topic to post-WW I, and to examples where an organized group of some sort engages in terrorism for the specific purpose of advancing a theological objective associated with Christianity. I would trust discussion would result in some sort of rational delimitation of the area to be covered. Collect (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I would hope that the mediation process could begin with examining the question of how to define "Christian terrorism" – not as editors would define it, but as reliable scholarly secondary sources do. After that, I suspect that editors may want to discuss whether or not to include specific examples on the page, and I would welcome discussion of anything and everything that participating editors would raise in that regard. But I think that the discussion of definition needs to come first, because that, in turn, determines scope. In regard to specific examples, Collect just raised the possibility of setting a post-WW I timeframe, and that seems to me to be at odds with the content currently on the page, although it's true that most early examples have been non-controversial whereas most later examples are controversial.

I tried very hard in my request for this mediation to accurately capture the two kinds of definition, and I stand by the way I stated it there. So, in the numbering I used, and that was also used by Keithbob in his briefer summary, number 1 is a narrower definition (or really a narrower application of the definition), and number 2 is a broader one. More importantly, the disagreement is whether there is an established consensus in the source material for number 1, or whether no such consensus exists in the source material. If such a consensus exists, then sources that adhere to number 1 represent the scholarly mainstream, and sources presented by editors as adhering to number 2 are either minority views or are being misread by editors. Logically, then, we should ask what is the evidence in the source material for such a scholarly consensus. I think such evidence could take two possible forms:

1. Statements in the sources that apply the definition broadly, that they acknowledge that they are minority or dissenting views. For example, if someone like Jeurgensmeyer says something like: "Although what I am saying here goes against most scholarship, I am making this argument because of xyz."
2. Statements in sources that actually delineate the existence of mainstream and minority views, identifying the narrow application of the definition as an established mainstream, and broader applications of the definition as a minority position.

If we get such evidence, then we would have good reason to believe that a narrower application of the definition is what should guide inclusion or exclusion of material on the page. But I want to point out that we need to be careful in identifying the second kind of evidence, so as not to fall afoul of WP:NOR. We need to be careful to determine that the source is identifying a mainstream, rather than editors reading it into the source without the source really saying it. Specifically, a scholarly source that says something like: "A review of all the evidence clearly shows that my narrow analysis is correct and that other person's broader analysis is mistaken" is exactly the kind of argument that happens in academia all the time, but does not constitute evidence that such a consensus exists, merely that the argument exists. We need evidence that the sources recognize such a consensus, because otherwise we would have original research by editors claiming the existence of the scholarly consensus. I think that would be a good starting point for this mediation discussion.

By way of illustration, an example of a page where there is a consensus about mainstream and minority amongst reliable sources can be seen at Cancer#Alternative medicine. An example instead of where competing theories have roughly coequal status in the source material is at Neural coding#Coding schemes. Of course, those pages are about science, whereas here, we are dealing with a less established and more subjective source material. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:03, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That is a good summary, but I think there are as many views as there are editors. I prepared a summary of what I think, and ask that each editor be allowed to present in a separate section what they think. On a positive note, most of these editors have come across one another in other articles and this is not the typical dispute of two groups of editors who are in broad disagreement with one another throughout the project. So I think all of us are assuming good faith. TFD (talk) 04:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Bryon's Discussion (Separated solely due to length, to avoid confusion):

My take is that "Christian Terrorism" should include all groups that INCLUDE an objective that is aimed at: (1) advancing the Christian religion through terrorist means (i.e., "forced conversion"); (2) promoting the idea of Christians combating non-Christian religions through terrorist means (i.e., "Christian violence against Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc."); or (3) advancing some kind of Christian/Biblical objective through terrorism (i.e., "bringing about the 'end times'" or something"). I don't think anyone here is going to argue that an agenda of either 1, 2, or 3 is not necessarily an example of "Christian Terrorism". I believe the main issue comes out when: (A) people argue that Group X cannot have more than one ideology; or (B) people propose the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.

(A) is often used as a way to "negate" the existence of "Christian Terrorism", and/or remove certain groups, on the basis that Group X also has a "nationalist" or other political agenda, in addition to a "Christian Terrorist" one. I believe this is completely absurd, as it proposes the idea that all groups have a single agenda, and can only be defined under that single agenda. To use the Nazis as an example, this kind of reductionist thinking would have one believe that the Nazis can only be defined based on one of their ideologies. Under this thinking, Editor X could reduce their ideology to their "National Socialism" economic positions. By doing this, the reductionist would then say that they cannot be included in a definition of "Anti-Semitic" groups, because their main ideology is "National Socialism" economic positions, and "Anti-Semitism" is not included in those specifically economic agendas. It's just silly. Just as any political organization can have religious, economic, and governmental positions, so can terrorist organizations, which are essentially just political organizations supported by violence anyways. I see this agenda proposed by both: (I) editors who wish to "defend" Christianity by proposing the idea that only non-Christian religious groups (i.e., "Muslims") can be "terrorist"; and (II) editors who dispute the existence of ANY religion-based terrorism.

(B) is often used by "drive-by" editors, claiming that "terrorism" cannot be "Christian" because of certain Christian scriptures or teachings. This argument is rarely presented by the more experienced editors, but they occasionally "egg on" the instigators.

I would further argue that inclusion on this page should be based upon any group meeting any of the following elements:

• Forced conversion to Christianity
• Advocation of terrorism aimed at promoting a Christian agenda
• Advocation of terrorism aimed at non-Christians because of the victims' religious identity
• Limitations upon membership in a terrorist organization solely to Christians

Obviously, not every group fulfills all 4 of the above elements, but if RS establishes that Group X engages in any of them, and/or RS specifically describes the group as "Christian Terrorist" or engaging in "Christian Terrorism", then they should be included under the definition of "Christian Terrorism". If there is dispute as to whether the group fulfills those criteria, and that dispute is backed up with RS, then a statement(s) describing that dispute can be added to the discussion of that group (as opposed to the some editors' attempts at deleting any mention of any group where there is a dispute).

I would also agree to Collect's proposed limitation of examples to recent history, as I think discussions of whether Charlemagne's beheadings of Saxons who wouldn't convert to Christianity, the genocide against Native Americans, and even the Goa Inquisition (examples that would not normally be referred to as "terrorism" in modern language) would qualify as "Christian Terrorism" would be counter-productive. (Just as The Holocaust is not usually referred to as "terrorism".)

Hopefully, that was coherent.  ;) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I just want to clarify what you are saying. Do you mean that the war between the U.S. and Ba'athist Iraq was an example of religious violence? Both presidents claimed to be religious. TFD (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

(1) I don't see how a conventional war could be considered "terrorism"; (2) I don't know much about what Saddam Hussein may have claimed, but I don't remember even "W" claiming that Christian scripture "justified" that conflict. Maybe you misunderstood my last paragraph, as I was specifically agreeing to Collect's proposed limitation against bringing up distant historical conflicts and applying the term "terrorism" to them. (I've attempted to clarify that statement, as it did appear a little "clunky" on second read.) As neither the USA, nor the former government of Iraq were "terrorist organizations" under any RS definition of the term, your comparison falls apart pretty quickly. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 00:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about motivation for violence, but it is alright if you do not wish to address that example. In any case I disagree with Collect on history. Mainstream sources identify historical examples of Christian terrorism (in the Crusades, the Gunpowder Plot). That makes sense though since the mentality of contemporary religious terrorists is pre-modern, and explains why it died out in Europe but has had a revival in the Islamic world. TFD (talk) 03:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand your position, based on what you've argued in the past, compared to above. You think the Crusades and Gunpowder Plot were acts of "Christian Terrorism", but NOT any of the violence in modern Northeastern India where Christian groups use terrorism to force people to convert to Christianity and scare them into staying away from temples, assassinate Hindu religious leaders, plot to blow up temples, etc., all in order to establish independent Christian states? --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:17, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You link your comments to "cognitive dissonance." That is sarcasm meant to deride my reasoning, and I would like to ask you to avoid that approach. I find it irritating and it is not persuasive. Please remove the link.

If their motivation were to set up a theocratic state run on (what they consider) Christian principles, then they would be religious terrorists. OTOH, if they want to set up a state for their ethnic group, then the motivation would be ethnic/nationalist. These groups, while majority Christian, include Marxists, atheists, and people of different religions, as well as Christians who are not particularly religious. There is no indication they would welcome Christian immigrants outside their ethnic group. That sets them aside from the Gunpowder Plots, which were entirely made up of devout Catholics who thought that England should return to the nation of Catholic Christendom.

So we return to this issue: Is our disagreement over the definition of Christian terrorism, or is it about which groups fit the criteria?

TFD (talk) 15:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I think if you believe that the Crusades fit the definition of "terrorism", "Christian" or not, then yes, we disagree about the definition of "Christian Terrorism". And frankly, I would be very surprised if you were able to present RS showing that the general scholarly opinion is that the Crusades were "terrorism", much less "Christian Terrorism". Furthermore, the arguments that you make against the Northeastern India groups completely fall apart when you compare them to the Crusades. You claim that because the NE Indian groups seek ethnic nationalist goals, IN ADDITION TO their Christian goals, then they cannot be considered "Christian Terrorist"? Are you not aware of the many economic, political, etc., goals of the Crusades? I mean, this is basically World History 101, and I don't think I'm presenting anything that isn't widely known. Heck, in the Fourth Crusade, you had Christians fighting against Christians for Pete's sake! And are you seriously arguing that every. single. person. involved in either side were either Christian or Muslim, and both sides were 100% of either? There were no Jews involved? No Christian-on-Christian violence? No Atheists, Agnostics, or otherwise non-believing people who just happened to see that there were non-religious goals that they could realize through participation in the Crusades? (And you wonder why I linked to "cognitive dissonance"?) Bottom Line: The fact that a group has more than one ideological goal is immaterial. A group can be both "Maoist" (or "Nationalist", or "Socialist", or "Racist", etc.) and "Christian", and the fact that a tiny percentage of Maoist Atheists are able to overlook that Christian agenda, because they support an organization's other goals, does not make those goals disappear. Your argument is a fundamentally illogical position. It's like when people claim that slavery was not a cause of the American Civil War, because other causes existed...or that the Confederacy cannot as a whole be held to be "pro-slavery" because there were black soldiers who fought on the side of the Confederacy. A tiny exception does not negate a group's stated goals and actions. The RS is clear, and overwhelming. Your personal WP:OR on the subject is immaterial. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 16:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I did not say the Crusades were Christian terrorism, but that there was Christian terrorism "in the Crusades". Gus Martin and other writers have mentioned this, and he has an entire seciton on the Crusades in his book Essentials of Terrorism, p. 140. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that some individuals committed acts of terrorism based on their religious beliefs. But there is general agreement that the Crusades were an example of religiously motivated violence. The fact they killed fellow Christians is a red herring. You consider the Northern Ireland conflict religiously motivated, yet both sides are Christian. The Christians killed by the Crusaders were not Catholic and it is probable that the Crusaders were not aware they were Christians, or did not consider them to be such.

Certainly a group can be both Maoist and nationalist. The issue is what is their motivation for terrorism. Does their group include non-Maoists do they lay down their weapons when independance is acheived, or do they attack fellow nationalists and only lay down their weapons once socialism is achieved? If the Indian goverment suddenly became Maoist, would they pledge allegiance to it?

In your U.S. example, the question is what was the motivation of the South. Individual motives may vary, but when they form a group, the group itself has objectives, regardless of the individual objectives. So fascist, socialists, communists, Catholics, Protestants and atheists may differ on what an independant Ireland would be like, but they come together as a group to pursue a joint objective - the independence of Ireland.

Odd btw that you would reject my example of the Iraq War because war is not terrorism, then introduce the U.S. Civil War. But if you want to explore the analogy, the objective of the Civil War was the independance of the South, even if supporters had different views. Simiarly the North refused to recognize the CSA because it thought the CSA should remain part of the USA. " If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. " (Lincoln, 1862) Once the issue of independance of the South was settled, the war would end.

But we are digressing. Are you agreeing that the motivation must be religious? If so then there is really only one definition and we are in agreement on it.

TFD (talk) 19:17, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

To address these issues, I will separate them:

TFD: "Are you agreeing that the motivation must be religious?"

Bryon: I am agreeing that A motivation must be religious. If the entire organization has a distinctive religious agenda, even if combined with other political agendas, then that organization meets the definition. Most organizations have more than one agenda, or combine a variety of political positions into that agenda, while still holding all of those positions. A group can be both "Maoist" and "Nationalist", just as it may be both "racist" and "anti-Communist", or in this case, "Ethnic Separatist" and "Christian Terrorist". I really don't see what the problem is, here...

TFD: "Odd btw that you would reject my example of the Iraq War because war is not terrorism, then introduce the U.S. Civil War."

Bryon: I was only using it for a discussion of logic, not as an example of "terrorism". The point was that the issue of slavery was a significant part of the motivation, but not all of it, but most RS has no problem with describing it in that fashion.

TFD: "You consider the Northern Ireland conflict religiously motivated, yet both sides are Christian."

Bryon: You are confusing me with someone else. I have repeatedly stated that I am woefully uninformed in regards to that issue, and therefore have opted out of discussing it. Any contributions to that issue that I would have would be based on watching movies. LOL.

TFD: "I did not say the Crusades were Christian terrorism, but that there was Christian terrorism "in the Crusades"."

Bryon: Well then I apologize. I misread that sentence as saying that the entirety of "The Crusades" was "Christian Terrorism" on the part of the Crusaders. You can then understand why I felt that was ridiculous, correct?

TFD: "The issue is what is their motivation for terrorism."

Bryon: Well, I think that is best viewed when compared with other Northeastern Indian ethnic separatist terrorist organizations. For example, the All Tripura Tiger Force fights for many of the same ethnic separatist goals, but without the goal of a Christian state. As the BBC in 2000 stated, comparing the two groups, "The NLFT is larger and better armed. It says it is fighting not only for the removal of Bengali immigrants from the tribal areas, but also for the tribal areas of the state to become overtly Christian. The NLFT has warned members of the tribal community that they may be attacked if they do not accept its Christian agenda." . So basically, the ATTF is simply ethic separatist, but the NLFT is both separatist and Christianist.

Like I keep saying, I really don't understand what the "problem" is here. If a terrorist organization was killing people who would not convert to Islam, and openly stating its intent to create a Muslim state...but also happened to be Communist, I don't think anyone would be like, "I'm sorry, but you can only refer to them as 'Communist Terrorists'." You seem to like the phrase, "religiously motivated violence". Well, how about the following:

"...this article treats three cases of non-state armed actors that explain their actions as being motivated by Christian beliefs and aimed at the creation of a new local society that is guided by religion: the National Liberation Front of Tripura, ..."

That's from the Adam, de Cordier, Titeca, and Vlassenroot, peer-reviewed journal article that is cited as a reference. I've also pointed out numerous Indian sources which even specifically use the term "Christian Terrorist". These groups are largely ignored in the West, so it's not surprising that there's not a lot of non-Indian RS on the subject. But that's no reason to let this group "off the hook", as it were. Answer this question, if you please: "Do you think that 'Christian Terrorism' exists currently anywhere in the world?" --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 21:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, again, most of these authors discuss nationalist violence, then state that national identity can have ideological, religious or racial dimensions, which form sub-groups. One author refers to it as "religious communal terrorism", which is a sub-category of communal (or nationalist) terrorism, which is distinct from religious terrorism. And to be clear, no one referred to the IRA as "Communist terrorists", even though they were officially Marxist at one time. Because their objective was the re-unification of Ireland, not world revolution, and they accepted non-Marxists and of course were able to abandon Marxism when it no longer met their objectives.

I am sure Christian terrorism exists and agreed that the Maronite Monks were Christian terrorists. However, religious terrorism has been rare in the past few centuries and only made a comeback in the 1980s "Fourth Wave" that followed the Iranian Revolution and even then only in the Islamic world. Unfortunately, there is little more than passing mention of Christian terrorism in sources. Of course Christians commit terrorist acts too, but more often in the name of nationalism or left or right ideology. More significantly, they hold the power in the world and are able to carry out violence through states, which is not normally considered terrorism. It's like my saying that rich people are less likely to beg than poor people. It does not mean rich people are better, just that they have better ways of raising small sums of cash.

TFD (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Core of the dispute part 2

These are good posts with valuable insights and information but we are getting off track here. Which is easy to do. What I want to accomplish first is to set down and agree upon the core of the dispute. Something we can refer to periodically that will keep us on point. What I'm looking for is a concise summary of the dispute encapsulated in a few sentences or a single paragraph. The summary should delineate in general terms what are the parameters for this mediation. Please keep in mind that even agreeing on a summary or defining the core of the dispute will require some compromise and consensus building. This is because there will always be nuances or related aspects of the dispute that some participants want to include which others do not see as important or germane to the discussion. So the purpose of creating a 'core of the dispute' statement is to align ourselves in agreement as to why we are here and what the limitations and parameters of this moderated discussion should be. So in this first stage of mediation we are not substantiating or arguing our respective positions (mine being neutral) but rather agreeing on what the disagreement is about. To put it in more positive terms. What is the issue(s) that we hope to resolve in this mediated discussion? With this in mind could someone please propose an amended or replacement version of the summary I submitted?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

from my perspective, Tryptofish said it concisely and fairly in his initial request for mediation. Jytdog (talk) 20:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

While I understand the first alternative, I am having difficulty understanding the second. How broad is it? TFD (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

TFD, I guess I'm starting to become confused, but which two alternatives are you referring to? I'm guessing that you are referring to "1" and "2" in my original request statement, and as subsequently summarized by Keithbob. If that's what you are asking, then I guess one way to think about it is that "1" is basically what you have been arguing for on the article talk page, and "2" is a broader application of the definition. As for how broad it is, assuming that it is even correct, I think that's very much open to discussion in this mediation process. If, for example, someone sees the sources as going a little broader than "1", but not broader than , that would be exactly the kind of thing I'd be happy to discuss here. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

And, in trying to respond to Keithbob's most recent questions, I guess I want to make a strong plea that the mediation process start with discussing the broadness/narrowness of the definition, and that would be pretty much as you summarized it. In summarizing it, you left out some nuance: it's less a difference between how sources make the definition than in how the sources apply the same definition – but that's not a serious problem with your summary. What I would strongly prefer not to do is to either (1) get bogged down in specific examples at the outset, or (2) base any decisions on individual editor opinions. Thus, where Bryon wrote those four bullet points, my reaction is that we need secondary sources for them, to avoid WP:OR. For that reason, I proposed above that we look for two kinds of evidence in the source material, as to whether there is or is not a mainstream consensus in the sources for the narrower applications of the term. I would really like for us to start with that. If we can come to an editorial consensus about that, then we will have a much easier time dealing with specific examples. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

How broad is it? If someone was raised a Christian but joins the Weather Underground, are they a Christian terrorist? TFD (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

My answer to that question is that it is answered by what the sources say, not by opinions held by me or by anyone else here. As for the Weather Underground, I am unaware of any reliable sources that call them Christian terrorists, but if someone wants to correct me, go ahead. But my more important reply is really what Jytdog said some lines below: we are here for mediation and not to keep rehashing old arguments; we should focus on replying to what Keithbob has asked us. I've replied to Keithbob, that we should start by looking for evidence as to what the consensus is in reliable sources about how to define "Christian terrorism" and how to apply that definition to specific groups. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

If the Weather Underground were trying to establish a "Christian Nation", or engaging in forced conversions to Christianity, you might have an issue. Otherwise, most likely no. But I don't see any of the editors involved in this dispute alleging that someone's mere background as a Christian makes that person's terrorism into "Christian Terrorism", unless the aims or ideological reasons for the terrorism are based in some kind of Christian religious belief. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I find your "if any condition is met" to be quite overbroad, and unlikely to be accepted by any consensus. Further, the "forced conversion" claims so far presented do not show anyone being killed for "failure to convert" and, in some cases, the offended group engages in specific acts of violence against those who do convert ("apostate conversion" commonly found in Hindu and Islamic areas, among others) - I suggest that therefore we start off by deciding that the "if any accusation is made" is insufficient to label any group as "terrorist" from the get-go. Collect (talk) 14:00, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

"At least 20 Hindu tribals, including a senior priest of the Jirania Ashram, Santi Kali Maharaj, have been killed by NLFT rebels in the past two years for disobeying orders." . That's from a 2001 article on the NLFT that is already cited on the page. (Note: The rest of the article establishes that the "orders" deal with forced conversions.) If you want to get into a discussion of the alleged actions of non-Christian groups, I'm sure you can find a more appropriate venue on WP for that. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 16:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Bryon Morrigan, if by Christian state, you mean a state where citizenship is dependant on Christian religion rather than ethnicity, then I would agree with you. But if it merely means a state where citizenship is based on ethnicity, and most members of the ethnic group are Christian, then I would disagree. As for the forced conversions, it depends on the motivation. Are they carried out to extend the Christian religion, do the terrorists carry out forced conversions against their own members who are not Christians, would conversion to Christianity allow one to be a citizen of the proposed state? Or is it just a way for one ethnic group, most of whom are Christians, to terrorize another ethnic group, most of whom are not?

The Naga are a distinct Sino-Tibetan ethnic group, while their neighbors are Indian, and speak unrelated languages. They have been in conflict with their neighbors forever, while their conversion to Christianity came only in the 19th century. Some writers say that religion is the cause of the conflict, but most put it in the context of ethnic conflict.

TFD (talk) 17:28, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

hey guys. we are here for mediation - we all agreed to this. please don't just rehash the dispute here. In my view this process will have the best chance of working, if each of us tries to answer the mediator's questions as best we can, and then steps back and lets the mediator do their thing. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

It looks like Bryon Morrigan is arguing that the groups he wants to include meet the first definition, so it could be the dispute needs to be re-stated. TFD (talk) 19:19, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

my reading, is that Bryon is saying if a group does any one of those four things (and not all four are "religious" but include notions of identity), they come in. It is another way to state the broad idea of #2. It is my understanding that you, TFD, have been saying that only if the group's overwhelming motivation is religiously christian, should they be defined as christian terrorists; that is what #1 is. Do I have your interpretation wrong? Jytdog (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course. Byron Morrigan wrote, "You claim that because the NE Indian groups seek ethnic nationalist goals, IN ADDITION TO their Christian goals, then they cannot be considered "Christian Terrorist". But I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the goal of their terrorism is nationalist. As nationalists, the Naga group will stop when they achieve independence. If they were religious terrorists, they would stop when they had converted the world to their version of Christianity. We appear to be in agreement that the goal of Christian terrorists is religious, but disagree about whether specific groups meet that criterion. TFD (talk) 21:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'd like to offer a suggestion to Keithbob, partly on the basis of my experience with these discussions, and sort of from the Department of Herding Cats. Perhaps at some point you may find it necessary to "hat" discussions that are going off-point. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Core of the dispute part 3

OK folks, please stay focused. Step 1 is to identify the core of the dispute (not every side issue --just the core issue). Our working model is this case summary:

• Editors have two conflicting views about the available source material for defining "Christian terrorism" and for determining how widely or narrowly the term has been applied to specific individuals or groups. This debate concerns scholarly sources; we all agree that popular sources are comparatively imprecise. The two views:
  • The preponderance of reliable scholarly secondary sources define Christian terrorism specifically as a form of religious terrorism. Under this definition, terrorists who are Christian but who are motivated by factors other than Christian scripture or theology are not Christian terrorists, but instead racists or political terrorists. The academic literature on this subject is not as developed as that about Islamic terrorism, but is settled, and this typology is established as mainstream scholarship. When editors cite scholarly sources as applying the term Christian terrorism more broadly, either those sources are minority, fringe, or dissenting sources, or the editors are misreading the sources.
  • The available reliable scholarly secondary source material about Christian terrorism is not as developed as that about Islamic terrorism, and although there are some broad areas of agreement in the preponderance of sources, there are still differences amongst expert sources as to how to apply the term Christian terrorism to particular individuals or groups. Some sources limit the typology to terrorists who are motivated only by Christian scripture or theology, while other sources say that Christian terrorists can be motivated by Christianity in the form of "ethnoreligious identity" or other, not strictly theological, factors, and may have complex motives. At present, there is no dominant consensus amongst expert sources about the latter point. We should treat these sources as having a variety of views, and editors should not limit the page to those sources that apply the definition of Christian terrorism most narrowly.
• Some editors perceive the sources as #1, whereas other editors perceive the same sources as #2. The problem we are having is that editors who feel one way have not been able to change the minds of editors who see it the other way. We have all looked at the same sources, and yet opinions seem entrenched. We hope that a structured discussion will help us to sort out how to correctly understand the sources, in this difficult topic area.

So far Tryptofish and Jytdog have endorsed the above summary. My question to the other participants is: Do you also endorse this summary? If not, please propose specific changes or additions that would allow you to endorse this summary and adopt it as the core of the dispute. Thanks. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:46, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

AFAICT using Questia etc., no "scholarly sources" support the second position. Blackwell does not support number 2. Hicks (OUP) specifies "The challenge is to identify such persons as religious terrorists without suggesting that others with that religious affiliation are also terrorists." Havel  : "Terrorism is terrorism. There is no Islamic, Jewish, or Christian terrorism. " Christian Century: "The religious adjective doesn't tell us much. Pamela Taylor, a Muslim activist in Cincinnati, argues, "The idea of Christian terrorism is ludicrous, in terms of theology, just like the idea that Islamic theology is responsible for terrorism is also ludicrous." , etc.

The Islamic terrorism article is primarily devoted to explaining that Islam is not an intrinsically terrorist religion, and then appends a short list of examples where the specific acts are all in the specific context of promoting "jihad" where no such parallel nexus connects the examples in the current article on Christian terrorism. Using a parallel construction would result in the removal of most of the current "examples" of "Christian terrorism" at issue. Collect (talk) 16:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• As I've said earlier, I agree with Keithbob's assessment of where the mediation discussion should start (and I will be interested in a mediated discussion about the kinds of evidence that might differentiate between the two possible understandings of the source material). If I understand Collect's reply correctly, Collect will argue that the second possible understanding of the source material is incorrect, but is not arguing that we must not have a discussion about the two possible interpretations. And per Collect, as another type of evidence for us to consider, I will be happy to offer sources that do support the second position, at such time as Keithbob might ask for it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that all editors accept the first definition, but disagree over which groups, if any, meet it. In the article talk page, Bryon Morrigan has presented the views of Mark Juergensmeyer, who classifies the terrorist Christian groups in Northern Ireland, India, and other places as religious terrorists, the same category in which he places al Qaeda and says all these groups are motivated by religion.

The dispute then is what weight to provide this classification. If there is general agreement in the literature on his view, then the article should define Christian terrorism and provide descriptions of the IRA and all the other groups he mentions. If however it is a controversial view, then the article should only provide outlines of agreed Christian terrorist groups, then explain why some writers consider the IRA etc. to be Christian terrorists.

TFD (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, I did not "present" Juergensmeyer on this page. I only defended him a couple times as "RS", and did not add the citations to him on the page. I have primarily presented peer-reviewed articles, newspaper stories, and books, focused on India. I haven't really touched the page, apart from the India section, in years. If RS describes Group X as "Christian Terrorism", then it is not up to us to second-guess the RS, particularly in the section on India, as there is not a lot of RS out there on those groups in general, due to the Western world not really giving much of a damn about India. A Western-focused book on terrorism that mentions a group like the NLFT in passing, and describes them as "Nationalist" or "Maoist", should carry much less weight than a book focused on that part of the world that does refer to their Christian ideology. In any case, every single group described by RS as "Christian Terrorism" should be at least mentioned on the page, with the caveat that some mainstream sources may disagree with that classification. (As in, for example, Anders Breivik...) There is a distinct bias against Indian sources and Indian opinions on this subject that has been pretty prevalent on the page for a long time. But back to the original point of this entire "Mediation": If we adopt a criteria for which groups get to be labeled as "Christian Terrorist" on this page, and then apply that criteria to various groups, then we are engaging in exactly the kind of WP:OR that is frowned upon here in Misplaced Pages. If we have sources referring to the group as "Christian Terrorist", "terrorism motivated by Christianity", or any similar phrasing, then those sources trump the personal opinions of any editors, or their personal "favorite" definitions of types of terrorism. The. End. I don't see why we're even having this argument, as it appears to be an attempt to subvert the very principles of Misplaced Pages. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 01:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that any time a reliable source uses the adjective "Christian" to modify "terrorist" or "terrorism", that it fits the criteria for the article? In Gus Martin's book, Essentials of Terrorism, he distinguishes between religious and communal terrorism. He then subdivides communal terrorism into "Ethno-Nationalist", "Religious" and "Ideological". About the second, he identifies it as "conflict between religious groups" and writes, "Many of the world's ethnic populations define their cultural identity parly through their religious beliefs...." (p. 118) If he then truncates the term to "Christian terrorism", are we supposed to assume that despite distinguishing "religious terrorism" (terrorism motivated by religion) and "religious communal terrorism" (ethnic terrorism where religious is part of ethnic identity) that he must mean the same thing?"

The relevant policy is "disambiguation": "the process of resolving the conflicts that arise when a single term is ambiguous—when it refers to more than one topic covered by Misplaced Pages." It would be incorrect to conflate two different concepts in one article without explanation.

TFD (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Martin's book doesn't even discuss any of the Northeastern India groups, so you've inadvertently proved my point about how ignorant Western academia is in regards to these issues. Nobody here is advocating the idea that terrorists who "just happen to be Christian" should be lumped in with Christian Terrorists. But if there is RS describing them as such, and attributing at least part of their ideology to Christianity, then they fit the criteria for being included on a Misplaced Pages page titled "Christian Terrorism". If you disagree with that, then I suggest that you feel that the criteria for this specific page be much more strict, and I cannot see any reason for that, other than bias. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 03:28, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

If reliable sources ignore something, that is a good reason for us to ignore it too. But the source your presented, B.B. Kumar's Problems of Ethnicity in Northeast India, presents it in terms of "ethnic conflict" (hence the title of the book), rather than religious terrorism. And the Western sources that mention it describe it that way too. What is your criterion for Christian terrorism? Is it that the motivation is religion or just that they are Christians who engage in terrorism? TFD (talk) 06:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess you missed where he pointed out that some of these groups are "indulging in forced identity formation not only by ethnic and communist terrorism, but also by religious terrorism by forced conversion to Christianity." (p. 25). These groups have at least one of their motivations in forced conversion. They don't just happen to be Christians. This is just becoming laughable, and I'm sure than any non-biased 3rd party can clearly see that there is plenty of evidence in regards to the NE Indian groups, whether they fit your personal WP:OR definition or not. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:48, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

And where there is equal or greater forced conversion from Christianity, as is found in all the Indian articles, is that also "Christian terrorism"? Sorry - I find that particular position less than convincing if we use it to define "Christian terrorism" ab initio. Sigh. Collect (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

If you want to argue that forced conversions go "both ways", then I would suggest you find an appropriate WP article for that position, and go there. It's extremely off-topic for "Christian Terrorism". (And such allegations are most certainly NOT "found in all the Indian articles", for the record.) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 20:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

In terms of trying to stay focused, I'd like to reply to what TFD said just after my previous comment: "I think that all editors accept the first definition, but disagree over which groups, if any, meet it." Please let me try to expand a bit on that, and see whether or not what I say can help us to agree about what Keithbob asked of us. Myself, I think that all editors accept that the first definition is, at least, part of the accepted definition in the source material – in other words, we are unanimous in agreeing that there are reliable mainstream secondary sources that employ the first definition. Where editors disagree is about whether or not there are also sources that treat the subject according to the second definition (or, at least, apply the definition in the second way), and if so, whether or not those sources are mainstream. And – if I correctly understand what everyone else has said here – nobody has disagreed with the premise that a big part of where we disagree concerns just that. Some editors here disagree with the second definition. But can we all agree that, since some other editors read some of the sources as following the second definition (I'll raise my hand for that one!), we all recognize that a big part of that disagreement is over whether or not that second definition is applicable? You can say that you think that the second definition incorrectly describes the source material – but can you still recognize that some editors agree, to varying extents, with the second definition, and that is a big part of where we disagree? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

If what Bryon Morrigan says about the Naga terrorism is correct, it meets the first definition. What examples are there of groups that meet the second but not the first definition? If Bryon Morrigan is wrong, and Christianity is merely part of the ethnic identity of the Naga, not a motivation for terrorism, then do we still categorize them as Christian terrorists? Unless we resolve this, we are not going to find a resolution. Incidentally, are there any reliable sources for the second definition? TFD (talk) 02:27, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

As you and I have discussed at the article talk page, there are sources that I think are reliable, and that I think apply the definition in the second way. I've said at the article talk page that I think that there are a number of groups that might not meet the first definition, but that I think that some reliable sources classify them as Christian terrorists; I've named those groups on the article talk page. Do you deny that I (and perhaps some other editors) think those things (whether correctly or incorrectly)? You say: "Unless we resolve this, we are not going to find a resolution." I agree with that completely. I would like for Keithbob to mediate a discussion in which we seek to resolve it. Are there any editors here who do not want Keithbob to mediate a discussion in which we seek to resolve it (in which case, please explain why you agreed to the mediation)? Assuming that we all want Keithbob to mediate a discussion in which we seek to resolve it, then, there we are. That's what this mediation is about. I hope that we can all agree with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Instead of saying "I've named those groups on the article talk page", it would be helpful to be specific. I do not remember a second definition being used before this mediation. TFD (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be happy to name them and discuss them specifically, at the appropriate stage of the mediation, and it is certainly not my intention to be unhelpful. I wonder if part of the difficulty in this discussion arises from differing understandings of how mediation works. My understanding is that Keithbob will direct the discussion, and that, at this point in time, the only thing he is asking of us is to agree about what he calls "the core" of the dispute. Not to discuss it back and forth amongst ourselves, but rather to say, explicitly, "yes" or "no" to his question about whether he has summarized our disagreement correctly. Jytdog and I have agreed to Keithbob's statement of "the core", and I think that Keithbob has been asking TFD, Collect, BryonMorrigan, and Bladesmulti to answer yes or not to that as well (and I note that Additional issues (added by other parties) remains blank). That's why I'm trying to get you and the other editors to address what it is that we disagree about, instead of discussing our individual positions within that disagreement. If you would like, for example, for us to discuss the existence or non-existence of sources that use (or, more accurately, apply) a broader definition, then say to Keithbob that you want that to be part of the core of the dispute – and that would be fine with me. And when Keithbob says we are at that stage of the discussion, I'll be delighted to discuss these things specifically. But not before. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:17, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

In support of including Northern Ireland terrorism, you wrote on the talk page that a source said, "The Northern Ireland conflict is a religious conflict.". Juergensmeyer agrees. And John Hickey says: it is "more a question of religion inspiring politics than of politics making use of religion." That all meets the first definition. TFD (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for quoting some things that I have said, and I will be happy to discuss those things when Keithbob says that it is time to do so. Are you willing to answer Keithbob's question? --Tryptofish (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I believe that there is general acceptance of the first definition, and the dispute is about which groups meet it. TFD (talk) 16:07, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much! That's very helpful. So, it seems that TFD, Jytdog, and I have agreed to accept the "core" of the discussion, and we are waiting on Collect, BryonMorrigan, and Bladesmulti. And again, I promise that I will be happy to discuss specifics when we get to that step in the process. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:16, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I fully agree with TFD that the issues revolve on which groups meet the first definition. We neither have the authority nor power to create a definition not found in a plurality of scholarly journals. I do not back off from the position that the topic should be restricted to modern "Christian terrorism" as primarily secular warfare was pretty much the rule if one goes back far enough. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:23, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd be happy to include a discussion of the time period for the page as part of the mediation discussion. And, assuming that Keithbob agrees, I'm comfortable with construing that comment as an agreement as to the core of the dispute. Happy Thanksgiving, to everyone to whom that applies! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The second definition was "acts of terrorism motivated by "ethnoreligious identity" or other not strictly theological factors." But no editors have claimed that. Rather I said that described the Naga and Irish terrorism, while Bryon Morrigan and Tryptofish said they were indeed religiously motivated. TFD (talk) 03:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

From my perspective, what TFD is saying here is consistent with TFD's stance on the article Talk page - TFD does not acknowledge that the 2nd option has any validity, and does not acknowledge that other editors find it expressed in sources, and has not agreed on the core of the dispute. That is what I see. Jytdog (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed you did make that argument of the talk page, but AFAICT, no one else has. So -perhaps we could treat that dispute separately as a secondary matter. TFD (talk) 06:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I will say it more simply. In my view TFD has not agreed to Keithbob's statement of "the core". Jytdog (talk) 07:30, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Kindly avoid making judgmental posts about others. The purpose of mediation is to find "common ground" and work from there, not to start with the most extreme claims and try to insert them into the resulting consensus. I suggest that any consensus which seeks to include material which has absolutely no connection with trying to advance theological claims is not going to gain consensus here. Let us work from the centre and see what we can include, rather than making any sort of claim that fringe positions must be accommodated here. I assure you that TFD and I are not any sort of "team" on any articles whatsoever, and I suggest you understand that where we strongly agree here is that the "ethno-religious" bit is, indeed, quite WP:FRINGE in any search in scholarly books and journals. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:57, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to say two things at this point in time. (1) It is my individual opinion that the second bullet point correctly describes the source material, and I am prepared to present reliable sources that define Christian terrorism the second way, as well as reliable sources that define it the first (narrower) way, and yet apply it to specific groups in a broader way. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm wrong. But let's please drop this stuff about no editors at all claiming that the second bullet point is the case. (2) Please, let's just all agree to discuss the issues according to Keithbob's outline – and, indeed, not speculate about other editors' motives or about who is on who's team – and enter into a structured discussion about it. You don't have to accept that the second definition is correct or real in order to have a discussion about it (because you can explain in that discussion why you reject the second definition). Unless we have a structured discussion, we will just continue to talk past one another, and we will never reach a consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:02, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

IOW you are arguing about whether the terrorist violence in Northern Ireland is motivated by religion, then claim it does not matter because the two sides are partly identified by religion. Do you at least acknowledge that reliable sources may not necessarily conflate the two? It seems like a fall back position: You think their motivation is religion but even if few sources agree we will say it is Christian terrorism anyway. TFD (talk) 15:42, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be very happy to discuss what you ask me as part of a structured discussion. I have said that I think that the second bullet point correctly describes the source material. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Core of the dispute Part 4

Hi everyone, I hope you all had a nice holiday break. It seems that a number participants are having a difficult time with the second part of the proposed 'core of the dispute'. So how about if we describe the core of the dispute like this:

• Many reliable, scholarly, secondary sources define Christian terrorism specifically as a form of religious terrorism. Under this definition, terrorists who are Christian but who are motivated by factors other than Christian scripture or theology are not Christian terrorists, but instead racists or political terrorists. The academic literature on this subject is not as developed as that about Islamic terrorism, but is settled, and this typology is established as mainstream scholarship. The issues that this mediation wishes to address are: 1) Which groups are included in the above definition? 2) Are there other scholarly definitions which could also be considered and included in the article?

Thoughts? Comments? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:16, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

in my view your first statement of the dispute was more accurate than this... there are two well developed perspectives on this. Jytdog (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Based on my readings of other editor's comments, Jytdog is the only one who is unhappy with the definition. On that basis of course we should address the topic. But I think the main dispute has been whether groups such as the Northern Ireland, Lebanese and East India ones meet the first definition. Some writers on religious terrorism, such as Mark Juergensmeyer say they do, while other writers on terrorism group them under ethnic/nationalist motivation. The other disputed groups are right-wing terrorists who claim to defend Christian culture. TFD (talk) 22:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

i acknowledge that this is a definition you would very much accept, TFD. And I add that there is little to no disagreement among all editors in this mediation that the definition provided in this Part 4 a) is valid; b) has good support in the literature, c) and there are groups that we all agree fit into it. The core of the dispute is that I and other editors also find clear expression of the original 2nd definition in sources and groups that fit into it, and TFD and some other editors do not acknowledge that. The dispute is all about the original 2nd definition. Jytdog (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC) (add "also" Jytdog (talk) 00:04, 2 December 2014 (UTC))

Keithbob, I think that makes it worse. However you parse it, some editors – and, TFD, I agree with Jytdog here – believe that there are reliable sources that define "Christian terrorism" more broadly than as terrorism motivated primarily by Christian religious tenets, or that apply the label "Christian terrorism" to groups more broadly than that, and that these sources are mainstream, and just as much mainstream as sources that define religious terrorism narrowly. The problem we are having in reaching an agreement about the core of the dispute is coming from the insistence of editors, who disagree with that categorization of the sources, that they want to argue right away that they disagree with that categorization. I don't know how to say this any more clearly: You can believe that the second bullet point in the previous statement of the core of the dispute is incorrect – but still agree that this is a question to discuss. Some editors think the first bullet point describes the source material. Some editors think the second bullet point describes the source material. We need to figure out which of those two bullet points really does describe the source material. Please, we need to get on with this! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Trypotfish, can you mention any difference if would make to the article (other than the lead, where the topic is defined) if def 2 were rejected? Are there any groups in the article or that you wish to add that do not meet def 1? Can you explain why with pages of discussion and edit-warring, there has been no discussion or edit-warring over the definition in the lead? TFD (talk) 01:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think that, first, it does make a difference to how we should write the lead, as well as the introductory material that could come after the lead. Consider for example how, yesterday (I looked here first, so I don't know what has changed since then), you and I were starting to agree that the page should move in the direction of how various experts think about the concept of Christian terrorism and how to apply it to examples, and away from the current organization in which we list a litany of examples in ways that imply that editors have decided that those examples already are Christian terrorism, as opposed to examples where an examination of the sources indicates that different experts have reached different conclusions, and in many cases, there simply isn't a unanimous consensus that the particular example really is Christian terrorism. And I agree with you about that! Hurray! But, if you and I go directly to working on that right now, I'm going to say that, for example, Schbley says that numerous groups he talks about are, in his opinion, Christian terrorists, and you are going to disagree with me, and we will be at an impasse again. A structured discussion here will help us get past that impasse, and that would be a good thing. And when and if we get to all those country-by-country examples, it will be a lot easier if we have a consensus either to reject "definition 2" or to accept it, and we have no such consensus yet. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Keithbob - pretty close to the actual issue. Collect (talk) 00:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Am starting to feel hopeless. Jytdog (talk) 01:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Jytdog, I've been through so many discussions that feel this way, that I've learned never to feel hopeless about it! What I hope TFD and Collect will accept is that you and I (and maybe other editors in this discussion) do not think that the summary by Keithbob at the top of Part 4 accurately reflects the source material, whereas TFD and Collect (and maybe other editors) consider the summary to be pretty good. Let's just all acknowledge that we have a difference of opinion here! And we would benefit from a discussion that tries to resolve that difference of opinion. Keithbob, I think that you are creating a needless obstacle by framing the question as the "core". That's because editors have a lot of things that concern them, including Collect's point about time periods, and everyone's points about all the specific examples on the page. Nobody wants to get boxed in, and editors seem to be suspicious of any attempt to delineate this discussion, lest other perspectives be shut out. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Please look back at the top of this mediation page. At #Issues to be mediated, I posted a summary of some things where editors have been disagreeing. And at #Parties' agreement to mediation, every one of you agreed to participate in that discussion. It doesn't mean that you agree with my description of #2, just that you know that I said it and you have your own opinions about it. If you want to shoot #2 down, you will be able to do that. And let's stipulate clearly: anything else editors here want to discuss also, including but not limited to the time period we are considering and any and all specific examples by country, must and will be part of this discussion too. Can we agree that we are here to discuss all of those things, and just get on with it? --Tryptofish (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The argument was about whether to include the groups currently in the article. Do you agree that none of them meet the first definition? TFD (talk) 15:20, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

That would be an absurd opinion to have, as there is plenty of RS establishing that many groups in the article do indeed meet the first definition. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

TFD, I think some of them meet the first definition (example: The Orange Volunteers), and some of them meet the second (example: The IRA). Do you agree that we ought to discuss this, or would you say instead that you are unwilling to discuss it? Bryon, do you agree to discuss it, and do you both acknowledge that the two of you have different opinions? --Tryptofish (talk) 15:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Part 5

Three summaries of the dispute have been proposed. One by Tryptofish and two by me. These have met with only partial acceptance. Would someone like to propose a compromised version that might find universal support amongst all the participants? It could be something as simple as a list of the issues we are here to discuss.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion:

1. Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?
2. What is the time period we should be covering here?
3. Which examples (by country) on the page should stay there, and should any be removed? Or should the ways some of them are presented be changed?

I don't intend that as a complete list. I would welcome adding more items to discuss, as well as alternative ways to formulate the questions. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:20, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

That seems good. Does anyone question what time period should be used? I always thought one of the comments by experts on the rise of religious terrorism was that it was something from the past that has made a comeback. TFD (talk) 02:18, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I disagree on using a broad construct, which is what I think you are referring to as "#2"? I would suggest, as I did before, that we limit the article to post WW I as avoiding huge problems including, but not limited to, the end of the Ottoman Empire, the end of the Russian Empire, etc. I would therefore also suggest that we remove all sections dating before WW I, as well as any where the claim is not made by a majority of scholars that an example is actually "Christian terrorism." Collect (talk) 18:41, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you both. TFD, my understanding is that what Collect just said is the issue with respect to the time period. Collect, I welcome discussing all the issues that you just named, and it seems to me (please correct me if I misunderstand) that everything you just commented on can be discussed as we discuss those three questions. (Again, I believe that Keithbob is asking us to name the questions we want to discuss; giving our views as to the answers to those questions will come subsequently, at a time and in a fashion that Keithbob communicates to us.) If that is something that the two of you can work with, then I hope that Jytdog, as well as BryonMorrigan and Bladesmulti, assuming that they are still interested in the discussion, will also agree, and then we can move on to the next steps. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

i'm good with this. Jytdog (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

TFD's analysis of medieval and difference between terrorist and terrorism is probably correct. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

If there is disagreement on the time period, then I suppose it should be added too. TFD (talk) 03:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

This is good. Some consensus seems to be forming regarding a list of the various we'd like to discuss in this mediation. If there is something missing from the list suggested by Tryptofish then please say what it is and we can add it now and then begin. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:38, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Keithbob. That sounds good. Please let me suggest that we work on the question about time period first, because it is relatively self-contained, and might help direct what we discuss next. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

OK, since I don't see any objections after three days. We'll just move ahead. If there are any additional points that folks would like to add to the above 'summary of the dispute' list over the next few days, please present them here in this thread for ratification by the group. If no additional points are added during the next few days then the three points listed above will stand as the general parameters that define this mediation. I don't want to box anyone in, but likewise I don't want an endless mediation with new topics for discussion constantly being added as the mediation proceeds. So we need to solidify the boundaries of this discussion in advance. If we don't ID our destination in advance we will never know when we have arrived. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:59, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Time Period

Ok, let's begin our discussion of the time period consideration. One editor has proposed that article should be limited to Christian Terrorist events that took place after WW II and suggests that any events that occurred before WWII should be removed. Thoughts and comments on this proposal?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:59, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

• I'll start with the parts that I agree with. I'm fine with saying that, for the remaining parts of this mediation discussion (about definitions and scope), we should focus on what David C. Rapoport has called the "fourth wave" of terrorism, from about 1979 to the present, because that's the time period of nearly all of the editorial disputes. And I'm in agreement that we don't want editors adding not-really-terrorism stuff (The Crusades, Just war, etc., etc.) willy-nilly to the page.
• But in all the time I've been watching the page (now quite a few years), I cannot remember an instance of any editors wanting to add inappropriate historical instances to the page. It just hasn't been a problem. We have another page, Christianity and violence, that covers the historical non-terrorist forms of violence. As for what we do have on the Christian terrorism page, it's the section Christian terrorism#Historical, which has three subsections: the Gunpowder Plot in England, a pogrom in Romania, and some eras of the Ku Klux Klan in the United States. It seems to me that these three instances are amongst the most clearly supported (by sources) of anything on the page. I'm under the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Gunpowder Plot is seen by experts as a sort of original example, a sort of prototype, in the history of Christian terrorism (and the section about it could stand some expanding). I think the page is very narrow in limiting discussions of pogroms only to Romania, where there is the clearest evidence of religious rather than economic motivations. I'm agreeable to any requests for more or better sourcing for the historical section, but I think that there is already more than enough sourcing to say that it should not simply be deleted. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
• I would use WW I as a strong delimiter. Anecdotal instances do not really aid the reader in understanding the topic, and the fact is that most of the historical examples" are really poor -- the KKK was primarily based on economic and racial issues, and not on advancing any Christian theology at all -- and it was anti-Friends and anti-any group which did not seek to restore the prior economic and racial order. The Gunpowder Plot can only be understood in terms of the political power asserted by the Pope at a time when he was a secular ruler. Best to simply use scissors on those marginal sub-topics. Collect (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Rapoport does not use either of the World Wars as a delimiter for religious terrorism; do you have another source for that? I looked for some more sources regarding the Gunpowder Plot and the KKK based on your comment. For the former, here are two sources that strike me as reliable for our purposes, and, respectively, define the Gunpowder Plot as Christian terrorism, and place it as having an historically important role in the emergence of modern terrorism: and . For the KKK, there are also multiple books that identify it as Christian terrorism: , , , , although I'm under the impression that there have been multiple successive appearances of the KKK over time, and some of the specific time periods are considered to be more religiously motivated than others. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
    • The only "strong delimiter", if that is what you require, is 32 A.D. Misplaced Pages, however, allows a consensus to delimit periods of coverage of articles - we do not need a source saying "Christian terrorism did not exist until after WW I" in order for us to agree to using that as a delimiter. The KKK was founded during Reconstruction primarily to retain political power - the number of Jews and Catholics in the South was not an issue of any weight, and the Blacks were indeed primarily Christian. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:11, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
• just to weigh in, in case it is needed; I don't care about this issue. Jytdog (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Are there any WP guidelines that shed light on or give guidance as to how to limit time periods in articles? Is this quote "delimit periods of coverage of articles" a quote from a guideline? It would help us to know what the guidelines say, if anything.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:08, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    • If we do not responsibly set boundaries for an extremely broad topic otherwise, then this mediation is, IMO, doomed. The first act of "Christian terrorism" was Peter chopping off an ear on Maundy Thursday. I also suggest that where there is terrorism by other religious groups (vide the Turkish attack on Malta where Christian defenders were crucified and the Turks were beheaded by the defenders) that we include the full story about the events, and not just focus on "Christian terrorism." Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the article should reflect what writings about Christian terrorism say. To the extent they mention historical antecedents, they should be mentioned. However, I would object to including all the various millenarian movements of the Middle Ages, which modern scholars of terrorism ignore, but conceivably could be viewed as Christian terrorists. TFD (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to reply to a couple of comments in one place here. First, I want to say that I agree entirely with what TFD just said. I agree, first, that the page should not have, added to it, all the Crusades and so forth, but as I noted above, that has never been an issue in the editing history of the page. Consequently, there isn't a need to delete the historical section simply to avoid future spamming of the page (as opposed to for other possible reasons). I also agree with TFD about what is mentioned in the source material. And that seems to me to go to Keithbob's very good question. To my knowledge, there isn't a guideline specifically about defining time periods. But, at the risk of stating the obvious, any consensus we achieve here will need to conform to the core policies of WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. And for me, that points us, again, to what reliable secondary sources say, as opposed to the personal opinions of editors. As I've pointed out above, we have a source that says that the Gunpowder Plot was an important instance of religious terrorism, and another that says that "The beginnings of modern terrorism can be traced back to England and the Gunpowder Plot of 1605." Those can be added to the source already on the page, in which Peter Steinfels calls it "A day to think about a case of faith-based terrorism". I don't see how any reading of, for example WP:DUE, would lead us to completely omit that information. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

The emerging consensus (and relevant WP guidelines) would appear to tell us that the article should be guided by the preponderance of reliable sources rather than an arbitrary time period decided by group of editors. Care and consideration should be given for due weight and if the seeds or beginnings of Christian Terrorism appear to be taking up too much of the article then per WP:SummaryStyle "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own." Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithbob (talk • contribs) 20:31, December 10, 2014 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:50, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

If it's OK with other editors, it's fine with me. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

OK this discussion seems to be winding down. If there are no further comments than on Monday I'm going to move on to the next segment of the mediation discussion. Enjoy your weekend everyone! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and a good weekend to you too. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

OK. I do not see any consensus in this discussion, nor any WP guidelines that indicate we should limit the time period of the events in the article. So we will proceed to the next consideration.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I foresee horrid results if we do not delimit the topic of the article, alas. In general, Misplaced Pages practice is to define what the article is about in the lead. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. is in the MOS, and is not mysteriously hidden anywhere. The first paragraph should define the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being overly specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it. If appropriate, it should give the location and time. It should also establish the boundaries of the topic; for example, the lead for the article List of environmental issues succinctly states the limits of that list. is fairly clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Keithbob, please let me suggest that you anticipate some intensity of discussion in the next phase. I hope that you can structure it so that participating editors are not merely talking past one another. Perhaps you should have each of us direct our comments to you, rather than to one another?? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Collect, Sources on religious terrorism typically refer to the Crusades as an early and the bloodiest example of religious violence. For example, The Path to Salvation Religious Violence from the Crusades to Jihad, and see modern religious terrorism as a throwback to a pre-modern mentality. In a sense it is anachronistic to call it religious terrorism, since the term "terror" in its modern sense derives from the French Revolution and AFAIK there was no study of religious terrorism until the Iranian Revolution. So I think we should explain why scholars consider the Crusades relevant to the subject rather than outline the long history. Readers are free to follow the links and read about them in other articles. The Gunpowder Plot is similarly mentioned in most sources, and I think the article should discuss its relevance rather than its details. And even if some articles have a cut-off date, it is not unusual to mention precursors and influences. TFD (talk) 04:43, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Is "religious violence" the same as "Christian terrorism"? I doubt it - the ancient Aztecs, and, indeed, just about every religious group in history engaged in "violence" including fighting groups with other religions - but most of the time land and commerce were behind the actual fighting. I prefer that we delimit the topic in accord with the Misplaced Pages MOS and not open up an infinite can of worms where the meaning of "terrorism" is not even well-defined for such periods, and totally undefined here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC

Certainly religious terrorism is a form of religious violence. It would be overly restrictive to say we cannot mention religious violence because it is not the same thing. While groups that happened to have different religions have been in conflict, it would not be religious violence unless that is why it was fought. For example we don't generally see the barbarian attacks on the Roman Empire in terms of Christian religious violence - Arian versus Catholic. TFD (talk) 15:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Houston, we have a problem. Unless the preponderance of reliable sources use "terrorism" I shall demur on such a grossly overbroad delimitation for the topic. We can not say every superset of "terrorism" is "terrorism" sans strong sourcing for the claim - which is one reason we absolutely need to delimit the topic as the first step. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The preponderance of sources mention the Crusades. TFD (talk) 16:29, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Time Period (part 2)

OK let's stay on point. We are discussing whether or not the article should be defined as having a specific, limited time period. So far I don't see any consensus for this but just to clarify let's take a straw poll and see where we are at.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• 1) The article should be limited to a specific time period. Please sign below as Support or Oppose:
  • Oppose. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose TFD (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Support as required by MOS which is not "optional". Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose It was not even a matter. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:10, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
• 2) WP:LEAD provides a policy basis for limiting the time period of the body of the article because it says the lead paragraph(s) should "define the topic" and "establish the boundaries of the topic". Please sign Support or Oppose
  • Oppose (to the extent that it does not mandate a particular boundary). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose TFD (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Support No local consensus can abrogate the MOS on such a key matter. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Sometimes a few words says everything. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
• 3)Specifically the article should only contain information on incidents and events that occurred after World War II. Please sign below as Support or Oppose:
  • Oppose. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose TFD (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment My suggestion was World War I as being after the end of the Ottoman Empire. I decline to debate something which no one at all suggested and which appears to be a Straw Man argument here. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Whenever we provide historical prevalence, it becomes better for readers and editor. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Signing as mediator with no !vote on any of the above.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I have a feeling that if we keep reopening discussions after they seem settled, this mediation will become difficult to keep on track. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If we do not delimit the topic in a rational manner, I shall decline any further participation. Delimitation is required by MOS and we can not abrogate that with a straight face. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that MOS requires that we delimit it in a particular way. Your participation is of course entirely your decision, but perhaps you may wish to consider how pulling out in this manner will appear later on. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not "requiring" it be delimited "in a particular way" - but it must be delimited or else be a vast morass of strawberry jam. And if you are suggesting actually following the MOS is contrary to reasonable practice, I demur forcefully. Further I point out that making personal asides during mediation is quite contrary to how the process is supposed to work per the pages concerning mediation, and that under no circumstances are mediation discussions supposed to be used elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Or are you suggesting that I have been in some manner "uncivil" here? Elsewise, kindly avoid commenting on the other participants here in any such manner on these or any other pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Collect, my apologies, I mistakenly entered WWII instead of WWI. However, thus far in the entire Time Period discussion I have not seen any participant, except yourself, speak in support of limiting the article's content to any specific time period using either World WarI or II as a demarcation. User:Jytdog has said they "don't care" about the time period issue.User:Bryonmorrigan and User:Bladesmulti do you have any input on this? Meanwhile if anyone who has already cast an !vote feels that their response would have been different if the proposal had been WWI instead of WWII, please let us know.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:12, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I prefer historical point of view as well as the modern. Sometimes there is more content for clarifying the historicity than the prevalence in modern times. Of course we have got content about the events or incidents that is relevant to this subject and happened before world wars. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Any "cover the era from 1 BC on" concept would require coverage of all Christian and anti-Christian violence per WP:NPOV, as if we do not establish a rational delimitation, we will end up with an unholy mess of an article -- the Ottoman material alone would comprise a few hundred thousand words including the Armenian massacres as well as the anti-Ottoman material. Do we really want to follow that route? I am already finding masses of material of Hindu anti-Christian violence which would be needed to make the article conform to NPOV - much is truly horrifying. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I probably should know better than to prolong this discussion, but terrorism directed against Christians is not Christian terrorism, and NPOV does not require a tit-for-tat listing of everything for which Christians might be aggrieved – but it would be an improvement to note briefly that the violence in India has gone both ways, so as not to imply that it had been one-way. The page is about a very atypical and small subset of all persons who call themselves Christian, not about Christianity as a whole, so there is no POV issue of mis-characterizing Christians as a whole. As for the time period, it seems to me that the emerging consensus is to set the time period according to the source material on religious terrorism, as opposed to arbitrarily. And the source material seems to me to go back to the Gunpowder Plot. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

After making the comment above, I did try to note that the violence in India has gone both ways, but it's worth pointing out that, on this contentious page, an IP editor has now reverted that edit: . --Tryptofish (talk) 16:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:NPOV requires that where the "terrorism" is mutual in nature that we cover it in a neutral manner. The Armenian/Turkish issue is a complex one indeed, as is the Israel/Palestine issue, where the definition of "terrorism" is going to be quite complicated. Saying "We will only use facts about Christians killing others and ignoring the killings simultaneously going on the other way would be an intrinsic and blatant violation of the non-negotiable police of "neutral point of view" indeed. Collect (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Example: , which would have to be included per WP:NPOV here. Collect (talk) 00:37, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

can't help but ask this. Collect are you saying that scope of the current article is invalid, ditto Islamic terrorism, Hindu terrorism, Jewish terrorism, and Buddhist Terrorism? Jytdog (talk) 01:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Unless we define the scope of the article, and I note the scope of the article cannot negate WP:NPOV on any articles at all, then we shall certainly have problems. I would note that Saffron terror does include opposing material, Jewish terrorism includes balancing material noting the difficulty in differentiating religious and ethnic issues, and also notes that "Jewish terrorism" was targeted by the Nazis and Goebbels. And the Buddhism and violence article specifically notes that much of the violence was between Buddhist sects and not directed against other religions. Thus your cavil is nicely ill-aimed here -- the articles you cite do, indeed, seek to abide by WP:NPOV and so must this article. Adding: Islamic terrorism has a great deal of balancing material - I did not note this above, but at least half that article is, in fact, balancing material rather than accusations of terrorism and violence, with a great deal of material based on the anti-terrorism Islamic position. Collect (talk) 13:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

you description of an article focused on content that negative about X as "attacking" is invalid. Negative material, NPOV stated, is not "attacking". All these articles are clear splits off a main Terrorism article. Very unhappy. I am not even sure what to do with this. Jytdog (talk) 13:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Every example you give of other "terrorism articles" abides by defining the scope of the article and by following WP:NPOV. Every single one. Nor do any of them devote virtually an entire article to (your word, not mine) "attacking" any sect or religion. The fundamental tenet of NPOV is "balance" and I fail to see how that could make anyone "unhappy." Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the problem is that we have not yet defined Christian terrorism. It would appear POV in the article to describe Phalangist terrorism but not Arab terrorism, which we would do if we saw the conflict in Lebanon as religious. But if it is seen as an ethnic/nationalst conflict, then both groups would be described in a section of the ethnic/nationalist terrorism article devoted to Lebanon. TFD (talk) 02:59, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes the terrorism in Lebanon is still disputed. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

It is clear from the straw poll and the discussions both before and after it that there is no consensus for limiting the time period that the article should cover. As I've mentioned before WP:Summary style gives clear instructions for creating sub articles for large topics. So fears that the article will be too large or its scope will be too big are unfounded. Also, the participants don't agree with the assertion that WP:LEAD provides a policy basis for limiting the time period in the article and I agree. We don't write the article based on the lead. We write the lead based on what the article says. The lead expresses the boundaries of the article because it is a summary of the body. But it does not dictate limitations to the body of the article. In conclusion, the proposal to limit the article to a set time period does not appear to be supported either by WP policy or by the consensus of the participants here in mediation. So I'm going to consider the discussion regarding the time period issue to be closed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 03:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Examples of Christian terrorism currently in the article

Are there any examples of Christian terrorism that currently reside in the article that some editors feel should be removed? If so can we begin by listing them according to country? Then we can discuss them one by one.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 03:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing and sections are more descriptive than they used to be before. There was debate about removing the sections of Lebanon and Peru. Removed almost 1 year ago. Listing them by the country was a better idea. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

How can we make any such decision when we do not even have a real definition of the topic? I would prefer we first define the topic, and then see if various pieces belong in the article. And I would define "Christian terrorism" as "terrorism by Christian groups with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" as a simple start. Collect (talk) 13:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I hope that Collect will be pleased that I agree with him that we need to discuss how the sources define "Christian terrorism" before we will be in a position to discuss specific examples. First things first. Please see my opening statement at the top of this mediation request, as well as the subsequent rewording of it from when we agreed upon the three main issues of the mediation, for the ways in which participating editors disagree about how the sources define the topic, and disagree about how the sources apply their definitions. This will, I expect, be the most complicated portion of the mediation discussion, and I strongly recommend that Keithbob plan on ways for us not to be talking past one another (perhaps by directing all of our comments to Keithbob instead of to one another). --Tryptofish (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

This is good feedback, thanks. So let's define the topic now.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Definition of Christian terrorism

Collect suggests that we define Christian terrorism as:

• Terrorism by Christian groups with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions.

Any comments? suggestions? discussion?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

"Theological positions" sounds awfully vague, and exactly the kind of language that the people who oppose this page's existence would use as a "hammer" to delete it. I would add, at the very least, "...or the spread of Christianity", which would include the groups who engage in terrorism in order to coerce, frighten, or "terrorize" populations into converting to Christianity. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 16:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I oppose "us" defining anything. Obviously, per WP:NOR it's what the sources say that counts, not what editors think. In #Issues to be mediated, I described the two views of the literature expressed by editors on the article talk page. Myself, I think that the second numbered point correctly describes the source material (so that second numbered point would be my answer to Keithbob's question). And clearly, other participating editors disagree. So, I propose that we discuss the question that we agreed to at #Part 5:

"Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?"

--Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Religion is about "theology" and I daresay that if we can not reach a logical definition, then we will end up with strawberry jam for an article. refers to "impose strict religious rules on society, forcibly insert religion into politics, and/or bring in apocalyptic cults." seeks to define religion in general.

MonTREP defines terrorism "In marked contrast, bona fide acts of terrorism are triadic, i.e., they involve three parties or protagonists, the perpetrator(s), the victim(s), and a wider target audience (or audiences)" and distinguishes it from all general acts of dyadic violence. "groups relying heavily on terrorism that seek to smite the purported enemies of God and other evildoers, impose strict religious tenets or laws on society (fundamentalists), forcibly insert religion into the political sphere (i.e., those who seek to “politicize” religion, such as Christian Reconstructionists and Islamists), and/or bring about Armageddon (apocalyptic millenarian cults" which appears the same at the other definition, albeit more verbose.

LawBrain is satisfied with the terse "Christian terrorism is motivated by interpretations of the Bible." which seems a tad short and misses the elements found in the other two sources. So reliable sources would indicate that we limit the "terrorism" to the triad formulation, and the motivation to either be "to impose strict religious tenets on society, insert religion into politics, or to prepare for an Apocalypse" - which is a tad less elegant than simply saying "theology" is the motivation.

I stand by my suggested definition, and would ask what compromises on that language would work. Note if we assert that seeking "the spread of Christianity" is "Christian terrorism" then Albert Schweitzer was a "Christian terrorist" -- that sort of position is wide enough for a herd of elephants. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

When I suggested adding "the spread of Christianity", it was intended to be added to the sentence suggested by KeithBob, which had already specified that it involved "terrorism". I am not aware of Albert Schweitzer participating in terrorism? However, I would admit that your cited suggestion of "to impose strict religious tenets on society, insert religion into politics, or to prepare for an Apocalypse" would seem to "cover" the forced conversion, coercion, etc., elements that I was trying to address. "Theology" sounds so vague to me that it sounds like it would be used by apologists to say it only applies to what could be "proved" to be theologically supported by Christian scripture...which is of course, open to interpretation. For example, one editor might conclude that terrorism is "justified" under Augustine's philosophy, while another might take a more "no murder is ever justified" position, and both would be able to succinctly cite their positions with scripture, and we'd be warring about scripture, rather than simply adding cited examples without commentary or OR. I just feel it's a Pandora's Box. You get what I'm saying? --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 19:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Schweitzer was a missionary who proselytized for Christianity. You have repeatedly counted "proselytization" as "terrorism" AFAICT in the Indian case. Cheers. I suggest we not use "spread of Christianity" in any way as a subset of "Christian terrorism." Collect (talk) 20:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Holding an AK-47 to someone and forcing them to convert is not "proselytism", nor is threatening to rape someone if they won't convert, or threatening to murder people who take part in Hindu religious rituals. Terrorism that is conducted for the purpose of coercing or frightening people into converting to Christianity would seem to be a pretty reasonable example of Christian Terrorism, and I really don't understand why this is a "controversial" position. "Proselytism" is what happens when a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon knocks on your door, or a group of Hare Krishnas dance by, and then ask if you want a copy of the Bhagavad Gita. When it crosses the line into violence or terrorism, it's not just "proselytism" any more. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 03:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Um -- your favourite Hindu sources do not even allege anyone forces conversions at the point of an AK-47. I trust that you would consider the hyperbole as less than helpful here? How many Hindus have been murdered by the way? How many Christians murdered in the same areas? Collect (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Um -- you really should actually be familiar with the sources before making untrue blanket statements. It's not "hyperbole". It's what the sources say. For example, this one says it in the opening sentence, and then discusses some of the murders and what-not. Many of the other sources note similar things. I won't even respond to your questions, as they are absurd and off-topic. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 23:20, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

If we are just going to have each editor say what his preferred definition is, and complain that everyone else's definition is wrong, and go back and forth, back and forth, we could be doing that at the article talk page, as we have been doing for months now. If the mediation process is going to be useful, it needs to be a structured discussion. We need to have a structure here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: the question posed is what changes would work to reach a reasonable compromise if we start with this definition. I would like to work from a starting point now than use seven different starting points <g>. Collect (talk) 22:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Collect's definition is pretty much on the mark, although I think there should be some minor changes. (Christian terrorists for example need not belong to a group.) It is consistent with how experts such as David C. Rapoport, Mark Juergensmeyer and Ayla Hammond Schbley define it. The dispute is about which groups meet the criteria. When I have time (in about two days) I will post definitions from these experts and others. In the meantime, if anyone objects to Collect's statement, could they please provide reliably sourced alternative definitions. TFD (talk) 06:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions yes? Collect (talk) 12:53, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I completely reject any definition that is based only on "theological positions", as being completely at odds with the source material. And, since TFD has cited Juergensmeyer and Schbley as sources for the "theological positions", I will cite those same two authors, along with numerous others, as contradicting the "theological positions". See? We don't even agree on what the sources say. Now, let's create a wall of text in which some of us say "yes it is theological positions" and others say "no it isn't theological positions" and go back and forth until the mediation discussion is closed as "stuck".

This mediation discussion has already agreed that the "core" question for this part of the discussion is:

"Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?"

I object to changing the formulation of the discussion as it goes along. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

This section was, in fact, started by the mediator. Reject it as much as you like. What change in the above definition would you actually propose in compromise? Collect (talk) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I already replied to the mediator, in my first comment in this talk thread. I proposed that we set aside the above definition, and replace it with a discussion of the question: "Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?" I still await the mediator's reply. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Putting it another way, at this point in the discussion, our definition is really something like: Christian terrorism is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" and is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions". --Tryptofish (talk) 16:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting proposal -- but if we say that any terrorism by a Christian is "Christian terrorism" then I find such a grossly overbroad definition to be risible. It is like saying "any violence by a Jew is 'Jewish terrorism'" or the like, or "any violence by a Muslim is 'Islamic terrorism'" etc. If reference to theology, the Bible or anything else which is particularly Christian is not involved, then I submit calling it "Christian terrorism" is not rational. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Then I think that it's fair to say that you disagree with me. Keithbob, can you help us resolve this disagreement? --Tryptofish (talk) 16:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Mediation is the attempt to find compromise - not for someone to say "Mediator, settle this because I do not want to propose any compromise" or the like. In short - that is not Keithbob's function here. He is here to facilitate compromise. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've never said that I don't want to compromise, nor have I ever thought it. The history at the page is that I have been an advocate for compromise. I've never asked Keithbob to "settle this". I've asked him to help us settle this. That's a big difference. All of us agreed previously with Keithbob to address the question "Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?" It seems to me that some participating editors have unilaterally decided that "#2" is incorrect and are trying to make that unilateral decision a fait accompli. And, to Keithbob, I hope that you can see from this discussion thread how easy it is for the discussion to get off track without a firm structure to the discussion. Please hear me when I say that I feel very strongly that we need to have a firm structure for this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Definitions proposed so far

Ok let me try to summarize a bit. We are trying to find a working definition for the title of the article: Christian terrorism. So far……… Collect has proposed:

• Terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions

Bryon Morrigon has proposed:

• Terrorism by Christian groups with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions or the spread of Christianity

Tryptofish has proposed:

• Christian terrorism is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" and is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions"

TFD has said they also are preparing a proposed definition which I can add to this list when it's ready. Meanwhile is there any common ground between these proposals?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not actually proposing that we say that two authors said one thing, and then say that the same two authors said the opposite. I'm saying that we cannot find, that we will never find, a common ground, when we cannot even agree as to what the sources are saying. Until we resolve this:

"Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?"

we are never going to be able to agree about definitions. Never. Never. And we already agreed to discuss that question I have quoted. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

just want to jump in here, as this is the part of the mediation I care about. Keithbob, please know that on the Talk page, what has happened consistently is that the editors here have looked at the same sources and seen different things, exactly with regard to the definition of terrorism. We reached an impasse, and we came here to get help resolving the impasse. Please help us. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: My suggestion is backed by four eminently qualified reliable sources. I suggest that where that many major sources use substantially similar language, that using such language is a valid start, and then see if amendments may work in a compromise. Denying the primacy of the major sources, unfortunately, is not a great way to proceed. Mediation is almost invariably a matter of compromise if one has had any courses in negotiations. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The following comment of mine was moved by me from the section above. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to make some suggestions:

• Let's discuss "Is #2 here an accurate view of the sources, or is it incorrect?" before we attempt to concoct a definition. It's what we previously agreed to do.
• Let's adopt a structure for this phase of the discussion, in which we avoid editors getting into endless back-and-forths without resolution. One possible way would be to have each participating editor to present his views in a designated section, and have discussion of those views separate from it, perhaps like some pages in the processes used by ArbCom.
• Editors including me should be asked to provide evidence of expert sources that define or apply the term more broadly. I'll try to get that together over the next couple of days, and I'd welcome other editors helping with it.
• Editors who believe that there is a consensus in the sources for a narrower definition/application based only on theological positions should provide evidence that this is actually the consensus position of the available sources. Please see what I said here, because I'm going to insist on it, and not accept dodging and weaving about it.

Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

View by TFD

The sources I have seen are consistent with Collect's definition. It seems the dispute among scholars is which groups meet the criteria. If there are other definitions, could editors please present them. Also keep in mind disambiguation - if different sources use the same words to refer to two different things, then we need two different articles. For example, Portland, Oregon, and Portland, Maine, are two different places and each has its own article despite having the same name.

Discussion of view by TFD

Let me note some points on which I see opportunities for agreement. TFD observes that sources often use pretty much the same definition, and yet disagree about how to apply that definition to specific groups. In other words, we can have two sources that state the definition very similarly, and yet source 1 says Group X are Christian terrorists, whereas source 2 says Group X are not Christian terrorists. I agree with that. I would argue, however, that it is WP:OR for editors to say that source 2 is correct and source 1 is incorrect and that we should therefore adopt source 2's classification of groups. I would argue, instead, that all we can do is to cite both sources and note the ways in which they agree and the ways in which they disagree, without taking "sides" in Misplaced Pages's voice. I will also attempt to show in my view that my reading of some of the sources cited by TFD is very different than TFD's reading of the same sources! – something that we will have to figure out. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:40, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

This part of the mediation is about the definition. How we address the dispute about which groups fall under it is best left to another part. TFD (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I understand that distinction, but I was trying to find something where I could agree with you. I will also attempt to show in my view that the separation between definition and application, as it is presented to us in the sources, is not as black-and-white as what you just said to me. And I'll repeat my caution about not engaging in OR by deciding that some sources are "right" or "wrong" because their applications appear to some editors to agree with or contradict their definitions. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The definition serves two purposes: it outlines the topic in the lead of the article and it allows us to determine when different sources using different terms are talking about the same topic and when different sources using the same words are talking about different things. Cronin for example may not use the term "Christian terrorism", but is using the same definition as Juergensmeyer. Again, I agree we should not engage in OR about which groups fit these definitions, but "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." That however is a discussion for another section. TFD (talk) 17:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and thank you for providing a detailed view backed up by sources. I'd like to follow up by asking you two questions about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

First question: In your reading of Juergensmeyer, do you find any place where he describes, in his own words, any aspect of his defining of religious terrorism as being something like a minority or a dissenting view, relative to other authorities on the subject? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Second question: In your readings of Cronin and Rapoport, do you find any places where they discuss what they characterize as something like majority or consensus expert views about defining religious terrorism, contrasted with something like minority or dissenting or fringe views about the definition? I'm asking specifically about that, and not about places where they might say that they disagree with other experts or present evidence that they say contradicts other experts' views. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not see any disagreement between any of the writers on the definition. AFAICT, the writers imply that there is no controversy on the definition. TFD (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

And they all agree with the multiple sources I had already presented - I think we have pretty well established that this is the mainstream definition to work with. Collect (talk) 22:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I asked two very specific questions, and I don't think that either one of you actually answered them. It sounds to me like you are saying approximately that you do not see anything in these sources to indicate that there are opposing "schools" of thought in the scholarship on the subject – and that the available source material from established scholars includes numerous scholars who can be regarded by Misplaced Pages as being more or less equal as regards the due weight we should assign them, as opposed to presenting one subset of experts as mainstream and another subset as minority or dissenting or fringe. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

We each presented sufficient sourcing for a mainstream definition of the term. Gainsaying for the sake of gainsaying will not help as much as if you furnish a dozen or so mainstream scholars providing a substantively different definition at this point. It is not up to TFD or me to do anything more than present reliable and noteworthy sources for the mainstream definition at this point. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Tryptofish, the answers to your two questions are no and no. Juergensmeyer does not say he is using a minority definition and in fact he is not. Cronin and Rapoport do not allude to a minority definition presumably because they were unaware of one. Certainly there are opposing "schools" of thought in the scholarship on the subject. But that opposition has nothing to do with the definition. TFD (talk) 23:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, TFD, for the direct answers, with which I agree (although I will be showing sourcing for some experts criticizing Juergensmeyer). It is helpful to simply provide specific answers based on sources, as you have now done. It's much more helpful than accusing me falsely of gainsaying or comparing me to Monty Python. And I could not agree more that the best analyses are those that are based upon reliable, mainstream sources, which is exactly what I am preparing to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

View by Tryptofish

1. My view of the definition

Some sources define "Christian terrorism" narrowly as terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing Christian theological positions. Other sources define it broadly as terrorism that makes use of Christian language or symbols, and is motivated by any number of factors, including humiliation and alienation. Most sources treat it as including both theological motivations and motivations based on ethnorelgious identity.

There's no simplifying that down to a definition that fits neatly into a single sentence, without engaging in original research. If editors decide to exclude all sources other than those that employ the narrowest definitions, and then use that narrow definition to exclude content about Christian terrorism as identified by other sources, that would violate WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.

Discussion of view by Tryptofish

I actually have very specifically indicated where I agree with you and TFD, and I have given specific reasons for the points where I see things differently. It would be very helpful if, as I did, you would identify those points where you see some opportunity for agreement, as that could be a starting place for moving forward. If you read what I actually said, I repeatedly do provide specific examples of experts whose definitions are different than those you and TFD cited, and none of it is my "interpretation", but instead is my good faith effort to report what the sources themselves say, in their own words, and without superimposing editor opinion upon them. Keithbob: it would be helpful if you could provide guidance about the process by which Collect and I could un-stuck this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:47, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Absent an actual source giving an actual specific definition, I see no way we will reach agreement if we insist on using our own personal reading and inferences from sources. TFD and I have furnished numerous such specific sources and specific definitions, and I will not accede to using what any editor "knows" to be the truth where they provide no such specific definitions from specific sources. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I've provided a lot of specific sources with specific definitions, and I am not at all imposing my own personal interpretation on any of it. I even responded to every source that you cited, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Instead of presenting 16 lengthy sections, it would have been helpful to have presented a few brief ones. I wonder if you collapse your section above and provide a few key points.

I notice that nowhere have you presented a definition in any source that deviates from what Collect and I presented. You quote Juergensmeyer for example as saying, "But more often it has been religion – sometimes in combination with these other factors, sometimes as the primary motivation – that has incited terrorist acts." That is exactly what Cronin said: "many groups have a mix of motivating ideologies—some ethnonationalist groups, for example, have religious characteristics or agendas-but usually one ideology or motivation dominates." Where Juergensmeyer disagrees with the mainstream is that he believes religion is a motivation - in fact the major motivation - of NI Ireland terrorism, while most writers, in line with the historiography of the conflict, do not.

I don't understand your "organized" distinction that Schbley is supposed to make. He met with anti-abortionists and rejected them from his study because they were elderly mainstream religious people not involved in terrorism, not because they were not organized - they in fact were. And yes he casually refers to the terrorists he researched who happened be Christians, at least nominally, as "Christian terrorists", but it's clear the purpose of his investigation was to find terrorists who met the definition used by Juergensmeyer and others, the "true" Christian terrorists (his quotation marks).

You have not provided any definition of Christian terrorism that includes forced conversion, merely sources that say it is one of the activities that some Christian terrorists carry out. Some Christian terrorists blow up buildings, that does not mean that blowing up a building is an act of Christian terrorism. It becomes an act of Christian terrorism when the motivation is religious, as opposed for example to humiliation of another ethnic/nationalist group. Notably some of the terrorists who force Christianity on Hindus are themselves Hindu.

Even the anti-Islamlist activist and communications professor, Jonathan Matusitz, uses the same definition: "Christian terrorism consists of terrorist attacks committed by groups or individuals who appeal to Christian motives or goals for their actions. have used unique interpretations of the principles of faith...to try to cause the "end times" described in the Book of Revelation." (p. 155)

Instead of interpreting these sources to figure out what they meant by Christian terrorism, could you please present a definition by any one of them that differs from what Collect and I have presented.

TFD (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• In my view, Tryptofish accurately represents the sources that he brought and I find that he very clearly stated how the second, broader definition comes into play. I do not understand Collect's and TFD's ... inability (searching for a non-prejudicial word there - it is my intent to be non-prejudicial!) to see what is to me, clearly laid out. Keithbob the exchange happening right here, is exactly where we have been stymied. This is where we need your help! Jytdog (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I just quoted the definitions by Juergensmeyer, Cronin and Matusitz and they are exactly the same. Can you quote from any of the authors above where they define the concept any differently. Or just name one of them and I will find and present their definition.TFD (talk) 02:19, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Do any of the sources the define Christian terrorism in such a way that it can be carried out with no Christian motivation? Or is your point that Christianity need not be the only motivation? If so that is exactly what the sources Collect and I provided said. TFD (talk) 07:41, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

TFD, I will attempt to rely to all of your comments so far, here. Having spent all the time that I did researching and writing my view, I am very sympathetic to the point that other participating editors need some time to properly read all those sections of my view. Please feel free to take as much time as you need to read it properly, but please also base your comments on what I actually said, instead of re-framing them, just as I have been careful to take your comments as you have actually said them. If I were to "collapse" my view into a short summary, it would be: the source material as we find it is complex and does not have a settled academic consensus. Thus, it defeats the purpose to treat the sources as something that is amenable to a brief summary, so again please take your time.

If you read what I actually said, I present plenty of sources that use definitions different than what you and Collect said, which is why I present so many sources. About Juergensmeyer and Cronin, that quote from Cronin is an interesting one, so thank you for pointing it out. However, Cronin seems to be saying that those terrorists who have "a mix of motivating ideologies" should be classified as non-religious categories of terrorists, whereas Juergensmeyer would classify them as religious terrorists.

Schbley clearly says that the anti-abortion bombers were Christian terrorists. He did not reject them because they were mainstream religious people (if that's what mainstream religious people are like, heaven help us!), but because they were too old for him to interview and get meaningful responses. You and I have gone around in circles about Schbley, and Keithbob needs to figure out a process to get that un-stuck.

About forced conversion, are you referring to Aghai? I don't think that my view actually uses the words "forced conversion". I think we should take Aghai as he writes it, including spread of religion, but I don't think that he specifically mentions conversion as part of that spread.

Matusitz may have that sentence that you quoted in isolation, but his chapter, taken as a whole, is fairly represented in what I wrote.

I have presented numerous sources that treat the definition of Christian terrorism in different ways. And I've discussed in detail how a significant number of them treat "motivations" separately from religion. Please take as much time as you need to read what I actually said.

As I said to Collect, it would be helpful if you could identify any areas where we might have agreement (as I did in responding to your view). And, again, I ask Keithbob to provide some process for getting the discussion un-stuck. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:21, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

You are saying that even though Matusitz begins his section on "Christian Terrorism" with a clear definition, that the examples he uses shows he is using a different definition. That is original research and you need a secondary source that says that or another author who defines the subject the way you do. (I would suggest however using a definition written by an actual terrorism expert. Some who says Islam is the major problem facing the world and that Muslims breed like mushrooms after the rain is not representative of the views of terrorism experts.)

Cronin does not say that those terrorists who have a mix of motivating ideologies should be classified as non-religious terrorists, nor does Juergensmeyer say they should be classified as religious terrorists. These writers agree on definitions. Their disagreement is on which groups meet them. Juergensmeyer thinks that religion is the major motivation in NI terrorism. Most experts do not think it is a motivation.

You are misreading Schbely. He said the old people were not terrorists and did not include the actual terrorists, who are a small minority of anti-abortionists and typically younger, in his study because of the difficulty in determining their motivation. That is standard in terrorism studies. The motives of groups are clearer. For example, the motives of al Qaeda are relatively clear, but the motives of the Fort Hood shooter are not. It could be he was an employee who went postal and used Islam as a rationalization. Of course the same could be said of individuals in any terrorist group, or any group for that matter. Misplaced Pages has clear objectives but individual editors may have different reasons for contributing.

If you want to know where we agree, it is that all the above writers present correct definitions of Christian terrorism.

TFD (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Let's please stick to what I actually said about Matusitz, Juergensmeyer, and Cronin in my view.

In general, there are a couple of things that I have been trying very hard to do in this mediation discussion, that I would hope that other participating editors would reciprocate. When I have said something in my view, please do not overlook the fact that I have said it. When I have said something in my view, please do not ask me to say it again. When I have said something in my view, please do not re-frame what I said as something else and then try to argue with me about it. And please base everything on what the sources, themselves, say – all of the sources that I have cited.

At this point, it's worth noting that, as Jytdog pointed out earlier, we are really right at the same point that we were at on the article talk page when we first agreed to the mediation. If you look back at my original request at the top of this mediation page, you will see that TFD and Collect are now arguing for what is basically numbered point #1, and Jytdog, Bryon, and I are arguing for what is basically numbered point #2. And we are stuck, not even able to agree on what the sources say.

Keithbob, this is where you need to actively mediate. We need a structure to the discussion to get past where we are now stuck. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

What is holding us up is that you are unable to provide a source that contains your preferred definition, and instead say we should ingnore the definitions provided in sources, figure out what they really meant and write our own definition. In that case we are at a dead end, because policies for verifiability, weight and original research prevent us from doing that. TFD (talk) 21:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Again, I really need other editors to stick what I have said, and not to re-frame it as something else. Per what I already said, I don't have a preferred definition, so it is a false argument to try to argue with me about a single definition. I've presented a very large number of sources, which employ various definitions. Some differ only by small matters of degree, whereas others differ significantly in how they go about constructing a definition. I base my analysis on what the sources, themselves, say, without imposing my personal interpretations on anything. In contrast, trying to shoehorn all of the sources into an interpretation where all the authors intended their definitions to be the same does require original research. There's no getting around it: the source material is diverse and messy. We have to deal with the reliable sources as they exist – all of them – and not attempt to portray an overarching theme that does not exist in the sources themselves. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:10, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Trypto, I believe that you and I find that sources support both definitions #1 and #2 - sources are not unified on this, and we believe that the Christian Terrorism article should accurately reflect that the various definitions. Correct? Just saying this because above you seem to say that you, I, and Bryon only support #2. I ~think~ Bryon supports only definition #2 being used in the article, but am not sure about that =- Bryon where do you stand? Jytdog (talk) 22:42, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I support what the RS says...ALL of the RS, not just certain editors' favorite RS. So essentially, I support both #1 and #2, because both are supported by various RS, and I also support inclusion of anything that is described in RS as "Christian Terrorist", "engaged in Christian Terrorism", or any other variation of that concept. I also think this discussion is pointless, because the WP ideal, as I understand it, is to present all RS viewpoints, with corresponding weight and/or qualification if necessary. TFD specifically seems to want to delete everything from the page that does not fit into a very narrow definition of CT presented by hand-picked RS (if not the entire page itself), while virtually discarding anything that disagrees with this "narrative", regardless of whether it is RS or not. It's clear to me that nothing really is going to be accomplished here, which is why I'm not commenting much on it. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 01:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

thanks for clarifying your view on definitions. Jytdog (talk) 01:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Jytdog and Bryon, I agree with what both of you have said, and I thank you both for better defining the issue. My intention was always that #2 was to say that there is a range of positions taken by sources, and that range includes the narrow position described in #1, but also includes other, broader positions that are not included in #1. Indeed, if one looks at my first numbered section in the part of my view that Keithbob has collapses, I describe that narrow position there, and I say that I agree with TFD and Collect that such sources exist. Indeed, I think that every participating editor agrees that such sources exist. The difference is that Jytdog, Bryon, and I also believe that other sources exist; whereas TFD and Collect previously stated that the other sources are minority or fringe, and more recently have stated that the other sources really are saying the exact same things as the narrow sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

There are a number of articles about topics where the definition is disputed, for example, conservatism, liberalism, socialism, fascism, genocide and terrorism. In each case, there are sources that discuss the dispute over the definition. Cronin for example says, "DEFINITION OF TERRORISM Terrorism is notoriously difficult to define,...individuals can disagree over whether particular actions constitute terrorism...." (p. 32) A search of Google books for "terrorism definition" shows that lots of books on terrorism discuss the differences in greater detail.

If there are similar differences in the definition of religious terrorism, then they must be discussed somewhere, but so far I have been able to find nothing.

TFD (talk) 01:27, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Byron Morrigan, that is not my position. I just though it was biased, when most writers do not consider NI Ireland terrorism to be religious terrorism, that we say it is, by using a definition not found in any sources. We should explain why Juergensmeyer considers it Christian terrorism, along with scholars who specifically address his writings and contradict them. Juergensmeyer btw thinks that religion motivates terrorism in NI. TFD (talk) 02:58, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Bryon, I believe that too. But I don't see what this is doing in a section called "Discussion of view by Tryptofish". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Because your view is that there are Christian terrorists who are not motivated by Christianity, hence the need for an expanded definition. Since the current conversation is going nowhere, I would like you to provide an example of Christian terrorists who, in your opinion, meet the expanded definition, but not the narrow one. Otherwise the expanded definition is redundant. TFD (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

If you read what I said in my view, there is nothing there about Northeast India, so presenting a discussion about Northeast India as somehow contradicting my analysis is framing what I said as something that I never said. I feel like you are alternating between asking me for "an example of Christian terrorists", and saying that this is not the step in the mediation discussion for specific examples, that we are, instead, discussing definitions. I've given you a large number of sources for definitions in my view. In the case of every source, I've explained exactly how I think it fits into how we should understand the available source material on defining the term. I've done it without evasion, without misrepresenting what the sources say, and without misrepresenting what other participating editors have said. When I have already said something in my view, please do not ignore that I have already said it. When I have already said something in my view, please do not ask me to say it again. When I have already said something in my view, please do not re-frame it as something that I did not say and then try to have an argument with me about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

What I am asking for is an example of a group that could meet definition 2 but fails definition 1. If none such groups exist, then your emphatic defense of definition 2 appears diverse. If any reliable sources had made a distinction between these two definitions, then surely one of them would have provided an example, just as they provide examples of individuals and groups meeting the first definition. TFD (talk) 20:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Good, this is starting to be the kinds of things we should discuss, although I think at this stage we are actually not talking about groups so much as sources. So are there sources that use definition 2, or something like it, and disregard definition 1? Yes, I've given you a lot of them. Consider, for example, when a terrorist is classified by a source as being motivated by alienation or humiliation. Those are not theological positions, by any stretch of the imagination. But if the terrorist then uses talk about theological propositions as a justification, a sort of rationalization, after the fact, are there sources that say, explicitly, that that is religious terrorism? Yes, and we will soon discuss them, one by one. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Can you please provide a specific example. You say that a terrorist who is not motivated by religion whatsoever may nonetheless be a religious terrorist yet none of the sources say that, you are unable to present any source that says that and all I am asking for is one example. And the reason you can provide none is that there are none and you are presenting views that not only do not exist in reliable sources but are not coherent. TFD (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I know you want me to frame this as being about just one source. I've said that, to accurately represent the available source material, we cannot reduce this to just one source. That's why I've provided so many sources. What I said just above, about alienation or humiliation, comes directly from what I said in my "view". I'm trying very hard to get you to engage with what I said in my view, just as I did with what you said in yours. You can find one source in my view that talks about alienation and humiliation. You can also find a second source, and a third. If you have really read and thought about what I already said, you will understand that, and not find it unclear at all, so your question to me is already answered. If that does not work for you, then please let's have Keithbob guide us through it. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

"Synthesis of published material" says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." You need to find one source that supports your definition. Also, you are evading the issue. I asked you to present an example of terrorism that is not motivated by religion but may be religious terrorism. TFD (talk) 17:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

If you were to read what I said in my view with the same attention and open mind that I have brought to reading your posts to me, you would see that I am not engaging in SYNTH, but rather citing numerous sources that fall into a variety of nuances, but within which there are multiple sources that agree with one another, without any reason for SYNTH. I am insisting on going through them one-by-one, and if you do not like what I am doing, please take it up with Keithbob. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

If there is a dispute in reliable over the definition, then you would be able to find a source that discusses it, as we do in fascism, genocide, terrorism, etc. For you to review the defintions and find differences is original research and something you might present to a journal on terrorism. But it is beyond policy for us to do it ourselves. TFD (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, so you would want to see source A say that source B defines religious terrorism in a manner with which source A disagrees, rather than a Misplaced Pages editor say that A and B say things differently. No problem. Likewise, I will want to see you be open to the possibility that when source A and source B say such things, that it is original research for editors to say that what the sources say about differences must be disregarded because the editors disagree with the sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying I should not dismiss a source because I disagree with it? What you or I happen to agree with is irrelevant - the article is supposed to represent what sources say. TFD (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's certainly one part of what I'm saying, and I thank you for that reply. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Christian terrorism Part II

Thank you Tryptofish and TFD for taking the time to give a detailed analysis of several of the sources that are key to this dispute. I have collapsed both of those sections, without prejudice, so as not to obscure the flow of the discussion. However, I hope that the participants will refer to them from time to time as they are valuable resources for this discussion.

As always, please keep your comments on the content not the contributor and avoid sarcasm. All participants are here in good faith and deserve to be treated with civility and respect. I'm working on a summary of where we are at and I will post it in a couple of hours (I have to go to a real life appt first).-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:31, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

SUMMARY: OK, so our current focus is to obtain a consensus for a definition of Christian terrorism. Keep in mind that a definition could be specific and narrow in its focus or it could be more nuanced to allow for special circumstances and varying context.

I'd like to highlight some areas of where there is common ground amongst the participants and potential for compromise and/or consensus: First, it appears that most or all of the participants agree that sources should not be discarded based on the evaluation of individual editors. Instead per WP:RS and WP:NPOV all sources should be represented and given appropriate weight per WP:UNDUE. So there is some emerging consensus there.

Secondly there seems to be two general approaches to the sources and the definition. Collect and TFD seem to favor something along the lines of:

• Terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions

Bryon Morrigon also favors this approach but with the addition of the phrase "or the spread of Christianity"

Tryptofish on the other hand feels that the definition should encompass the full range definitions that he/she feels are given by the scholars under consideration. Tryptofish illustrates this by saying:

• Christian terrorism is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" and is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions"

Jytdog appears to agree with Tryptofish's perception that the definition, given by scholars has some variation and nuance to it.

These two approaches are further complicated by the fact that both "sides" of this debate cite the same sources/scholars to support their version of the definition based on their reading of what the source/scholar is saying.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 04:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

There is a feint hint of bridge between these two positions in some of the comments made by TFD and Tryptofish:

• Juergensmeyer does not say he is using a minority definition and in fact he is not. Cronin and Rapoport do not allude to a minority definition presumably because they were unaware of one. Certainly there are opposing "schools" of thought in the scholarship on the subject. But that opposition has nothing to do with the definition. -- TFD
  • Thank you, TFD, for the direct answers, with which I agree---Trypto
• TFD observes that sources often use pretty much the same definition, and yet disagree about how to apply that definition to specific groups. In other words, we can have two sources that state the definition very similarly, and yet source 1 says Group X are Christian terrorists, whereas source 2 says Group X are not Christian terrorists. I agree with that –Trypto
  • If you want to know where we agree, it is that all the above writers present correct definitions of Christian terrorism. -- TFD

Is there something here we can build upon?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Seems that the only building block which would sustain an article is the definition which all agree is given by the mainstream sources. Fringe positions may be mentioned only in specific proportion to their prevalence in the scholarly literature, and only is specifically sourced and cited to the sources holding them. (" Terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions"). The addition of "or the spread of Christianity" would require specific sourcing to scholarly sources taking that position. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Collect this is not constructive.Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow. What a constructive reply to a person who pointed out WP:FRINGE is applicable where no one can show any other definition has any substantial support in scholarly sources. Might you kindly redact your odd aside to me? Collect (talk) 14:23, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

FRINGE is for stuff like perpetual motion machines, snake oil, and conspiracy theories. We are no where near that territory. It would have been constructive if you had said definition #1 should be given the most WEIGHT and definition #2 less WEIGHT... but going all the way to FRINGE for definition #2 is going nuclear. Not constructive. Jytdog (talk) 14:34, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. You won't find "Bigfoot", 9/11 conspiracy theories, or other obvious examples of WP:Fringe cited in peer-reviewed journals, appearing in books written by well-respected scholars, or taken seriously by major news outlets like the BBC. Because of the Western world's Christian majority, there aren't a lot of scholars (at least in the West) discussing that issue, so to limit all sources to those which back up specific editors' opinions, while deleting RS (including peer-reviewed journals, academic books, etc.) that disagrees with those conclusions under the alleged "authority" of WP:Fringe shows a complete misunderstanding of the WP:Fringe policy. At most, it is a WP:Weight issue, but there are no "fringe" sources or theories currently on the CT page, at least that I've noticed. And considering the battleground that the page has been for years now, most citations on the page have withstood a serious baptism by fire. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 14:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Keithbob, thank you. A lot of what you have said is very helpful. First, please let me clarify an aspect of what I think, relative to what you quoted from me. I'd prefer to move away from something that you quoted from me, because it was merely a point I was making in reply to a specific comment, and never an overall statement of my position:

Christian terrorism is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" and is defined by Juergensmeyer and Schbley as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions"

A more accurate statement of my overall position is at the top of my "view":

Some sources define "Christian terrorism" narrowly as terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing Christian theological positions. Other sources define it broadly as terrorism that makes use of Christian language or symbols, and is motivated by any number of factors, including humiliation and alienation. Most sources treat it as including both theological motivations and motivations based on ethnorelgious identity.

So, per the first sentence of that, where you are identifying areas of agreement, you are looking in the right place. Indeed, if you look at the first part of my "view" that you collapsed, the section titled "2. There are, indeed, sources that define it narrowly in terms of theological positions.", you will see that I said there that this is where we agree. Insofar as I can tell, every participating editor agrees about that.

But we knew that before the mediation started.

The problem we are having is figuring out how to reach a consensus about the other sources. I've pointed to: Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz. I don't think that we can ignore any of them. I think Jytdog, and perhaps Bryon, agree that we cannot ignore any of them. (I also made a strong effort to comment upon every source cited by TFD in his view, and every source cited by Collect in this mediation discussion.) I am concerned that TFD and Collect are simultaneously arguing that these sources are "fringe" and that the same sources are also taking mainstream positions that are identical to those of Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman.

One way of looking at this is that every reliable source says that "advancing theological positions" is the whole story. Another is that I've cited many sources that say something different.

So, is "advancing theological positions" the whole story? Or not? Perhaps we could see, one-by-one, whether Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz can be accurately described by "advancing theological positions" without imposing original research on them. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not arguing that your sources are fringe. None of them are and none of them provide fringe definitions of Christian terrorism. None of them define Christian terrorism as terrorism that makes use of Christian language or symbols, although that is something that Christian terrorists do.

Sometimes it is helpful to use examples. Can you please provide one of a terrorist group makes use of Christian language or symbols, but religion is not a motivation for their terrorism. My examples would include Northern Ireland, Lebanese, East Indian terrorism and the Ku Klux Klan, but I believe that you, Jytdog and Byron Morrigan believe that religious is part of or the major part of their motivation. Do any of these authors say that for example the IRA is not motivated by religion, but is nonetheless a Christian terrorist organization?

TFD (talk) 16:31, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

TFD, thank you for the reply. I am glad that you do not consider any of those sources to be fringe. It now appears that only Collect considers some of them to be fringe.

About Christian language or symbols, please refer to what I actually said in my view. Perhaps you can demonstrate that all of Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz assign a lesser role to "Christian language or symbols", and a greater role to "advancing theological positions".

Just a few days ago, you said to me in this mediation discussion that you wanted this phase of the mediation to focus on definitions, and to leave the application of definitions to specific examples to a later stage of the discussion. Please go through what I said about Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz, and look for ones that say religious terrorists can use language or symbols as something added on after the fact, when the underlying motivation is not really "advancing theological positions". --Tryptofish (talk) 16:52, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Aghai defines religious terrorism as "These groups seek to eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners', impose strict religious law on society, forcibly insert religion into politics, and/or bring in apocalyptic cults." You are right, at first glance this definition appears similar to everyone else's. You then say he "does not treat the distinction between theology and "spread" as a significant distinction." But that is just your original interpretation. Instead of accepting his definition, you are reading more into it. These terrorists who spread religion do so out of religious motivation. Or do you think they have non-religious motives for spreading religion? Instead of telling us what scholars meant but did not say in their definitions, please find one that provides the definition you think we should use. And please provide one, not 17. TFD (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

TFD, you say, "These terrorists who spread religion do so out of religious motivation." Well, we agree there. Like I said previously, it's simply the vague wording of "advancing theological positions" that concerns me. Does it refer to 'theological positions' like, "I am committing this act of terror in order to hasten the Second Coming!" or does it refer to 'theological positions' like, "I am committing this act of terror in order to advance Christianity!" or does it refer to 'theological positions' like, "I am committing this act of terror because it says in Deuteronomy to kill all who worship any gods but my own!"??? (Personally, I would say "All of the above".) I just felt that adding the language referring to the "spread of Christianity" makes it more 'contemporary', in light of the Indian RS, and easier for the layman to understand. I have a feeling (based on years of fighting on the CT page) that "theological positions" without further elaboration, will embolden the "No True Scotsman" crowd, who will say that there is no "theological position" supporting terrorism, leading to endless WP:OR debates about the meanings of various Biblical verses, rather than simply relying upon:

(a) Does RS specifically describe the group or acts as "Christian Terrorism"? or (b) Does RS state a Christian religious motivation for the group or acts? If "yes" to (a) or (b), then they get added to the page.

I think that's pretty obvious. (And as I've said repeatedly, I'm not getting into the Northern Ireland thing, because I have no idea what the RS says in regards to either (a) or (b) on the subject, and I have pretty much zero interest in that conflict.) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 20:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to say their terrorist actions are motivated by Christianity. I do not think that Christian terrorists have non-religious reasons for spreading Christianity but I also know that religious belief is not the only reason for spreading Christianity. That is the affirming the consequent: some Christian terrorists spread Christianity, therefore all terrorists who spread Christianity are Christian terrorists. Since none of the sources include that in their definitions, there is no reason why we should.

Incidentally we are just discussing the definition. What groups to include and how to do so comes later.

TFD (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Trypto, it is not clear to me what distinction you are drawing with regard to Aghai. He seems quite solidly in Definition #1, with clear religious motivations and goals... Jytdog (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

As I said in my view, Aghai is very close to the sources in the section of my view just before Aghai. I never said that he is using a greatly different definition. One has to read my view as I wrote it, with a progressive range from the first section of the entire view to the last. Otherwise, I would have simply put each of the sources into one of two groups! On Aghai, I was speaking to what Bryon had argued in the earlier discussion. The question there was whether we should consider "advancing theological positions", full stop, or whether it should be extended to "advancing theological positions or the spread of Christianity". I'm taking those phrases directly from Keithbob's opening remarks in this sub-thread, OK? It seems to me that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman all directly use language that is very much about "advancing theological positions" without much else about "spread". Aghai says: "These groups seek to eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners', impose strict religious law on society, forcibly insert religion into politics, and/or bring in apocalyptic cults." That is still in the same camp, overall, as Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman. I'm not arguing that he is otherwise. But, I invite anyone to tell me, without resorting to original research, whether Aghai is talking only about "advancing theological positions", or whether he is talking about "advancing theological positions or the spread of Christianity". After Aghai, I discuss plenty of other experts, and I hope I don't have to repeat myself for anyone who has not bothered to read what I already said. And TFD, why do you still insist on attributing to me the opinion that there is one source whose definition we should use? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

oy, i am becoming quite lost. I am sorry but I don't know what "advancing theological positions" means, with regard to terrorism. I don't think you mean anything like the question of whether Jesus had one nature or two (which actually caused riots in the ancient world). I think that definition went astray from your very excellent original two definitions away at the top, the distinction between which was rooted more (to me at least) in motivation rather than the nature of the goals per se. Do you see what I mean? Any one of Aghai's 5 sub-groups may want to conquor territory as a goal, for example, but all would have different primary motivations. I think that your source analysis, hatted above, is true to the focus on the nature of motivations rather than goals, too. Jytdog (talk) 20:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

That's understandable, and I'm maybe the one editor here who does not defend "advancing theological positions", so, I'm not going to defend it. I think it's too limiting, and does not reflect the reality of the source material. Let's be clear: defining Christian terrorism as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions" is a poor representation of the available source material. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I have not labeled any mainstream scholarly source proffering a specific definition of "Christian terrorism" as "fringe." Indeed they unanimously seem to agree on the single definition. I do believe that definitions not found in mainstream scholarly sources would be "fringe" and that policy applies to all topics on Misplaced Pages. So far no one has presented a specific mainstream definition differing from that already proffered here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

OK Collect, then do you consider Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz to all be mainstream, or are there any of them that you would assess as fringe? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:10, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Of all those so far mentioned on this page, all who proffer a specific definition of "Christian terrorism" appear to be consistent. Please find a source which offers a specific dissonant definition so I might examine the wording of that specific dissonant definition. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Does that mean that you have examined all of Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz, and determined that none of them is fringe? What is "specific dissonance", exactly? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

As a start, you might want to read my view carefully enough to find where I commented on the sources that you cited (I tried to include all of them), and see where I agreed and where I disagreed, and we could discuss that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

You are being argumentative. Collect is not objecting to any of them on the basis that they are fringe sources. People, btw, are not fringe, only publishers only opinions. None of the authors you provided have presented a fringe opinion about the definition of terrorism. TFD (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

(ec) The sources so far which present a specific definition of "Christian terrorism" all offer substantially congruent definitions. So far no other actual definitions have been proffered from scholarly sources, making it hard to figure out what any other definition given by scholarly sources might say. "Dissonant" here means "unsuitable or unusual in combination; clashing", " lack of agreement", ". Lack of agreement, consistency, or harmony; conflict", " Being at variance; disagreeing", etc. In plainer English - definitions which are not in substantial accord with the specific definition found in multiple scholarly sources. All I ask is that such a definition be presented so that we might discuss it. I decline to comment on your iterated rhetorical question which does not relate to the point at hand - that is asking to have such additional definitions be presented so that they might be discussed here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:14, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Somehow, I don't think I'm the one being argumentative, but let's see where we are at this point. Collect linked to WP:FRINGE just after Keithbob's summary at the top of this section. If I understand correctly, that does not refer to any of the sources that I cited. If so, good! We can move on from any complaints about the sources being discussed being fringe.

In my "view", I addressed every source that Collect cited, and tried to examine each of them thoughtfully (as I did for every source TFD cited). It sounds like Collect does not want to respond to what I said there.

I've said in my view that it seems to me that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman all define Christian terrorism in a manner that is well-described by "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions". So, that far, editors here seem to agree.

I've also examined Aghai, Schbley, Purpura, Duyvesteyn, Martin, Jenkins, Price, Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, Mitchell, Juergensmeyer, Stern, the Routledge Survey, the 2005 Madrid Conference, Jones, and Matusitz, and pointed out the ways that they are not accurately represented by "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions". (Some of them, just a little bit not accurately, others, much more so.) Just above, there's the beginning of a discussion about Aghai. I'm hearing blanket statements that all of the others are identical to Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman, but I'm not seeing a fact-based response to what I already said about them. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong in all 18 of your examples, and I showed where you were wrong in the first case. Do I need to explain why you are wrong in each and every one of the 17 other cases? That is a waste of everyone's time, your's included. Why can't you just pick one source that backs up your definition?

Next on your list is Schbley. We'll skip him because I went over what he said above. Next is Purpura. He defines religious terrorism as "Extreme violence is used by religious groups to force change. Such terrorists see their cause and violence blessed by God." He then says that religious and "national or ethnic terrorism" can overlap. In other words, he sees NI terrorists as having religious as well as secular motivation. Incidentally, Purpura is not presenting his opinion but that of William Dyson in Terrorism: An Investigator's Handbook (2001), pp. 20-31 - see pp. 29-30 in this year's issue.

Collect is not calling the authors or their works fringe, but your definition, since it is not found in any reliable sources. FRINGE says, "Reliable sources are needed for any article in Misplaced Pages. They are needed to demonstrate that an idea is sufficiently notable to merit a dedicated article about it. For a fringe view to be discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, reliable sources must discuss the relationship of the two as a serious and substantial matter." Where is your source?

TFD (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

To say "You are wrong in all 18 of your examples" is a very strong statement, and you are going to need to back that up. I'm happy that in the next discussion section, Keithbob asks us to examine the sources carefully. He is correct that we will find it productive to do so. Now that we have agreed that the sources, themselves, are not fringe, WP:NPOV#Bias in sources becomes the primary governing policy, and it require us to consider all sources (allowing for due weight), and forbids us to exclude sources in favor of arbitrarily picking just a few. Your unwillingness, so far, to get past a demand for "one source" seems like a tacit admission that if we examine all of the sources, your argument will fall apart.

I'm glad that you are at least talking about a few of the sources I cited, so let's work with that, for a start. About Aghai, you say: "I showed where you were wrong in the first case". That's not accurate. You re-framed what I said about Aghai as something that I did not say about Aghai, and then refuted something that I did not say. When I have already said something in my view, please do not re-frame it as something that I did not say and then try to have an argument with me about something I did not say.

You mention Schbley. I think that it has become abundantly clear that you read Schbley to say one thing, and I read him to say very much the opposite. We cannot even agree on whether he talks about the abortion clinic bombers as being Christian terrorists (my reading) or as harmless old people who are typical of religious people in the US (your reading, I think?). Keithbob is going to have to lead a discussion to sort that out.

You responded to what I said about Purpura. Thank you! We agree that Purpura's writings are in line with writings by other experts, and I thank you for pointing another one of them out. You acknowledge that Purpura and others say that religious terrorism and other kinds of terrorism can overlap. As I said in my view, Hoffman is an example of someone who explicitly rejects the possibility of overlap in the NI example, whereas Purpura is one example of an expert who explicitly points to overlap. I think that is accurate. I've said that there's a difference there; you seem to be saying that Hoffman's and Purpura's language are effectively identical. I did not cite Purpura as a proponent of the broadest definitions (again: there are multiple sources here), but I said: "Purpura is arguing for the possibility of "overlap", in which some terrorism can primarily be a type other than religious, but can also, to some measurable extent, be religious terrorism in part." I think that's accurate too, with respect to what Purpura says. Let's see how this goes as we continue to look at all of the other sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

You say, "We cannot even agree on whether talks about the abortion clinic bombers as being Christian terrorists (my reading) or as harmless old people who are typical of religious people in the US (your reading, I think?)" What I actually wrote was, "He said the old people were not terrorists...." Schbley wrote, "The task of profiling religious terrorists was begun by interviewing abortion clinic protestors in Wichita, kansas. I found that the dominant majority oif abortion clinic protestors in Wichita, Kansas were Catholics over the retirement age. The overwhelming majority were passive resisters...."

You also wrote "He did not reject them because they were mainstream religious people (if that's what mainstream religious people are like, heaven help us!), but because they were too old for him to interview and get meaningful responses." Do find no problem in thinking that people who lack the mental capacity to carry on a conversation can nonetheless carry out terrorist attacks?

You do not seem to be reading either what the sources say or what I say correctly. It is frustrating that you now ask me to go over 18 examples where you have misread the sources and will likely misread any replies I may make.

Your comment, "Hoffman is an example of someone who explicitly rejects the possibility of overlap in the NI example, whereas Purpura is one example of an expert who explicitly points to overlap" is also a misreading. Hoffman wrote (and this is taken from your discussion above, ""I define terrorism as 'religious' when some liturgy, scripture, or clerical authority is involved in sanctioning the violent act. Now there are all sorts of groups around the world that use force and can be identified using religious terms but are not 'religious' in the sense that I am using the term. In Northern Ireland, for instance, Protestants and Catholics fight using terrorist (or as they say locally, 'paramilitary') tactics, but theological justifications play little or no role."

Hoffman does not reject the possibility of overlap. He just says that there is none in the case of Northern Ireland. So there is no difference between his definition and that of Pupura. The only dispute in reliable sources is which individuals or groups meet the criteria.

TFD (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

OK, this is beginning to be the kind of discussion of sources that we are going to need, although it will also become necessary for it to be a discussion in which all participating editors comment, without getting too caught up in sequences in which just two editors are going back and forth with each other. Keithbob may want to plan on how best to keep that working smoothly.

About Schbley and the abortion clinic bombers: in the section called "Discussion of view by Tryptofish", you wrote: "He met with anti-abortionists and rejected them from his study because they were elderly mainstream religious people not involved in terrorism, not because they were not organized - they in fact were." That's what I was referring to. If now you want to move away from that position, that's fine, and I appreciate that. My reading of the source is that he interviewed them because the bombings and other things they had done in the past were things that Schbley would classify as Christian terrorism, not that he interviewed them in order to have a comparison group of Christians who were not terrorists. I look forward to hearing what other participating editors think. Where you quote him talking about them being over the retirement age, that's where he is saying that, by the time that he could interview them, they were too old to tell him reliably the kinds of things he wanted answers to. He also said in this context that, because they acted as lone individuals, he could not access the kind of "mission statement" that organized groups would have – thus his subsequent search for an organized group. As far as I can tell, Schbley is saying that the bombers were terrorists when they did the bombings, and he is not claiming that, as elderly people, they were still in a condition to go out and perform bombings again.

I'm trying my best not to misread the sources, but if anyone corrects me as we discuss it, that's fine. The antidote to the kind of misreading of one another's comments is the kind of mediated discussion that we will have.

About Hoffman and Purpura, Hoffman seems to me to be very strict about saying that religious terrorism is only when it is based on "theological justifications" in a very exact way. Consequently, he sees the Troubles as not being religious terrorism. You say that Hoffman "does not reject the possibility of overlap". Leading into his comments about NI, Hoffman says: "Now there are all sorts of groups around the world that use force and can be identified using religious terms but are not 'religious' in the sense that I am using the term." He seems clearly to be saying that groups like the NI terrorists "can be identified using religious terms" but are not religious terrorists "in the sense that I am using the term". He really is rejecting the idea of overlap between ethno-national or political terrorism, and religious terrorism. Purpura looks at the same acts of terrorism as Hoffman did, and treats them differently. Somewhat like Hoffman, he classifies them primarily as ethno-national terrorism. You take issue with when I said that Purpura "explicitly points to overlap". I do think that he explicitly points to overlap. That's exactly what he says. He calls it overlap, and he chooses NI as the example to illustrate what he calls overlap. I cannot see anything in what Hoffman says where Hoffman would agree about overlap.

You and I have discussed previously how part of the differences between sources are in applications of the definitions, as opposed to the definitions themselves. I'm happy to meet you part way here, and maybe we can make some progress towards consensus. There is truth, to some significant extent, that Purpura and Hoffman are applying the definition differently to the NI group, so I'll part way agree with you about that. At the same time, I maintain that Hoffman is not denying that there were religious aspects to the Troubles, because he plainly says that they "can be identified using religious terms". Purpura says: "because of violence between Catholics and Protestants". He does not really talk about theology, but about identity as Catholics and Protestants, which I think is identifying them using religious terms. So I'm not seeing evidence that Hoffman and Purpura perceive different amounts of religiosity in NI. Maybe they do, but I would need to see them actually say it in those terms, to rule out original research. So, if that's the case, there is also, to some extent, a difference in how Hoffman and Purpura determine whether or not a given terrorist group is or is not a religious terrorist group, even with one given amount of "religious terms". Some of that is application of definitions, but some of that is definition as well. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Again Hoffman does not reject NI terrrorism as religious terrorism because he is using a different definition but because he is using the same definition - terrorism motivated by religion. Every single author who calls it religious terrorism says that religion is a motivation, every single one.

Also you continue to misread Schbley. The elderly people he saw holding up signs were not bombers, they were, according to him, "passive resisters". Passive resistance, also called "nonviolent resistance" is "the practice of achieving goals through symbolic protests, civil disobedience, economic or political noncooperation, or other methods, without using violence."

TFD (talk) 22:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Good again, because we are talking about specifics in the sources. Thank you.

Hoffman: you say he rejects NI terrorism because he is using the "narrow" definition, as being exclusively about "theological positions". I agree. That is exactly correct. I have cited Hoffman, along with Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, and Schmid, as using the "theological positions" definition strictly. As far as I can tell, every participating editor agrees with respect to those authors. So we have that where we can agree.

But you and I were comparing Hoffman with Purpura. I said that Purpura explicitly talks about "overlap". Do you disagree with me, and argue that Purpura does not refer to "overlap"? Do you find evidence that Hoffman does treat "overlap" as part of his system of definition? If so, please quote where Hoffman says that.

Schbley: Perhaps we are looking at two different places in the source, and it is helpful that you referred specifically to the people holding up signs, so I could realize that's what you were talking about. On page 73, Schbley starts a section that he calls "Toward Profiling Christian Religious Terrorism". I quote from his second paragraph: "after 9 years of observations and over 250 interviews, I found that the dominant majority of abortion clinic protestors in Wichita, Kansas, were Catholics over the retirement age. The overwhelming majority were passive resistors who opted to fill their postretirement free time by expressing their religious freedom of speech..." I see now that that's what you were referring to, and I agree entirely with what you say about that.

However, please look at the following paragraphs after that. In the next paragraph, he talks about violent actions "attributed to males between the ages of 21 and 43". Schbley seems to me to consider those violent acts to have been terrorism. He names: Slavi, Knight, Rudolph, and Kopp. Next he says of what those four persons did: "Although all the attacks on obstetricians and abortion clinics are acts of terrorism because they are violent assaults against symbolic victims (Schbley, 2003) and have been legally identified as such in court documents, they were performed by individuals without a cell or organized structure... Notwithstanding that these acts of religious terrorism are deprived of formal or informal organizational structures, their perpetrators do share common psychosocial commonalities with terrorists who are organized and structured." (Did he really say "common psychosocial commonalities"? Oh well.) He is talking about these bombers very differently than he talked about the passively resisting elderly folks. (And of course, most Christian Americans are nothing like terrorists!) He says clearly that Slavi, Knight, Rudolph, and Kopp were religious terrorists. He says that what they did was terrorism in Schbley's analysis, and according to US law. (Please note his reference to "symbolic victims", as we will come back to that later.) He says that religious terrorism can be performed by individuals acting alone, or by organized groups, and that the individuals and groups share common profiles. Later in the source, he will turn to the Maronite Monks largely because they were an organized group, not because individual terrorists cannot be Christian terrorists in his opinion.

I'll totally agree with you that Schbley did not call the elderly protestors terrorists. Will you agree with me that he did call the clinic bombers and obstetrician murderers Christian terrorists? --Tryptofish (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

You replied to me in the section above, and I, in turn, replied to you. I'm looking forward to a reply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Re: Schebley. He called the individual abortion bombers Christian terrorists and said they were motivated by religion. The only Christian terrorist organization he identified were the Maronite monks. So he is using the same definition. Let's not jump ahead and worry about which individuals or groups met the criteria.

Hoffman says, "many historical and contemporary terrorist groups also evidence a strong religious component.... However, in all these groups it is the political, not the religious aspect of their motivation that is dominant." (Inside Terrorism, p. 82).

You say Hoffman rejects NI terrorism as Christian terrorism because he is using a narrow definition. Can you point to any writer who says that they are not motivated by religion but are nonetheless Christian terrorists?

TFD (talk) 20:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for replying, even if you are being more adversarial than is really necessary.

Schbley: Thank you for telling me that you now agree that he called the abortion bombers Christian terrorists. Thank you. Earlier, you seemed to be saying that the Maronite Monks were the only Christian terrorists called Christian terrorists by Schbley. You seemed to me to be saying that all of the persons Schbley talked about with respect to abortion in the US were not Christian terrorists according to Schbley (and you seemed to be saying that everyone Schbley talked about with respect to abortion in the US were the elderly peaceful protestors). Now, if I understand you correctly, you were drawing a distinction (without saying it explicitly) between individual Christian terrorists and Christian terrorist groups, which is why you called the Monks the "only Christian terrorist group" in Schbley's source. (That still leaves us with the Phineas Priesthood, and maybe even the IRA, but we'll get to that.) You seemed awfully insistent that the Monks were the only Christian terrorists cited by Schbley, but now it sounds like you are adding Slavi, Knight, Rudolph, and Kopp. Is that correct? If so, please say very clearly who you think Schbley calls Christian terrorists, whether groups or individuals. Is there a reason that you think that Schbley thinks individual Christian terrorists should be classified differently than Christian terrorist groups?

Hoffman: I think you quote him accurately. Why do you think that I am disagreeing with you about how Hoffman defines religious terrorism? I don't. Yes, I have already pointed in my "view" to experts who classify as religious terrorists some terrorists who are motivated by stuff like humiliation and alienation. Things like humiliation and alienation are not theological positions, I'm pretty sure. But those terrorists are described as adding on religious justifications after the fact, as justifications or rationalizations, rather than as underlying motivations. You can see those sources, that say that such terrorists should be classified as religious terrorists, in my "view" and even in recent comments I've made on this mediation page. So yes, I can point to them, because I already have. If you don't like the way I am responding to you, please take it up with Keithbob, but I am happy to continue talking with you about sources in order.

Purpura: I asked you some questions, and you did not reply. Please reply. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:58, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Christian terrorism can by carried out by individuals or groups, according to the definitions.

While humiliation and alienaton are not theological positions, they are not motivations for terrorism either. Some people in the Middle East for example feel that the West has humiliated them following their betrayal with the Sykes–Picot Agreement and cite the imposition of dictators and theft of their oil. This humiliation caused them tp embrace Arab nationalism, liberalism and socialism, but when all those ideologies failed to address their problems, many of them turned to various forms of extreme religious ideologies, such as Wahhabism. That has led some writers to say that al Qaeda is not a religious terrorist group at all, because their motivation is ethnic/nationalist, rather than religious. But none of these analyses of religious terrorism alter the basic definition - that is terrorism carried out from religious motivation.

Purpura presents the standard definition of relgious terrorism then writes under the definition of "national or ethnic terrorism" that the Irish "conflict overlaps religious terrorism because of violence between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland." Your argument is that he is presenting a second defintion. I would say he is merely saying that there is religious in addition to ethnic/nationalist motivation for terrorism.

When discussing sources you need to clearly distinguish between what a writer says and what he reports. Pupura is explaining what William E. Dyson wrote, and for all we know may totally disagree with Dyson. If you see ambiguity in how Purpura paraphrased him, you should look at what Dyson actually said. "Religious terrorism Religious terrorism refers to the use of extreme violence by religious fanatics for the purpose of forcing changes in the government or on the part of the population." (Terrorism: An Investigator's Handbook, 2011, p. 29) He then discusses NI terrorism under "Foreign Religious-Based Terrorism" and says, "The struggle in Northern Ireland has largely been religious in nature." (pp. 37-38) So he is in agreement with the mainstream definition of religious terrorism, but disagrees over categorization.

TFD (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. It appears that we agree that Schbley, for one example, can be read as considering Christian terrorists to either be individuals or groups. That is helpful, and I agree.

For alienation and humiliation, I am glad that you and I agree that they are not theological positions. Thank you. You note that some sources have said that al Qaeda, for example, should not be considered Islamic terrorists because of motivations of that sort. That is a very good observation, and I thank you for it (and obviously, I do not dispute that such sources exist).

I have provided sources (in fact multiple sources that say explicitly that they agree with each other), that do say that those things are primary motivations for some instances of religious terrorism. Not just motivations for terrorism, but motivations specifically for religious terrorism, distinguished from other categories of terrorism. In fact, I'm surprised that you have not seen that in my "view". You have given an example involving some groups in the Middle East. It would be very helpful if you could provide one or more sources that discuss those specific examples specifically in the context of alienation and humiliation and so forth not being motivations that satisfy the definition of religious terrorism, so that the rest of us could see that analysis in sources. (I don't just mean sources that use the "advancing theological positions" definition, but sources that use that definition and also talk explicitly about alienation and humiliation and such being incorrect ways to define religious terrorism.) Can you do that? Thanks.

You said that my argument is that Purpura is presenting a second definition of religious terrorism. That actually is not what I said, so again, when I have already said something in my view, please do not try to re-frame it as something that I did not say and then try to have an argument with me about something that I did not say. What I did say about Purpura was: "Purpura is arguing for the possibility of "overlap", in which some terrorism can primarily be a type other than religious, but can also, to some measurable extent, be religious terrorism in part." Please tell me: isn't that what Purpura is saying? That is not a second definition (which we will get to later). And tell me: does Hoffman, for example, say that there is this kind of overlap?

I have no problem with agreeing that Purpura was citing Dyson, but I do not see Purpura saying that he disagrees with Dyson. Do you find that, explicitly, anywhere? What you quote from Dyson is useful, so thank you for pointing it out. His language on page 29 defining religious terrorism seems to me to be very similar to the language used by Aghai. He also says in the very next paragraph that "Religious terrorism is often entwined with other forms of terrorism." He discusses NI on page 30, under "National or Ethnic Terrorism", which seems exactly like what Purpura does. Except that Dyson's actual words are: "The English-Irish conflict could also be characterized as religious terrorism in that the violent groups Irish freedom are Catholic and the English are Protestant." Purpura said it was "overlap"; that was Purpura's word. Dyson says that it "could also be characterized as religious terrorism", his exact words, in a section about "National or Ethnic Terrorism". You argue that this is because Dyson defines religious terrorism the same way as, for example, Hoffman, but merely sees more religiosity in NI than Hoffman does. I think that's reading something into the source that isn't there. Dyson is actually a more significant source than Purpura, and I thank you for drawing him to my attention!

Dyson says that the NI conflict is "national or ethnic terrorism". He then says that it "could also be characterized as religious terrorism". And he isn't saying that this "characterized" would be a mischaracterization! He is saying that it is correct, in Dyson's view, to characterize it as religious terrorism. I'd like to see someone make the argument that that is identical to what Hoffman said, without engaging in original research. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I did not say "some sources have said that al Qaeda, for example, should not be considered Islamic terrorists because of motivations ." I said "humiliation and alienaton are not theological positions, they are not motivations for terrorism either." You seem to have difficulty in your comprehension of written sources - whether my comments or the sources we are discussing. That's a major difficulty in our discussion and probably means we will make no progress. I would suggest that you read text a few times before replying, but do not know if that would resolve the problem.

If you do not think that Purpura presents a different definition, why are you still talking about him? He thinks religion is a motivation in NI terrorism, Hoffman disagrees. That is a difference in how two different writers interpret groups using the same definition. Two experts for example may disagree whether O.J. Simpson committed murder - that does not mean they disagree on the definition of murder, they disagree on the facts of the case.

No source says there cannot be overlap, but most say it is rare or trivial.

TFD (talk) 01:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

In my comment to which you replied, I tried to thank you for numerous things, not because you were being particularly gracious, but because I am trying my hardest to move us closer to consensus. In return, you have accused me of having poor reading comprehension. I hope that Keithbob will provide some guidance about that.

Here are your exact words: "That has led some writers to say that al Qaeda is not a religious terrorist group at all, because their motivation is ethnic/nationalist, rather than religious." My exact words: "You note that some sources have said that al Qaeda, for example, should not be considered Islamic terrorists because of motivations of that sort." I understand the difference between "ethnic/nationalist" and "alienation and humiliation", and, as a gesture of good faith, I will say that I recognize that my wording could be construed as referring to alienation and humiliation when I said "of that sort". I'm OK with acknowledging that, because I am not here to engage in a battleground. But there are sources in my "view" that list primary motivations for religious terrorism, in which the list of primary motivations includes alienation, humiliation, and ethnic and nationalist factors, but not theology.

I did not say that Purpura does not present a different definition. I said that he does not present a second – separate – definition (the way that, for example, the alienation and humiliation sources do). His definition is similar to the "theological positions" definition, but it is not identical to it, so it differs without being a completely separate category. I'm taking the source material as it is, instead of using original research to shoehorn it into neat categories that the authors of the source material do not invoke themselves. I'm still talking about Purpura because he treats what he calls "overlap" as something that gets a significant place in his typology. As you helpfully pointed out (again, I'm trying to build consensus), Purpura bases it on what Dyson wrote, and Dyson's exact words are: "could also be characterized as religious terrorism". Hoffman looked at the exact same events and said that he would not characterize it as religious terrorism.

I think you may be engaging in original research when you argue that we are dealing with sources that all use the same definition because the OJ murder case involved a single definition of "murder". In all the reliable sources who looked at the OJ case, I'm pretty sure that 100% of them concluded that it was murder, and not some other kind of death. In contrast, Hoffman and Dyson are not disagreeing about whether the IRA did certain things, and the Orange Volunteers did certain other things. Hoffman and Dyson are not disagreeing about whether some other groups did those things and the IRA got falsely blamed. They are accepting that the NI groups did what they did. And they are accepting that what those groups did was terrorism. But Hoffman concludes that it was non-religious terrorism, whereas Dyson says it "could also be characterized as religious terrorism". Those are two different ways of distinguishing between religious terrorism and other kinds of terrorism. If one reliable source says that religious terrorism is distinguished from other kinds of terrorism one way, and another does it another way, there is either a difference in how they are defining it, or in how they are defining the motivations for it.

As I said at the top of my "view": "There's no simplifying that down to a definition that fits neatly into a single sentence, without engaging in original research. If editors decide to exclude all sources other than those that employ the narrowest definitions, and then use that narrow definition to exclude content about Christian terrorism as identified by other sources, that would violate WP:NOR and WP:NPOV."

You say "no source says there cannot be overlap". That's a pretty broad statement. In fact, Hoffman, like some other "narrow" definers, says that although "there are all sorts of groups around the world that use force and can be identified using religious terms" he regards NI as an example of where it is "not 'religious' in the sense that I am using the term". That, per his own words and without any original research, is about "the sense that I am using the term". Not about the disputed facts of the case, whether the OJ murder or the amount of religion seen in NI. It's about the "sense" of the "term". That's a definition. Dyson says, without any original research on my part, it "could also be characterized as religious terrorism". Those are, to some degree, differences in definition. Maybe not two completely opposing definitions, but not identical either. To claim that the differences between them do not matter for Misplaced Pages's purposes is original research.

You then say: "but most say it is rare or trivial", (where "it" refers to "overlap"). That's also a broad conclusion. Dyson does not say it is trivial. Purpura certainly does not say that, because he uses the word prominently in his overview. And my view goes on to cite source after source that also explicitly say that the boundaries between religious terrorism and other categories of terrorism are not firm. In fact, there are more such sources, than sources that draw firm boundaries. You are saying that you do not want to discuss those sources. And you claim that I have poor reading comprehension. That is unfortunate. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Christian terrorism (Part III)

Another summary:

1. All of the participants support WP’s guidelines and respect WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV as strong guiding principles for the Misplaced Pages project. Reliable sources should be represented and given appropriate weight per WP:UNDUE. Further support for WP:UNDUE is included in WP:FRINGE which says as part of its 'nutshell' description: “an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea”.
2. All or most of the participants agree that information contained in scholarly sources should not be excluded based on editor opinion or subjective evaluation.
3. At the present time all or most of the participants are comfortable with the scholarly sources being presented and discussed so far.
4. All or most of the participants agree that a working definition for the article Christian Terrorism would include “Terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of advancing theological positions.”

Where there is a clear lack of consensus is whether or not the working definition of Christian terrorism could legitimately be expanded to include something further.

Tryptofish and Jytdog feel that the working definition should include the sentiment contained in scholarly descriptions such as "terrorism by Christian groups or individuals with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions."

Bryon has said: “essentially, I support both #1 and #2, because both are supported by various RS, and I also support inclusion of anything that is described in RS as "Christian Terrorist", "engaged in Christian Terrorism", or any other variation of that concept.”

TFD has said “If there are similar differences in the definition of religious terrorism, then they must be discussed somewhere, but so far I have been able to find nothing.”

Collect favors a narrow definition and has concerns about giving undue weight to non-mainstream sources but so far it appears that there is not any individual or faction that is suggesting content that would violate WP:UNDUE.

So at this point in the discussion I think it would be valuable to examine the works of specific scholars (one at a time) to see if there can be some consensus on whether or not alternative descriptions exist.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:32, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The claim that scholarly articles state with the avowed purpose of various other motivations related to identity as Christians but not specifically as advancing theological positions is unfortunately not something which has been shown thus should not be made as a statement of fact here. Unless such definitions are given, it is not that I object to anything other than a "narrow definition" but that I object to any unsourced definition. And, yes, giving weight to editors own personal definitions not found in reliable sources is, by its very nature, UNDUE. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Keithbob: I think that your summary so far is exactly correct. Thank you! In particular, I would like to lobby you to do just what you said: "to examine the works of specific scholars (one at a time)". I would appreciate it very much if you would organize a structured framework for doing so.

I think it maybe would be helpful to have a visual representation of what you said about the various definition so far, so I would like to present these two tables, and see if that correctly represents where editors agree and disagree.

I think that shows where we have differences in the proposed definitions, and differences in how editors perceive the source material for those definitions. I agree that we need to look at the sourcing for those differences, one by one, and I look forward to doing so. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

OK - now can you show me those scholarly sources which say explicitly: Other sources define it broadly as terrorism that makes use of Christian language or symbols, and is motivated by any number of factors, including humiliation and alienation. and then a source which makes the remarkable claim: Most sources treat it as including both theological motivations and motivations based on ethnorelgious identity. I think we see the crux here. I did find what appear to be sources accusing the Red Cross of being a "Christian organization", etc. -- is that what you would use? Or what types of sources might you proffer? Collect (talk) 17:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

At this point, Collect, I need to say that I feel that you are not here to engage and work with this out; you keep being sarcastic and throwing out strawmen (like FRINGE and the Red Cross) rather than acknowledging good faith on the part of other participants, and indeed engaging with us - you write as though Trypto didn't provide the big list of sources and as though you haven't read them. The source cited in "13. The Routledge Survey" reads directly on what you ask; why are you not aware of it? (real question, please answer). Keithbob, how can this mediation proceed with Collect acting this way? (real question, please answer) Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Kindly avoid personal attacks. My position is clear: We can not create a definition not found in any scholarly reliable sources - we are stuck with what the experts in the field have already written. All I ask is that whatever definition you feel is proper to delimit the topic be presented with sourcing so we can gauge whether it is mainstream or (far away from mainstream). The nice Routledge attempt has problems - it does not even mention "Christian" in that book until page 155 (fn to Christian Science Monitor) page 225 (mentioning Christian Identity Militia, not defining anything,but saying religious groups may be less constrained in terrorism), page 234 (Christian Identity Militia - nothing about defining terrorism at all), page 42 (ditto), page 387 (list of acronyms), page 413 (acronym list), page 420 (ditto), 437 ditto, 440 ditto, 603 ditto, 606 (names "Army of God" in list) , page 615 acronym, 621 ditto, 625 obscure Russian sect in Canada, 638 "God's army" in list, 655 Kuki in list, 657 "Liberation theology" Roman Catholic group, 683 a definition! actually a vague definition of "Right" since the work makes no statement at all about "Christian terrorism" much less defining it "broadly". 689 has a sentence about the South Moluccas after Indonesia became independent, and 709 is an index entry for "Christian Identity Militia". Alas - a wonderful source, which backs up absolutely nothing about "Christian terrorism" much less any "broad definition of Christian terrorism." I hate it when I need to show every single mention of a word to show the source says nothing about it (OK -- only the 21 times Google found the word) . Collect (talk) 20:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Collect, Trypto's text above about 13. The Routledge Survey" very clearly points to the survey described in pp 23-27, which you don't even mention. You again demonstrate that you are not even trying to engage with what we are actually saying. I really don't know how this can proceed. Jytdog (talk) 20:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

"Terrorism and religion" in The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism (pp. 23 ff.) is not about definitions of religious terrorism. The question asked of expers was clearly stated as "What, if any, is, in your view, the relationship between "religion" and "terrorism"?"Some experts, such as Jeffrey Kaplan, said there was none, while others had different replies.

It is noteworthy that the editor discusses detailed questionnaires he sent out to experts asking about all the major issues and did not ask them about the definition of religious terrorism.

TFD (talk) 21:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Respondents nonetheless commented repeatedly upon how they would identify terrorism as being religious or not religious. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I also read the survey which does not say what he might think it says. You caught me just as the second part was coming! The survey was "What is the relationship between terrorism and religion?" which is not the same as saying "how would you define 'religious terrorism'?" at all. The answers varied - but not a single one of them addressed a definition of "Christian terrorism" or the like at all. Pertinent are such views as "there is hardly any evidence that the content of religion is sufficient to give rise to political extremism and terrorism", and several scholars limited their statements to Islamic terrorism. Stepanova specifies that reference to sacred texts is a common denominator - and specifically bifurcates nationalist terrorism from religious terrorism. Marks cites the famed "Kill them all" religious view, but seems to quite insist that religious terrorism is primarily based on ... religion. Sahni also requires religious traditions and texts: "All religious texts contain a sufficient measure of ambiguity to lend themselves to virtually any ethical scheme." He then deals, as do the others, entirely with modern Islamic terrorism. Gobel and Ganor both deal really with that issue. In short, the survey does not show support for a "broad definition" of religious terrorism, and deals almost to a person with Islamic terrorism to the extent it offers anything remotely near a definition.

Let us look at Ward and Sherlock then Religion and Terrorism: The Use of Violence in Abrahamic Monotheism Veronica Ward, Richard Sherlock; Lexington Books, Dec 24, 2013; 218 pages . A book on the topic. The section most relevant is by Douglas Pratt tracing "From religion to terror: Christian fundamentalism and extremism." Mainly pages 75 to 95 -- and he specifies that specific theological positions of groups caused terrorism, citing the "specific theological position of the Dutch Reformed Church" in one case, thus conforming precisely to the strict definition used by others. Collect (talk) 22:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Collect, sorry you got caught in an edit conflict. Those points you raise now are very helpful ones, and I'm happy to discuss them.

Routledge survey: In my "view", I said the survey shows the field of study "encompasses a range of narrow and broad definitions, and is not regarded by the author as having been settled on either narrow or broad." You have, reasonably, presented some respondents who gave "narrow" responses, and although I agree that the question given to the respondents did not ask for a definition, there were respondents who spoke in terms of "broader" definitions:

• "Terrorism can be religiously, ideologically or socially motivated – and sometimes a combination of these." (very much what Purpura and others say about "overlap")
• "Religion often provides a script for what an individual or group wants to do for non-religious reasons." (compare with Duyvesteyn, Martin, Price, Jones, and especially Stern)
• Some groups cloak their use of terrorism with religious or quasi-religious reasons." (likewise)
• "Many perpetrators rationalize and justify terrorism by invoking religion." (likewise)

Elsewhere in my "view", I cited authors who write explicitly about defining religious terrorism or differentiating religious terrorism from other kinds of terrorism, and I cite this survey as evidence that (1) the field of study includes a range of views, not a single narrow consensus, and (2) the views of other authors I cited are echoed by numerous other scholars in the field.

Pratt's chapter in Religion and Terrorism: good find! He attributes religious terrorism to a detailed sequence of expressions of what he calls fundamentalism. I think that fits exactly into the same group as Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman.

--Tryptofish (talk) 16:41, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they disagreed about which real life terrorism would meet the definition of religious terrorism, they did not disagree about how to define it. TFD (talk) 22:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Keithbob, I hope that you will take Jytdog's concerns seriously as you think about how we will go forward (and I thank Jytdog for the supportive comments regarding my "view").

Collect, the Routledge source is mostly about religious terrorism in the composite, which is why the word Christian comes up less frequently, but we are examining the definitions of religious terrorism here. Also, you will find it helpful to read what the sources say, instead of just doing searches for key words.

Jytdog, I'm pretty sure that I know "how this can proceed". I'm even cautiously optimistic. If Keithbob does what I think he needs to do, we are going to start discussing sources, one at a time. My hope/request is that Keithbob will set that up, assigning us one source at a time. I hope/request that, during discussion of one source, we have a moratorium on discussing unrelated issues, and focus just on that. My hope/request is also that we have structure for those discussions that minimizes the kinds of unproductive walls of text where two editors go back and forth at each other. Maybe instead, we could have every editor give his view of the source, and then have Keithbob direct us on what to discuss to resolve differences, or something like that. Keithbob, that's up to you. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Why don't you start by introducing the text from one source articulating your definition. TFD (talk) 21:27, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I started by introducing texts from more than one source articulating what the sources say about defining it. When I have already said something in my view, please do not ignore what I have already said. When I have already said something in my view, please do not ask me to say it again. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The mediator said, "it would be valuable to examine the works of specific scholars (one at a time) (my emphasis). That means you should present your sources one at a time and we can discuss them, instead of your presenting 19 sources. And please present a source that articulates your definition. TFD (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Keithbob asked me to introduce them one at a time, especially since I had already introduced them. I understand Keithbob's comments to indicate that he is going to assign us sources to discuss, one at a time. I am very happy to discuss them one at a time. (If anyone wants me to suggest sources in order, I'd say to start with the first source mentioned in my "view", and then take them in order from there.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

He wrote, "So at this point in the discussion I think it would be valuable to examine the works of specific scholars (one at a time) to see if there can be some consensus on whether or not alternative descriptions exist." Why don't you start by providing the work of a one scholar that supports your preferred definition. Here I'll get the ball rolling:

1. Cronin: ""There are four types of terrorist organizations currently operating around the world, categorized mainly by their source of motivation: left-wing terrorists, right-wing terrorists, ethnonationalist/separatist terrorists, and religious or "sacred" terrorists."

My reading is that she is saying that religious terrorism is terrorism motivated by religion. I would present a source that provided a different definition, but am unable to find one. Now it's your turn.

TFD (talk) 23:36, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want to wait for Keithbob, then you'll note that I said that I would choose to discuss the sources in an orderly way, in the order that I presented them in my view. I agree with you about Cronin. I likewise said the same about Rapoport, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Hoffman – and per what Collect just said, let's add Pratt. So we agree on a significant number of sources that utilize the definition about "theological positions".

The next source that I choose to discuss in what will be a continuing discussion is another one cited by Collect, and it's the next one I refer to in my view: the LawBrain wiki (link). I disagree per WP:UGC because the source is a wiki. It does not meet our needs for academic or scholarly studies as reliable sources in this mediation. Please respond. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The link says, "Christian terrorism is motivated by interpretations of the Bible." Since we have all agreed that is a definition, the reliability of the source is moot. Let's move on to sources that support your definition. TFD (talk) 17:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Because of your tone in the way you have been addressing me, I feel that it is reasonable for me, in turn, to ask you to at least be precise. You have just quoted from the source, and you appear to be arguing that you think what you quoted should be given some due weight on the page. Yet you have not actually responded to whether or not the source is reliable for our purposes; you just said that the question is moot. You then asked for a source for what you called "your definition", singular. However, I have said repeatedly that there is no singular definition. When I have already said something, please do not re-frame what I said as something else and then try to have an argument with me about something that I did not say. I have already given multiple sources in my "view" that support what I said about there being multiple definitions and no singular scholarly consensus. Because I have said that I intend to go through every one of those sources, you have nothing to worry about, with respect to when we will eventually get to what you are asking for. And I don't think you have shown any inclination to respond where I asked you to look in my "view" for sources that are about alienation, humiliation, and so forth. And if Keithbob disagrees with anything in my approach to this discussion, he can tell me and I will listen very agreeably.

So, let's just say for now that nobody is really going to disagree with me when I said that LawBrain should be excluded as a source. You've asked me to name another source, and I've promised that, in an orderly fashion, I will name all of the sources that address your questions to me. So the next source that I will name is another one that Collect had cited earlier: John Koller (link). I agree that it is a reliable source for our purposes, but I cannot find anything there that actually talks about how to define religious terrorism. Please respond. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

So you are saying that we all agree that at least some reliable sources use the "narrow" definition, but some of 20 sources presented to back it up may fail rs or not contain a definition, so lets examine each and every one of them. That is a colossal waste of time. I have no interest in arguing for the sake of arguing. Let's move on to your definition for which you have presented no sources, reliable or not. TFD (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

TFD, that is what both Trypto and i have been saying on the talk page (that we all agree that there are sources with the narrow definition), and what trypto wrote in his very post here and several times since. You are now saying that is a revelation to you -- you too are demonstrating that you are not listening, at all. And again, TFD, Trypto presented a ton of sources above, which you too have apparently not read. And finally again, I don't know how this mediation can proceed with editors behaving in this way. Jytdog (talk) 20:57, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Jytdog. TFD, I'm in favor of examining all of the sources, which is what I understood Keithbob to be asking of us. I asked you about LawBrain and Koller, and all you said is that they "may fail rs or not contain a definition". May? That sounds to me like not really responding. And I don't count 20 or so sources for the narrowest definition: Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, Hoffman, and Pratt make seven by my count. At this point, TFD, I suggest that you take up your concerns with Keithbob. But Jytdog, I remain cautiously optimistic. I think we can have a fact-based discussion leading to a consensus, so long as we insist on examining the sources instead of making sweeping and unfounded generalizations about them. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, synthesis says, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." So if you want to say Christian terrorism is defined according to your definition, you need at least one source that says that. Or if as appears to be the case none of them use your definition then you should drop it.

Similarly on organic farming articles, you do not allow editors to take one source that says some organic farmers grass feed their cattle and another that says there are benefits to grass-feeding and synthesize the two to say there are benefits to organic farming. In aspartame articles you do not allow one source to say aspartame is an artificial sweetener and another that mentions artificial sweeteners but not aspartame and use it as a source for statements about aspartame. How is this different?

TFD (talk) 22:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I am looking forward to hearing from Keithbob when he gets back to this mediation. In the mean time, I want to make a few comments about where I think that we are at.

As I said earlier, I like Keithbob's approach of discussing one source at a time, and of having these discussions about all sources. I also said that it is my request/hope that Keithbob will provide us with some direction about the process of having those discussions, with a structure that will help us get past the impasses that brought us to mediation. Similarly, I said that I'm a little uncomfortable with taking for myself the role of deciding which sources and in which order, because I see that instead as Keithbob's role, although I am willing to try to do it if other participating editors want me to. TFD has demanded (and I think it's accurate to describe it as demanding rather than suggesting) that I propose sources myself, but then he has objected very strongly to the sources that I proposed. That is awkward for me, because it sounds like TFD wants me to propose sources, but only the sources that he wants me to propose.

Another issue that we need to work out regarding process is that, per the summaries at the top of this section, editors are coming into the discussion from different starting positions, but we are having trouble recognizing how to accept that fact and work forward from it. A big part of TFD's objections to my selection of sources arises from the fact that TFD and Collect believe that all of the sources support the "advancing theological positions" definition and exclude the other proposed definitions, so that when I try to argue that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, Hoffman, and Pratt do, indeed, define it that way, and then start to contrast another source with those seven, TFD complains that it is a waste of time, and wants the other participating editors to accept that as a premise. If we are going to require everyone to accept, as a starting premise, a view with which we do not all agree, then that shuts off the discussions we need to have. We need to discuss every source, without objecting that doing so is a waste of time. If, in fact, every source turns out to use the "advancing theological positions" definition, then that will become apparent as the discussion goes along, but I think we need to have that discussion before we make that conclusion or any other conclusion. We cannot refuse to have the discussion.

I've asked TFD (and, if he wishes, Collect) a series of direct questions that remain unanswered at this time, so I will collect them here, and I hope to get answers.

1. Why do you seem to think that I am disagreeing with you about how Hoffman defines religious terrorism?
2. I said that Purpura explicitly talks about "overlap". Do you disagree with me, and argue that Purpura does not refer to "overlap"?
3. Do you find evidence that Hoffman does treat "overlap" as part of his system of definition? If so, please quote where Hoffman says that.
4. You seemed awfully insistent that the Monks were the only Christian terrorists cited by Schbley, but now it sounds like you are adding Slavi, Knight, Rudolph, and Kopp. Is that correct?
5. If so, please say very clearly who you think Schbley calls Christian terrorists, whether groups or individuals.
6. Is there a reason that you think that Schbley thinks individual Christian terrorists should be classified differently than Christian terrorist groups?
7. Should we add LawBrain and John Koller to Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, Hoffman, and Pratt – yes or no? (I'm not implying that this would preclude adding more sources to that group as well.)

Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

You are making this overly complex. Please provide one section of text from any source that defines Christian terrorism the way you do.

Re: Schebley. He called the individual abortion bombers Christian terrorists and said they were motivated by religion. The only Christian terrorist organization he identified were the Maronite monks. So he is using the same definition. Let's not jump ahead and worry about which individuals or groups met the criteria. (Note that I already said that 20:07, 1 January 2015.)

TFD (talk) 17:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not "making" it complex. The source material is complex, and I'm just taking the source material as it is.

OK, so you say that the individual abortion bombers and the Maronite Monks are the only individuals or groups that Schbley said were Christian terrorists. As I understand it, then, you say that Schbley does not consider the Phineas Priesthood to be Christian terrorists. We will discuss that further. Thanks.

You have now answered my questions numbers 4, 5 and 6. Thank you. You have also commented in the section above some more about Purpura, but you have not directly responded to my questions 1, 2, and 3. I'd appreciate an answer to those, and to question 7. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

"you say that Schbley does not consider the Phineas Priesthood to be Christian terrorists." In fact he says they, like the IRA "may be labeled as racism or political terrorism committed by a group with a strong ethnoreligious identity because their goals are not to bear witness against dogmatic antagonism or despotism but to consciously and forcibly redress a policy of political greivance. All contemporary Christian terrorism may not be labeled as organized religious terrorism except for the ."

In any case whether or not he considers them to be Christian terrorists is wholly irrelevant to our discussion. We are trying to determine the definition of Christian terrorism, not which groups fit the definition. Your questions 4, 5 and 6 are irrelevant to the discussion about the definition.

TFD (talk) 01:54, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Keithbob, I'm glad to see you back. I was making the edit just before this one before I saw your comment below, to which I will respond promptly. Before I do, I just want to note that there's a lot to get caught back up on, and also to note, about my questions to TFD, that he seems to be telling me higher up, in regard to questions 1, 2, and 3, that Purpura's reference to "overlap" is about something TFD regards as trivial and rare. TFD appears not to want to respond to my question 7. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

In the section below, TFD seems to be saying that LawBrain can be excluded as a source, in response to half of my question 7, but has not yet responded definitely about Koller. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Christian Terrorism (part IV)

Hi folks, sorry for my absence over the holidays. Happy new year, to all. What we want to do at this point is to examine each source one at a time and discuss it. Then we move on to the next source regardless of the outcome of the discussion for the prior source. I also think it would be prudent to have an agreed upon list of sources that we will discuss so we know when we have reached the end and don't go on indefinitely. Tryptofish you have already commented in earlier sections with quotes from various sources. Could we start by listing those here (without quotes or explanations, just list the author and publication(s)). Then others can add to the list as they like. I want to say upfront that there will be some flexibility in the list and one or two could be added later if needed to complete the discussion. The goal is resolution not strict enforcement of boundaries. So lets establish our core group of sources that we know for sure we want to look at and discuss in detail. Tryptofish can you please give a list and then others can add to it as needed. Thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back, and thanks. A quick note before I start the list. I want to make sure I understand your instructions correctly. If I understand correctly, you are asking for a complete list of sources, including rather than excluding the sources that some of us already discussed. If I misunderstand, please let me know. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I did not say overlap is trivial and rare, but "No source says there cannot be overlap, but most say it is rare or trivial." (Please distinguish between what I say about terrorism and what I say sources say about it. Articles must reflect what sources say not what editors say.) I quoted the standard definition from Cronin above. "Of course, these categories are not perfect, as many groups have a mix of motivating ideologies—some ethnonationalist groups, for example, have religious characteristics or agendas-but usually one ideology or motivation dominates." All definitions allow for overlap. Whether there is overlap in NI and elsewhere, and to what extent, is something the sources provided disagree on and that is something we will discuss later.

Question 7. In general I never use tertiary sources such as LawBrain. The reason is they do not provide sources, are rarely cited by other sources, and tend not to mention any disagreements that exist in rs. Without that, if they provide information at odds with what secondary sources say, it is hard to assess what weight to assign them. However in this case the definition is the same as every other source presented so the issue is moot.

Since we are all in agreement that some sources define Christian terrorism as terrorism motivated by Christianity I do not see any reason to list all those sources again. Could Tryptofish please list those sources that provide a different definition.

TFD (talk) 17:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish isn't going to list anything until hearing back from Keithbob, but I think I ought to list all the sources over which editors still disagree. There are a couple of sources where all editors seem to agree that the "advancing theological positions" definition applies, so I'm not sure whether to list those or not. For all the other sources, I want Keithbob to advise me before I start making a list. I also hope that Keithbob will tell us when to start discussing each source, and when to stop and move on to the next. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I don't think its helpful for one side or person to have the attitude that their evaluation of the source(s) is right and therefore the other side or person has to 'put up or shut up'. No one has to prove anything to anyone. We are here having a cordial discussion. I understand that there is some pent up tension and frustration around this issue but let's all take a deep breathe, slow down and refrain from personalizing our comments. If we can work together and resolve these issues than we will all be winners. If we continue to fight and alienate each other then nothing will be resolved and we all be losers. So let's all take it easy and proceed slowly, step by step. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd like each participant to list the sources that they feel would be useful for the group to review, analyze and discuss one by one. If there are sources that a participant feels is not worth discussing than don't list those. If there are sources where there is disagreement then those should be examined and discussed. First let's create a list. Make suggestions for sources and I'll compile the list and present it to the group. Then...... I'll start a fresh thread to discuss the first one and I'll monitor the discussion to help keep things on track. I'll also summarize at appropriate junctures and start a new thread for the next source when a discussion is concluded.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I agree 100%, and will get my suggestions for the list together shortly. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:48, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

My suggested list, in order:

1. Koller (link)
2. Hoffman (link)
3. Aghai (link)
4. Purpura (link)
5. Dyson (link)
6. Schbley (link)
7. Duyvesteyn (link, Chapter 2, pages 27–40)
8. Martin (link, Chapter 7, pages 137–157)
9. Jenkins (link)
10. Price (link)
11. Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, and Mitchell (link, page 112)
12. Juergensmeyer (link). Includes commentary on Juergensmeyer by McAllister and Schmid (link, pages 232–233)
13. Stern (link)
14. The Routledge Survey (link, pages 23–27)
15. The 2005 Madrid Conference (link, page 274)
16. Jones (link, Chapter 23)
17. Matusitz (link, pages 157–158)

--Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

to that I will add:

18: Heather S. Gregg. Defining and Distinguishing Secular and Religious Terrorism. Perspectives on Terrorism Vol 8, No 2 (2014) Jytdog (talk) 20:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Keithbob, for many of these sources, we are in agreement that they use definition 1. Would it be possible to examine only those sources that Tryptofish says support definition 2? TFD (talk) 20:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Keithbob, editors are in agreement that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Pratt use the "advancing theological positions" definition, and I am very confident that there is no disagreement about those experts. So I did not include them in my suggested list. For all of those that I did list, there really is disagreement about what they say. TFD believes that all or almost all fit the "advancing theological positions" definition, but others of us disagree. I also believe that there isn't a singular "definition 2" as a neatly-defined category, but rather that these sources span a range of expert opinions that do not fit neatly into one or two simple definitions, and I've been saying that all along. Insofar as I can tell, I am following Keithbob's instructions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:44, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog helpfully added what is currently number 18 on our list (Gregg). If it's OK with Jytdog, I would suggest to Keithbob that we place that source at position 7 within the discussion we are going to have, to be discussed after Schbley and before Duyvesteyn. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok by me Jytdog (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I will set up sections for the various views and move Collect's reply to a new section. TFD (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi all, I appreciate the enthusiasm and teamwork but let's wait before we make any section headings for individual sources. First I want us to agree on a list and an approximate order and then I will open a dedicated section for a single source one at a time. I will not open a new section until the discussion on the first source is completed. If we don't do it that way then we have multiple discussions going on simultaneously and things go round and round. Also a reminder that what I'm looking for at this stage is just a simple list of the sources ie author and the publication. It's not appropriate at this stage to be adding quotations, page numbers and comments. Let's just decide together first on the author's and publications we will discuss and get an approximate order. OK? Thanks everyone. I am signing off for the night but will check back tomorrow and to compile a master list and present it to the group for approval. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I've read all of the comments in the collapsed section below, and after reading them, I'm willing to withdraw number 1, Koller, from my suggested list, if that's OK with other editors. I had been asking repeatedly for a simple answer to my question about Koller, and it finally came below, and it's good enough for me for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:23, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I rather feel that we should look at the preponderance of sources - and "removing" a source because it actually supports the definition which seems to be the mainstream definition I would regard as a strange way of "looking at all the sources". Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean that. I meant that Koller is no longer a matter of disagreement. I don't object to citing Koller on the page. Just as I did not list Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Pratt, I'm now saying that I don't see a disagreement among editors (unless someone else has an issue about Koller that I don't know about), so we don't need to have a discussion about Koller. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:39, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

IOW you accept that all whom you do not wish to discuss all support the same basic definition? Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

In case it was not clear (even though I said it in my "view"), I fully agree that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Pratt (and, in fact, also Hoffman) are sources that support the "advancing theological positions" definition. I never said otherwise. It's not that I never want to discuss them. I was just following Keithbob's instructions to list the sources where I saw editors disagreeing, and I haven't seen anyone disagree about Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Pratt. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Our approach appears to be let's list every possible source the discusses religious terrorism, see how they define it, and see if any of them define it any differently from Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, Hoffman, Pratt and Koller. Tryptofish wrote above, "John Koller. I agree that it is a reliable source for our purposes, but I cannot find anything there that actually talks about how to define religious terrorism. Please respond." (19:55, 1 January 2015) Surely if someone disagrees with these sources, they should present a source that says something different. Otherwise, beyond the sources already presented, there are thousands of other sources we could add. TFD (talk) 18:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify.........We are not creating an exhaustive list of every possible source for the article. Nor are we establishing what sources belong in the article and which ones do not. Our task here is more specific. We want to create a general list of sources that we will examine and discuss for the purpose of establishing a working definition or description of the phrase 'Christian terrorism'. Trypto has suggested removing Koller but if others feel it's important to leave it on the list, than it can stay. No harm in reviewing it along with the others.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of sources

Suggested list and order for discussion

1. Koller (link)
2. Hoffman (link)
3. Aghai (link)
4. Purpura (link)
5. Dyson (link)
6. Schbley (link)
7. Heather S. Gregg. Defining and Distinguishing Secular and Religious Terrorism Perspectives on Terrorism Vol 8 No 2
8. Duyvesteyn (link, Chapter 2, pages 27–40)
9. Martin (link, Chapter 7, pages 137–157)
10. Jenkins (link)
11. Price (link)
12. Fulton, Hickey, Irvine, and Mitchell (link, page 112)
13. Juergensmeyer (link). Includes commentary on Juergensmeyer by McAllister and Schmid (link, pages 232–233)
14. Stern (link)
15. The Routledge Survey (link, pages 23–27)
16. The 2005 Madrid Conference (link, page 274)
17. Jones (link, Chapter 23)
18. Matusitz (link, pages 157–158)

Are there any more additions to this list? Is this general order OK for everyone?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Per the comments above, I withdraw my suggestion to leave Koller off (all I meant was that we seemed to agree that he fits with "definition 1"), so I now agree with keeping Koller on the list. At this point, I'm unsure whether or not other editors object to the fact that Rapoport, Cronin, Aubrey, Bale, Schmid, and Pratt are not on the list. I thought everyone agreed that they fit with "definition 1", but if anyone wants to discuss them anyway, I don't object. By the way, Keithbob, due to my own post-holiday travel, I will be around very little on Monday. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to discuss Rapoport etc. if we already agree what they say. For the same reason I would take Koller off the list too and start with Hoffman. TFD (talk) 19:19, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

There is a suggestion to remove Koller and Rapoport from the list. Is this agreeable with everyone? If there are no objections in the next 24 hours I will assume it's OK and open the first discussion thread.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 03:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Rapoport was never on the list, and I'm pretty sure there was never any serious interest in adding him or the other acknowledged "narrow" definers. Given the rather bumpy back-and-forth about Koller, I'd prefer to keep him on the list, and not to remove him. I was going to let it pass, but there are a few observations that I'd like to make and get responses from. It's not likely to be a difficult discussion, and I suspect that we will be able to quickly and easily deal with it. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Since the removal of Koller was objected to previously let's keep it. Rapoport is not on the list so no need to remove it. If someone wants to add it we can consider that at the time the suggestion is made.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of Koller

1. Koller (link) Comments? Discussion?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of Hoffman

Hoffman (link) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of Aghai

Vahabph D. Aghai (link)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:49, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Vahabph D. Aghai writes, " groups seek to eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners', impose strict religious law on society, forcibly insert religion into politics, and/or bring in apocalyptic cults." That is a clear statement that religious terrorism is motivated by religion. TFD (talk) 21:59, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

About as clear as possible in fact - he does not allow that non-religious motivated groups are religious groups. The goal of religious terrorism is predicated on theology. Collect (talk) 22:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I've copied the above comments by TFD and Collect from a prior thread which I collapsed. If the authors of these comments feel that they are no longer relevant and the authors wish to remove them from this thread they should feel free to do so as I have posted them here strictly as a courtesy.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:49, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

My statement is clear and concise, as is Aghai's writing. We now have eight voices for the mainstream definition - and Aghai will make it nine. Collect (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

As I see it, discussing Aghai is not about discussing differences between the "advancing theological positions" definition and a definition that would be much broader than theological. That's not the point. Instead, I want to look at #Definition of Christian terrorism (Part III), where one of the possible definitions we are considering is one suggested by Bryon Morrigan. It would add the phrase "or the spread of Christianity" at the end of the "advancing theological positions" wording.

I'm going to quote Aghai verbatim, as TFD did just above, but I'm going to reformat the quote as a series of bullet points:

• "eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners'"
• "impose strict religious law on society"
• "forcibly insert religion into politics"
• "and/or bring in apocalyptic cults"

Now compare that to the language used by Hoffman that we just discussed: "some liturgy, scripture, or clerical authority is involved in sanctioning the violent act". Both Aghai and Hoffman are very much talking about religion, but Hoffman is very explicitly writing about theological positions. For Hoffman and the other authors we discussed before coming to Aghai, "advancing theological positions" describes very well what they say, with no particular need to add anything else to it.

But there is nothing in Aghai about theological positions, beyond "religious law". Instead, every one of Aghai's points is about either getting rid of people the terrorists oppose or increasing the numbers and power of people who share the terrorists' view of religion. It's not a completely different definition, but a difference in emphasis. In Aghai, "advancing theological positions" still fits, but the "spread" of religion fits equally well if not better. Aghai does not rule out theological positions, and Aghai does not rule out spreading religion. Describing Aghai as both theological positions and spreading religion describes Aghai better than only as theological positions.

If editors want to argue against the idea that Aghai supports "the spread of religion", they need to show how Aghai's language excludes or is inconsistent with "spread". And obviously, it's very consistent with it.

Personally, I read the previous sources as Collect does: that they are adequately described by "advancing theological positions". According to that reading, we have 8 authors for whom there is no need to add "spread", and 1, Aghai, for whom we have to consider adding "spread", depending on what we see in subsequent sources. If instead we read the sources as TFD does, then we cannot rule out the possibility that some or all of those 8 would also agree with Aghai. Consequently, Bryon's suggested definition needs to be seriously considered. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Since Aubrey says nothing about spreading Christianity we cannot use his passage as a source that spreading Christianity is part of the definition. It is probably also incorrect to describe the passage as a definition, it is really a description. For example, while it is true that Islamic terrorists attack the U.S., that is part of their description rather than definition. Other types of terrorists also attack the U.S. Certainly one could imagine Christian terrorists using violence to spread Christianity, but there are non-religious reasons to spread Christianity too, for example to assimilate aboriginal populations into European culture.

Also, it is incorrect to attribute the definition to Aghai, since he is directly quoting Jeffrey M. Bale's article "What is terrorism?" Bale provides more info on the defintion in his article, and is clear that the major groups are distinguished by the ideologies that motivate their terrorist attacks.

So let's move on and see if we can find a source that says anything different from what sources have said so far.

TFD (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

So let's move on before @Jytdog:, and @Bryonmorrigan: (who originally proposed "or the spread of Christianity"), comment here. Anyway, I will try to address everything that you said, specifically.

You point out that Aubrey (one of the previous authors, whom we previously decided not to discuss) does not explicitly talk about spreading religion, although you do not provide anything from Aubrey where he explicitly rules it out. Just above, when we were discussing Hoffman, you were very insistent that, even though Hoffman does not explicitly rule out "secondary" religious terrorism, we should not assume that he actually would rule it out. And you were similarly insistent that we not assume that about any of the earlier authors, including Aubrey. It seems strange that you now want to reverse your argument, and ask us to assume exactly that kind of thing about Aubrey, now that we are discussing Aghai. In no way does that part of your argument contradict my reading of Aghai.

You then argue that what Aghai says may be a description, rather than a definition. Aghai introduces his list of categories of modern terrorism by saying "It quickly evolved into five basic types." He then lists those five, much in the same way that the previous sources have done, and he is writing about what he thinks distinguishes each one of those five from the other four. Call it a definition, a differential description, or a typology – it's no different in that regard from any of the previously discussed sources. You give an example (not taken from Aghai, but from your own opinions) of terrorists happening to attack a particular nation, and argue that that is a description without being a definition. But that's not the same kind of thing that Aghai is writing about. Aghai is writing explicitly about terrorist motivations and goals, as opposed to describing a particular historical incident. Your argument does not hold up under scrutiny, and it does not contradict my reading of Aghai.

You draw my attention to another source, by Bale, and correctly point out that Aghai agrees with Bale. Thank you! I think we should add Bale to our list of expert authors. So we actually have two sources, Bale and Aghai, whose definitions or typologies are consistent with spreading religion, rather than just Aghai. That strengthens my reading of Aghai.

I also find an interesting passage in Bale: "Moreover, it should be emphasized that these major categories of terrorism are not entirely discrete. Some essentially ethno-nationalist terrorist groups, e.g., have had a Marxist gloss (the PKK, factions of ETA), a religious gloss (certain Sikh groups), or a combination of the two (factions of the IRA). In more recent times, essentially religious terrorist groups have also displayed acute nationalist sentiments (the Islamist groups HAMĀS and al- Jihād al-Islāmī in Palestine), and essentially ethno-nationalist terrorist groups have adopted an increasingly prominent religious coloration (important pro-Islamist factions within the Chechen separatist movement, such as that of Shamil Basayev). These types of complexities need to be kept in mind when considering their motivations." As we discuss sources that will come up later in this mediation, you can be sure that I will quote Bale again, as we examine the overlap between religious terrorism and other terrorism categories.

I've tried to respond directly to everything you said. Unfortunately, you did not do likewise with what I had said, other than to dismiss what I said via some arguments that I have completely discredited. I previously explained how each of the things that Aghai lists in his definition or typology is entirely consistent with the spread of religion, and not entirely described as the advancement of theological positions. You dismissed my explanations, but you did not refute them, because you cannot refute them. I am correct. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

PS: About Bale, I actually do realize that we have discussed him as a source for what I have been calling the "narrow" definition, so his piece isn't really a new source for me. What is new for me, now that TFD drew my attention to it, is the fact that Bale does talk about spreading religion, as a terrorist goal, in the same way that Aghai subsequently did. There were some things in Bale that I missed in my first reading, but now I understand better that Bale's definition isn't as "narrow" as it first seemed to me to be. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry -- that someone does not say something does not mean they say the opposite. This is the Absence of evidence fallacy, alas. We can only deal with what scholars write, and not with what they did not write. Collect (talk) 22:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I misread your indenting, but I figure you are saying "sorry" to me. If so, that's puzzling, because I see it as being a good reply to TFD, and not to me. I'm saying that Aghai (and, now, Bale as well) are saying, to quote Aghai:

• "eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners'"
• "impose strict religious law on society"
• "forcibly insert religion into politics"
• "and/or bring in apocalyptic cults"

To say that Aghai is writing about both "advancing theological positions" and "spreading religion" is to accurately describe what that scholar wrote about. But to say that Aghai excludes "spreading religion" is very obviously to say the opposite of what is actually in the source. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I do not think you are reading the sources properly. The fact that one seeks to "impose strict religious law on society" does not make one a religious terrorist. However, it is something that religious terrorists may do. The key element is why one does this, i.e., what ideology motivates groups to commit violent acts. Bale writes, "groups from each of these four broad categories have distinct ideologies that help to explain what they are for and against, who their friends and enemies are, and what targets they believe they can legitimately attack." So for example, the ideology of 'al Qaeda' explains why they are anti-American and attack Americans. But non-religious groups can also be anti-American and attack Americans.

Furthermore Aughey does not even mention forced conversions, so if you want to add that you need a source that does so, otherwise it is original research.

I do not see why you find Bale's comments interesting. No one has ever said that categories cannot by definition overlap and therefore we should not say that in the definition. Whether or not they really do overlap in the real world is something to consider in future sections.

BTW, when you say "to quote Aghai", you are actually quoting Aghai quoting Bale. You already posted the quotes above.

Re absence of evidence. My point was that since Hoffman did not say terrorism cannot have mixed motivations, we cannot say he says it cannot have mixed motivations. Similarly since Aubrey does not say that spreading Christianity meets the definition of Christian terrorism, we cannot say that he says it does. If you think that such definitions should be added to the literature, then find sources that explicitly say that.

TFD (talk) 04:30, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think each of us believes the other is not reading the sources properly, and I very much hope that this mediation will help all of us sort that out. It is true that the fact that one seeks to "impose strict religious law on society" does not make one a religious terrorist. Then again, the fact that one seeks to "advance theological positions" does not make one a religious terrorist, either. Preaching a sermon, teaching Sunday school, praying, performing acts of charity – each of those activities seeks to advance theological positions, but they are obviously nothing like terrorism. So, shall we abandon the "advance theological positions" definition? No, because the proposed definition actually reads "acts of terrorism that advance theological positions". Same thing with the "spread of religion". We aren't talking about giving someone a friendly invitation to attend a worship service; we are talking about acts of terrorism that seek the spread of religion. I pretty much do agree with you that motivations (or goals) matter for definitions, and it seems to me that "imposing strict religious law" is a motivation or goal.

Where you talk about "Aughey", I'm not sure whether you mean Aubrey or Aghai. I'm going to guess, in context, that you meant Aubrey. I never said that I wanted to conclude that Aubrey talks about spreading religion. What I did say was: "Personally, I read the previous sources as Collect does: that they are adequately described by "advancing theological positions". According to that reading, we have 8 authors for whom there is no need to add "spread", and 1, Aghai, for whom we have to consider adding "spread", depending on what we see in subsequent sources. If instead we read the sources as TFD does, then we cannot rule out the possibility that some or all of those 8 would also agree with Aghai." It was you who previously argued that we cannot rule out that Aubrey might agree with "secondary" religious terrorism simply because Aubrey does not talk about it explicitly. Now, with "spreading religion" instead of "secondary" religious terrorism, you have reversed yourself 180 degrees. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

• on page 12 of Aghai, he writes: "When political and religious terrorism mix, political problems are viewed from a religious perspective. That means that destroying those with opposing views is not merely an obligation, but a heavenly duty. It means that the cause has greater value than their own lives or the lives of others. It means that the number and nature of opponents must vastly expand to include every member of every other religion or creed, because all members of other faiths are viewed as infidels and therefore either potential enemies or targets. Religious terrorism's enemies are far greater in number than political terrorism's. In recent years, the religious variant of terrorism has been gaining power and has become one of the main sources of terrorist threats. It is also increasingly linking up with political variant organizations, enlarging the power and potential danger of their acts."
• on page 61 he writes: "The Taliban was created to oppose the existing government of Afghanistan. From its inception, the Taliban was a political-religious movement based on a reformed theology of Islam; however its members portrayed themselves as fighting for true and traditional Islam. They had as their ultimate goal the creation of the purest possible Islamic state."
• On page 113, he discusses the work of Nasra Hassan on suicide bombings at length, and notes Hassan's findings that suicide bombers act as part of a group that provides support, the plan, and an geopolitical justification, which may "include anything from occupation, resistance, and insurgency to sectarianism, Shariah law, or a combination thereof." And he notes Hassan's findings that "the hybrid cells operating in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were the most dangerous because their ideology was based on a mix of religious, national resistance, mercenary, and criminal elements"
• On page 141 he writes about Extremism, Fundamentalism, and Religion, and he notes that "Many Islamic fundamentalists, but not all, promote the concept of theocratic government and view the West as secular, profane, depraved, and immoral. Most of the Middle Eastern terrorists have been fundamentalist Muslims, but they represent the radical wing of fundamentalist Islam. This radical ideology represents an alteration of Islam. Its adherents are people who believe that an Islamic state should be imposed on everyone everywhere at all cost, violently if necessary. In their ideology, "The motive justifies the means."
• The point of all that being, that Aghai very much emphasizes the mixture of political and religious motivations in contemporary religious terrorism, much more so than the folks we have looked at before. That does two things: 1) reinforces the discussion above about multiple motivations being well within the mainstream view of religious terrorist groups, and 2) provides a solid base for including the "spreading religion" - the actual point of intersection of the religious sphere and the political sphere - as an aspect of religious terrorism. Jytdog (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Essentially all of which is specifically about the current Mahdist/ISIL etc. groups in Islam - were Christianity to seek to have a Mahdi or Caliph,and were Aghai to so address Christianity, then a point might be seen. He doesn't. It doesn't. We need quotes from scholars which actually deal with the topic at hand, not an entirely distinct topic (irredentism is also a large part of the Mahdist/ISIL groups aims). Tell us what Aghai says about Christian terrorism, please. Collect (talk) 13:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I acknowledge that the discussion is focused on islamic terrorism. We are dealing with what Aghai actually says about religious terrorism, and it is a good question as to how - if at all - we can generalize or specific-ize in this field. Jytdog (talk) 13:41, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Um -- then you should delete all that which is not specifically about "Christian terrorism" as my glances show essentially all of the quotes above are specific to Islamic terrorism. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

um - if that is the case so strictly then we should delete almost the entire discussion we've had, as we have been moving from the general to the specific and back again all along. When I say it is a good question I mean that in a straightforward way, not rhetorically. Jytdog (talk) 13:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, is there anything in your posting that says religious terrorism is not terrorism motivated by religion? As I have repeatedly stated above none of the sources say that by definition, terrorism cannot have more than one motivation. If fact sources that discuss mixed motivation say it can. The purpose of this part of the mediation is to agree on the definition. Unless you have evidence that any source provides an alternative definition can we move on. We can discuss whether in fact in the real world there is terrorism with mixed Christian and other motivation in a future section. TFD (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Collect, when we look at what distinguishes "Christian terrorism" from other kinds of terrorism, we are very much also looking at what distinguishes "religious terrorism" from other kinds of terrorism. TFD, if terrorism is motivated by "theological positions", it is therefore motivated by religion, and if it is motivated by "spreading religion", it is likewise motivated by religion. I appreciate Jytdog's observation that Aghai emphasizes mixed motivations, but I'm particularly insistent that Aghai emphasizes the spread of religion, either by eliminating religious opponents or by increasing the power and numbers of religious supporters. The fact remains that Aghai, and also Bale, list the motivations as:

• "eradicate the enemies of God and other 'sinners'"
• "impose strict religious law on society"
• "forcibly insert religion into politics"
• "and/or bring in apocalyptic cults"

Those are motivations for terrorism, arising from religion. And they have every bit as much to do with "the spread of religion" as with "advancing theological positions". They do. That's an inescapable fact. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog writes, "if it is motivated by "spreading religion", it is likewise motivated by religion." No source says that and we should not delve into editors' original research. We should not add to a definition something that no source deems should be included. If someone has religious motivation to carry out acts of terror that spread religion, that is religious terrorism. If someone carries out terrorist acts to spread religion but has no religious motivation, that is not an act of religious terrorism.

The logical fallacy is saying that spreading religion is by definition religiously motivated. However, if that were true, then there would be no need to include spreading religion in the definition, it would be redundant.

Perhaps one believes that the conquistadors and other imperialists and the U.S. Cavalry brought Christian religion to aboriginal people due to religious motivation. Other sources believe that was done in order to subjugate them into Western culture. While those sources may be wrong, they are not wrong because they made an error in logic, but because they made an error in analyzing the empirical evidence.

Tryptofish, you have now posted the same excerpts from what I originally posted three times. We have all read the source and it is unnecessary.

TFD (talk) 07:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

TFD, my apologies that it sounds annoying when I repeat myself, but it feels to me like I am not really being heard – and I suspect that you also feel that I am not hearing you. I think what you attributed to Jytdog was actually something that I said. I honestly do not know how "the spread of religion" could not be motivated by religion. I suppose that, for some of the non-Abrahamic religions, there is scriptural authority that cautions against trying to get non-believers to accept the religion, but certainly Christianity has a religious basis for evangelism and the like. I take very seriously the point you make about how it would be redundant to include "spread" if it were an automatic result of "theological positions". I suppose that there is a question about what the difference between "advancing" and "spreading" really is, and I would be receptive to discussing alternative ways of writing the definition. It seems reasonable to me, however, without any original research, to expect that our readers will understand "theological positions" and the things in the bullet points that I have posted to be just different enough that we need to describe both in order to communicate clearly. It's not original research to observe that Hoffman refers specifically to "liturgy, scripture, or clerical authority" whereas Aghai and Bale refer specifically to what they write about. At the bottom line, I am convinced that those four bullet points I have repeatedly posted are about spreading religion, and about the motivations of religious terrorists, according to Aghai (and Bale). I cannot conceive of any way to argue that what I have quoted would exclude the spread of religion from the typology that Aghai and Bale use. You obviously disagree with me. How do you suggest that we get past this impasse? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest we move to the next scholar. I fear that I still see the "Evidence of absence" fallacy as being present here, and thus we are unlikely to more than add walls of text about what Aghai does not actually say. Next? Collect (talk) 22:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, the way that I see it at this point is that Jytdog and I have conclusively demonstrated that Aghai justifies us adding something about "spread", based upon what Aghai (as well as Bale) actually does say. If Collect agrees with that, great, but if not, then we need to resolve the dispute. After all, that's what mediation is for. And Keithbob, please take notice. I ask TFD how TFD would suggest we get past the impasse, and Collect immediately jumps in to say we need to move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

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