| Revision as of 08:59, 29 January 2015 editAshurbanippal (talk | contribs)513 edits →Fork← Previous edit | Revision as of 10:26, 29 January 2015 edit undoShmayo (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,224 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| Sounds like the disamb page fits perfect then. You are still missing my main point; on English Misplaced Pages we are not following what the Israeli, or any other, government has decided. Stop making new assumptions about the numbers, that is not what this is about. As I said, I will revert back to the disamb page, it's clear from above that this is very misleading. ] (]) 21:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC) | Sounds like the disamb page fits perfect then. You are still missing my main point; on English Misplaced Pages we are not following what the Israeli, or any other, government has decided. Stop making new assumptions about the numbers, that is not what this is about. As I said, I will revert back to the disamb page, it's clear from above that this is very misleading. ] (]) 21:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
| :Your argument that the article "just follows what the Israeli government says" is not true. And even if that were the case, it's not against Misplaced Pages's policy to present the point of view of a government with attribution and reliable sources. In this case the Israeli government simply recognized the request of a group of people who claim Aramean ancestry. Finally, you have to gain consensus BEFORE deleting sourced content or making big changes per ].--] (]) 08:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC) | :Your argument that the article "just follows what the Israeli government says" is not true. And even if that were the case, it's not against Misplaced Pages's policy to present the point of view of a government with attribution and reliable sources. In this case the Israeli government simply recognized the request of a group of people who claim Aramean ancestry. Finally, you have to gain consensus BEFORE deleting sourced content or making big changes per ].--] (]) 08:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
| ::Ashurbanippal, I ask you to read the discussion above, please. There are no 10.000 "Arameans in Israel". Maronites and some other now got the rights to be registered as Arameans, which is what the source says and I actually used it in the disamb page, have you read the news articles yourself? Do you agree that these "Arameans in Israel" are the same people named above? Of course you could present "the point of view of a government", which is what the disamb page did, but it shouldn't be presented in the way you want it to, beacause you said it yourself; that's POV. On English Misplaced Pages we follow common name, the Israeli government's decisions about which Hebrew term groups could be registered as is not determing what articles here on English Misplaced Pages should be called. If you insist on "Arameans in Israel" then you should ask for a move or merge on the current articles. ] (]) 10:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Fork
Arameans in Israel are no other than Maronites in Israel and Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Israel. The possibility to claim an Aramean identity is mentioned in the article Maronites in Israel and should be mentioned in the other one too, but I do not see the need of creating this fork. I suggest a disamb page here. Shmayo (talk) 21:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
- Not precise - the Maronites in Israel indeed largely overlap, but Aramean ethnicity is also given in Israel to Syrian Orthodox Christians. Assyrians on the other hand have a separate ethnic status from Arameans (including Maronites).GreyShark (dibra) 18:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
- We are saying the exact same thing. Maronites and Syriac Orthodox Chirstians (i.e. Assyrian/Syriac people) are the ones that now can be registered as Arameans if they want, that doesn't mean another article is needed for "Arameans in Israel". As I said, this should be written in the articles that I first mentioned. How is it not a fork? Shmayo (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
- As far as i understand, until October 2014, the adherents of the Maronite (some 7,000 people) and Syrian Orthodox Churches (some 500 people) were classified in Israel as Arabs (Arab Christians). However, the 1,000 strong community of ethnic Assyrians, adherents of the Nestorian Church, was long recognized as Assyrian and thus different from Arab Christians. Now with the change of registration, Syrian Orthodox, Maronites and few hundred other non-Assyrian and non-Armenian denominations who speak Aramaic and identify as such will be registered as Arameans.GreyShark (dibra) 16:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- We are saying the exact same thing. Maronites and Syriac Orthodox Chirstians (i.e. Assyrian/Syriac people) are the ones that now can be registered as Arameans if they want, that doesn't mean another article is needed for "Arameans in Israel". As I said, this should be written in the articles that I first mentioned. How is it not a fork? Shmayo (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Could you tell me where you have read that Jacobites and Nestorians are/were classified different (WP:NOR)? And even if that would be correct, this really doesn't mean that Maronites, Syrian-Orthodox Christians and the others will be classified as Arameans, those who want can now seek to be registered as Arameans, that is stated in the news articles, so I really don't understand why this article would include all of them. But most important, the Hebrew term isn't really relevant here on English Misplaced Pages. This article is nothing but a fork, Maronites in Israel and Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Israel now have the rights to be registered as Arameans in Israel if they want too, which should be mentioned in those two articles, but this fork isn't necessary. I'm still for the disamb page. Shmayo (talk) 17:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- Reagardless whether you are correct or not - i think it is an interesting question you are raising: how Israeli PIBA is defining Arameans and Assyrians. I'm 99% sure that Assyrian ethnicity has existed in Israel since long ago and it was applied to 1,000 people (Nestorians and maybe Chaldean Church adherents - all arrived to Nazareth, Jaffa and Jerusalem during the Hamidian massacres more than a century ago); "Arameans" on the other hand is now applied to local Christians in Israel with much deeper roots in the Levant. Let me try to find out from PIBA publications - maybe it will brighten the issue.GreyShark (dibra) 19:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- Both of us were wright but not precise - the PIBA table of ethnicities recognized by Israel includes 135 nominations (from Hebrew overview article), including:
- Assyrians (1,500 people belonging to Syrian Orthodox Church)
- Armeanians (several thousands)
- Arab Christians (127,000 - adherents of Orthodox Eastern, Latin, Melkite and Protestant Churches, and previously also Maronites and Syrian Catholic)
- Arameans (from October 2014 - about 10,000 Maronite Church adherents and 500 Syrian Catholics)
- I guess this makes it clear. Maybe we can merge Maronites in Israel and Arameans in Israel due to the dominance of the Maronites (though not entirely overlapping), but i would prefer Arameans in Israel as the remaining article, since this is the cited ethnicity, now recognized by Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 19:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
- Both of us were wright but not precise - the PIBA table of ethnicities recognized by Israel includes 135 nominations (from Hebrew overview article), including:
Thank you, interesting. According to the other articles Maronites (and others) have to seek to be registered as such. Then again, most important, the Hebrew terms or what is recognized is not relevant on English Wikipdia, especially therefore I'm for the disamb page. How is this article supposed to improve if we got another describing almost the exact same thing? I am willing to go with the merge if you don't think that a disamb page is good here, but I am not for the article remaining beacause of the reasons above, and even more after the numbers and statistics. Shmayo (talk) 13:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please note the date that article was published, no one could be registered as Aramean in 2013. All articles regarding the new rights are saying one have to seek to be registered as Aramean, making the number 10.500 incorrect. But as I said before, all this is irrelevant to English Misplaced Pages, these groups already got their articles here on English Misplaced Pages per common name. I hope we can work on a merge together, if you still think that the disamb page doesn't fit here. Shmayo (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Most likely - we have to wait and see how many Maronites and Syriac Catholics register as Arameans. It could be that only 600 would do so, making it very low-importance. The CBS of Israel publish information on Christians once a year - let's wait and see.GreyShark (dibra) 19:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
But my main point is that it doesn't matter, this is English Misplaced Pages. If the information is incorrect, as we know now, we can't wait and see. We could wait before improving the "Maronites in Israel" article with a new section about it, but as long as this is a fork, and an incorrect one, it can't stay. I will revert back to the disamb version as it is pretty clear from this discussion that there is no need for this misleading fork. Shmayo (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Let's be clear on this: i don't think this is a WP:FORK, because both topics are notable. Maronites are one of the sub-groups recognized as part of Arameans in Israel group, together with Syrian Catholics and some other denominations. Maronites do make the majority of recognized Arameans in Israel (so far 600 at least are recognized), but that doesn't make those topics the same.GreyShark (dibra) 20:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like the disamb page fits perfect then. You are still missing my main point; on English Misplaced Pages we are not following what the Israeli, or any other, government has decided. Stop making new assumptions about the numbers, that is not what this is about. As I said, I will revert back to the disamb page, it's clear from above that this is very misleading. Shmayo (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Your argument that the article "just follows what the Israeli government says" is not true. And even if that were the case, it's not against Misplaced Pages's policy to present the point of view of a government with attribution and reliable sources. In this case the Israeli government simply recognized the request of a group of people who claim Aramean ancestry. Finally, you have to gain consensus BEFORE deleting sourced content or making big changes per WP:BRD.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 08:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Ashurbanippal, I ask you to read the discussion above, please. There are no 10.000 "Arameans in Israel". Maronites and some other now got the rights to be registered as Arameans, which is what the source says and I actually used it in the disamb page, have you read the news articles yourself? Do you agree that these "Arameans in Israel" are the same people named above? Of course you could present "the point of view of a government", which is what the disamb page did, but it shouldn't be presented in the way you want it to, beacause you said it yourself; that's POV. On English Misplaced Pages we follow common name, the Israeli government's decisions about which Hebrew term groups could be registered as is not determing what articles here on English Misplaced Pages should be called. If you insist on "Arameans in Israel" then you should ask for a move or merge on the current articles. Shmayo (talk) 10:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC)