| Revision as of 16:41, 26 January 2015 view sourceTony Sidaway (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers81,722 edits →Gamergate: Why I referred the large addition to the article← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:45, 26 January 2015 view source Lifebaka (talk | contribs)15,116 edits →Gamergate: I don't think that gutting the paragraph is the answer to BLP concernsNext edit → | ||
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| :Obviously, I'm not going to be able to do much about this pretty soon, but this is literally the most noteworthy thing that has happened involving Zoe Quinn and two paragraphs seems like the minimum amount necessary. Not to mention that if you are going to mention GamerGate and harassment then you should definitely give people some inkling in this article what it is about. The current highly sanitized version of this is bad enough, but making it to where it is basically saying "Some naughty people were really mean to Zoe. You should feel really sorry for her. It is so hard to be a woman," is just making a mockery of Misplaced Pages.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 08:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC) | :Obviously, I'm not going to be able to do much about this pretty soon, but this is literally the most noteworthy thing that has happened involving Zoe Quinn and two paragraphs seems like the minimum amount necessary. Not to mention that if you are going to mention GamerGate and harassment then you should definitely give people some inkling in this article what it is about. The current highly sanitized version of this is bad enough, but making it to where it is basically saying "Some naughty people were really mean to Zoe. You should feel really sorry for her. It is so hard to be a woman," is just making a mockery of Misplaced Pages.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 08:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
| :: The extensive ] article goes into detail about the series of false and sometimes maliciously false accusations that formed the basis for the character assassination and other attacks against Quinn and others. The detail you've added is redundant and, for a biography, rather too much. To be sure, it's a major event, but Quinn was just part of it and not an instigator at that. The malicious attacks are on Gamergate, not those targeted. That's why I've now removed that large addition. --] 16:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC) | :: The extensive ] article goes into detail about the series of false and sometimes maliciously false accusations that formed the basis for the character assassination and other attacks against Quinn and others. The detail you've added is redundant and, for a biography, rather too much. To be sure, it's a major event, but Quinn was just part of it and not an instigator at that. The malicious attacks are on Gamergate, not those targeted. That's why I've now removed that large addition. --] 16:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
| :::It's a summary of ], of course it's redundant. You've trimmed away so much detail, however, that it barely says anything and certainly doesn't provide an accurate summary. If you're worried about repeating attacks against Quinn here (perfectly reasonable), it shouldn't be too difficult to remove that information without gutting the rest of the paragraph. Such as by replacing the second sentence of the longer version with something like: {{tq|i=y|Shortly after the game was released in August 2014,<!--<ref name="AusGamers" />--> Eron Gjoni, Quinn's ex-boyfriend, published a blog post attacking Quinn.}} ]] 17:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC) | |||
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WP:BLPNAME
In its entirety:
Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, ex, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced.
Which part of this policy calls for deleting the name of the living person who set this kerfuffle in motion?
His name hasn't been intentionally concealed. His name appears in The Globe and Mail. He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context. I'm aware of norms that argue for the omission of names of alleged victims of sexual assault, and they might well be coextensive with WP:HARM. But the names of alleged perpetrators of such harassment? Confirmed in The Globe and Mail? Really? David in DC (talk) 19:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- He intentionally concealed his name when he posted. Removing the name doesn't change the context. His name only appears as brief mentions in blogs and news media. SPACKlick (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context.
Of what context? All the relevant context is that he was Zoe Quinn's boyfriend. Also, we concealed Zoe Quinn's real name, because it appeared in few to no RS so it wasn't encylopedic to state, and given that she used a fake name anywho, we should respect that. We should also err on the side of caution on including real people's names. I have not seen his name plastered in article titles, only revealing his connection as her 'ex boyfriend' and that's all the relevant context that is needed. The specific bit you're looking for in BLPNAME isCaution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it...
We should keep it omitted due to privacy concerns for the individual at hand. Tutelary (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)- I disagree, but it seems consensus is in the other direction. So be it.
- You may have noticed, I redacted it above on the talk page, too.
- Now, what on earth is wrong with this direct quotation, attributed to the Guardian "According to The Guardian, Quinn has "had to pack up and move in with friends, after online campaign of hatred against her." It's a reliable source and it's not an opinion piece. David in DC (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- IT's of no encyclopaedic value. WP:BLPGOSSIP states
Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.
It may be worthwhile in an article called Responses to TheZoePost but it's not revelant to a disinterested article about Zoe Quinn. SPACKlick (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)- I'm beginning to understand why newbies are feeling bitten here. I'm feeling bitten and I'm no newby. There's a pervasive sense ownership in the hair-trigger edits going on around here and, believe it or not, I'm usually a BLP warrior on the exclusionary side of the debate. That a major newspaper has reported that the subject of a BLP has felt the need to move because of harassment is not gossip. It's a significant, factual development that would figure in any biography, wiki or published on old style paper. David in DC (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- SPACKlick, I agree with you on the name, it should be omitted, but I'm not seeing the proof that omitting the mention that she was driven from her home in a section entitled 'harassment' would be beneficial. Tutelary (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry if we've been a little zealous David in DC. WRT to the name, it simply violates BLP. WRT to the Guardian quote, I'm not convinced on the house move, but after you Boldly added it, I reverted it and now we discuss it. This is how editing is meant to work. I've queried whether it's relevant to a disinterested article on the subject. What does it add for the reader? SPACKlick (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- The real issue here is that the whole "harassment" section is probably going to need to become a "controversy" section. It really depends on how long this section is going to be; GamerGate has risen to the point of notability and actually has more articles than Zoe Quinn harassment does at this point (at least on Google News, though lord knows that's a rough estimate at best, as a lot of stuff involved in this aren't really great sources; there are lots of RSs, but a lot of sources are biased or have conflicts of interest, which is making sourcing things a lot more dicey). Also, a lot of the heat she has drawn is less harassment and more criticism, which complicates matters further, and even worse are the accusations that she is playing the victim (and there are numerous accusations of exactly this, re: the harassment and claims of misogyny). Her leaving her home is potentially noteworthy, but it depends on how much we end up including in the article. Titanium Dragon (talk) 09:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- IT's of no encyclopaedic value. WP:BLPGOSSIP states
- The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story. It does appear in several news sources, for example (I hope that merely citing reliable sources on a discussion page isn't enough to get me revdelled, but nowadays, who knows?). The most important reason to include it is to facilitate further research by readers and editors. I should explain by that, what I mean is, there are two kinds of media: one, like The Associated Press, whose purpose in life is to waste your time giving you bland generalizations loaded down with their particular spin that you can't follow up on to understand, and the other, like the sources I cite here, which make a real effort to give you the actual lay of the land. Some elites on Misplaced Pages recently seem to have sworn allegiance to the former media approach, but many of us readers do not agree. And having the name to search with is one of the quickest ways there is to pick out the real articles from the time-wasters to try to figure out what (if anything) is at the bottom of all this. It may seem cruel to associate the boyfriend's name with all this, but it's just as "cruel" to associate Quinn; bottom line though is that when something becomes big news there's no holding it back and it's not our job to try. And any protection as a "family member" would be misplaced; he is an independent participant in the story.
- Where we can be extra sensitive by BLP is to actually read that primary source of his cited in the Globe and Mail (I'm not even going to dare to try right now, but it does belong as a source in the article). In it, he has an update where he asks people not to harass Quinn, and makes other conciliatory statements, and mentioning these surely would not be a bad thing for either of the original parties to this pea-under-the-mattresses. I think that both parties, but especially Quinn, being the subject of the article, deserve to be heard in their own words - I always believe in letting the subject have his/her say. One of her primary references is .
- I'll add that I still have no idea how obscure blog posts ever got turned into a cause for harassment or news coverage; the incomprehensibility of it is precisely why I want Misplaced Pages to cover it in detail. We don't understand how cyberbullying or popularity on the Web really works, I think, and this is data. We need freedom to navigate -- beginning with the most basic brass tacks like naming the parties -- in order to hope to do any service to that here. Wnt (talk) 03:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
- I disengaged for a while. Life is too short. I'm gratified to see that, in my absence, the consensus has shifted and that the edit I advocated in this thread has been reinserted. Thank you. David in DC (talk) 18:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- I've also been disengaged and find the re-insert of the name a problem still. WNT you say
The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story.
I have one question to counter that. If instead of the actual name it said "David Spindler" what difference would that make to the reader? - The ex boyfriend is not a public figure. There is no mention of him on the internet at all which isn't linked to the gamergate controversy, he's not a public figure so naming him rather than merely referring to him as "the ex boyfriend" and similar is a direct violation of the sections of WP:BLP quoted above.
- Yes, he is a (limited) public figure at this point and no, it's not a violation of BLP. He has been named and his actions have been widely discussed in mainstream reliable sources as a Google News search reveals — there are literally hundreds of reliably-sourced news articles discussing Gjoni's role in launching this whole debacle. He has voluntarily given at least two media interviews on the subject. Given the significance of the allegations and insinuations in Quinn's life, it would be irresponsible for us to republish Gjoni's allegations in an essentially-anonymous fashion. It's a simple matter of source accountability. Eron Gjoni voluntarily and widely publicly posted a name-and-shame drama blog about his ex-lover — he can hardly claim any expectation of privacy when the consequences of his actions become international news.
- I agree that we should not delve extensively into his life, but a brief mention of the name of the person who touched off the firestorm which engulfed Zoe Quinn's life is entirely encyclopedic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Many apologies, i've discovered from your link the reason I haven't been finding sources is my notes have his surname spelt wrong. There's much more coverage out there than I had found. In the words of our law courts, objection withdrawn. That being said, the blog was published anonymously so there was an expectation of some level of privacy. It is the wide and particularly voluntary publication of his name that justifies this inclusion.SPACKlick (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I fully agree that if they had not become a key part of a several-months-running international news story, neither his name nor his allegations would be encyclopedic. Unfortunately for all involved, we're now kinda stuck. Thanks for taking a second look. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Many apologies, i've discovered from your link the reason I haven't been finding sources is my notes have his surname spelt wrong. There's much more coverage out there than I had found. In the words of our law courts, objection withdrawn. That being said, the blog was published anonymously so there was an expectation of some level of privacy. It is the wide and particularly voluntary publication of his name that justifies this inclusion.SPACKlick (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
FYCs
Having read far more than I would like about the whole imbroglio it seems surprising that this article does not cover the dispute with and allegations by the FYCs.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 11:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC).
Games
It would be good to include some of the video games Quinn has developed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:10, 12 November 2014 (UTC).
Gamergate
We now have a pretty extensive article on Gamergate. I've added a "main" template and trimmed back the Gamergate section. It could probably benefit from even heavier trimming. --TS 03:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Obviously, I'm not going to be able to do much about this pretty soon, but this is literally the most noteworthy thing that has happened involving Zoe Quinn and two paragraphs seems like the minimum amount necessary. Not to mention that if you are going to mention GamerGate and harassment then you should definitely give people some inkling in this article what it is about. The current highly sanitized version of this is bad enough, but making it to where it is basically saying "Some naughty people were really mean to Zoe. You should feel really sorry for her. It is so hard to be a woman," is just making a mockery of Misplaced Pages.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 08:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- The extensive Gamergate controversy article goes into detail about the series of false and sometimes maliciously false accusations that formed the basis for the character assassination and other attacks against Quinn and others. The detail you've added is redundant and, for a biography, rather too much. To be sure, it's a major event, but Quinn was just part of it and not an instigator at that. The malicious attacks are on Gamergate, not those targeted. That's why I've now removed that large addition. --TS 16:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's a summary of Gamergate controversy, of course it's redundant. You've trimmed away so much detail, however, that it barely says anything and certainly doesn't provide an accurate summary. If you're worried about repeating attacks against Quinn here (perfectly reasonable), it shouldn't be too difficult to remove that information without gutting the rest of the paragraph. Such as by replacing the second sentence of the longer version with something like:
Shortly after the game was released in August 2014, Eron Gjoni, Quinn's ex-boyfriend, published a blog post attacking Quinn.
lifebaka++ 17:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's a summary of Gamergate controversy, of course it's redundant. You've trimmed away so much detail, however, that it barely says anything and certainly doesn't provide an accurate summary. If you're worried about repeating attacks against Quinn here (perfectly reasonable), it shouldn't be too difficult to remove that information without gutting the rest of the paragraph. Such as by replacing the second sentence of the longer version with something like:
- The extensive Gamergate controversy article goes into detail about the series of false and sometimes maliciously false accusations that formed the basis for the character assassination and other attacks against Quinn and others. The detail you've added is redundant and, for a biography, rather too much. To be sure, it's a major event, but Quinn was just part of it and not an instigator at that. The malicious attacks are on Gamergate, not those targeted. That's why I've now removed that large addition. --TS 16:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
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