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Gamestar.de addition

"eines betrogenen Ex Freundes" = "a cheated exboyfriend" WP:BLP (and bad prose)? (NM. Has since been addressed since I first looked.) I would like to review the article, but it's behind a paywall. Ideas how to review it? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Sent Avono (talk) 21:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I object to the sentence that was added: "Gamergate supporters saw theses op-eds as a conspiracy to stifle their press criticism with a smear campaign which Michael Graf of Gamestar described as understandable but thought them to be an overreaction towards gamers who had overreacted to the overreaction of an ex-boyfriend." There is an elide part of the translation: "Dieser Eindruck ist nachvollziehbar, an eine Kampagne glauben wir aber nicht, sondern einfach an eine komplette Überreaktion. Eine Überreaktion auf die Überreaktion vieler Spieler auf die Überreaktion eines betrogenen Ex-Freundes." = "This impression is understandable, but we don't believe in this campaign, instead it is simply a complete overreaction - an overreaction to the overreaction of many gamers to the overreaction of a cheated-on ex-boyfriend." The key phrase that is missing is "but we do not believe it". I think the most that could be added without including "but we don't believe in this campaign" is "Gamestar thinks that GameGate is an overreaction". (And I don't think that's so interesting.) The sentence as added mangles the original opinion. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the prose is atrocious, not sure if it works in German or not. Perhaps we could phrase it more as "an overreaction by all involved." or something like that. — Strongjam (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Works fine in German. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Translation Note: "an eine Kampagne glauben wir aber nicht" could be translated "but we do not give credence to the campaign" or "but we do not give credence to the campaign's existence". The sense of the sentence doesn't work in English quite right. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Translation Note2: betrogenen is "deluded" in the sense of "hoodwinked" the idiomatic translation is cheated-on. However, the cheated-on runs into WP:BLP ForbiddenRocky (talk) 06:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@ForbiddenRocky: You added "not credible" (diff). The author says , statt einer Kampagne steckt aber wohl eher eine Überreaktion dahinter." – "eher" means "wahrscheinlicher", which translates to "more likely" or "more probable". He doesn't explicitly say "not credible". Adding that dependent clause emphasizes a part of the sentence that wasn't emphasized by the author. Further "eher" or "wahrscheinlicher" is a comparative adjective/adverb. Can you please revert your edit? -- Maklaan (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

This part: "an eine Kampagne glauben wir aber nicht" I think the people using auto translations are not understanding this phrase.ForbiddenRocky (talk) 01:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok the German part in the footnote does not say the overreaction is "not credible". Please add the complete quote to the footnote if it isn't accurate. However even with this taken into account, I'm not sure a verbatim translation of the German phrase is a best idea. How about: "This was described by GameStar as understandable overreaction." This phrase is better than what's there, however I'd probably be prefer for that quote to be gone altogether, I don't see what it adds. Cupidissimo (talk) 22:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Cathy Young / Allum Bokhari opinions on Gamergate demographics.

After trying to reword it a bit to avoid making it sound like we were citing their opinion pieces for matters of fact, I removed the sentences citing Cathy Young and Allum Bokhari's opinions on Gamergate' diversity (that is, their statements that it contains women and minorities and therefore is diverse, for some meaning of diverse; and, implicitly, that this is a meaningful and important thing to say.) The problems are twofold: First, there's no reason to think we should give their opinions that much weight, given that they're just two random libertarian commentators; and second, as far as I can tell, they're replying to something that nobody else in the article is saying. That is, we have no sources asserting that Gamergate doesn't contain women or minorities, so we have only their personal opinions and perceptions of the conflict to indicate that this statement is important. They assert that they are answering some common argument by giving their opinions on Gamergate's demographics, but absent any actual sources outside their two opinion-pieces even touching on it as relevant, it feels like giving space to them here is giving their personal opinions WP:UNDUE weight. --Aquillion (talk) 04:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

We could say so much more about GamerGate if we had some demographic information but the nature of an online, decentralized, leaderless movement with no membership criteria and varying levels of participation prevents researchers from asserting exactly how diverse the group is. What is required is knowing how many women or minorities are participating compared to the total membership number and none of that information is available or is possible unless GamerGate evolves into a more structured organization. I know that I, for one, would be thrilled if we had some demographic data to incorporate into this article but that is unlikely to exist at this stage of the movement. Liz 11:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The wording of the Ysmall oung/Bokhari-paragraph was pretty carefully hedged by assigning it to specific individuals. We don't have any super-conclusive statistical evidence about male dominance or anything else either, but this fact is repeated all over the article. Most criticism regarding misogyny is aimed at males or assumes that it's mostly perpetrated by males. The "we've never said it's not this way"-argument seems unfair. Overall, I'm very much against giving undue weight to pro-Gamergate forum nonsense, but I don't see how this would fall under that category.

Aquillion, what's the reason for singling out Young and Bokhari as "random libertarian commentators"? We've provided them all of two sentences on an issue which is a matter of opinion overall. How does that equate to "much weight"?

Peter 11:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

There are countless bloggers, pundits, and commentators who have posted opinion-pieces about the article's subject; our job as encyclopedia-writers is to parse from this the most relevant strains of thought (as well as comments from people directly related to it or particularly noteworthy in the field) and cover them in accordance to how they are represented in reliable source. Bokhari and Young's opinions don't fall into any of those categories -- they're commentators without any particular experience or expertise relevant to the topic, ones who openly say that they're interpreting the topic through their relatively WP:FRINGE strain of libertarian politics. This makes them generally inappropriate for the article. Of course there may be other commentators we could drop, and you should point them out if there's any you object to in particular, but I singled those two out because they don't particularly seem to represent any larger stream of thought in reliable sources beyond their own views, and because it feels like they were added back when people were using quotes from whatever commentators they could find to argue over the topic by proxy. We've cleaned it up and organized things a lot better since then, but in general I do feel that the article could use less focus on opinion-pieces from all sides. Most of the other ones, though, at least serve to characterize the general coverage of the topic or to provide in-depth analysis from well-known highly-credible sources, while eg. Young's opinion piece doesn't really serve a purpose beyond informing the reader of her personal opinions and views (which, again, if I read her right she is candidly saying are more about her libertarianism than about Gamergate.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:23, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

These two opinions have adequately been pov attributed, their opinions would only be undue if they were presented as fact which they are not. The reader is told from which political spectrum they come from giving the reader a context on how to weigh them Avono (talk) 12:10, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I dont think highlighting Young / Bokhari's "They are not all white guys!" is particularly relevant. Our article never makes that claim and I dont think any of the sources ever make that claim either. Its a pointless counter-argument to an argument that doesn't exist.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Not when we have an entire subsection on "Misogyny and antifeminism". Avono (talk) 12:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"There's a girl in our hate group - we cannot be misogynist!!!!!" ??? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Overall, we've been quite stern about WP:RS and other policies with those who want to include all kinds of random opinions from YouTube. In this case, I'm not seeing policy-related arguments against inclusion of Young and Bokhari. The wording before this edit made a perfectly matter-of-fact statement that two reliable sources (out of God dozens and dozens) have made the argument that Gamergate people might be more diverse. It was a single sentence after an appropriately long explanation of the majority opinions. What's the point in removing that by referring to extended conclusions drawn from their opinion pieces?

Peter 14:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

This comment is not helpful, and does nothing to advance this article. Demographic information, among other issues raised by these pieces, are very relevant to the article, and these sorts of comments are not arguments against it. If you have a good, constructive argument against using them, please share them. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

While demographics might be helpful, there are none and cannot be any as you cannot have demographics for a non entity. Young / Bokhari 's opinions on the matter are no more than guesses. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Any statement about the gender or minority makeup (beyond the fact that there ARE at least some women and minorities participating) would merely be a personal impression. This is especially true on Twitter, reddit and 8chan where 1) users are frequently anonymous and 2) you can not even rely on gendered usernames to be accurate. Liz 15:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

We have plenty of similar claims in the article about various aspects of the movement. Is there a reason beyond the sources being more neutral toward GG that we should seek to exclude this, or should we start the work of excising similar guesses? Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:17, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

If you have reason to believe a reliable source we have used is not reliable for this article, you're more than welcome to bring it up. PeterTheFourth (talk) 15:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

This isn't an issue of a reliable source, it's about the supposed "guesses." Either reliable sources are used for such "guesses," or they're not. This picky-choosy stuff that seems to be motivated by position rather than claim is the problem. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

If you have reason to believe a reliable source is 'guessing' about something, you're more than welcome to bring it up, as other editors have here. PeterTheFourth (talk) 15:24, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

For example, the issue of the negative/positive tweets from a few weeks back. But this is about using this specific topic and the questionable protests in play. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:35, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

There was no "guessing" there. A reliable source who frequently analyzes popular sentiment hired a professional social media analytics firm and presented the results. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

(unindent) The gaming Community, industry and gamer identity are described as "male-dominated", "traditionally-male", "predominantly young male". There's also a long list of scathing opinions of the Gamergate movements, often with plenty of quotes. Rightfully so, in my view! Sexism is rampant and the male dominance is obvious. This is also recognized by the vast majority of commentators.

And then we had a single mention of two dissenting voices regarding the composition of the Gamergate movement in a single sentence. This is now gone with the motivation that these particular opinions aren't confirmed by hard evidence. That's a rather uncompromising stance to take regarding minority opinions. Please reconsider this.

Peter 16:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"male-dominated", "traditionally-male", "predominantly young male" do not in any way contradict or need to be balanced by "but there is probably a girl or two in there somewhere, too". There is no evidence that women played any major role in any part of GG: "male-dominated", "traditionally-male", "predominantly young male" are accurate reflections of the voices that have had any impact. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

If we have a reliable source that can point out that there are, in fact, women involved in the movement, what reason would we exclude it? Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Neither our article nor any of the reliable sources we are using says "There are only boys involved" - so there is no reason to specifically call out "Hey there are some girls" - unless it is to attempt to make a point like "Hey there is a girl involved so we cannot be misogynistic!" - why do you think it is valuable? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:02, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

. --MASEM (t) 17:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

As Masem highlighted, the "male dominated" narrative has some holes in it upon deeper inspection. The article should clearly note that the movement itself is more diverse than perceived, as we have sources that demonstrate that obvious truth. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

1) What holes? none of those links say as far as I can see says either "Gamergate is only boys" nor "Theres a large percentage of girls involved in gamergate". 2) "Male dominated" does not mean "There are no girls" any more than an "objective review" rates a game on how fun it is. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The cut text from Young's piece from the article was Although coverage has generally described Gamergate supporters as predominantly male, libertarian Cathy Young has said that she believes there are vocal female voices within it. in other words specifically addressing the preception of GG being male-dominated. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) again, that takes a complete misreading of "male dominated" to be "only boys" and then takes some "vocal female voices" to be "significant level of female participation." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

That's not what the statement is saying; no one has said "males only" here. Young's point is that while GG has been characterized as male-dominated, she believes there are much larger female numbers in that population that the characterization "male-dominated" belies. That's a completely fair counterpoint to include. --MASEM (t) 17:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

And what is her expertise in identifying the gender of anonymous twitter and chan posters that makes her unique interpretation one that should be recognized within the article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The same expertise that the rest of the press has used, which is none. No one has undertaken or demonstrated a complete attempt to quantify the population of the GG movement at all, certainly not to the point that they can factually state anything (whether this is do to the unwillingness to do so, or the difficulty in doing so, we don't know). It is perceived as male dominated from several factors (the misogynyistic nature of harassment, that the tactics are those associated with a male-dominated culture, that this is a reaction towards an increasing diversity of the gamer population that puts the traditional gamer male at a minority), and certainly this is a logical conclusion, but still remains a supposition with no factual evidence to back it up. Young's point, which is just as valid as every other reporters' point which is using what can be visible gleened from the public forums, is that she feels the population of females is more than what "male-dominated" implies. This point is completely appropriate to include as a counterpoint. --MASEM (t) 17:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

What is your basis for the claim "the same expertise that the rest of the press has used, none"? And again, the fact that only Young is coming to that conclusion puts her interpretation seriously into the WP:UNDUE column-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

We'd have to really trim this article down if we were going to limit it to widely-held analyses. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I have seen zero data that shows the estimated breakdown of the GG movement population by gender or any other statistic. As such, there is no evidence to back up the claim "male-dominated", and so we must state this as a claim by the press since the statement is contentious. A single sentence counterstatement is definitely not UNDUE weight, and Thargor rightly notes. --MASEM (t) 18:11, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

the data that you have is irrelevant. The analysis from multiple reliable sources is what we go by, and present it in appropriate proportion to which it is held. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The analysis is basically nonexistent. That's the point Masem correctly makes. We have a good claim from a reliable source that tries to break it down, and a lot of unsupported assertions. We go by the evidence, which is what is actually appropriate. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

We do NOT have a "good claim from a reliable source " - we have a claim that is not supported by any expertise or data that varies widely from the other reliable sources. Thats clear WP:UNDUE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Cathy Young is a well-known, well-regarded journalist making a claim based on data she's collected as part of her expertise that does not vary from any other reliable source's evidence. It's undue not to note it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

And again as the sole person who has come to this interpretation, how is it not inappropriate to include it?-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

For the same reason other "sole" "interpretations" are included. Which is it going to be? Sole interpretations reported in reliable sources are okay, or not okay? Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

If you have a specific "sole interpretation" that you think does not appropriately represent mainstream views, please identify it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Recognize that UNDUE does not say to omit opinions, just to make sure their weight given is proportional to viewpoints. One sentence from a noted commentator is completely in line with NPOV policy, and in fact more so required per NPOV to be impartial if such opinion clearly exists from someone that is an expert in this area (gender-related studies). --MASEM (t) 23:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Obvious fallacy that we need to include everyone. Of course we omit when the size of the group holding an opinion is non measurable. And counter to policy Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:24, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

So we can measure this, and it's sourced reliably to boot. Do you have an actual argument against inclusion here? Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

As an objective source, to not include anything that is from the opposite side of the conflict is not appropriate. We aren't going every to achieve balance, but you cannot flat out omit or attempt to censor anything that is counter to the predominate point of view. That's not what NPOV nor FRINGE says. --MASEM (t) 23:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:V is not WP:FRINGE. It clearly says that just being verifiable is not a reason to include. And WP:NPOV sub WP:UNDUE is clear - we present the views as close as we can to follow the reliable sources. That one reliable sources has the view that "my personal opinion is that girls arent as small a portion of gamergate as everybody else presents" is a clear VERY minority view for which we need a very good reason other than "its verifiable". IF she came from an expertise in analyzing gender of anonymous postings, then that would be a reason to include. we need to include something that doesnt make gamergate look like its all the stereotypical socially maladjusted gamerboy is not a valid reason - it is in fact prohibited by policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

We cannot say that RSes are wrong or counter their points in our words (that's OR, as outlined in the Newsweek article discuss before), but if they have not provided a means to judge their statements as factual, we are not required to take their statements as factually right (per WP:NPOV); instead simply presenting them as claims attributed to those sources. This stays true to the RSes and still will represent the predominate view, but avoid having WP make statements of fact that have no basis of evidence at all behind it. --MASEM (t) 18:24, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think this has gone beyond article-related discussion. Could you consider focusing on content instead of one another's opinions?

Peter 18:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I have followed GamerGate since late September and there are definitely women playing a role. From Christina Sommers to blogger Liana K, there have been women writing and talking about GamerGate in a positive way. I know gaming blog articles and YouTube videos aren't considered reliable sources except when they are not evaluating the arguments of what is stated but as evidence that these perspectives do, indeed, exist. As for male-dominated, one can easily find statistics from gaming associations that state that gamers are equally divided these days between men and women (partially due to mobile games). So, it would be simple to argue for the presence of women but for "male-dominated" claims, you'd have to track down more reliable sources. I believe that it is true but I'm not sure where that claim has been presented as a fact.

Ironically, it was a misunderstanding of these gender dynamics that partially caused GamerGate. Due to the statistics of more women involved in gaming, those "Gamers are over" were pointing out that the stereotype of young teen male gamer no longer reflected reality. This made the #NotYourShield campaign a little ludicrous because the authors WERE saying that gaming scene is more diverse. Liz 17:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Where has CHS said that she supports Gamergate? She has come out swinging against "feminists taking games away from boys" but thats not the same. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:29, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can outright call her a Gamergate supporter, but she is absolutely opposed to those who are opposing Gamergate: Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't particularly agree with either Young or Bokhari, especially Young , but I believe their libertarian views and criticism of liberal sentiment are of interest. I'm attempting a compromise wording focused more on opinions and views on reporting.

Peter 17:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think Liz's points above raises other points - 1) "misogyny in gaming" and "male-dominated" does not mean "there are no women in gaming". "misogyny in gaming" and "male-dominated" go to the power dynamic where women are attacked more. Trying to balance this with Young and Bokhari is wrong. 2) "stereotype of young teen male gamer no longer reflected reality" & "saying that gaming scene is more diverse" speak to diversity in gaming. Trying to balance this with Young and Bokhari is wrong. 3) Young and Bokhari are claiming diversity within GamerGate the context of this matters because part of that claim flies in the face of the analysis of #notyourshield. Unless Young and Bokhari have numbers to back up their opinion, I find it hard to justify including their opinion to address the idea of diversity of within GamerGate. 4) If only the pro-GamerGate side is claiming that the anti-GamerGate side is claiming that GamerGate is "male-dominated", and then Young and Bokhari are trying to rebut that idea, and then we, as Wiki editors, are setting up a strawman by proxy - an unsupported claim with responded to with an unsupported opinoin.

In any case, before including Young and Bokhari, we had better figure out what they are response to. Because from the above debate, it's not clear there is a consensus on that. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

And a parallel analysis to the gender composition exists WRT political composition ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

focusing on "the press should be saying 'but theres girls too' " misses the key points these two are making in the arguments. Young is stating that those women who are involved with gamergate are being called out as "gender traitors" and Bokhari is criticizing the coverage in general, from the starting point of "theres always two sides".-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Re: Young: I don't think we can use Young as the source for the point to her own counter-point. That's bordering on putting up a strawman argument. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 04:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Re: Bokhari: Which two sides? The one where GamerGate is about ethics? This is largely covered including Bokhari would be UNDUE weight. What are the two sides Bokhari says exists that isn't about the ethics argument? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 04:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Who knows what he meant by that overly simplistic way of viewing the world. You can ask him i guess. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Political Views

I apologize in advance, I'm honestly so confused by this whole section that I'm not sure what question I'm trying to ask other than "What are we trying to do here?"

I'm not really sure what any of it has to do with political views other than the one line in the second paragraph about exploitation by conservative pundits, and even that is a bit of a stretch. What does the Gamer Identity have to do with political views? Or Misogyny and Anti-Feminism? Whose political views are they supposed to be?

I get the feeling that the section might be a remnant from an older article structure, but even if it isn't I think that we really need to look at it and figure out what we're trying to say, because it isn't clear at all. Kaciemonster (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

It was "politics" in the grander version and not specific electoral, but you are right that as a header it was misleading replaced it with a more accurate "Social and cultural implications" - does that work better? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's definitely better than what it was before, thanks. Kaciemonster (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

There used to be claims that GamerGate was along left-right lines. And then there were claims from within GamerGate that it wasn't. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 19:17, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think there's definitely room for a right wing politics subsection in this newly renamed section. It only just hit me, but we completely ignored that whole event where a republican city council candidate ran a pro-GamerGate election campgain.. Conversely we've had the Tea Party condemn Gamergate, which also isnt mentioned currently. Alongside the Sam Biddle stuff about "right wing vultures," and Young and Bokhari on right-libertarian alignment, I think there's a fair amount to work on here. Opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosstopher (talk • contribs)

This is also where stuff like how Milo Y. and Christina Hoff Sommers are considered aligned with GG to promote their right-wing aspects (which is sourcable to good RS) can be stated. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't this article already somewhat too long? Just because things happened in relation to gamergate doesn't mean we need to cover absolutely everything. GoldenRing (talk) 00:46, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

No, its only 71k of prose - in the range where we don't have to split but be aware of that. Mind you, there is a lot that can be trimmed still from the article (we're still too quote-y, and where there is detailed minuta are things that can be summarized better in all parts of the article), but we should be identifying people that are named/notable that have been associated with either side of GG, like both Milo Y. and CHS. --MASEM (t) 02:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Before someone throws WP:TOOBIG up, that's 71k including HTML. 43k of plain text prose. — Strongjam (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops, yes, I misread the script output. We're well under any severe text size issues. --MASEM (t) 03:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, I guess. I wasn't thinking so much of WP:TOOBIG as just that it covers far too much for what the subject is. GoldenRing (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I've been giving this a lot of thought and I don't think the problem is that the article is too long or covering too much. I think the problem is that we're taking too long to get to the actual point of what we're trying to say. I've said it before (many times), but the article is basically incomprehensible to someone that doesn't already know everything about Gamergate. There are a couple of areas where we mention a person before we get to the section on why they're relevant (Milo Yiannopoulos receiving a syringe is mentioned 4 sections before his role in the controversy is described), or we split up related events (Operation Disrespectful Nod section describes it as a reaction to the end of the gamer identity articles but isn't discussed alongside the gamer identity section, basically everything in the industry response section, 90% of the Operation Baby Seal section is Operation Disrespectful Nod related). In the Gamer Identity section, we spend 2 paragraphs giving background information before we really explain how it relates to Gamergate at all. It's not really an easy fix situation either, where we can just move a few sentences around in the current structure.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that this article is doing a really bad job of getting to the point, and we can't keep making excuses to push off conversation about it. Kaciemonster (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

SVU Episode

Regarding this bit "though commentators also noted the episode exaggerated events beyond what has actually happened within Gamergate.". I think this is referring to the kidnapping that's in the show? I appreciate that nothing like that has thankfully happened in real-life, but if we're going to note that we need to be more specific, and I don't see anything in the sources that directly support this assertion. — Strongjam (talk) 17:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It was my initial impression I got, but that was my first reading, I'm fine with taking that out. I don't want to be having a review of the episode here, only at least establish that it was seen as a take on GG, albeit clumsy in its handling of gaming and online technology. --MASEM (t) 17:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

As a note, coming from doing a lot of work on plot and primary sourcing, we (WP that is) cannot infer that the episode was related to GG just from the primary source (which otherwise did not mention the term at all); we need to attribute that statement to commentators that it was to avoid the original research. --MASEM (t) 17:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, was going to self-revert, but see you've fixed it. — Strongjam (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

No worries; and to be clear if the producers come out and say "Yes, this was based on GG", we can nix that clarification. but so far, I've not seen anything. (I'd also like to try to get a non-tech/gaming source to add to that but ArsTech & the Verge are sufficiently distanced from core gaming sites for that opinion). --MASEM (t) 17:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

In a perfect world we could say it's was a sensationalized take on the controversy, but I don't think the sources come right out and say that. — Strongjam (talk) 18:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, yes, this is Kain, but he is quoting Quinn noting how bad the end of the episode was (the female harassed decided to leave the industry instead of fight), which has been a point the other sources have picked up, in addition to the fumbling around with gamer and technology jargon. I don't have time to check immediately but if other sources repeat what Quinn (or Sarkeesian or Wu) have said about the ending being insulting, that should be included here. --MASEM (t) 22:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

CORRECTION REQUESTED PLEASE-the episode aired on February 11, 2015. I don't want to start any trouble here but I also noticed-(in the SVU episode), that they used the tern, "Social Justice Warrior"/"SJW" more than once, that cinched it for me that it had ties to GG. A ref. from forbes.com:http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/02/12/law-order-svu-takes-on-gamergate-cant-press-reset-button/ TeeVeeed (talk) 01:04, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. Masem linked to that ref already. It's not a Forbes article, rather a contributor blog from a writer we rely too heavily on already for a WP:NEWSBLOG. I'd rather avoid it if we can unless it gives us something essential. — Strongjam (talk) 01:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

SJW has been used prior to GG, GG may have made it more mainstream, but again, my point above - it is still OR to directly say that it was about GG just because things mirrored if if the term GG wasn't named on the show; however, with the use of secondary sources (included already) that say this, we avoid the OR claim. And I do agree I'd rather use another source than Kain's piece to make the statement on how Quinn felt about the episode in particularly the ending (quoting her twitter directly isn't great) but so far the only other source that seems to quote that is Jezebel and that's not great either. If push comes to shove and these are the only sources that use it, I don't see a problem using Kain as long as we limit it to affirming that this is what Quinn said. --MASEM (t) 01:37, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed here, not completely opposed, just rather something else first. Also, we need a source for the amalgamation bit in the current paragraph, I'm not seeing it in the current sources. — Strongjam (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

TY for fixing that!Strongjam and the explanation about that source. I'm a pretty big Law and Order watcher and I was a little surprized about this one too since the Law & Order slogan is "Ripped from the Headlines", and generally they mean newspaper headlines which didn't give GG enormous newspaper coverage-(afaik-but if you're working on this article you probably have a few)......I also do not know if Law & Order ever directly confirms what stories they are highlighting, and they are known for mixing-it-up, or twisting a few different current-events together , adding a rape or assault, and they definitely do not mimic story details or names. TeeVeeed (talk) 02:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a note that I removed the part about an "amalgamation" of Sarkeesian and Quinn. I checked the sources and neither mentioned Quinn when talking about the main character. Both did say she resembled Sarkeesian though. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Wu directly writes about the episode in Bustle: . Note she calls out the female character as an amalgamation of her, Quinn, and Sarkeesian. Also note: there's more than enough already that the episode itself is notable for its own page, though I don't know if we need it ; what we talk about the episode here should be as it reflects on GG, while if the episode page was made, it can encompasses all that. (Note, for example, the part about the Sony hack is not appropriate here, but good at the episode page, should that be made). --MASEM (t) 04:20, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Glad there's at least a reason behind that wording, but two secondary sources against a primary sources about written by the subject... call me leery... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Omission of a statement isn't the same as denial or negation of a statement. And in this case, I would put the primary source as the authoritative expert (lacking the writers' or producers' comments) if the character was an amalgamation of themselves than a secondary source, attributed to Wu of course. But now I know that all three have commented in a negative manner on the episode, just not all through good sourcing routes. --MASEM (t) 04:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamer identity: 'Within a day'

Hi! I'm removing the reinsertion of 'within a day' from the third paragraph under the Gamer Identity heading in Social and Cultural Implications. I sincerely do not understand why it's important that the article include this, given both the fact that we already have 'shortly following', making the phrasing 'within a day' is redundant, and that this phrasing is not used or noted as important by our sources. If you'd like to reinsert it, please explain here why it's important. Cheers! PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you as well, and have reverted once, PeterTheFourth. There is no need to discuss this factoid, unless reliable, independent sources discuss it in enough detail to justify its inclusion under due weight. Cullen Let's discuss it 08:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I've re-added it, happy to explain. Its relevance is to this sentence later in the paragraph: Gamergate supporters saw these op-eds as a conspiracy to stifle their criticism of the press with a smear campaign... Gamergate supporters view their simultaneous publication as evidence of a coordinated effort or "conspiracy" as we call it. Cullen328, regarding your comment on an RS for publication dates, the articles themselves are the source; see publication dates. —EncyclopediaBob (talk) 08:28, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason 'within a day' is necessary where 'shortly following' does not suffice, Bob? PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure. Other than precision (which is always good), the more synchronous the timing the more clearly the reader understands GG's motivations for believing the effort was coordinated. If the articles were published all within a minute, certainly you'd agree that's relevant to our later claim that GG viewed this as a coordinated effort; within the same week, maybe not -- rather than interpret that ourselves, it's better to present the facts as accurately as possible and allow the reader to interpret them. —EncyclopediaBob (talk) 08:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm really not seeing the specific need for this (redundant) phrasing. Is it an important point in the sources we're using? Do the sources we cite for GG's motivation in believing this was a conspiracy cite that they were created 'within days' as a reason for their paranoia? PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

No reliable source has commented that said publications were "within a day." In addition, EB's list of sources are not anywhere "nearly a dozen," nor are they all "op-eds," as two are merely personal blogs. Hipocrite (talk) 09:24, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Peter: your initial concern seemed to be that timing of publication wasn't relevant. If I haven't sufficiently addressed that concern, let's continue discussion. Hipocrite, the source that describes the timing (Auerbach) uses "concurrently" to describe their publication, which I wouldn't object to. I have no opinion on the number (or category) of these publications other than that they should reflect reliable sources. —EncyclopediaBob (talk) 09:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

No, my concern was that the phrasing was A) awkward and redundant B) not important enough (aka our sources do not emphasise it) to cite specific time periods on. PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

This phrase has been in the article since the last draft merge. We should be reverting to restore the phrase as it was then before its recent removal. PeterTheFourth seems to be confused on the wording - "within a day" has absolutely nothing to do with "shortly following the initial accusations towards Quinn". Perhaps it is the phrasing. As for the sources -> I’m not above critiquing my readers. I think they deserve critique just as harshly as the press and the industry itself. But it is odd when you see nearly a dozen articles within a 24 hour period pop up declaring the annihilation of an identity. It reeks of the worst sort of identity politics. source 1 but the gaming journalists unwisely decided to respond to the growing, nebulous anger by declaring that “gamers” were dead. Such articles appeared concurrently in Gamasutra ... source 2 EncyclopediaBob - there's no need to look at the publication dates - source 1 is clear. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 12:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I do think it is notable that so many blog articles that were basically on the same subject and were opinion pieces were printed over such a short period of time. But not all of those articles focusing on "gamers are over" were published within a day of each other. Many were published on the same day but all of them were published over a period of days. But I think if we are going to use "within a day", we can only cite the number of blog articles that were published on that day (or a 24 hour period). If we are going to include all blog articles on this subject, the wording has to be more vague like, "shortly following" or "over the next week" or something like that.

But I do think the timing of this is a significant aspect to the controversy. According to pro-GamerGate sources I've read, these opinion pieces being published so closely together was more significant in mobilizing gamers than the Zoe blog post. I'm sure I could find a source for that claim but it would likely be a SPS like a blog post. Liz 14:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The key about the timing of "Death of gamers" from the standpoint of the overall situation is that it inflamed the GG movement crowd to start doing these targetted advertising denial campaigns. They might have been fueled on a belief that there was a conspiracy behind these articles all being posted at the same time, but even ignoring that (which we can't readily source) we can say that the amount of the dislike the gamer identity got in a brief period of time was what triggered them to start to find a way to fight back, hence operation Disresepctful Nod, for example. Hence noting the period as tied to the movement's actions is important. --MASEM (t) 17:23, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

How reliable are the claims of harassment?

Absent some FBI report or some such proof, it's wrong for us to state that #gamergate supporters harassed this woman as described in the article. It is wrong for us to repeat her claim that #gamergate supporters harassed her in these ways, let alone that they did so because of the motivations ascribed to them by her, without some proof from a police investigation or other informed expert opinion demonstrating that #gamergate supporters did indeed harass this woman, or that they don't want women involved in video games. Reason and evidence dictate that the harassment could have come from third parties, , or other possibilities. Yet the overall effect on a naive reader of this article as written at last edit is to come away with the impression that #gamergate supporters for sure harass this woman, but this has not been proven. This is not acceptable because mere allegations by partisans of one party to a dispute cast by another party to the dispute, and motivations ascribed to the other party to this dispute, these things should not be expressed as proven reasonably enough to be in an encyclopedia article, without reference to conclusions of investigation by informed disinterested experts. Chrisrus (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why reliable sources saying that gamergate supporters harassed someone is not sufficiently reliable to include? Hipocrite (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The question is whether the evidence supports the claims by the sources. For example, the claims made by the Guardian about the ArbCom ruling were reliable sourced, but not accurate, so we opted not to use them. This is a valid question that I know has been raised a few times, but has been attacked by others as a BLP violation for even being raised. Maybe we can actually have a discussion as to how to properly attribute the claims? Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

"The experience of Anita Sarkeesian is not just an isolated incident of an attempt to harass a woman out of participation in gaming culture. Over the months of August and September in 2014, an independent game developer by the name of Zoe Quinn and her friends have found themselves the target of an equally misogynist backlash by a coordinated conspiracy. While originally labelled under the hashtag ‘#quinnspiracy’, it evolved into a collective movement known as ‘gamergate’." — Heron, Michael James; Belford, Pauline; Goker, Ayse (2014). "Sexism in the circuitry". ACM SIGCAS Computers and Society. 44 (4). Association for Computing Machinery: 18–29. doi:10.1145/2695577.2695582. ISSN 0095-2737.

The paper also goes through some chat logs and analysis of the harassment. There is no reasonable debate among reliable sources about whether some GG supporters have harassed people. — Strongjam (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

That's not, of course, what's being questioned. There's little question that there was harassment in some form, the question is about other forms: the claims about police filings and FBI investigations and so on. That is not as "well settled" as some want it to be, and, having been dealing with this page for a while, the "settlement" far too often was "shut up, we're just going with it." There's a reason topic bans were levied. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

IMO it depends on exactly what you're questioning with regards to harassment. If you're claiming that all the harassment is made up by the victims and none of it has happened, that is very clearly a BLP violation as you're accusing someone of malicious "professional victim"ing without any reliably sourced evidence. If you're questioning whether Gamergate are the ones who are carrying out the harassment, I cant see how that could possibly be construed as a BLP violation. But on that topic, the article never explicitly says that "gamergate supporters" (a loose and baggy term that could mean practically anything), are the ones responsible for harassment. Just that harassment has been done through the Gamergate hashtag (it has, see Brandwatch survey), and on sites like 8chan (it has, see doxing of Brianna Wu). I dont see the problem here, unless someone can point me to a specific example I've missed.Bosstopher (talk) 17:34, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is claiming that "all the harassment is made up." The question is about attribution and confirmation, it appears, and is a valid one. If that is Chrisrus's angle, I don't support it, but there is a broader question that we should be looking at now that things have flared down a bit. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

There is absolutely no question. We have extensive reports in newspapers, including specific reports of police filings (Wu, Quinn, Harper) and police statements (Sarkeesian). A We have a report in the New Yorker, whose fact checking has long been legendary. We have academic papers published by professional societies. The repeated insinuation that widely-reported harassment did not occur or was faked are a BLP violation, and their constant repetition here is merely a ploy to publicize baseless attacks on the integrity of GamerGate victims. This thread should be hatted at once or deleted; this has been discussed (too often) and settled (too many times) already. MarkBernstein (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Mark, this sort of vitriol is not helpful. Please stop assuming the worst of editors you disagree with. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

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