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Landmark Worldwide

The above article and topic area was recently encouraged to have more eyes on it by the ArbCom. I have started a new thread on the talk page of that article, at Talk:Landmark Worldwide#"Comment" committee persuant to a suggestion I made during the arbitration to try to get some specific editors who might have some sort of experience in similar topics involved, and have actually already binged them in the thread. It is of course understood that none of those individuals, or any others, will have more authority than any others, but I thought their input might be welcome in drafting one or more RfCs on the topic down the road. Of course, any additional eyes would be welcome as well, particularly as I have no reason at this point to think that any of the individuals who I pinged have even responded yet. John Carter (talk) 23:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Thanks for starting this thread. I dove into the article a bit, and oh boy there is a big problem there. Significant criticism is being repeatedly removed, with attempted justifications via long, tendentious arguments on the talk page. Many of the arguments make little sense. Apparently the article has been drifting away from NPOV over the years; see e.g. this revision from 2011, which I got from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Landmark_Worldwide/Evidence#Behavior. I am surprised the arbitration case did not lead to sanctions on any editors. I've even noticed a few borderline cases of intimidation since I've been there. Manul ~ talk 06:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with Manul that there is a problem at that article. I have tagged it again for NPOV, as there are multiple active talk page discussions related to POV issues. I would characterise the issue as see-sawing rather than one-sided, as the article swings between extremes. At the moment, for instance, half+ of the article reads like an attack on Werner Erhard. Additional eyes and commentary at the article talk page would definitely be valuable. --Tgeairn (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Renewed request

In the arbitration case John Carter refers to above, one principle affirmed by unanimous vote of the committee was "All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view, with all relevant points of view represented in reasonable proportion to their importance and relevance to the subject-matter of the article. Undue weight should not be given to aspects which are peripheral to the topic. Relying on synthesized claims, poor sources, or other "original research", is also contrary to this principle." The committee reminded parties "...to base their arguments in reliable, independent sources and to discuss changes rather than revert on sight", and they invited additional eyes to facilitate finding NPOV. These things are not happening right now in that article.

Since 15 January when John Carter brought this here, there have been over 230 edits to the Landmark Worldwide article. A significant portion of those edits have been multi-party edit warring (reverting "on sight"), or have been additions of poorly sourced material. Entire sections have been created based on synthesized claims. Multiple attempts at dispute resolution have been ignored or met with attacks. Some editors have been blocked, others have been warned. The state of the article is worse than ever.

The Landmark Worldwide article (and the entire field of "New Religious Movements") really needs additional impartial editors. --Tgeairn (talk) 17:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Request assistance

I was on the Talk Page of an article (Talk:Tom Brady). Per an "Admin Help" Template request, an administrator told me that I should come to this page with my questions and concerns. There is an article (Tom Brady) that is being edited in a very POV manner (in my opinion). Editors on that page will not allow any mention (whatsoever) of the word "Deflategate" in that article. Even though Tom Brady is a central figure in that topic; Tom Brady himself held a press conference on that very topic; and the topic has a million reliable sources. One editor in particular, in my opinion, is editing in a POV manner and interpreting Misplaced Pages "rules" to his convenience (User:Calidum). He says that, per BLP, we cannot "infer guilt by association". And, on top of all that, he keeps deleting a post that I placed on that Talk Page. He has deleted my post about 3 or 4 times now. My post contains nothing but (A) factual information; and (B) my concerns for editing that specific article. Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed at the top of this page, there is a red statement that says: "You must notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{subst:NPOVN-notice}} to do so." How do I notify that person? (Quite frankly, I'd like some neutral person to notify that person.) Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Hate to play noticeboard tag with you, but this is for situations where an article presents a non-neutral point of view, not for conflicts with an editor who has a non-neutral point of view. For what it's worth I agree in outline with what you and "Friendly Person" have said on the talk page. If the locus of dispute is about BLP then Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard is the place to go. Other content disputes can go to Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard. If its about the conduct of a user edit warring, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring is the place to be. Rhoark (talk) 21:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Huh? If the article is being edited in a non-POV manner, then the article itself presents a non-neutral POV. No? What am I missing? What's the distinction you are making? Are they not one and the same? That is, (A) if an article is being edited in a non-POV manner, then it follows that (B) that article presents a non-neutral point of view. No? How are (A) and (B) different? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

If the problem is user behaving badly go to the administrator's noticeboard. If the problem is the neutrality of something in the article is disputed, post diffs here. If the problem is the BLP implications of something in the article is disputed, post diffs at the BLP noticeboard. Rhoark (talk) 06:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Joseph A. Spadaro - Deleting anothers Talk when that Talk is about the editor deleting it ("It should be noted that User Calidum") seems understandable that you would want to type that and that he would then feel free to delete material that seems just about him. Kind of two wrongs make a sorta-OK protocol item than a Neutrality topic. The positive outcome is each editor got to vent some steam out, it's in the history, and Talk winds up more polite and on topic at the end. But I'll suggest talking the article topic and ways to proceed in this at the article Talk more likely to stick and looks better. Markbassett (talk) 13:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. But, I did not understand your comment at all. Please re-phrase it. And it is my understanding that one editor cannot delete (completely remove) the comments of another editor on a Talk Page. I am not talking about an article; I am talking about a Talk Page. So, even if you disagree with someone's Talk Page comment, the proper course is to reply or respond to it. Not to delete it. (Barring extreme circumstances, like to remove contact information or such.) So, please re-phrase your comment above. I really did not understand what you were saying. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• The situation appears to be that Joseph A. Spadaro does not understand WP:BLP and made this edit to a BLP article including 'incident in which "some people are suspicious of Brady" and he held a press conference to dispel accusations of alleged cheating'. People either get BLP or they don't and I rarely find that explaining it achieves anything, however, Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone, therefore people are not permitted to add rumors and accusations (there are some exceptions but they do not apply in this case). If a due process has found someone guilty of wrongdoing (and if it is WP:DUE), that information can included. Until then, stick to Twitter. Also, an article talk page should not be used to make proclamations about other editors, and the editor was quite correct to remove the off-topic attack. Johnuniq (talk) 08:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the lecture. How was that quote not 100% factual? And, no less, how was it not 100% reliably sourced? And if that other editor was correct in removing my post from a Talk Page, why is my post still there, as we speak? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Soka Gakkai

Before being threatened with a topic ban again I would like a third opinion on the section about “Peace activities”. There are a number of links indicating that some SGI adherents like doing gymnastics and building human pyramids. I’d like a third opinion if there is enough evidence that this IS an official SGI peace activity and if the reference stated are concrete enough?--Catflap08 (talk) 12:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any NPOV issue here. If there is, please provide diffs and link to a relevant discussion on the article's talk page. If you're concerned about the reliability of sources, is the place to ask. Rhoark (talk) 16:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Donetsk People's Republic

I'd like to call attention to the article Donetsk People's Republic. There are 2 NPOV issues that I think need addressing;

1: Respect for the POV tag.

2: The section "Human rights" needs more de-POVifying. (the debate can be found here). It probably qualifies as a WP:CRITICISM section. The main proponent of keeping it in the article is User:Volunteer Marek. (other editors, User:MyMoloboaccount and User:KoolerStill seem to agree that this is WP:UNDUE). As has been said in another debate before, "Section totally un-encyclopedic, as its based on unreliable sources..."

Here are some example diffs of the material being added & removed:

• WP:IDONTLIKEIT -- ,

• WP:UNDUE -- ,

• WP:RS --

Like any conflict it cannot be reduced to "good guys" vs "bad guys". The reality is that both parties had committed human rights abuses. Certainly some of the content here should be included, but I feel like its a bit of a WP:BITR and most definitely WP:UNDUE. -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The neutrality of the article is clearly disputed. An involved editor should not remove the tag without consensus.

This does not appear to be a criticism section, rather a major component of the body of the article. The excesses of the rebels and the support they receive from Russia are very significant to the reliable sources, and likely the concerns of greatest interest to readers of the article. There is no way the section as a whole could be construed as undue. The requirements of NPOV have also generally been fulfilled by appropriately attributing opinions. That's not to say that if someone went through the section with a fine-toothed comb they couldn't find something that needed to be more precisely attributed. If there are concerns about the reliability of sources, the sources should be addressed one-by-one entirely on the basis on reliability alone rather than being conflated with NPOV. It's entirely possible that while the views in the article are not UNDUE, opposing views are not receiving the coverage that they are DUE. They will need to bring their sources and make their edits. Rhoark (talk) 17:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

^ This is spot on. Couldn't have said it better.TheBlueCanoe 17:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The excesses of the rebels .... Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax (whole section "Allegations of anti-semitism")

The excesses of the pro-Kiev Aidar, Donbass and Dnipro-1 battalions .... Eastern Ukraine: Humanitarian disaster looms as food aid blocked (not mentioned in the article)

Nearly half of the Misplaced Pages 'Donetsk People's Republic' article is devoted to the "excesses of the rebels". Clearly WP:UNDUE & WP:BITR.

For comparison, below are a few examples of Misplaced Pages articles about self-declared states with limited/no recognition:

Somaliland, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, Transnistria, State of Palestine, Republic of Serbian Krajina, Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia, Biafra, Confederate States of America, Republic of Kosovo

Rebel groups that control territory

Zapatista Army of National Liberation, Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Houthis, Moro National Liberation Front

Tobby72 (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you present these sources for discussion on the article talk page. Rhoark (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Rhoark, that's exactly what I'll do.

An involved editor should not remove the tag without consensus. --- Volunteer Marek recently once again removed neutrality tag. -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd like it noted that Tobby72, when he began this discussion here, failed to notify me of it, as required per the heading on top. This brings up the question of whether the discussion was started in good faith, or just a back-door attempt at WP:FORUMSHOPPING.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

As to the removal of the tag - the text within the tag itself is NOT policy. It was inserted in there arbitrarily by a grudge holding user with some sour grapes. The WP:NPOV page IS policy. And that is pretty clear on the fact that a) a spurious tag should not be inserted based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT, b) the tag needs to be justified on talk page and grounded in policy and c) that yes, it's perfectly fine to remove a spurious tag. We go by NPOV policy here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and now that I thought about it for a second, I recalled that this issue already *has* been discussed on the talk page (if not this noticeboard, see talk page archives) of the article and consensus was against Tobby72. So not only are they failing to notify relevant parties of this discussion, they are also failing to disclose the fact that this has already been discussed (and of course, that the discussion didn't go their way).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Tobby72 here. Unfortunately Volunteer Marek has become strongly engaged here and is pushing a very one sided POV here(minor note-I have known and was one of Polish editors who worked with editor VM for years before, until recentre). The claim that there was a discussion is a weak one, there doesn't seem to be any consensus there and besides, consensus might change. At the moment the section was undue because it didn't represent a neutral view, which points to abuses and violations by both sides.Reliable sources like OSCE and Human Rights Watch have noted serious abuses and atrocities committed by Ukrainian side on the territory of DPR and this indeed should be noted in the article. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

the section was undue because it didn't represent a neutral view, which points to abuses and violations by both sides - this is patently false. The original section discussed violations and abuses by BOTH sides. Another editor pointed out that a lot of the stuff was off topic, basically trying to create a false balance, basically by throwing in some just random anti-Ukrainian stuff unrelated to the subject of the article. So to the extent that there WAS a WP:UNDUE problem, it's that there was unnecessary, off-topic info about Ukrainian violations, whereas these should really be discussed somewhere else. But that's not what Toby (and you) are complaining about. You're complaining that the article includes information based on reliable sources which is pertinent to the topic. Tobby (and presumably, you) want to remove it because it makes the DPR look bad. Too bad. We go with reliable sources, not some Misplaced Pages user's WP:IDONTLIKEIT

And as I keep pointing out. Spurious NPOV tags can and should be removed. What Toby hasn't bothered to do - not this time, not at any previous time this came up - is to explain *what exactly in POV*, as required by policy. Which text is not based on reliable sources? Which text misrepresents sources? Which text is unsourced? Etc. This hasn't and isn't being done. The tag goes, its presence in the article is *itself* a form of POV pushing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:26, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

"The original section discussed violations and abuses by BOTH sides". Which you have removed completely, leaving only alleged abuses by the Republic's forces."Another editor pointed out that a lot of the stuff was off topic, basically trying to create a false balance, basically by throwing in some just random anti-Ukrainian stuff unrelated to the subject of the article"Documented reports about abuses comitted by Ukrainian forces on the territory of Republic made by reliable organizations like OSCE or Human Rights Watch aren't "random anti-Ukrainian" stuff. They are a highly important information by reliable sources which requires coverage in article about the territory they concern.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, you restored the original material. By your logic, you should now proceed to remove the NPOV tag, since the original section, which DOES discuss both sides' violations, is in there.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:06, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Iglesia ni Cristo

Me and an anonymous user are having an edit dispute in regards to the display of the Iglesia ni Cristo's founder Felix Manalo as the "above=" field in the navigation template. I think it's giving him undue weight since his article is already linked. Can someone look into this? --w 03:21, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Men's Rights Movement

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Men%27s_rights_movement&diff=646544448&oldid=646542408

I believe the lead is full of "expressions of doubt". It appears to me that it is written in a manner intended to cast doubt on all claims made by those considered to be part of the "Men's rights movement". Compare and contrast to the article on Feminism, which I believe is the closest article on a similar subject that's written in an unbiased and neutral manner.

Previous discussions on this article's neutrality: Current 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44

Please note that some of these no longer apply, but help to demonstrate the long-term NPOV issues with the article, and the lack of permanent resolution.

I feel there are multiple serious issues with the article.

One, the article appears to be written largely from an anti Men's rights perspective, not a neutral one.

Two, there is heavy usage of sources which are biased - but this bias is extensively justified in the talk pages as being "from a reliable source, regardless of any amount of bias of that source". If anti-men's-rights articles from "reliable sources" are allowed and included, then an equal amount of pro-men's-rights articles from similarly "reliable sources" should be sought out and included to provide balance.

But above all, the wording and phrasing of the article - especially the "lede" (lead?) - is written in a manner that attempts to marginalise, discredit, and is pretty much the definition of "expressions of doubt". See the first link of this section for specific examples. This i not the case in the article on Feminism - the fact that the Feminism article is written in a manner that presents all the views and claims of feminists as facts, and the Men's rights movement article is written in a manner that casts doubt on every view and claim of Men's rights activists, leads me to believe that Misplaced Pages officially supports Feminism at the expense of men.

In any case, I believe the Men's rights movement article should be reviewed and compared with similar articles, partially rewritten to present a neutral viewpoint (excluding the bias of so-called "reliable" sources), and the page should be permanently locked to all but a short list of editors who have shown the ability to edit the article neutrally (someone else, because I don't have time to dedicate to something like this). BrentNewland (talk) 21:42, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

BrentNewland - you have been editing both this and feminism, trying to make them "equal". But they are not treated equally by sources and the articles reflect that. You are making a false comparison. Sources are allowed to be biased, our writing cannot be. The reliable sources that discuss MRM tend to be discuss it negatively and the article reflects that due weight. There's nothing Misplaced Pages can do about it. NPOV has been used as a badge of shame on the MRM article, despite the piles of horse corpses on the talk page and the constant revisions. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

"you have been editing both this and feminism, trying to make them "equal"" My actions on any articles are not in question here. Bringing them up is an attempt to deflect and disrupt conversation on this topic.

"But they are not treated equally by sources and the articles reflect that. You are making a false comparison. Sources are allowed to be biased, our writing cannot be" - The problem is the writing IS biased. Yes, you can use a biased source. No, you should not use that biased source to insert biased statements, which is what has been done.

"The reliable sources that discuss MRM tend to be discuss it negatively and the article reflects that due weight." (A) That's kind of the whole problem. More unbiased and negative MRM articles need to be found to balance the article. (B) Where is your evidence of consensus that the majority of articles written about MRM are negative? How can articles written by feminists be justified as a reputable source and counted along with these other negative articles?

Would it be appropriate to cite studies from White Supremacists on articles relating to African Americans? Would it be appropriate to cite articles from Anti-Feminists on the Feminism page? How can you justify these sources as "reputable" when they are clearly biased?

"There's nothing Misplaced Pages can do about it. " Yes, there is much that can be done about this problem. Which is why I'm posting here, to initiate that process.

"NPOV has been used as a badge of shame on the MRM article, despite the piles of horse corpses on the talk page and the constant revisions." I see this comment as aggressive, hostile, and condescending. This is the second time you have left such a post in response to one of my comments. I strongly recommend you carefully consider the wording of your posts, and perhaps consider distancing yourself from the discussion, as it appears that you may possibly have some personal feelings or interests that are potentially at odds with your responsibilities as a Misplaced Pages contributor. BrentNewland (talk) 22:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

My tone might not be the most friendly, but I don't need to be your friend. You appear to not understand WP:RS (which is fine, being a new editor and all). Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source that reflects secondary sources. We do not try to make things "balanced", we give sources due weight. If the preponderance of sources are negative on an issue, so will Misplaced Pages be. Feminist sources are, by and large, reliable sources as many are academic. You will not find White supremacist academic sources easily. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:36, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. However, your comment has only restated what you said initially, as well as what you said here. If you do not have new input on the subject, please consider refraining from further comments, lest they be seen as hounding. To be quite honest, I believe you yourself are partially responsible for propagating the biased POV of this article; due to this, I cannot take any statements you make at your word, which is why I have posted this discussion - to get unbiased input.

I have posted this request here after many, many previous reports of NPOV violation (see 40+ links posted above). With that many people believing the article is not NPOV, this is a valid discussion and cause for concern. . BrentNewland (talk) 22:54, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I too look forward to outside input, but you seem to know a lot about things like hounding (which this does not remotely approach) for a new inexperienced account. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:02, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I know how to google, my account is not relatively new, and I have done quite a bit of minor editing while logged out over the years. If you are accusing me of being a "sockpuppet", you may follow the instructions on your talk page to report me. BrentNewland (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with BrentNewland (talk · contribs) that this article suffers from systemic NPOV bias due to the persistent involvement of a small cadre of editors fighting against any sourced content that portrays the "men's rights movement" in more innocous language. In particular the most persistent issue is the extensive use of expressions of doubt within the article to cast doubt on the veracity of the movement. Comparisons of this article to the women's rights article are instructive to highlight the difference.Spudst3r (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This does look to be a matter of WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Especially with a contentious issue like this, we first have to nix unreliable sources, but note that "reliable" in our context doesn't necessarily mean it takes a neutral position of a subject. If the body of reliable sources on a subject is largely negative, the article has to reflect that per WP:WEIGHT. It seems like the best approach would be to go one step at a time, tedious as it may be. For the lead, the order should be first addressing the reliability of the sources cited and/or those which you think she be included, and then addressing whether the language reflects a summary of what the sources that we cite have to say. For the rest of the article, those two steps could theoretically be reversed. I just don't think you're going to get anywhere by arguing both at the same time -- not with a controversial issue. --— Rhododendrites \\ 18:36, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

On Misplaced Pages, scholars are usually the most authoritative source. On the topic of the men's rights movement, quite a few scholars have written about it, and the majority of these have portrayed the movement in a negative light. This is why there cannot be any sort of satisfaction for BrentNewland or Spudst3r in terms of 'balance'. The proper balance is achieved by portraying the topic in primarily negative terms.
The sockpuppet accusation should be put to bed. Though both BrentNewland and Spudst3r have been sporadically active, dormant until recent interest in the MRM article, the two accounts demonstrate separate styles and timings. This intertwined edit report shows too little time passing between the activity of the two accounts; in one case edits were posted by the two accounts separated by only seven seconds. Binksternet (talk) 19:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Binksternet (talk · contribs), RE your statement that "proper balance is achieved by portraying the topic in primarily negative terms.":

WP:WEIGHT is not a blank cheque to begin using non-impartial tone and language casting expressions of doubt. Right now this article has extensive and intentional insertions of NPOV expressions of doubt continuing unabated, to the point where consensus-seeking attempts to make the tone more neutral are getting reverted over and again by the same individuals.

Binksternet (talk · contribs) Rhododendrites (talk · contribs), Part of the article's imbalance naturally comes from the dominante sourcing of scholarly material skewing to one perspective. Descriptions of the men's rights movement are WP:SUBJECTIVE and we need to recognize the opinionative nature of the cited sources being used. This is particularly true since most gender scholarly resources are published within women's studies journals who have a natural tendency to be critical of movements challenging them. This is not me disputing reliable sources, but rather to suggest that in an article like this non-scholarly material may need to be given more weight than normal.

Either way, I do believe the dearth of meaningful reliable sources not critical of the men's rights movement is partially due to the fact that under the current state of the article, potential editors to this page who are not nuanced in wiki lawyering will need to be able to master it quickly if they are to have any hope of getting past the [aggressive automatic reverting and attempted suppresion of reliable sources that consistently occur during attempts to add new sources.

But even putting disputes over sources aside: My main NPOV complaint is not even with how sources are being relied on, but rather how POV is being systematically pushed into this page to the point disregarding NPOV tone and structure. Reverts are so aggressive that meaningful progress any where on this page is unbelieveably difficult. There is no excuse for this, as Misplaced Pages is quite explicit about WP:IMPARTIAL and WP:BALANCE:

• WP:BALANCE:

• Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.

• WP:IMPARTIAL:

• "Misplaced Pages describes disputes. Misplaced Pages does not engage in disputes. A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article. The tone of Misplaced Pages articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone."

Example of NPOV: The opening statement "The men's rights movement is made up of a variety of groups and individuals who focus on issues of male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression." versus "The men's rights movement is made up of a variety of groups and individuals who focus on what they consider to be issues of male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression." Here the first is a factual statement about what the movement focuses on, following the spirit of Misplaced Pages's NPOV guide showing how the statement "The pro-life movement holds that abortion is wrong, or occasionally that it is only justified in certain special cases" is a factual statement to describe the pro-life movement, not an opinion.. Yet despite this, a small group of editors are still reverting aggressively to the latter phrasing, rejecting any attempt to remove "what they consider to be" from the opening statement of the article. This is clear (and entirely unnecessary) NPOV WP:SUBJECTIVE framing. If I added similar language (and backed it up with reputable sources) to the feminism article, I guarantee my attempts would be heavily reverted and challenged. Indeed, BrentNewland (talk · contribs) recent edits demonstrate very clearly the zero tolerance environment currently existing for any changes to the Feminism article. (I don't endorse disruptive edits to the Feminism page, but reverts occuring in that article clearly demonstrate the existence of a systemic double standard in the administration of these related article's that extend far beyond just trying to uphold appropriate weight to reliable sources).

My Temporary Recommendation for admins: order that the usage of expressions of doubt on the men's rights movement article be tapered down so that attempts at more neutral language no longer get reverted.

(Finally, thank you Binksternet (talk · contribs), for exonerating me from the false accusations made against me by Flyer22 (talk · contribs) that I am a sockpuppet account.)Spudst3r (talk) 10:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Scholars in the area of women's studies are not automatically opinionated or biased against men in their writings. All scholars are subject to tough peer review standards, so that's why we hold their work in such high esteem. Misplaced Pages is not going to ignore the opinions of, say, white scholars who are writing about African Americans, or hearing scholars writing about deafness, or Canadian scholars writing about the USA, just because the scholar is not part of the group under study. Binksternet (talk) 15:07, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

@Spudst3r: I'm going to give a couple examples to make a point. They are extreme examples and I don't want you to think I'm equating the present subject with either of these, but I think it may help to illustrate a couple of the issues you're perceiving here. Time Cube and Westboro Baptist Church. The body of reliable sources writing about these two subjects simply do not present a balanced perspective (which is also to say that a lot of the "positive" articles on the subject are published in what would, under Misplaced Pages policy, be considered unreliable sources). Therefore it would be a false balance and undue weight to present both sides equally. It likewise would not be an accurate summary of the subject to omit the negative characterizations in the lead -- because the lead is supposed to summarize the article, which in turn summarizes reliable sources.

So coming back to "focus on what they consider to be issues of male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression.", it just isn't the case that reliable sources writing about this subject consider "male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression" to exist in the way that they are considered to exist by men's rights activists. That isn't to say it's true or untrue, but looking at reliable sources it's not possible to come to another conclusion. This is what is meant by presenting views with the weight they receive in reliable sources. It doesn't mean presenting unadulterated arguments of each side as they would characterize the arguments themselves.

That's not to say none of your arguments have merit. In particular, it might be informative (for me, too, from a policy perspective) to ask for clarification, being as specific and concise as possible and perhaps in a separate thread, regarding your question about "all sources in MRM article must be about MRM vs. all sources in feminism article must be about feminism". --— Rhododendrites \\ 15:31, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

NOTE: I indicated that Spudst3r is either a WP:Sockpuppet or a WP:Meatpuppet, and I stand by that. Others at WP:ANI agree that Spudst3r is undoubtedly a WP:Meatpuppet, with a WP:Canvassing thread to bolster that conclusion. Nothing false at all regarding what I stated about Spudst3r. If others want to play dumb regarding that account, they are free to do so, but don't expect me to play dumb in this case. That is all. Flyer22 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry is certainly a possibility, as both appear to be from Vancouver. BrentNewland cited a small British Columbia newspaper here in a little-known topic local to Vancouver, Canada. Spudst3r has edited many articles of local BC interest. The two could easily be working together. Also, the Seattle IP that added the prison bit is not so far removed from Vancouver, Canada, being about 4.5 hours drive away. The Seattle IP edit was separated in time from the edits of BrentNewland and Spudst3r by at least 8 hours. So it's possible that there is larger coordination occurring. The only thing I said was not true was that BrentNewland and Spudst3r were the same person. Binksternet (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Jeb Bush

I feel guilty - but when I posted the query at BLP/N, another editor insisted it was not a BLP issue and now says the issue is that the source has a "viewpoint" rather than just giving a neutral fact - so I am having to come here for a determination as to whether the use of the CSM is POV in esse, or simply reciting a neutral fact (the precise same source is being used by him, so there is no basis to doubt reliability, but I decided to ask here to see if the claim is, indeed, POV and UNDUE:

The Christian Science Monitor noted that " most of Mr. Bush’s emails came with a disclaimer: “Most written communications to or from state officials regarding state business are public records available to the public and media upon request. Your e-mail communications may therefore be subject to public disclosure.”"

The preceding part currently reads:

In 2015 Bush released the emails from his governorship online. Most of the emails were public records under Florida's sunshine laws, and many included personal details such as social security numbers, names and addresses, as well as the contents of those private messages. According to Politico "a Bush spokesperson Kristy Campbell said that the emails are an “exact replica” of those on public record that are available at the Florida Department of State and are “available at anyone’s request under Chapter 119 sunshine laws.”"

Is the fact that people sending emails were actually notified that the emails were not private a POV claim? It is clear that Florida did not regard them as private, but is the notice actually given to people at the time they were not private an UNDUE claim? A claim intended to make Bush appear "righteous"? Is the addition of the sentence a violation of WP:NPOV?

MrX as the other editor. Collect (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: The entire section on the 2016 campaign Jeb_Bush#2016_presidential_election has now been tagged as POV. Please comment on whether that section is biased. If it is, then we surely should fix the bias. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Jeb Bush releases eight years' worth of emails: Is that legal? Jessica Mendoza, The Christian Science Monitor, February 10, 2015
2. "Jeb Bush's transparency push violated employees' and constituents' privacy". 10 February 2015. Retrieved 10 February 2015.
3. Mendoza, Jessica (February 10, 2015). "Jeb Bush releases eight years' worth of emails: Is that legal?". Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved February 10, 2015.
4. Jeb Bush camp blames Florida for unredacted emails Kendall Breitman, Politico, Feb 10, 2015

• Editors are already commenting on this at WP:BLP/N where it was cross posted, so this should be closed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Alas BLP/N can not be the place to discuss the POV accusation made specifically at me -- including a claim that saying the CSM "noted" a fact is clear "editorializing". Each new issue goes to the correct message board on Misplaced Pages, alas. Recall he insisted that BLP/N was the "wrong" board and wanted the first discussion shut down. (Wrong place to discuss this. This is not a BLP issue) Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

And if the section is indeed POV, then it must to be fixed - thus getting opinions here on the whole section which was objected to. Collect (talk) 01:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Ali Khamenei#Public letter to the Western youths

Given that, in Ali Khamenei's 75 years of life, he has both been involved in the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the Iran–Iraq War, and an unknown number of crackdowns on political opponents, is it really WP:DUE to mention a tweet he made last month in the article about him - let alone devote an entire section to it (it is also linked under "See also")? The section has previously been removed, but was restored, in good faith (per talk). I have asked what WP:LASTING effect the tweet/letter have had, but have not received any response.--Anders Feder (talk) 04:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear Anders, it is not about a tweet, it is about the letter. The tweeter account of khamenei in not verified and the article should not refer to it at all.--Seyyed(t-c) 05:44, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: Same difference. The newsworthiness is equivalent to that of a tweet by Justin Bieber or some other celebrity. It has zero historical or political implications.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: I do not get what you mean. There is not any tweet. There is a letter. The question can be the notability of the letter. We can judge about the notability based on the frequency of the coverage of the issue in reliable sources. In my view the only thing which can relate this issue to NPOV policy is WP:UNDUE. On the other hand as you told above it is not so important to make a separate section for it. I think we can merge it in the other section as a sub-section.--Seyyed(t-c) 10:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: It isn't important whether it's a tweet or letter. Why mention it in the article at all? It has no encyclopedic value.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we can make a section for "Public diplomacy" and put it under it, with or without title. However, it has notability due to the coverage by different media.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The passage covering the letter was created by me but I had originally made it a subsection under "Foreign P,olicy" but it was later promoted to a separate section by another user. Sa.vakilian's suggestion: having a new section called "Public diplomacy" and moving the letter there seems like a good idea, considering the fact that one of the key characteristics of Iran's Supreme Leadership is public statements in matters of politics and religion. The letter would subsequently find its right proportion and place in the page. Strivingsoul (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Any lessening of it's prominence that you can agree to would be an improvement, in my view.--Anders Feder (talk) 00:25, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

This letter I agree is worth exactly the weight of a tweet. In fact one could be pushed to say it is the equivalent of recieving a message on a pager. I say this due to two reasons. When deciding on content, one has to appreciate the enduring notability of said event which in this case is unlikely. This letter has the odour of considerable insignificance. The second reason is weight. A google news search of the of the letter (limited to stories from past month) returned 174 results. This section should be henceforth deleted. Anders Feder makes a well merited point about the events in this leader's life. When the life of an article subject has involved a revolution, a war, crackdowns on opposition and various other weighty events, it is slightly disparaging to give an entire section to something which could only be described as having the mass of 14, or at a push 15, higgs bosons. Mbcap (talk) 04:59, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the title is not suitable. We should find an encyclopedic title for the section. For example "Public diplomacy#non-Muslims" then mention this issue as an example beside the other examples. --Seyyed(t-c) 17:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Foie gras

After a recent flurry of editing, this article has gained a number of citations to viva.org

• "Torture in a tin: Viva! foie-gras fact sheet" (PDF). Viva!. 2014. Retrieved February 14, 2015.

and an external link the the Daily Mirror. A wider assessment of the neutrailty of this would be welcome ... Alexbrn 18:47, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

As the editor Alebrn is concernes about, am I required to speak to this here? I have made my points on the relevant Talk page, but I can re-address them here if that is the usual format.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:25, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

IMHO, this belongs more at WP:RSN. That being said, while the Viva pdf can be used to verify the opinion of the publisher, the statements of the pdf should not be taken as verified fact.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

So what about the sources in the article which are attributed to the foie gras production industry? They clearly have a vested interest in the subject matter - why is their neutrality and stated "verified facts" not being questioned? This "neutrality and reliability" has to be applied consistently.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

You are not required, no, since no one is compensating you for your work. But wikijustice is often best served if done adversarially.--Anders Feder (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This was hardly discussed at all on the talk page before coming here. I'd suggest closing this thread and continuing there to avoid parallel discussions. The noticeboard doesn't need to be the first step. --— Rhododendrites \\ 05:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

James Napier Robertson

The subject of this article has made a complaint about his voice intro project recording being published. Apart from that, which will be discussed elsewhere, has this made apparent that User:203.173.201.94 has removed this recording without comment twice making it very likely that this is the ip address of him or somebody very close to him. This ip address has made many edits to the article and related ones over the past months, making them biased even though there are citations to many of the edits made.1Veertje (talk) 07:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm that user User:203.173.201.94. I'm not the subject nor am I close to him or know him at all (although I do live in New Zealand). The changes I have made all have citations, feel free to check through them. I deleted the voice intro project recording twice because I believe it is not Misplaced Pages appropriate - you do not and could never see a feature like this on any notable person that has deceased, and so it is inconsistent to Wiki bio articles and feels 'gimmicky' to me, not of Wiki's standard. I have left it alone since anyhow. I am not involved (or aware) of any complaint that has been made however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sugarloafrd (talk • contribs) 20:51, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:WikiVIP won me an award, presented by Jimmy Wales himself, at Wikimania. Here's some press about the project. Your move. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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