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Untitled discussion

Done. -- Jasabella 09:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the picture, Jasa. In view of

the form these pastries take is significantly different from country to country

perhaps this differentiation needs more follow-up, since that picture really does not look very much at all like a "British" Danish pastry! (See Exhibit GB: ) -- Picapica 9 July 2005 15:12 (UTC)

Neither does it look like anything served in Sweden. I'm gonna take a better one soon enough.

Peter 16:21, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I've taken another photo myself of a Praline Pear Danish and replaced the old one. If you think the old one was better, please feel free to remove it. Thanks.

Delta Omega 12:20, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Tons better than the old one, Delta. But it's a pretty extreme close-up, so I took one that actually captures the entire danish. I'm putting yours here so we can include when there's room enough for more than one pic.

Peter 19:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

why was the section about the muslim boycott/proposed name change removed? i fail to see the bigotry in this and hence i will revert to the older edit.

"Danish pastries were recently boycotted by most of the Islamic world" is way too vague ("recently" meaning when?) and needs sources (e.g. ). Foxxygirltamara 10:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 14:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Danish pastry → Danish (pastry) - because its name is "danish", not "danish pastry".

Voting

• Support --Yath 06:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Oppose : I believe "Danish" is a colloquialism for "Danish pastry", in which case I'd oppose the move, but I'm not sure. Regards, David Kernow 03:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose — Danish is a colloquial abbreviation for Danish pastry. In British English, it is called a Danish pastry (although the abbreviation is starting to become more common). It would be against the MoS to change this. I think that it would be wrong for an article, which began with title acceptable in both British English and American English, to be moved to a common abbreviation in American English that also requires parentheses for disambiguation. — Gareth Hughes 21:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Godfrey Daniel 01:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Gareth and David. Duja 08:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I take Gareth and David at their word concerning UK usage. Robert A.West (Talk) 23:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

(Mis)characterization of the Muhammad Cartoons

Muhammad was not portrayed as a suicide bomber. Changed this article to reflect that. Please see the Muhammad Cartoons article for more, including the actual cartoons themselves. Godfrey Daniel 02:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Who cares even if he had! Viva Denmark, viva danish pastry, viva Danebrog ... -- The man from Vienna said so

Wienerbrød

Does the danish name not refer to "Wien" (A city in Germany). A strange thing is that in Germany a Danish Pastry is called "Copenhagenbrücel" (Or sometging like that) (Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark).

Edit: Forget what i said......

Forgotten or not - Wien is the city english speakers might know as Vienna. And yes, in Copenhagen we refer to Vienna, while in Vienna they refer to Copenhagen. For those who don't know, EU once suggested that products with geographical names in it should only be produced in that region mentioned. E.g. italian salad could only be from Italy, and Wienerbrød would have to be made in Wien. G®iffen 20:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I also think the article is wrong. It states that Danish pastry is thought to come from Vienna. This is however only true as folk tale or urban legend. In truth the name "Wienerbrød" refers the layers in the pastry and as such is a style, not an origin. Carewolf 10:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello. If this discussion is still of interest, I would like to close it, as the confusing terms of Wienerbrød ("bread from Vienna") and Danish pastry is now thoroughly explained (and sourced) in the article. RhinoMind (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

American Bread

I thought that in Denmark, a Danish was ironically called "American bread".

I never heard of "Amerikanerbrød" (American bread) in my 30 years in Denmark. I've heard of american toast (beef instead of the ham in a french toast) and "Amerikanerstang" (american stick), but I don't remember if it's a candystick or an ice stick (what do you call ice on a wooden stick in english anyway?) G®iffen 20:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Ice on a wooden stick is called a popsicle in America. See the wiki article for Ice_pop: http://en.wikipedia.org/Ice_pop —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.142.24 (talk) 21:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

But, has anybody ever managed to Purchase "Danish Patry" in Danmark? NO, as it is called "Austrian Pastry" in Danmark!!! Wiener Feinbäckerei ist the Key!!! And just to add a few eggs to an allready known receipe, does not make it really different or inventive.

Or can I call a Black Forest Gateau my own if I just just a few more eggs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.53.66 (talk) 14:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Answer to the two posts above. "Invention" does not mean a patented invention and definitely not ownership. It simply means that this kind of pastry originated in Denmark. Besides Danish pastry is not just puff pastry with a few eggs added.

Another example is English breakfast. English breakfast is not a patented English invention and perhaps similar meals was probably "invented" independently in other parts of the world even? English breakfast is just very common in England and it is universally agreed to call a breakfast consisting of sausages, eggs, fried bacon and various additions for an English breakfast. French fries, china (the porcelain), Spanish fly, Russian roulette, Greek theater, etc. Things refer to various countries for various reasons.

RhinoMind (talk) 22:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the American version is usually made with pastry cream and not baker's cheese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.70.158 (talk) 23:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

When to eat it in Denmark

A line was removed that ik DK it's mostly eaten on sundays and special occasions. Line rm due to no source. Anyway, in many familys this is quite the actual situation, but others eat danish pastry for the afternoon coffee on any day when it's available. When to eat it is very much a matter of family or workplace tradition and might differ from person to person. G®iffen 19:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Eaten in DK?

"...where she's just made coffee and, yes, danish, for the workshop team. "We should call these pastries 'American' because they're certainly not native to Denmark," she says with a laugh. "Come and get your coffee and 'American'! How does that sound?" source 67.101.158.30 (talk) 17:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

External Links

Should a link to The Utterly Danish Pastries of Denmark be added to the External Links section? Though written in a light tone this article is very informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henrikthiil (talk • contribs) 06:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Name change?

I'm confused as to why the article was moved to the current title "Danish (pastry)" when the result of the only debate on this page was "don't move".Anonymous watcher (talk) 10:14, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 03:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Danish (pastry) → Danish pastry – This article was previously hosted at Danish pastry, and the only previous move request on this topic, to move it from Danish pastry to the current title, was rejected back in 2006. Despite this it was later unilaterally moved with no discussion so should be moved back to its original home.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose As an American, I've never heard "Danish pastry"—just "danish." But from the old discussion, it looks like the former is UK usage. WP:RETAIN applies, but it's not necessarily easy to tell how. It would appear that the article hasn't been at Danish pastry since February 2010, so I could say we should retain this usage, but obviously the user who made that move didn't retain the usage at the time. What breaks the tie for me is that the pastry isn't actually Danish in origin, so it isn't literally a "Danish pastry," even if "danish" has become the WP:COMMONNAME. --BDD (talk) 17:45, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support as per WP:NATURAL, we should use a naturally disambiguating name, rather than parentheses. Zarcadia (talk) 20:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support (Speedy close and restore per WP:RM result) - although it's an old move, it's still counter WP:RM and being 2010 doesn't change WP:MOVE, this wasn't an "uncontroversial move". In ictu oculi (talk) 01:36, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
• '(Oppose') This isn't about the pastry of Denmark; though this being an out of process move, I can see a reversion and a new request being opened -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 05:36, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Parenthetical disambiguation is silly, when there's an easy option of natural disambiguation available to us. Srsly, how many readers are going to type "Danish (pastry)" into the search box, brackets and all? How many sources call it "Danish (pastry)"? bobrayner (talk) 00:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment you seem to be missing that "Danish" is the adjective for Denmark, and thus this can mean pastries from Denmark. While this pastry is Viennese, but popular in Denmark, whereas things such as the Kringle are Danish/Scandinavian. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 07:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Pastries from Denmark, other than the current topic, are not particularly notable; the collision need not be a problem because if anybody ever writes an article about it they could use "Pastries of Denmark" or similar. At the moment, we don't have an article about it so this is a non-issue. bobrayner (talk) 08:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. For all the reasons listed above. Peregrine981 (talk) 10:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Yes, "Danish" is often heard, but so is "Danish pastry", so it makes sense to have the title without the disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:19, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. In British English this item is referred to as a "Danish Pastry", in US English I have heard both terms used ("Danish" and "Danish Pastry"). The conclusion of the previous move request was not to move. Lastly, all the references and the external link refer to "Danish pastries" or "Danish pastry".Anonymous watcher (talk) 23:48, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

More on names

I think the naming question is a little more complicated than perhaps has been explored above.

The infobox picture is currently captioned A glazed apple danish, and I think that's accurate and general usage. Apple danish pastry is correct but rare, some menus perhaps. It's only where there's no such qualification that the pastry is added.

This may be some of the reason for the confusion above... two RMs, the second simply reinstating the result of the first after an undiscussed move in the meantime. Andrewa (talk) 03:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

"It's only where there's no such qualification that the pastry is added." That's the issue though regarding the article name, it can't be at Danish (I don't think anyone would argue that), and we need to disambiguate it as naturally and precisely as possible. There's no dispute that they are also referred to as Danish, that's covered within the article, the above discussion is purely to determine the name of the article itself not the nomenclature of pastries. Zarcadia (talk) 10:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

All the references seem to use "Danish pastry" as opposed to just "Danish". If the name is to be changed perhaps some uses of the term "Danish" in newspapers, articles, etc. could be found?Anonymous watcher (talk) 22:45, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

I have made some changes at the request of a Danish citizen, who had useful information but not very good English. --Greenmaven (talk) 01:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Let me guess, said editor is employed by Mette Munk bakeries? --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe so, but they still had something useful to contribute. --Greenmaven (talk) 19:13, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Exotic names?

As a Dane I can recognise the statement, that bakery products from that era was given exotic sounding names. Primarily French sounding ones. But I think it should be sourced and exemplified. The example given was "Franskbrød", like this:

<quote>For instance a plain wheat flour bread is called 'Franskbrød' ("French bread"), even though it has almost nothing to do with French bread.</quote>

This is not a good example. Let me explain. Traditionally rye bread is eaten in Denmark and only wheat bread on occasion. In France wheat bread is the stable bread and hence wheat bread became known as French Bread, because that is what they eat in France. It was thus not to give wheat bread an exotic name, but to express the cultural differences as seen from a Danish perspective. In addition, I believe that the name Franskbrød was adopted much earlier than the time period discussed.

If we need examples, Remonce is a good example and also Fragilité (look it up on Wiki Commons). There are probably many other examples. RhinoMind (talk) 08:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

A representing image

User:Peter Isotalo changed the representing image on the page (twice) and the following discussion unfoldede on his personal page. I have now copied it here, to follow the WP guidelines. RhinoMind (talk) 19:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello. I reverted your image swap on the Danish pastry page. Danish pastry is much more than what is known as a "Danish" in the USA. I insist you read the article on Danish pastry to improve your knowledge. There is also a large category on WikiCommons, displaying assorted Danish pastries. I think it would be quite educational for you. Let us use the Talk:Danish pastry to discuss further if needed. Cheers. RhinoMind (talk) 16:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

RhinoMind, I'm from Sweden myself, so I'm familiar with Scandinavian pastry. The image you're insisting on is not illustrative of a typical Danish and clearly contains several types of wheat dough bun-lengths. Those are common in Sweden as well, and they are essentially the same as large cinnamon rolls. Please motivate why you believe the article is about "pastries of Denmark" rather than Danishes.

Peter 18:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello. The article is not about "Danishes". The title of the article is "Danish pastry". Danish pastry is a term for several kinds of pastries. This includes what is known as a "Danish" in the USA (and a Spandauer in Denmark), but it covers a lot more pastries. I am well aware, that Danish pastry is not "pastries from Denmark". So let us bury this misunderstanding. Danish pastry actually refers to the dough. The dough is used in several different pastries and there are even slight variations of the dough, some of which contains yeast. It is not the same dough recipe as the dough used for buns. You can read more about it all in the sources and references on the page. And I insist you do. I also insist, that you click on the image and read more about the inserted information there. It explains in more detail about the various pastries in the photo and their differences.

If you don't like the composition in the photograph, you are welcome to upload a photo with a better composition, but displaying a similar variation of Danish pastries. A photo of a "Danish" can not be accepted as representative.

In order to follow the Misplaced Pages guidelines, I will have to revert your change once more. You changed the original page and your change was challenged. If you insist on your change to be implemented, we would have to discuss it on the pages' talk-page first. Therefore, in addition to the revert, I will also copy this thread to the talk-page on Danish pastry and we can continue there if needed. RhinoMind (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Rhino, please read the article, starting with the lead. A Danish or Danish pastry is about "multilayered viennoiserie pastry". It's the process of rolling out layers of dough and butter that makes it a Danish. This process is described in detail even in the Danish-language article, but it seems to have been overlooked in this one. Here are two independent refs.

The most common type of Danish pastry is by far the "Spandauer"-type. There are other variants, but it's not by accident that this is the most commonly photographed type of pastry. You're way off on this and the image you've been insisting on doesn't even properly show the defining aspect, namely the flaky consistency. You need to provide reliable sources to support your idea about the dough itself being the defining aspect of Danish pastry. If not, I suggest you pick the original pic or one of the several high-quality images available on Commons.

Peter 20:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

"but it's not by accident that this is the most commonly photographed type of pastry" No, in the USA they probably only know the Spandauer-type. What we can read in British or American dictionaries is not the whole truth. They are often limited to the culture of Britain and the USA. Contrary Misplaced Pages is an international project with an international POV. The English WP is not a British WP or a WP for the USA. Therefore what we describe here should be an objective description of what Danish pastry is all about. And Danish pastry is used for many different cakes. Cakes the photo you don't like displayed. No other Danish pastry photo shows a similar diversity, so it is the best image we have so far.

I think we can agree that the article is under-ref'ed as is. I would really like to add more sources and refs. But I dont feel solely responsible for that task. You (and others) are most welcome to contribute. Wienerbrød (English: Danish pastry) has recently bee recognised as one of Denmark's contributions to the food culture of the world by the EU. The corresponding EU-paper should be up here as a source I think. I will try to put it in when/if I find it. Food historian Bi Skaarup has written some books and I might add them later, if they are found solid with regard to wienerbrød. But they are in Danish I guess.

But all that said, are there really any source explaining that Danish pastry is used in all the other countries mentioned? I think this is important to ref.. I know in particular, that Sweden produces a lot of "kanel-bullar", but as far as I know the flaky butter-dough is not used in Sweden at all. I would really like to see a source describe this. Maybe you know of something? It would also be great to put in a section on "how to make" a Danish pastry dough as you also feel is missing. You are most welcome. RhinoMind (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

As a compromise, I've moved down RhinoMind's image and replaced it with a different high-quality close-up of a Danish. I see no references for the suggestion that a kanelstang, chokoladesnegle or brunsvier are defined as Danish pastries, and there's even a lonely croissant in there.Peter 22:55, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

No reference? Well you can try reading ref. 4 in the article for a start. Especially the section named "Wienerbrødet blev opfundet i 1843, det var en croissant med remonce kopieret fra Wien". If you read Swedish you will not have much trouble reading this article. The Mette Munk company (see ref. 5) also sells a variety of cakes as Danish pastry, but this is not a good source to use on its own, for several reasons. RhinoMind (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

And I still believe that this particular image does not work well as illustration due to its poor composition. The individual pastries are jumbled and angled so that few distinctive marks or shapes can be discerned. Overall, the lighting makes them all blend together into a single light-brown mass. It's not a good photo, no matter how much variation it shows.Peter 22:55, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

We have been through this. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be beautiful and posh. It is supposed to be correct and descriptive, written in plain English. However bad you think the photo is, it is the best we have so far with regard to variety. And I think it is important to show (and/or explain) the large variety of Danish pastries. The picture you put in now, on the other hand, clearly shows the flaky consistency of the pastry and that is also a good representing attribute to display I think. I am fine with it. RhinoMind (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

This is English Misplaced Pages. Terminology in English Misplaced Pages is supposed to focus on what is defined as "Danish pastry/Danish" in English-language sources. It's also supposed to present a global perspective, which means no special treatment for Denmark. You've presented two sources: one is written in Danish and the other is a pastry company website.

The former sources is an article (translated title: "Danish pastries are a success story") in Samvirke, the magazine for members of Coop in Denmark. The article is promotional and slightly patriotic in nature and obviously only applies to Denmark and its own variations on the term wienerbrød. Neighbouring Sweden uses the exact same term, but does not define it as non-flaky pastry.

The latter source is a promotional text by a Denmark-based company that produces pastry. Obviously not a particulary neutral or reliable source.

Neither source is very good and really only apply to Denmark. Even the Danish Misplaced Pages article focuses on flaky pastry that is made by the process of folding dough. Refs confirming this have already been presented. If what you say isn't merely a marginal perspective, good sources should be plentiful. Go find them.

And note that the image dispute is not about the faux dichotomy of "posh" vs "plain". You're insisting that we start off the article with an image that a) represents just one country and b) shows little detail, is of low technical quality and even lower aesthetic value. We always choose higher-quality images over lower-quality ones and we do it for the same reason we copyedit prose and don't write our articles like Simple English Misplaced Pages.

Peter 23:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Your post and attitude is unnecessary rude, commanding and insulting. RhinoMind (talk) 16:08, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

With regard to the contents of your post, it is very mixed up and reveals that you haven't cared to study the article or the subject for that matter. I find it perplexing, that you invest so much time and energy in a subject that you don't care about. But let me address your concerns anyway:

• Since Danish pastry was invented and developed in Denmark and since Danish pastry was popularized from Denmark, it is neither "patriotic", "nationalistic" or "a special treatment" to describe and inform on the products' history in Denmark, including the variety that has emerged in and from that country.
• Ref 4 (Samvirke article) is a consumer oriented article and not promotional of any specific company or product. It is based on an interview with a renowned academic - recently deceased food historian Bi Skaarup. I can put in similar refs from newspapers, but the message is the same. I am currently inquiring at the EU to find on-line links to the Euroterroir project, as it has proven really hard for me to come up with something useful.
• Ref 5 (Mette Munk company) was not "my referrence". It was added by another WP-contributor long time ago. If you ever read the article or knew about the subject we discuss you would know, that this company is not just a company. This specific company has been instrumental in popularizing Danish pastry outside of Denmark. We already agreed that it cannot stand alone as a source, but their website shows a large diversity of what Danish pastry is and as a ref it is fine.
• "Good sources should be plentiful. Go find them." Well for some reason they aren't plentiful. I will put them in when/if I find them and you and everybody else is most welcome to do so to. Let me remind you that this is not a court case for or against whether Danish pastry exist or not and you are by no means a judge of anything. If you care about the subject or just about Misplaced Pages, you will join in to improve the article, instead of being overly arrogant, commanding and attacking people who try to. Pull yourself together and find another place for letting out anger. No one here deserves it.
• "Neighbouring Sweden uses the exact same term, but does not define it as non-flaky pastry." Do you have any references to that? And is there any refs on any of the countries mentioned in the lede at all? As far as I know, Danish pastry is not produced and consumed in these countries at all. Perhaps as imports, but I am not aware there is any cultural tradition of producing it. I advertised for sources and refs on this in my former post and this is still an open question.

I don't know if you will respond to this post (in a constructive manner), but if you do, I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread, because the current topic of representing images has already been settled I think. RhinoMind (talk) 16:08, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Before I reply to any of your points, are you sure you've actually understood what this article is about? A Danish baked and sold in Sweden does not have to be made in Denmark. The English term "Danish pastry" and "Danish" refers primarily to "a light, rich, flaky pastry". French fries isn't an article about French cuisine and Swedish Fish isn't an article about Swedish candy. They're simply names that happen to reflect origins. If you want to write about baked goods made in Denmark or according to specific Danish standards, you should be working on pastry of Denmark.

Peter 16:44, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the real issue is here... but excepting (possibly) the "lone croissant", every one of the cakes in the big display are wienerbrød. Kanelsnegle, brunsvigere etc. are all made from wienerbrød dough in a danish bakery. That is: A dough that is rolled thin, covered with butter (or margarine) and folded --Kim D. Petersen 21:30, 15 February 2015 (UTC)]

You're simply wrong about the pastry in that image. Denmark and Sweden has pretty similar baked goods and I can read Danish fine. Per the image comments visible at Commons:

• kanelstænger — Regular sweet wheat dough. Standard fikabröd in Sweden. No more a Danish pastry than a spongecake.
• brunsvier/brunsviger — Haven't had it myself, but it's clearly not flaky. I looked for Danish recipes and they don't describe them as flaky pastry. Neither does the Danish-language article.
• smørkrans — In Sweden they're called butterkaka. Not flaky pastry.
• Tebirkes — Flaky pastry, but clearly very specific to Denmark.

So about half of the baked goods in that image are not what the rest of world would consider Danishes (using the singular term to avoid the confusion with national adjective). It's illustrative of baked goods of Denmark, but not Danishes. And it's still a poorly composed photo taken from a bad angle with bad lighting. We have far better images that don't confuse readers by throwing in a bunch of other baked goods. Because "Danish pastry" is still not the same as "pastry from Denmark". I can't stress enough that this article is not about the specific Danish concept of wienerbrød.

Peter 23:49, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It is always interesting to be lectured on what is done in Denmark by people not from Denmark :) But i'll help you a bit by this link to a danish baker, listing all of hirs wienerbrød.. notice how it mentions brunsviger, smørkrans and københavnerbirkes as wienerbrød (another). What you link to with your recipes for brunsviger is homemade recipes - something that you can make at home... wienerbrød, while it can be made at home, is usually too complicated - therefore both kanelsnegle and brunsviger are often made with regular dough. Bakers have different recipes, as i indicated in my comment. --Kim D. Petersen 03:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

A nice picture of a brunsviger from a baker, where you can clearly see that some are made from danish pastry, and the flaky nature of some baker brunsvigere. --Kim D. Petersen 03:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Since you seem to be here merely to debate the definition of wienerbrød in Denmark, I'll simply repeat what I've tried to stress as the main point: this article does not focus on Danishes as they are made or defined in Denmark.

Peter 08:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Danish pastry is wienerbrød, Peter. And your argument was that the picture wasn't of Danish pastries - which is quite frankly incorrect. --Kim D. Petersen 13:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconded, this article does not focus on Danishes as they are made or defined in Denmark. Agree completely with Peter. User Peter Isotalo is well known on the English and Swedish wiki as an experienced editor, who wrote several good articles and one of his expert field is cuisine, by the way. Hafspajen (talk) 13:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

And? --Kim D. Petersen 13:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyways i'm bailing out. These edits are simply too far out.... rewriting history? Is danish a Swedish thing when i come back tomorrow? --Kim D. Petersen 13:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• And - this is an article of the generic Danish. You two should maybe start an other article on the DANISH Danish. And if you wish to hear Argument from authority - we can call in some. Asking for second oppinion: Yngvadottir, admin, about generic articles, Northamerica1000 - food editor, US. Drmies about Danish in US. Hafspajen (talk) 13:48, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. Lets try this then: How can you from this reference make the claim/assertion that danish pastry is scandinavian? Especially since it describes Wienerbrød as something very danish? Danish is eaten all around the world, including in scandinavia - but its origin is still danish. There is no difference between Sweden, Norway, Lithuania etc. and the US with regards to Danish. --Kim D. Petersen 14:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Mostly consumed in great quantities in Scandinavia - Denmark, Sweden and Norway too... Origin is - well, stricly speaking is Turkish. The doug used in Austria - from the Strudel - it's where this Danish dough is coming from - is the dough from the baclava. It is the dough used in Strudel, via Austrian bakers took it to Danmark. Hafspajen (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Has it occurred to you that there is a difference between doughs? Danish!=Strudel!=Baklava. Evolution of baking is a thing... Danish pastry is differentiated by the layers and the amount of fat used. And yes, it is eaten all around the world, but that still doesn't change that it is Danish pastry. --Kim D. Petersen 16:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Kim, what are you talking about? No one has claimed that Danish pastry is Scandinavian. The article repeats several times that it was invented in Denmark.

As for your opinion about there being "no differences" in views on Danishes, I'd like you to introduce you to the cheese Danish. I'm familiar with the term from the US, but it's unheard of in Sweden. I'm assuming you have that in Denmark. And what about brunsviger or tebirkes? Since you're confident that the definition is the same all around the world, I'm sure you have Lithuanian and Austrian examples of those.

Peter 16:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm just imagining that the lede now says that it is a scandinavian pastry, and that the region/state is set to scandinavia.. as well as all of the other inclusions of scandinavia in these edits? Very nice. . --Kim D. Petersen 16:45, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to debate whether Scandinavia is a region in which Denmark is included. I'd just like to stress that the article says "originating in Denmark", "its original county Denmark" and the following fairly unambiguous sentence: "The origin of the Danish pastry is often ascribed to a strike amongst bakery workers in Denmark in 1850."

But, Kim, you just stated that "here is no difference between Sweden, Norway, Lithuania etc. and the US with regards to Danish". That's an extraordinary claim and I gave you concrete examples of how this isn't true. If you're serious about it, you should back it up with a reliable source.

Peter 20:10, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I can't see what is extraordinary about it... They eat Danish pastry in all parts of the world, and they make varieties of the pastry all over the world as well. But outside of the fact that they (in fact) do eat pastries, they have no special connection with the foodstuff. Thus Sweden and the US have rather similar attachment to Danish pastry. It is much like any other foods that has a special regional origin, but is eaten/produced all over the world. If you could produce some verifiable special connection with Sweden or any of the other nations in the region to wienerbrød, then we could talk - but that isn't the case is it? In fact a rather strong argument can be made for the US having a stronger connection to danish pastry than Sweden, by popularizing the name. --Kim D. Petersen 21:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

You can't assume that the varieties of wienerbrød found in Denmark can be found all over the world. We're not negotiating about article content here. If you want anything reflected in article space it has to be verifiable.

Peter 21:48, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:ONUS. We have verifiable information for the importance of Denmark in Danish pastry... but there seems to be a strong lacking in verifiable information on it being more important in the rest of Scandinavia than in the rest of the world. So the onus is on those that want it expanded to provide that information. --Kim D. Petersen 21:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

You need to drop this obsession you've developed about Denmark vs "the rest of Scandinavia". No one is "rewriting history". No one is claiming Danish bakers didn't invent the Danish. No one is saying that Sweden or any other country has a claim to the "true Danish" that is somehow superior to Denmark. Swedish examples have merely been provided to alert you to the fact that Denmark has an especially varied culture related to wienerbrød.

So the issue here is simple: if you want to describe Danishes outside of Denmark, you need to confirm this with reliable sources that describe Danish pastry outside of Denmark.

Peter 22:21, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It is rather impressive that you can read my mind and deduce an "obsession developed on Denmark vs. the rest of Scandinavia"". And i rather (again) think that you misunderstand the issue. Try reading my comments again, and this time without attaching strawmen or other similar thoughts to what isn't actually written or the focus of what is written. Otherwise it does seem as if you are trolling as the below section indicates. --Kim D. Petersen 22:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm commenting on what you've actually stated here. You actually removed Scandinavia as the "Region or state" from under "Denmark" with the motivation that it was "incorrect". And before that you complained about "rewriting history" and musing about someone making this a "Swedish thing".

And now you again reply by accusing me of "attaching strawmen" and even implying that I'm trolling because we're disagreeing. That's pretty belligerent behavior.

Peter 23:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i removed Scandinavia from the template, since it is incorrect. In that template the region/state designates a subset of a country, as in for instance "Country: United States; Region/State: Mississippi". Examples Mississippi mud pie, Gazpacho, İskender_kebap. Do you have other specific complaints? --Kim D. Petersen 00:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

assume good faith and stop throwing around accusations over minor technicalities. Try to be more generous with factual arguments of your own.

Peter 01:25, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me? Are you thereby saying that Scandinavia is a subset of Denmark? Or that i'm misunderstanding the template? --Kim D. Petersen 02:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Sweden and matters Swedish were slightly over-represented in this article and have done my best to correct that now, as well as a bit of grammar, spelling, redunds and Swenglish and/or reversed Danglish. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

PS I object very strongly to some of the langaage used in this discussion, such as accusations about obesssions and other such personal attacks. Reminds me of the sarcastic and condescending way things often are discussed on Swedish Misplaced Pages, which, thank Goodness, there we have effective ways of dealing with out here on the English project. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. It is unacceptable. RhinoMind (talk) 02:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

A prank

As a further notice, I want everybody here to know, that this is all a sick prank from User:Peter Isotalo. You can follow his (and User:Bishonen's) twisted amusements here: User talk:Bishonen. I think we should report this when time permits. They are both intelligent people and are long time Misplaced Pages users and knows a lot better than this. Incidents like this should not be accepted at all on Misplaced Pages from anyone, even less so from people like them. RhinoMind (talk) 19:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• 1) Oneshould never use NPOV section titles.

Change it. You are welcome. I issued this section as a warning. RhinoMind (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It is changed now. RhinoMind (talk) 02:14, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• 2) You talk about an editor, you ping them. Like Bishonen ... Hafspajen (talk) 19:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I did, but it is not enough. I want other people on this page to know about it. And I also wants to document it for the future. RhinoMind (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• You are taking this way to personal. Hafspajen (talk) 19:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

No. I am not taking this personal at all. You maybe right that I am taking this too seriously, but I don't think so. It is not the first time I have experienced wasting time on stuff like this. It is usually done by very exprienced Wikipedians, and not only do I want to send a clear message, I also want to stop such unacceptable behaviour by other Wikipedians for the future. RhinoMind (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies is an admin, report it, if you want to... saw you had contact with him before. Or you can report everything here, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Hafspajen (talk) 19:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have, in fact, had dealings with RhinoMind before--they thought that this poorly written and poorly verified mumbo-jumbo makes for a good encyclopedic article, and I just gave up on Gellerup--yes, they exhibited the kind of behavior that drives editors away, though I should give props to Xanthomelanoussprog for sticking it out and improving that article. They also appear to be lacking in the social skills department and wish to seek authoritay ASAP, calling everything they don't like "vandalism". Where this supposed "prank" is, I have no idea, but given the characteristics of RhinoMind's writing I'll put it down to language difficulties. Peter, I'd appreciate it if you could make your vandalistic intentions more clear.

  As for the actual subject, the question is whether "Danish pastry" means "the pastry called 'Danish' in English" or "Pastry from Denmark". This problem (an artificial problem, but OK) is easily solved through the creation of Pastry of Denmark. Drmies (talk) 20:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

This article, as i understand it, is about the specific pastry called Danish (wienerbrød), designated by being a yeast raised puff pastry with 27 folded layers with butter/fat between, and not about Danish pastries in general, such as da:Napoleonshat... which while being pastry originating in Denmark, isn't a Danish. --Kim D. Petersen 00:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies Before you start attacking me, discrediting me or even engage in this issue here, you should as a minimum take some time to read up and examine what has been going on. If you then have anything more to add (of a constructive nature), then please stick to this issue.

I didn't wanted to "seek authority ASAP". I wrote what I wrote, because I felt obliged to document my intentions. I don't believe in scaring people with authorities (on Misplaced Pages), but I believe in being honest about ones intentions. RhinoMind (talk) 01:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I will take this up later. Not sure who I will contact at the moment.

To Peter. Im glad for your responses, but what you did is still unacceptable. None of us should take this too personal. I will try to stop the nature of what you did. As said, I have experienced similar stuff from other users and it cannot go on. Especially not from experienced users. This is the reason I am in this. If I was new to wikipedia I would probably just quit the project (I am afraid some people do), but I am not new to Misplaced Pages.

I really got to go now. I do have a life you know (and a job). RhinoMind (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I explained here what I meant by the post on Bishonen's talkpage. It included an apology. If you want to return the favor, please remove this thread and focus on article content.

Peter 20:31, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Reverted for no good reasons?

With a rather amazing, not to say irrelevant, edit summary - "revert some overly complicated sentences" - a user with whom I feel there have been neutrality problems before has reverted three of my recent corrections w/o discussion here.

• Here the user would like to have it that wienerbrød is the name of the pasty in "all Scandinavian languages" which is misleading, since it's only ever spelled wienerbröd in Swedish. I see no reason to be misleading like that, nor any reason to stress all in the sentence either.
• In the same revert the user wants a special sentence of its own for the Finnish language version, which I think gives that undue prominence and ends up unnecessarily distracting to what's important in the article. I tried to soften that just a bit.
• Further down in that revert the user insists on reinstating h claim that some of the pastry in that photo is not Danish pastry, though it's made of the type of dough used by Danes for all that kind of pastry, and would reasonably be known to anyone as Danish pastry. I find that revert non-constructuve and unnecessarily combative - I'm going to have my way here - toward user Kim D. Petersen who has explained, politely and factually, that all those baked goods in that photo, for all intents and purposes, in fact are Danish pastry. That particular image is helpful in enlightening our readers of the many sizes and shapes of the article subject, not just those generally known.

I will be reverting back to my considerately and carefully worded versions (without the embarrassing typo) unless anyone neutral can convince me not to do so. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:50, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Serge, some of the sentences you created were less than ideal. They made for some very difficult-to-read prose. If you want to include all the separate spellings of wienerbrød, WP:SOFIXIT instead of griping about it on the talkpage. The rest of your objections I just don't understand, especially in light of your "my way" complaint.

And as for that photo, have you actually read the previous discussion? There are three huge kanelstænger in the that image. I pointed this out without any rebuttal from Kim. As a Swede, you know damned well that the aren't Danish pastry. The image comment even specifically says that they "are not made of puff-pastry, but a yeast-dough" and you can clearly see that it's not flaky pastry. The image remains in the article, but it's further down because it shows very specific type of Danish pastry that don't seem to exist outside Denmark. And because it's a really crappy photograph with bad angles and low illustrative value.

Peter 01:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Personally i think you are confused about what the picture presents. I'm curious as to how you detect kanelstang from borgmesterstang or other flat elongated wienerbrød... and why you think that these aren't Danish (yeast raised 27 times layered puff pastry)? Here is another nice example, which is (as you can see from the recipe) made from a classic Danish dough. The variety of wienerbrød is rather immense. I would also note that i in fact did object to your claim that the items in the picture wasn't of Wienerbrød. You seem to be confusing homemade "wienerbrød" (which quite often isn't), swedish types of pastry, and actual wienerbrød as it is done in Danish bakeries (from Danish dough!). --Kim D. Petersen 02:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC) , so why it only should exist in Denmark is also a mystery to me --Kim D. Petersen 02:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)]

Object all you want. I'm going by RhinoMind's own annotations to the photo over at Commons.

Peter 02:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I've demonstrated by several links to bakers demonstrating that they are wienerbrød, i've linked to recipes, i've linked to export pages.... where is your documentation? Is Serge correct about your "my way"? --Kim D. Petersen 02:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Again, my "documentation" is the description given by the photographer, RhinoMind. I don't see how your links and arguments above change any of that.

Kim considering contributing content to the article instead of just arguing at length about minute changes in the descriptions. If you want to describe the many variants of Danish pastry available in Denmark, then just add the descriptions. Just start a "Denmark" section under "Varieties" and add all kinds of info.

Peter 09:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sorry SergeWoodzing, but I agree with this edit summary and the edit--for example, the grammatical function of "as wienerbrød" is unclear, and there is a typo at the end of that "In Danish" sentence. Wiktionary is correct on "thitherto": it's archaic. And "Danish pastries as varied in many ways in Denmark" is just not good English. Drmies (talk) 04:25, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that it is different even among the Scandinavian countries. in Norway. In Finland is called viineri and looks like this. In Sweden it is called Wienerbrød This is about how it looks And then we have Denmark - and they - they have really several types, but that is mostly only typical for Denmark. No other countries have the same definition of this pastry the same way as the Danish themselves define it. Local types developed, that are different from the general - generic type - in the rest of the world. That is why it would be good to have 1 article for the Danish from Denmark - and one for the rest... this one.

This picture - the edit war started with, sitting in the middle of the history section, is plainly wrong, it is a typical late Danish variery.

This has been removed, though this is how the pastry looks like in Norway, Finland and Sweden. I think it is wrong to illustrate the article with a variety that is found only in Denmark. Hafspajen (talk) 13:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• Also, this type - - it is not called Spandauer in Scandinavia but Wiener - Norway it is Wienerbrød, Sweden is Wienerbröd, Finland viineri .... and this is why I am going to add it back and remove the other one and put that lower down. And I SRONGLY suggest theses editors create an own article about the several types of typical Danish varieties that doesn't exist anywhere but in Denmark. Hafspajen (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC).

You are aware that Danish pastry is a particular dough right? It is the dought that defines it, not the stuffing (or lack of), shape, size or whatever. See for instance the section on Danish Pastry in "The Pie and Pastry Bible". This is not an article about variations on the theme. --Kim D. Petersen 14:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This is the type I have noticed in US. , when visiting, I know little about that Danish though. Hafspajen (talk) 13:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the dispute has mostly surrounded this image. The chocolate-covered cinnamon Danish was merely a suggested replacement because it's a very high-quality photo.

I agree about the comment about the varieties of Danishes, though. In Sweden, and apparently Finland, Danish pastry usually means about the same as the US "Danish". It's almost always a case of ett wienerbrød ("a Danish") of the Spandauer type, not a collective noun unlike fikabröd, which can refer to just about any type of pastry that is eaten with tea or coffee. There are a few variations, like the wienerlängd or the hybrid wienersemla, which is a semla made with wienerdeg, Danish pastry dough. But, again, these are pretty rare. As pointed out in this article, the variety of Danish pastry in Denmark is fairly unique.

Hafspajen, I agree that we should be clear in the article about what cultures or countries we describe, but I don't believe it would be inappropriate to have a "Danish pastry in Demmark"-section. As of now, the article is quite short, and if the Denmark description dominates too much, it can always be spun off as a separate article.

Peter 14:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah. Sure, I got into this later. But we must keep them separate. Hafspajen (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Also I don't understand, Drmies, Yngvadottir the In Sweden Danish pastry is typically made in the Spandauer-style, often with vanilla custard. - What is this 'Spandauer-style thing? If it is a Danish expression why do we use it on the English Misplaced Pages? It would be better to say something else. Hafspajen (talk) 14:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies, Yngvadottir A pastry Spandauer style - is this an English expression??? Hafspajen (talk) 14:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

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