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Conduct of Dan56

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dan56 (talk · contribs)

Topic ban requested.

User repeatedly violates WP:POINT, WP:AGF, WP:OWN, is stubbornly Wikilawyering, and repeatedly edit wars in the process as he willfully pushes his view without considering other editors' input.

• AGF: , , ,
• Recent edit warring, & WP:POINT in article editing (in the first diff, he disruptively removes reviews I'd added from the album ratings box) - chronologically: + my response: + ; + ; + + + ; + + + (←linked to Wikiproject discussion in which he said himself recently it was only a guide)

I'd addressed his behavior in article and talk page with a cordial message on his page, asking him to stop disrupting and start working collaboratively.

I know I have a disadvantage here as Dan56 has promoted many GAs or FAs (reading over ANI, that apparently tends to give you automatic pardon of Wiki guideline violations), but this user has a history of eschewing collaboration, of disruptive and tendentious editing, pushing POV, OWN attitudes, WP:battleground, disrupting editing to make a point, not assuming good faith, genre warring, accusing others of what he is exactly doing or has done, and many editors have called him out on his behavior and editing practices in the past, on various article talk pages (particularly RfCs). Dan56 evidently is not interested in changing his behavior as he feels his promotion of GAs absolves him of any responsibility for his actions and that he's potentially answerable to no one (as his unsanctioned acts would lead him to believe), evidenced, recently, here and here. Most of my encounters with him have been on the band Garbage's articles, at which he arrived about 7 months ago after being canvassed by another editor (who possibly didn't know about the policy then) in a content discussion, and where he willfully employed the same editing tactics and violations he's still willfully and freely employing.

Please see see this relevant RfC here, which is the (recent) source of this dispute, and where much of the aforementioned is evident further. Dan56 does not appear to want to contribute to a collaborative, disruption-free environment at this band's pages, where he has quarreled with me and engaged in all the aforementioned countless times. My request is a topic ban for this band's articles. What he's contributed (e.g., copy edit of reviews, date formats) (by essentially shutting out others, really) can just as easily be and have been contributed by myself or any of the other editors watching the article. And, as I pointed out in the RfC, If Dan56 had actually bothered to give me a minute or two to copy edit and fix issues and continue improving and augmenting the article, as opposed to just reverting and disrupting constructive edits none of that would occur. Of course, that appears to not be in his nature, particularly for these Garbage articles, for which he, going by all prior indication, has a bias against. --Lapadite (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Lapadite77 is personalizing a dispute which stems from my involvement at Talk:Garbage (album)#Album genres and the subsequent RfC for those genres, which didn't go Lapadite's way exactly, partly because I was invited by Andrzejbanas to weigh in and sided with him. Last October (), I began cleaning up and expanding a section at Version 2.0 and have been involved there since. My recent revisions to Lapadite's edits were justified by guidelines I don't feel he can fully grasp at the on-going RfC, where he canvassed two of his recent collaborators at other "Garbage" articles to weigh in. Lapadite argued for his version of the article by drawing comparisons to other stuff in the RfC, so I dont believe he had any intention to drastically trim and properly paraphrase the quote farm he added to the article in question. The section in question is essentially complete, considering the notability of the reviewers and the viewpoints researched, so this is appears to be another attempt at creative control. Dan56 (talk) 02:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Did I mention Dan56 had a history of accusing people of things, never admitting he has done anything wrong, and creating striking lies and misleading statements which are easily refuted by the actual, readable evidence? In that Garbage album RfC, which one can readily see, toward the end, editors called him out on his intentionally misleading tactics (for which he took 0 responsibility for and ignored the comments, and which he again similarly employed in this recent RfC, which I commented on). I created a new poll, because the other was corrupted by Dan56's tactics and lies and more useful content had also been included in the article, with an updated proposal based on recent article edits, and it went smooth and successfully. Exactly the opposite of what he claims here. This accusation - "this is appears to be another attempt at creative control" - and the hypocrisy is utterly laughable. As you can see, in accordance with my report, Dan56 does not believe he does anything wrong. All of the aforementioned, articles and diffs linked, speaks for itself, regardless of how Dan disregards and reinterprets his actions and assumes of others'. If one were to bring all the editors that have called out Dan56 on his disruptive behavior and editing practices throughout various articles they would all agree with this. I don't link to past talk discussions not directly pertaining to this dispute because it may be tacky and doing so might be interpreted negatively but I have no problem doing so if asked. This is far from a personal dispute or vendetta, which I don't care for. You can see my cordial message on his page, and after that Garbage album content dispute he linked, I had very amicably discussed with him on his page some content matters on another article; unlike him, I don't hold grudges and I'm not here for battlegrounds and disruptive practices, only to improve articles. Dan56's presence at this band's articles has been continually disruptive as his POINTy, POV-pushing, OWN, Wikilawyering, NPOV/Stick to sources-eschewal, genre warring (a significant issue during that album article discussion he linked) and lack of collaboration inhibits progress. For instance, If he hadn't disrupted improvement of that article's section (specifically the start of my constructive edits which, as I said in the RfC were far from finished) that section would've been completed right soon and without the need of all that came after it. Of course he credits the current version (which needs a checking of sources and copyediting for POV, cherry picking, sticking to source) to his mighty self, since, liked I stated above, he shut editors out and steamrolled his edits, and while RfC had just started. Again, this isn't the first time here Dan56 inhibits or significantly slows down progress here, takes ownership of an article and disregards collaboration, in the process perpetuating an environment of only disputes (as I remarked near the end of the current RfC I linked: "Is there an RfC that's not a battleground with you? To which he replied, "that's cute and all".). I strongly believe a topic ban is best. --Lapadite (talk) 04:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You need to file a report here. I recommend including only good evidence in the form of diffs. This thread will likely be closed, by someone else, accordingly. Or do you expect an admin to jump in and block the user per this report? Doc talk 08:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I expected admins to comment on ANI and consider the irrefutable content in all the links provided. Why do you think I should file a report there instead? That page says it is inactive, and the topic dispute isn't limited to RfC conduct, it also, and primarily, regards editor conduct on this band's articles, hence my request of a topic ban, and not another kind; WP:TBAN →"The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive, but to allow them to edit the rest of Misplaced Pages.". --Lapadite (talk) 09:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• Another tendentious edit, which I partially restored. --Lapadite (talk) 09:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• Another tendentious edit and reversal of copyedit/improvements, demonstrating again WP:OWN, POV, and Wikilawyering issues:

I copyedited, as edit summary details:

He wrote, in another section on the talk page, at 10:08: and 2 minutes later, made the following revert (including restoring of his tendentious, NPOV, undue weight-violating ratings replacement ): . The pre-copyediting version (his) that he restored is in many respects cherry picking, giving undue weight, and not sticking to source.

My response to his talk page post: )

I sincerely hope what has been provided and continues to be provided (obviously, again Dan56 has no plans to change his habits here) is more than enough to see why I, with reason, request a topic ban for Dan56, due to his considerable, disruptive OWN issues on this band's article, his complete disregard for collaboration, his consistent tendentious editing, knee-jerk reverts of improvements he disagrees with, violations of WP:PRESERVE and all else aforementioned.

Can any admins bother to tend to this thread? All that continues to happen is disruptive and more disruptive editing from Dan56. Lapadite (talk) 18:25, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Pinging a couple of editors, spotted while skimming ANI, that I believe are admins, to see if maybe this could start getting some attention (sorry if you're not one): Drmies, Stalwart111

I understand what Lapadite is saying, as some of my debates with Dan56 were similar in the past, but unfortunately, I think he's one of those editors that treads the line carefully, where he can come off as rude or abrasive, not its not really bad enough to warrant a block. Unless it starts escalating to personal attacks or hounding, I think a better approach would be to just keep starting discussions or RFC's, to come to a consensus that combats the WP:OWN issues. Sergecross73 msg me 20:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the disruptive editing guideline mentions some "tread the line" behaviors these kinds of editors may engage in such as: "Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article". Dan56 doesn't do blunt personal attacks, although others may disagree, and this isn't a report on personal attacks nor a proposal to ban him from editing Misplaced Pages but a request for a topic ban, to rid of his considerable, still ongoing (after 7 months) pattern of disruption at this band's articles, his considerable OWN and WP:POINTy behavior, and considerable disregard for collaboration. He's still doing it, still reverting. And presumably this guy has many editors not wanting to speak against him, perhaps admins. Pretty much every other thread at ANI has several comments. This is just ridiculous. --Lapadite (talk) 22:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

More tendentious editing: --Lapadite (talk) 01:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Part of Dan56's tendentious edits, is (first mentioned above) the constant replacing of a positive score with a negative score in the album ratings box (which already contains 10 review scores). It has been called out and explained multiple times on the talk page, noted how it's not only tendentious, but violates WP:UNDUE and WP:PRESERVE, but Dan56 keeps restoring it. There's also the persistent claim that reviews that agree on some element of an album are virtually incompatible in that regard in a reception section; summaries of reviews can't include similar opinions, unless of course for something that contradicts positive notions. Any admin's care about this pattern of disruption, OWN and tendentious editing? Seriously, this article would've been completely improved by now if Dan56 hadn't gone (and still continue) on a disruptive, tendentious crusade. --Lapadite (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this thread still open? Dan56 does like to ram a point home when he thinks he's right, the problem with that of course is that sometimes he is right. He's been very helpfully sorting out the "critical response" sections to numerous album articles to the extent that when I start improving one for WP:ALBUMS/500 I look at that and think, "good stuff, Dan's done it". With that in mind I'm just reluctant to come down like a ton of bricks on him. As others have said, he's never crossed the line into personal attacks, so all I can really advise is to just stick to the article and forget about who's saying what. It's the only sane method. Ritchie333 12:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I won't pretend I've read all of this thread, but I'm not at all surprised to see Dan56's behaviour become the subject of another discussion. Just over a year ago, I talked GabeMc out of opening an RFC/U on this user, when Gabe and several others were fed up with him, and, although I could be wrong, I believe this was the near-miss referred to in a subsequent RfC on Dan56, in August 2014. I chose not to have any input into that discussion either, but the references there to Dan56 being so obviously pro-Robert Christgau and overly controlling of article content were all too familiar. My direct contact with Dan56 has been limited mainly to tedious discussions about album genres at Talk:All Things Must Pass and Talk:Led Zeppelin IV#"Heavy metal album"; I've seen numerous, similar discussions going on over the last year or two – for instance, at Talk:Crime of the Century, Talk:Are You Experienced (can't access the archive for that page), Talk:Sgt. Pepper's – but, quite honestly, just the sight of his username is enough to ward me off, unless I consider speaking up really important. Ritchie's correct when he says that "sometimes he is right", but at the same time, Dan56 behaves as if, by divine right, he must be so at all times – there's no element of compromise, nor any awareness that he might be making working on music articles a miserable experience for others. He drives editors away from the encyclopaedia, I'm convinced of it – and I can't help thinking that's fine by him, if he alone is left working on album articles here.

Doc commented above that Lapadite needed to supply specific diffs rather than launching an unsupported attack. I don't doubt that that's the correct way to proceed, but I sympathise with the frustration that Lapadite seems to be expressing. As Sergecross73 says about Dan 56: "unfortunately, I think he's one of those editors that treads the line carefully …" So, by and large, everything appears correct per the letter of the law but (I think) at the same time he's continually falling foul of the spirit of Misplaced Pages – pillars four and five, as I understand them.

Dan56 is the only editor I've ever felt the need to watch, and for all the wrong reasons. I see him constantly laying down the law with new editors and regularly removing the protests that arrive on his talk page, when those editors are not time-wasters but have a case to present. He initiated the removal of terms such as "favourable", "mixed", "unfavourable" from the album reviewer ratings template without (as far as I can see) posting any notice at all on relevant project pages such as Albums or Rock; if those terms have to go in favour of recognised scores and ratings, then fine, but anyone proposing such far-reaching changes, you'd think, would want as broad a consensus as possible. A select few were similarly invited to a proposal on alphabetising album articles' personnel sections (after which Mudwater and I put the word out to a wider audience). To me, along with the other actions mentioned, these are examples of how this user wants to – and does, unfortunately – dominate album articles on the encyclopedia. I don't have bad feelings towards anyone on Misplaced Pages but I think admins need to address this behaviour. I said to John around the time of an episode in March 2014, it's not just about looking at diffs and specifics, it's about the entire way this user conducts himself on Misplaced Pages. That's the problem, that's why a thread like this gets opened, and it's why there'll be another one about him within six months. And as I've mentioned, there are other conflicts concerning Dan56 (the January 2014 episode) that don't even get the attention they deserve. JG66 (talk) 16:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you hit the nail on the head JG66. That is precisely the grand problem. My frustration is exactly because this concerns a longstanding pattern and is far from the first time Dan56 does this on this band’s articles - which I discussed above. Dan56 certainly has had numerous disputes with other editors on other articles regarding this kind of behavior, and he does immediately delete all objections and warnings he gets from his page, sometimes mocking the editor that leaves a message or asserting his ‘status' (e.g., here and when I left him a disruptive editing notice in September of 2014. I’d actually mentioned a few of those past disputes, admittedly inappropriately, out of frustration, in that Garbage album talk page (inside the “off topic” shell) he linked in his post here. If what admins need is more proof of Dan56’s pattern of disruption I personally and perhaps others would have no problem linking several examples there and elsewhere. But like I said before, this is a topic ban proposal for this bands’ articles as my own interactions with Dan56 have mostly been there, and his constant disruption, disregard for collaboration, and POV pushing there is intolerable at this point. The problem is Dan56, as usual, might temporarily stop his overtly tendentious disruption and then start up later after ANI thread is closed, but especially if objecting editors leave the article. Like JG66 said, It will certainly reemerge, again (like it did months after the last album dispute); editors like Dan56 who don’t get sanctioned for their disruptive actions never learn and change; obviously they'd have nothing to learn from since, as they mask POINTy, OWN and tendentious behavior largely through Wikilawyering and 'status', hiding behind it and professing no wrong doing (others are at fault and personalizing), they normally don't see consequences, beyond a ‘don’t do it again’ slap on the wrist. In fact, the lack of consequences only reinforces that behavior. I’ve personally stopped improving this particular article, at least temporarily, as I find it futile; only thing I'm still doing is restoring Dan56's tendentious, POV edits/his inability to stick to source when it doesn't suit his bias. Like JG66 mentioned, Dan56 likes to appropriate an article, shutting out others who object to his editing practices, wanting to be left to his own devices. Other editors in the past have noted how he edits tendentiously on articles of artists he does not like, but he also edits tendentiously on artists he does like (for example, the reception section of this album - an article he wrote, and fixed after much FA dispute ). You can see this in his comments in both talk pages initially linked here. I don’t know how many more diffs from this particular article are needed; figured I’d linked enough and was already tired of linking as the thread received no comments. The page history is plenty evidence of how much revert/restoring happened there as a result. Much of that has been linked here, as well as the talk page discussion.

In the recent RfC that I'd linked, the three editors that responded clearly want nothing to do with the dispute, understandably. At the start of the RfC you can see that one editor noted the inappropriateness of removing the initial reviews I’d added from the album ratings box ("simply removing everything Lapadite added seems drastic"). I'd be shocked that anyone would agree with Dan56’s egregious behavior unless they’ve agreed with Dan’s POV editing in the past. That he may be “sometimes right” - everyone is at least “sometimes right” at some point - does not remotely null or invalidate his history of disputes and disruption, disruption at this band’s articles, or any he makes in the future there and elsewhere. --Lapadite (talk) 15:23, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

More, under false pretexts: , . For how long would this need to go on? 5, 10 revision history pages? Lapadite (talk) 17:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Dan56 apparently went on overdrive instead; More again, this being the first of multiple edits largely of the same nature as previous ones and as described above (his edit summary merely repeating what I stated in the previous edit): . Restored by me here, with some fixes and additions on further edits. --Lapadite (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Action needed here; proposal

• Dan56 was the subject of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Dan56 in October 2014, which (despite the stricken participation of a sock) was closed by Beeblebrox with findings that Dan56 be reminded of WP:COPYVIO, WP:BITE, and WP:OWN.
• AN/I threads involving Dan26 after his RFC: ,

This is a complex case that I think is headed to ArbCom if it doesn't get resolved here. I have observed Dan56 in many places (he's difficult to miss if you work on any music articles) but I assert that the primary sources of his conflicts on Misplaced Pages are: plagiarism, music reviews, and music genres. I will attempt to concisely demonstrate that Dan has continued to exhibit problems with WP:COPYVIO, WP:BITE, and WP:OWN pursuant to these three items since his RFC, and then propose a remedy in an attempt to avoid ArbCom.

You haven't concisely demonstrated anything. If anything, you've barely inspected what flimsy evidence you provided below. Also, the second AN/I thread you cited above was opened by a frustrated, genre-warring IP, since blocked for being the sock I suspected. You're building a flimsy case just to draw more attention to me, simply to have some action done to me. Also, since my RfC, I fixed the close paraphrasing issues at Talk:Of Human Feelings and performed source checks before I reopened its FAC. I haven't exhibited any problems with WP:COPYVIO since then. Dan56 (talk) 05:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Plagiarism

I last interacted with Dan56 directly at this FAC where 3 different editors expressed concern about plagiarism and close paraphrasing in his writing. I was surprised by his aggressive and uncivil response to such concerns, and to my own concerns. By the second nomination, I had given up dealing with him and so had anyone else who initially offered constructive criticism. He then asked for it to be withdrawn, saying it was "tainted" because he believed one of the objectors to be a sock. Rather than conceding that Rationalobserver had any legitimate objections to his nomination, he accused her of being a sock with a grudge against him who was only opposing his nomination out of spite. He succeeding in getting Rationalobserver blocked as a sock of Jazzerino (talk · contribs), which was later demonstrated incorrect. However, Dan56 edit warred to maintain a note in the second FAC nomination calling Rationalobserver a sock. I will note that Rationalobserver will not be commenting here because she actually agreed to an interaction ban with Dan56 to demonstrate that she wasn't here just to harass him. I will also add that I thought it was sneaky that Dan56 opened this second nomination and notified several editors, but specifically did not notify the editors who opposed the first one.

The situation at Xx (album) demonstrates that the plagiarism problem has continued despite the RFC, and demonstrates how Dan56 reacts to normal constructive criticism in this realm.

I stand %100 by my suspicions and what I had to say on that matter, a matter which I did not provide the deciding evidence but @Mike V: had, who then offered this cryptic explanation as to why that decision was overturned, NOT that it was "incorrect"--it'd be great for the purposes of this insulting thread that you get your facts straight about the situations and disputes you decide to use as "evidence" here, because I feel you're painting an inaccurate picture of that situation in broad strokes. I find it equally dubious that you pretend to forget I responded to what you claim as finding "sneaky" at that FAC page. You're forcing me to explain and discuss a dispute I've been warned not to, so it's incumbent upon you not to misrepresent it. Btw, you do realize I have an open FAC for Of Human Feelings where I "reacted to normal constructive criticism"? Dan56 (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Music reviews

One of the constant sources of conflict for Dan56 is his interminable addition and removal of music album ratings and reviews to suit his personal opinion, many times with a fixation on Robert Christgau. Lapadite77 provided diffs above for recent conflicts involving reviews and ratings at Garbage-related articles. I'm concerned that Dan cherry-picks and promotes/demotes sources to back up his preferred vision for how the reviews and rating should be reflected. Here is a good example of his removing a source he doesn't like under an unclear and disingenuous edit summary. You would think he was simply adding Newsweek and NME, but he is also removing a source he has argued against without clear rationale or consensus. These are clear WP:OWN violations post-RFC.

I'm tired of having to defend myself against this type of nonsense. Being as active and involved as I am means you're going to butt heads with some fancruft and POV-driven editors from time to time, but I'm offended by your accusation that I add or remove ratings or reviews based on my personal opinion--on one hand you say I'm fixated on Robert Christgau, yet support Lapadite77's assertion that I have a negative opinion of an album (article) which Christgau gave a positive review of? I addressed and explained my role in this "Garbage-related" dispute already in my comment above on 3 February. Furthermore, your above example demonstrates what a flimsy case you are making--did you bother to read anything at the article's talk page where the review sources were being discussed?... because that edit was made when I made a case for a source I had originally added be removed in favor of obviously more notable sources per MOS:ALBUM#Critical reception. Either make a close inspection of this dispute--that article's talk page, each editor's edit summaries and arguments--or don't bother slinging vague accusations of ownership at me when the same could and should be said about the other guy (WP:BOOMERANG). The burden is on you to read through Talk:Version 2.0#Revisions to Critical reception and the corresponding revisions made to the article during that discussion, if you're to introduce it here as some kind of evidence of disruptive editing made on my part. Dan56 (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

This, for the record, is emblematic of the ownership issues exhibited by Lapadite77 on Garbage-related articles, articles I hardly care about, with the exception of Version 2.0, whose Critical reception I took upon myself to improve and expand starting last October, with (take a guess)... positive reviews! () But then I continued my research and found reviews not to the liking of Lapadite77. Dan56 (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Music genres

Again for anyone editing music articles, you will see Dan56 all over your watchlist because he reverts anonymous and established editors who attempt to alter the genres on any article he watches, without any rationale or explanation. This is well-documented in his RFC, and he has continued the behavior despite the RFC findings. You needn't go further than the first page of his contributions to find him reverting genre changes calling them vandalism ("rvv"). Most of the time he's changing one unsourced genre to another. This violates WP:BITE (calling people's good-faith contributions vandalism) and WP:OWN (attempting to control the genres on large selections of articles without sources or discussion).

Untrue. Also, the link you provided is my revision restoring the genre sourced in the body of the article. With what I've contributed to Misplaced Pages, including the improvements I stand by at Version 2.0, I deserve for my accusers to get their facts straight rather than relying on their impression of isolated disputes I've been involved in. Dan56 (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed solutions

We need some help here. Beeblebrox, since you closed the RFC, perhaps you can be of some assistance in putting this to bed. I don't think any progress has been made since the RFC. Therefore, I propose the following:

1. Dan56 is required to solicit an independent plagiarism review for any article he's developing before nominating it for either GA or FA status.
2. Dan56 is prohibited from editing reviews or ratings on music articles unless he is specifically preparing that article for GA or FA status.
3. Dan56 is prohibited from adding, removing, or changing genres on music articles unless he is specifically preparing that article for GA or FA status. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 21:00, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment - The genre warring too characteristic of past dispute at the album Garbage article. I support the proposed solutions, especially the second and third. However, Dan56 could just use the 'preparing article' as a pretext, augmenting the OWN and WP:POINT issues. --Lapadite (talk) 04:13, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment - Dan56 characterizes the aforementioned as "isolated disputes". Let's see, a scan through the ANI archives of the past year also brings up: ; ; , where an editor who initially disagreed with the OP of the report said:

"All that said, I do not think Dan's hands are clean here. Some of his reverts are questionable: Reverting here to revert Harmelodix's "unexplained removal", for instance struck me as odd; it's not an "unexplained removal" in the content blanking sense. Harmelodix merely restructured the first two sentences. If Dan's intent was to invoke WP:BRD, he should have explained it and started a discussion. This revert, which the edit summary says was in order to revert an unexplained reversion... is just weird. I believe that Dan's behavior in these articles is a bit controlling; I'm not prepared to invoke WP:OWN just yet, but it's what I'd call petty. Misplaced Pages doesn't need to have the exact verbiage that Dan prefers ... I think Dan's inscrutable edit summaries, picky reasons for reverting, and curious unwillingness to engage in discussion at article talk pages serve to violate WP:BITE. While I don't think a sanction is needed at this point, Dan needs to try to work with Harmelodix rather than revert when he sees something he disagrees. Misplaced Pages is a group project, not an adversarial proceeding; work needs to take the form of a collaboration, not a negotiation with offers and counter-offers. Finally, I would formally warn Dan that WP:TEDIOUS is a redirect for "tendentious editing": if his intent is to suggest that another editor's edits are tedious, he should not be putting that link in his edit summaries (I would also argue that calling another editor's edits "tedious" is not particularly friendly)."

and , where Dan56 is reminded: "I see the changes as improvements, albeit minor ones. Just because the article is an FA, does not mean that it cannot be improved or changed for the better. Please remember it is a collaborative project, repeatedly templating good faith editors is just not good practice and often invites a hostile response." --Lapadite (talk) 09:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Both the report and the ANI threads you are referring to involve editors who were found to be sock puppets or IPs evading a block--Harmelodix and 5.81.225.225. Just like in your research for the articles you edit, you haven't critically assessed the sources for the case you are trying to make and instead are relying on making a lot of noise with weak evidence in hopes that whoever makes a decision on this matter wont carefully look through it. Dan56 (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Dan's insubstantial, retaliation claims shtick was addressed in the talk page here, where he first professed them. On that note, again the start of more disruption and WP:TE of the same from Dan56, likewise just mimicking my previous restore edit summary (mentioned in above section). Does he care, think he's at fault in anything, or believe he will see any real consequences? Clearly not. He is still reverting what has already been called out for multiple guideline-violations or cleared up on the talk page. Given the nature of some of the content in this subsection created by Spike Wilbury, I'd remind that after the first disagreement and dispute with Dan56 at this article he too accused me of Wikihounding (addressed here), as previously noted in the first post of this ANI thread. --Lapadite (talk) 00:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"Shtick"? That's cute, you used a word from the Newsweek review you've removed numerous times without explanation. And on that note, the start of more "disruption and WP:TE of the same" from Lapadite77, who is still reverting after having been called out for multiple guideline-violations or cleared up on the talk page. Given the nature of this insulting thread, I'd like to bring up the fact that Lapadite made these edits here while editing had grown hot and tempered between us at Version 2.0. In any case, I've opened multiple RfCs now at the article's talk page, because Lapadite is showing little civility or competence concerning the guidelines his edits are violating. Dan56 (talk) 05:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It is clear Dan56 is merely repeating exactly what I've said to him regarding his gross guideline-violating behavior and edits, on talk page and edit summaries, and projecting exactly what he's been accused of doing. Everything is on the talk page and page history, and detailed above. Dan56 opened two more RfCs (with multiple misleading statements, unsurprisingly) and restored his WP:TE, WP:POV, possibly WP:OR edit again, which was questioned and challenged on the talk page; one of his reverts states: "unexplained removal", which is not the case and is something one of the editors quoted above from a past ANI questions Dan56 on *. It is beyond clear, from all that has been discussed and linked, how much WP:OWN is exhibited, and how disruptive, biased, and uncollaborative Dan56 is; particularly at this band's articles. He has been called out and warned multiple times on various talk pages and ANIs before, and, looking through ANI, edit warring, and SPI archives, Dan56 appears to been been blocked multiple times in the past for disruptive behaviors, largely edit warring. It is clear he has not learned and has no plans to. Nor does he appear to have read the entire ANI thread as I pointed out more than once his lack of ASG and baseless accusation of Wikihounding, which, like I'd said. and linked, was addressed on the talk page.

I do not think Dan's hands are clean here. Some of his reverts are questionable: Reverting here to revert Harmelodix's "unexplained removal", for instance struck me as odd; it's not an "unexplained removal" in the content blanking sense. Harmelodix merely restructured the first two sentences. If Dan's intent was to invoke WP:BRD, he should have explained it and started a discussion. This revert, which the edit summary says was in order to revert an unexplained reversion... is just weird. I believe that Dan's behavior in these articles is a bit controlling; I'm not prepared to invoke WP:OWN just yet, but it's what I'd call petty. Misplaced Pages doesn't need to have the exact verbiage that Dan prefers ... I think Dan's inscrutable edit summaries, picky reasons for reverting, and curious unwillingness to engage in discussion at article talk pages serve to violate WP:BITE. While I don't think a sanction is needed at this point, Dan needs to try to work with Harmelodix rather than revert when he sees something he disagrees. Misplaced Pages is a group project, not an adversarial proceeding; work needs to take the form of a collaboration, not a negotiation with offers and counter-offers. Finally, I would formally warn Dan that WP:TEDIOUS is a redirect for "tendentious editing": if his intent is to suggest that another editor's edits are tedious, he should not be putting that link in his edit summaries (I would also argue that calling another editor's edits "tedious" is not particularly friendly)."

No one has questioned what Lapadite calls my "WP:TE, WP:POV, possibly WP:OR edit" other than Lapadite himself, who has been the one accusing me of tedious or tendentious editing at Version 2.0 since the content dispute began. After I had opened the first RfC there, he canvassed other editors who had worked with him on other "Garbage-related" articles (, ). His most recent "unexplained removal" that he is referring to is his removal of text expressing criticism of the article's topic from The Times and NME magazine, a removal he did not explain in any way, either in an edit summary or at the talk page. I don't understand why he continues to refer to the sockpuppet case of Harmelodix, who was in fact found to make tedious GNOME-like edits at good/featured articles I had either created or promoted. Dan56 (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Regarding this thread, it's nothing new for a disgruntled editor whose edits have been disputed to accuse those disputing his edits of disruptive editing and edit warring at an ANI thread. In fact, Lapadite's done it before, here and here, where he accused Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs) of ownership and edit warring at, you guessed it, a "Garbage-related" article. Before Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) invited me to a discussion at one, I had no interest in Garbage articles. I regret having the idea of improving Version 2.0 because of having to interact with such fan-fueled ownership on the part of Lapadite, but all this crap he's flinging at my character and motives doesn't obligate me to bow out. Dan56 (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

More projecting from Dan56, like I noted at the beginning of the ANI, throwing out accusations and (laughably) claiming things of which he is guilty. How predictable; randomly citing the two times I've posted on ANI - one seeking resolution on an article tag dispute after reverts of by two editors who were uncivil, the other, reporting an editor's edit warring on an article, as one can clearly see. On the other hand, one can see from all aforementioned part of Dan's history of being the subject of ANI and other disputes, regarding various articles and various editors, as well as his block history. Obviously Dan56 is "disgruntled" with and inconvenienced by having another ANI report on him, and the possibility of actual consequences, such as a topic ban or the aforementioned by Spike Wilbury, which then won't allow him to freely and persistently subject others to his WP:OWN, WP:TE, WP:EW disruptive behavior on selected articles. See how he's continued engaging in all the aforementioned while the ANI is opened, but arguably to a less degree than before the report; I can imagine his drive after it is closed if nothing were to come of it. More WP:TE from Dan56, also misrepresenting a tag: --Lapadite (talk) 03:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

IMO, Lapadite's only concern in this thread is removing my presence from Version 2.0 so he can develop that article to suit his preferences (WP:OWN), by any means necessary. Dan56 (talk) 04:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

And again, which is, in actuality, precisely Dan56's concern and source for being "disgruntled" at this ANI and his retaliation claims. --Lapadite (talk) 04:37, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

In reference to Lapadite's accusation that I "misrepresented a tag", he is not being truthful. this diff clearly shows he added a "failed verification" tag without good reason, to which I responded in my following revision and removed the tag. He then added a different tag, albeit with the edit summary "Undid revision by Dan56", and is now falsely accusing me of misrepresenting it. He added a "failed verification" tag, and I responded to it in my revert. Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Dan56 lies and misleads again; The actual order is as follows: I added the 'failed verification' tag (6:02), changed it to the appropriate one (6:49), then many hours and edits later, Dan56 removed the tag, misrepresenting it as the old one that was replaced (19:28).

He's also edit warred again, whilst violating BRD during another RFC he opened: , , my talk page comment --Lapadite (talk) 04:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG. Also, you removing my original addition of prose from NME's review and then choosing to revise it after I had restored what you'd reverted doesn't make your revised version the original. Dan56 (talk) 06:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Responding to Dan56's initial edit, which was replaced by the one above; Another frankly pathetic projection of what Dan himself has been called out on multiple times, by various editors. Dan56 also said this on the talk page. Notice how he also sidestepped evidence of his lies. Dan56, re the above, you need to respond on the talk page, not here. That is not the case at all, and I suggest you read WP:BRD thoroughly. --Lapadite (talk) 06:19, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

That Wikihounding accusation Dan56 made and linked to (as did I initially) on articles Coexist (album) and Xx (album)? Now, Dan56 has reverted the two edits made by me which he formerly agreed with → revert #1 , revert #2. Did I not mention the retaliation, hypocrisy and projection of his own behaviors? --Lapadite (talk) 06:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Problem is, ANI is for incidents, not behavior. The RfC on Dan, mentioned above and available at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Dan56, was railroaded by a sock, but as closer Beeblebrox mentioned, there were legitimate concerns there, and a shortlist of recommendations. We've done away with the RfC/U process, of course, and I don't know what it is replaced with, but RfC/Us were precisely for these kinds of situations, for patterns of behavior that indicate disruption of one kind or another without crossing the boundary of CIVIL, for instance, or EW. I'm not familiar with the editor who filed the claim here, but I am with Ritchie333, whose opinion I value, and JG66 has a slew of GAs and doesn't seem to have fallen off a turnip truck. Dan56, I strongly urge you to make a substantive comment here, not just a repartee of an individual comment by Lapadite. Because it is possible that an admin in a foul mood comes by here and says, hmm, yes, longterm issues of OWNership and favoritism of this source over that, BITEyness of new editors, borderline edit warring, canvassing and copyright issues, hmm already suggested by an RfC going back a half a year and still happening--perhaps some action is warranted. I'm not going to be that admin since I think the good outweighs the bad, and you do a lot of good stuff around here, but sheesh Dan, please address the actual criticism. You may not want to be a teamplayer, but you simply have to be. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Drmies. The problem is that, Dan56 merely getting just another slap on the wrist, another "be a team player, don't do it again". As he has shown and actually implied himself countless times, he has no plans to change his disruptive editing practices and behavior. The conglomerate of evidence presented is unequivocal, the long pattern of disruption and disputes unequivocal, the number of editors in the past speaking out against Dan56's behavior unequivocal, and yet because Dan56 has promoted some GAs and FAs (I'm sure given his history, appropriating articles himself) or has some admin connection, there's hesitation? If this were an IP, or a new editor, they would have been sanctioned, blocked or topic banned right quickly. I've edited collaboratively with multiple editors from various Wikiprojects who've written and promoted multiple GAs and FAs and have never had any problems with any of them; they actually work collaboratively, are civil and uphold guidelines, and don't hide behind some 'status' to go on doing as they please where they please. 'Status'/WP accomplishments doesn't and shouldn't give one a free pass for such egregious editing behavior. WP:HERE, WP:NOTHERE. Drmies, ANI appears to be the only place to report this, something that isn't remotely an isolated incident. See Dan56's hypocritical, laughable, projecting claim above: "IMO, Lapadite's only concern in this thread is removing my presence from Version 2.0 so he can develop that article to suit his preferences (WP:OWN), by any means necessary" - speaks volumes. I mean what more is there to say, beyond more corroboration and more links? Admins either disregard (thereby implicitly validating) this long pattern of WP:DIS, WP:OWN, WP:TE, WP:POINT, WP:BITE, WP:CHERRYPICK, WP:Wikilawyering, WP:HOUND, not WP:AGF (e.g., ; , , , , ), WP:POV, WP:GWAR +, or they actually decide to take long due action. --Lapadite (talk) 00:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Lapadite, I don't know what to tell you. I'm somewhat on the fence and since I participated in the RfC I'm hardly uninvolved, even if I did know what to do here. This needs more eyes, no doubt. Drmies (talk) 02:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Dan56 - I will say again what I said six months ago, and what User:Drmies alluded to four months ago. There is a counter-intuitive aspect to extremely possessive involvement with articles or with the characterization of their genres. You have been so heavily involved in some articles that you risk losing the ability to be involved with them at all, because Misplaced Pages does not allow an editor to assume ownership of articles. A common response to article ownership attitudes is a topic ban, and you risk being topic-banned from music articles. I warned you of that six months ago. I won't make the proposal to impose that ban at this time, but I don't see a positive or collaborative response by you, and I am likely to support a proposal by another editor to impose a topic-ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This thread has gone on for more than a week, and it is time either to consider a topic-ban or to close the thread with one final warning. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

You might find an uninvolved admin by posting on AN. Sadly TParis left us--that's one fewer admin who wasn't afraid to jump in and cut Gordian knots. Drmies (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, is it appropriate to post this on AN? The noticeboard says: "If you are seeking administrator intervention for a specific issue or dispute, you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead." I think, if uninvolved admins aren't available and this is unresolved then ArbCom would be the final step. --Lapadite (talk) 05:02, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Lapadite77 - Yes. Yes, I will explain. Your reading is correct that this board is for specific issues and disputes, and this is a specific issue or dispute; but User:Drmies was suggesting that a request for formal closure of this thread be posted to WP:AN, not that this thread be restarted on AN. This thread has gone on for more than a week, and is getting nowhere. You are continuing to dump about Dan56's article ownership, with which I agree, and about Dan56's copyright issues, which I haven't looked at, but have not taken the time to make a formal proposal. You are just venting, and are continuing to engage in personal attacks. (Yes, it is still a personal attack to say that an editor is lying.) At the same time, Dan56 is continuing to restate his issues with the editing by other editors and to say that there are other bad editors who are worse. Since you, Lapadite77, won't make a formal proposal for a topic-ban, this thread is just wasting pixels. What is now needed is a request for formal closure of this thread, which has degenerated to just two editors dumping on each other. It probably will end in another final warning to Dan56, and it should also end in a warning to you, Lapadite77, about accusations of lying. This thread needs formal closure. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:08, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Right: AN is the place to find a sucker admin willing to read this over and close it. I do think that Robert McClenon has a valid point, that this is devolving into little more than namecalling: "more heat than light" is likely a phrase used by a closing administrator, and that's kind of a shame. Drmies (talk) 16:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I see that you, User:Lapadite77, did include a request for a topic-ban in your post above that was too long, difficult to read. You buried it in there with a dump. If you had provided a heading requesting a topic-ban, you might have gotten Support comments, but you expected that everyone would read its whole length. In a fairer world, we would have read it, and you wouldn't have posted it, and you might have been blocked for the accusation of lying. (Even if you know with 100% certainty that Dan56 is making incorrect statements, can you read his mind to know that he knows that they are incorrect? If not, saying that he is lying is a personal attack.) I have taken the advice of Drmies and requested closure. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon I'm not familiar with proper protocol here. You're right it was muddled in explanations. I'll add it to the heading for what it's worth. I see you had already requested closure on AN. --Lapadite (talk) 00:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), unless you take a considerate and meaningful look into whatever disputes or "evidence" brought up in this thread, including the pathetic example posted under "Music genres" which I exposed in my response to it, then I don't feel the need to dignify this thread any longer. If you're interested in editors who exhibit ownership attitudes, then refer to this AN/I thread below, where Lapadite has responded by throwing the same accusations (WP:OWN, tendentious editing, etc.) at Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs). Dan56 (talk) 15:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Dan56 is misrepresenting again. Homeostasis isn't a random editor that reported me, Homeostasis was with Dan56 in the past dispute at a Garbage article, doing the exact same thing Dan56 was doing (all in the links provided here), albeit to a lesser degree there (Dan56 really had it covered). He was reported by me for edit warring for tendentious editing on another of that band's article in October 2014 (which was linked here and in the report below). I haven't had any interaction with him since; he's disgruntled about this report (which he mentions), and the only thing he's doing is retaliating, accusing me of the things Dan56 is reported for here using the same links used here, sticking up for his likeminded ally there, and engaging in 'character assassination'. Like I said there, just a baseless retaliation report; And that is the kind of thing that would warrant a warning for the editor who posted it. --Lapadite (talk) 23:52, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

^ An absolutely ridiculous and misrepresenting summation of events. I was never "with" Dan56, I merely opposed Lapadite77's proposal here, since then I've stayed well clear of this mess. Here is the bogus edit warring report Lapadite filed against me in October (nothing to do with "tendentiousness", like he's trying to suggest). As you can see, it was dismissed as "no violation", that still didn't stop him complaining to the closing admin. I'm surprised @Robert McClenon: and @Drmies: have reacted to Dan56 the way they have. If you actually delve in to what Lapadite is posting, you'd see some serious skewing and misrepresentation of the entire situation. The links Lapadite77 posted here to demonstrate Dan56's "long pattern of WP:DIS, WP:OWN, WP:TE, WP:POINT, WP:BITE, WP:CHERRYPICK, WP:Wikilawyering, WP:HOUND, not WP:AGF" were in fact Dan reverting genuine vandalism. At least he attempted to post some diff's this time. He usually just calls you "tendentious" and accuses you of Cherrypicking, OWN, NPOV and OR without ever providing a diff. Lapadite77 has a seriously unhealthy attitude towards contributing to Misplaced Pages, and this entire situation stems from it. He has a huge "me-against-the-world" mentality. Instead of discussing something decently, he immediately accuses opposing editors of all sorts of things - pick a WP:, any WP: - and has demonstrated Badfaith and lacked Civility at every turn. And despite FOUR separate RfC's at Talk:Version 2.0, he is still edit warring there. Action of some kind would be appreciated either here or here, because the level of disruption is ridiculous. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

What a joke. One can see just how biased Homeostasis is when he deems my recent linking of Dan56's continued overt edit warring at the Version 2.0 article (again clear POV-pushing, and tendentious editing, such as removal of positive reviews from reliable sources, refusing to provide verifiable citation/source, as stated in the diffs there) to be evidence of edit warring on my part, not his. He has not and does not at all disagree with Dan56's tendentious editing and OWN behavior, nor his edit warring (which he himself has evidently engaged in in the past) at that bands articles of course. See how he, like Dan, just repeats the exact language I've used in my report on Dan56 on the baseless accusations fest in which he's instilled himself. Unlike what he claims, Homeostasis is not remotely just a random editor that stumbled upon the rfc from that Garbage (album) dispute linked and "merely opposed" a proposal from me on that article (which was, unlike what both have claimed, and as one can easily see toward the end of it, successful); we had had a disagreement before, and he showed on the talk page of another of this bands articles that he has a bias against that band. That was the subject of the edit warring report I opened on him in October 2014, which he calls "bogus" as the admin that closed it deemed the edit warring no violation because it was a 'content dispute'. In the Garbage (album) talk dispute he and Dan56 linked, he had accused me (out of all the other editors there) multiple times of being an IP that was making unwanted edits on the article. If admins care for this particular, involved dispute from Homeostasis, I have no problem providing the diffs for all I've mentioned. Until then, this is merely a pointless, redundant, vendetta-driven series of ranting posts from an editor that has nothing to do with this particular report but is just disgruntled that Dan56, whom he supports, is being reported, by me. As Robert McClenon had suggested above, this is the kind of thing that does warrant a warning for the editor. --Lapadite (talk) 01:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Hasteur's Alternative Proposal

Since this thead is way over the TL:DR threshold, I suggest we reset it with some basic ground rules.

1. Lapadite77 come up with a short and concise posting explaining the problem, what supporting documentation they have (diffs only, no editorializing), and what resolution they seek from Dan56.
2. Dan56 responds in 1 section without cutting up Lapadite77's comments explaining what mitigating circumstances may be present.
3. Both "disputants" then step back and not post unless specific questions are directed at them (probably via {{U}} pings).
4. The community at large reviews the issues at hand and decides what the best way to resolve this dispute that has passed over from content to conduct disruption.

Please feel free to comment, but I'm frankly sick and tired of raging back and forth with no resolution. Hasteur (talk) 14:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary of report - In an attempt to gather from months of exceedingly disruptive pattern of editing culminating on the article in question, Version 2.0 (an album from the band Garbage), primary points are presented in the following:

·Proposal – Topic ban for Dan56 (talk · contribs), from Garbage articles, or, as proposed by others, from editing/reverting music reviews, ratings and genres on music articles.
·Reason – repeatedly and willfully violates multiple guidelines and repeatedly edit wars in the process as he deliberately pushes his view whilst disregarding other editors' input. Long-standing violations of WP:OWN, WP:POINT, WP:DIS, WP:TEND, WP:CHERRYPICK, WP:NPOV, WP:COLLAB, WP:BRD, WP:WAR, WP:GWAR, WP:AGF, WP:LAWYERING, WP:HOUND (Dan56 has also been denounced for WP:BITE and WP:COPYVIO in the past, pointed out by an editor who commented here, Spike Wilbury), and zero indication Dan56 has ever had or has any plans to change (WP:HERE, WP:NOTHERE), which he himself has implied more than once (e.g., , , , )
·Some diffs (far too many to list all, but not opposed to presenting more if asked) – largely taken from posts throughout this thread:

• AGF: , , , ; adressed here and here
• "Hounding":
• WP:TEND, WP:POINT, WP:POV, Cherry picking, edit warring, in article editing (in the first diff, disruptively removes reviews I'd added from the album ratings box) - chronologically: + + ; + ; + + + ; + + + ; , /, , , , , , , , , ; , , ; + + , ; , , ; + , , , , , , , , ;

Talk page where 'discussion'/lack of collaboration took place: RfC sections, and the section above them. Past band album article where the same, all of the above behavior (including genre warring), was exhibited (about 7 months): 6th - 7.2 sections

Summary of the above sections of this report — Diffs are spread out and generally contextualized throughout this report. Dan56, in response and throughout out a back and forth, would repeat the same language and points I did in my report in retaliation with inaccurate accusations (which he also did in article diffs, some linked above). I called him out on lying/misrepresenting in the following, with evidence (which he then sidestepped, changing the subject): → , , ; → → , → . Dan56 accuses me precisely of what his motives evidently are: ; . Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs) - an editor that has nothing to do with this report, but is involved and entirely biased as (a)he had participated with Dan56, supporting his WP:TE, POV editing, in a past dispute at one of this band's articles, (b)has had prior disputes with me regarding the same issues at this band's articles, (b)was reported by me for edit warring through persistent, repetitive WP:TE on one of this band's articles in October of 2014 - then began making 'character assassination' posts on me on ANI, using the same language and points I did in this report through inaccurate and baseless accusations against me, because he is disgruntled Dan56 is reported, by me in particular, for doing doings he's supported at this band's articles.
I can provide more diffs or further explanation/clarification of anything if needed. The Version 2.0 revision history along with its talk page revision history is notable.

Spike Wilbury created a subsection above further elaborating on some of Dan56's past disputes and initiating a proposal; JG66 also commented on Dan56's history. An admin, User:Drmies, commented above, but said they are/were in some way involved therefore will not make a verdict. User:Robert McClenon, who commented above, asked on AN (February 2) for an uninvolved admin and closure.
Pinging editors that have publicly commented on this report: Ritchie333, JG66, Spike Wilbury, Drmies, Robert McClenon, Hasteur. --Lapadite (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Come on, really? Does that response really strike you as "short and concise"? You're shooting yourself in the foot every time you write a massive wall of text like that - you're scaring away people because they don't want to search through all of that. Sergecross73 msg me 14:21, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Sergecross73, Concise means brief but comprehensive; all the relevant, primary points of the report were summarized above, succinctly. Are you telling me admins are unable to click on diffs and read the subsequent two short paragraphs? That this report is invalid or useless because there are too many parts to the issue? Like other editors above remarked, this is a complex, perennial issue, and it can't be summarized in just 2 or 3 sentences or a few random diffs. What was said by other editors in the report I believe needed to be summarized as well in order for it to be a concise representation of the report, of the issues presented. Sergecross73, you're an admin, why haven't you at least commented on this matter? Lapadite (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm telling you we're all volunteers here, and like all writers, you need to to write to keep the interest of the reader. People's eyes just glaze over when you write these excessively long entries. You're writing to humans, not machines. Humans who have time and motivational constraints. Write me off all you want, it's pretty obvious you're going about this all wrong, or this discussion wouldn't be running past the 2 week mark now. Sergecross73 msg me 20:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Just asked why you hadn't commented on it. I don't know how any of this is interesting really, or could be presented interestingly. Nothing in this section is 'excessively long' though; there's a Proposal statement, a Reason statement, Diffs linked, and then two short paragraphs. I gather that editors here simply don't care to pay attention to the points and diffs given, disregarding the obvious fact that this isn't a one-time incident warranting two or three diffs and sentences. Do ask yourself, if this were an IP being reported for long-standing disruption would this have gone on as long? --Lapadite (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you missed my point. Maybe sub in "attention span" for "interest" and you'll get what I'm saying a little better? Anyways, I did respond to you, 2 weeks ago, when it all began. I don't like or approve of Dan56's interactions with others, but based on past precedent, it still manages to fall on the side of what we tend to tolerate. It falls more into "rude" than outright personal attacks or being uncivil. Sergecross73 msg me 00:05, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes I get what you're saying. I'm saying I see no way to trim the summary without leaving out pertinent points representing the ANI report. Sorry, you're right, I see that you did comment (didn't see it when I skimmed through the thread). This report wasn't and isn't at all about personal attacks though. I'd said myself, agreeing with your first comment, that Dan56 "treads the line" carefully in his disruptive, tendentious editing, even if he does fail to assume good faith many times, as linked above. That's the problem I see, that this deliberate "tread the line" behavior over however many months is tolerated here without consequence merely because he isn't overtly uncivil. The only thing that will follow is more tendentious edit warring from Dan56 (which has continued), disregarding guidelines and others' input. I'm sure when he's the subject of another dispute/report again, he will again be implicitly validated through lack of action. --Lapadite (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

The fact that this "is not about personal attacks" is exactly my point - much of the time, action isn't taken until things have escalated to that point. Like I said, I certainly don't personally like Dan56's actions, and I won't stand in the way of anyone who wants to take administrative action against him, I just don't think anything warranted yet. Sergecross73 msg me 13:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but with the best will in the world, all my brain can parse is "blah blah blah Dan56 blah Dan56 blah blah WP:WALLOFDIFFS Dan56". If things are that bad, and the RfC hasn't had any effect, then the only thing left that I can suggest is an Arbcom case. I'll reiterate that I've never really had a problem with Dan and his ability to stop an album infobox going from "Category: Rock" to "Category: Rock, Art Rock, Experimental Rock, Weird Rock, Shoegazing Rock, Uneasy Listening, WP:GARAGE Rock" is very much appreciated. Actually, having had a look at Version 2.0's history, an interaction ban between Dan56 and Lapadite77 might be another answer - if they both work away from each other on something else, it'll stop this thread. Ritchie333 21:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes you said in an above section that you personally don't find Dan56 to be disruptive because you've agreed with some of his edits in the past. I do find it interesting that you deliberately disregard "wall of diffs" here. Regarding your genres claim, Dan56, as discussed on this ANI thread, has genre warred multiple times on music articles (including this band's), and the genres presently in the infobox of Version 2.0 (6) were all added by Dan56; I haven't touched the infobox of that article. If the reaction to all disputes on Dan56's disruptive editing on music articles he takes ownership of is some interaction ban between Dan56 and the editor that reports him then that is troubling. The implication here is beyond troubling: Dan56 shows no wrong doing in 7-month long OWN, tendentious, disruptive editing at this band's articles, and the editor reporting him is only ranting incoherently and should be IB'd so Dan56 continues doing as he pleases. --Lapadite (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

@Lapadite: I have to echo the message from some of the recent posts. I was intending to jump in after Sergecross73 a few hours ago, but … well, blink and it just keeps growing. You've had some support in this thread, and you know that, but you're continually shooting down any potency in those arguments with your repetition of the situation. I'm sure I said something similar to GabeMc early last year: by buzzing around in everyone's face, you're actually running interference for the other guy. If people welcome Dan56's input with an album article's critical reception or genres, for instance, as mystifying as that may be, you can't hold it against them here.

Someone above mentioned that an admin might just come along to a thread like this and take some drastic measures against the user in question, perhaps as a result of his past record. (I think I've got that right – it's hard to find the message now.) They might do, or they might not. Or it might happen in the near future, in which case this thread should be a contributing factor. So, really, what's important is that in the next dispute involving Dan56, someone, particularly an admin, can refer to this discussion and glean something useful. People build their reputation and perhaps this is just another block, but I worry that the more you write, the less effective this whole thread will be. (So please do not feel the need to reply to this message!)

Anyway, where's that turnip truck …? JG66 (talk) 02:30, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

JG66, I do feel the need to reply to this one, because my comment: "I do find it interesting that you deliberately disregard "wall of diffs" here" does not say "you should not welcome Dan56's input on an album's article". That is not what I mean to say at all, and I resent that implication. Richie333 said: "all my brain can parse is "blah blah blah Dan56 blah Dan56 blah blah WP:WALLOFDIFFS Dan56", hence my comment. "So, really, what's important is that in the next dispute involving Dan56, someone, particularly an admin, can refer to this discussion and glean something useful." - Yes, and like I've already said, that is expected result every time; another warning, another, etc. JG56, I've just responded to editors' replies, clarifying where I feel is needed; no harm meant. Thanks for your input though. This thread was posted a week ago on AN for an 'uninvolved admin' to assess and close it. Just waiting for that to happen. --Lapadite (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Lapadite77 hasn't even specified what topic he thinks Dan56 should be topic-banned from. It presumably has to do with music, but he or she hasn't specified the scope. Both for that reason and because Lapadite77 hasn't even been concise when Hasteur suggested being concise, Oppose a topic-ban (on something). Robert McClenon (talk) 03:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Did in the ANI, but it's specified now at the beginning of this section. --Lapadite (talk) 06:02, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the diffs, but if copyvio is an issue then a topic ban is not a remedy but more of a bandaid. An I-ban solves nothing. What is needed is examination of the allegations and then sanctions or exoneration depending on findings. Given the lack of interest here, as it requires a detailed look, I recommend a case request at arbcom. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:15, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Chaulin humberto tuteto

• Chaulin humberto tuteto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User keeps creating problematic articles, then removing the various deletion templates that come as the result of problematic article creation.

• Removal of AfD templates:

• Removal of PROD templates:

• Restoring article after AfD result was to convert article to redirect: .

I seem to recall the user removing speedy delete templates, but I believe those might have disappeared when the related articles were deleted. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:39, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

• As Chaulin humberto tuteto has been blocked numerous times in the past, it is evident that he has not learned his lesson. Therefore, I recommend for him to be blocked indefinitely. - Areaseven (talk) 00:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) Minor nitpick: It's not against policy to remove a {{prod}}. "You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to deletion for any reason." the template says. Kleuske (talk) 12:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

A valid nitpick. Given the other behavioral matters, specifically his removal of AfD templates and CSD templates (which I can't find b/c I don't have access to deleted articles), what I'm painting is a portrait of an editor who submits sub-par content, has a personal interest in keeping it up, so he removes templates to support his personal preference. The user has not discussed any of these removals, nor has the editor participated in any of the AfDs. They're avoiding consensus. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• The user also refuses to add sources when editing in spite of numerous requests on their talk page to do so. The Toy Story 2 content linked here seems to demonstrate a lack of understanding about what sort of content is noteworthy and deserving of inclusion. Reruns of an English language film on Spanish language network Telemundo does not qualify as noteworthy, particularly when there is no context to explain significance. WP:TVINTL discourages this for TV shows, and MOS:FILM#Release seems to discourage it as well. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• The user has also made an unapproved redirect of an article: . - Areaseven (talk) 07:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

User:C.Syde65 Loves Me!

Hi

Can we block as impersonation of User:C.Syde65. Amortias (T)(C) 22:38, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I left the {subst:ANI-notice} template on their talk page. Weegeerunner (talk) 22:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

User has been blocked indefinitely. Nakon 22:42, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Is an obvious sock of someone but I cant find the SPI to add it to the list of. Amortias (T)(C) 22:46, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

A list of the other sock-puppets belonging to this user can be found here. They've been causing trouble for me and a couple of other editors of the Sims wiki. Since then, they have tracked me and another Sims wiki editor down here on the wikipedia. They have also tracked me down at ModtheSims, and various other wikis that I contribute to, including my test wiki.

I've already had to report this user to wikia staff. I can block this user and their sock-puppets on my test wiki, and I can add them to my ignore list at ModtheSims. But other than that, this is a situation which I am unable to deal with alone. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 00:41, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

You should file a sockpuppet report and get a checkuser involved, so that the underlying IP can be blocked. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I've already reported him to wikia staff, and his IP addresses have been blocked across the wikia network, along with some of his accounts on wikia. However I don't know whether this affects his ability to edit in the wikipedia network. Also from what I've seen, 1) he probably edits from more than one IP address, 2) his IP addresses are dynamic, or 3) wikia staff have not disabled his IP range to the point where he is unable to edit while logged in. Who knows? I guess we'll just have to block each account of his that comes along. It would be tedious, but according to a message I got from wikia staff several months before, it does eventually help. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:00, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive872#Persistent harassment, sockpuppetry, and vandalism by long-term disruptive editor and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive872#Persistent harassment, sockpuppetry, and vandalism by long-term disruptive editor - Again. This user has been at it for months, if not years. --I am k6ka _{See what I have done} 03:49, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Looking at these links, I see I am the third user to suggest filing at WP:SPI so as to get a check-user involved. Perhaps there's the possibility of blocking the underlying IPs or doing a range block. We can place blocks that prevent anyone from creating new accounts from a given IP or IP range. Blocks placed at Wikia have no effect on this wiki. -- Diannaa (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, but I unfortunately don't feel quite ready to file a report at WP:SPI myself. I thought that blocks placed at wikia would have had no effect on this wiki. But it would be good to have a range block here, since what they're doing here is more annoying than what they're doing on wikia. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

@C.Syde65: Blocks on Wikia have zero effect here on Misplaced Pages because Misplaced Pages and Wikia are two different websites hosted on different servers.

As for the SPI, I may file one myself when I have time. --I am k6ka _{See what I have done} 12:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I realized that, although I hadn't really given this fact some real thought until now. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 02:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The user's IP range was blocked from editing the Sims wiki. I repeated this action on my test wiki. It seems that they're still able to edit from their IP addresses while logged in, which creates the impression that they're managing to get around the range blocks. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 10:10, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

That's because it's Wikia, not Misplaced Pages. Remember that they're two different websites. --I am k6ka _{See what I have done} 13:01, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I know. What I was thinking was that maybe if Misplaced Pages blocked his IP range, then it might stop him from disrupting us here. What he's doing here is far more annoying than what he does on wikia. Because it's obvious that if he tries to disrupt me on my test wiki, I'll just block him, and if he tries to disrupt anyone on the Sims wiki, one of the admins will block him. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 19:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

An IP range block doesn't stop people from using proxies on a different range to bypass the block (proxies are, by the way, strictly forbidden here). Secondly, I'm not sure if you truly understand the severity of the situation, as this user is being more than just annoying. A number of their revisions had to be hidden due to legal issues. I did send an email to legalwikimedia.org but got no response.

Oh, and can you please stop mentioning your test wiki? Like, nobody cares what you do on your own little corner of the web. What matters more is what happens here. --I am k6ka _{See what I have done} 22:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• @K6ka:, @C.Syde65:, Found this: K6kaAndC.Syde65AreSexy. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I do understand the severity of the issue. My biggest fear was if they were somehow able to trick wikia staff into believing that we were impersonating them, not the other way around. The account "C.Syde55" was globally disabled because I asked wikia staff to do it. Think what might have happened if the imposter had beaten me to it.

The user is being more than just annoying, but as long as nothing they do works, and if the really bad things they do get removed from the public eye, it can't be fatal, can it? I wasn't fully aware that IP proxies were forbidden here. I know I shouldn't mention my test wiki, but I felt I needed another reference. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 07:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Sam Harris (author)

(Previous AN/I thread: )

Could an admin please visit this article and determine if temporary page protection is necessary while a BLP dispute is resolved? One editor appears intent on repeatedly re-inserting contentious, negative "opinions" about the living person simply because those opinions were found in blogs, op-eds, books, etc. Over the objections of several other editors, the editor keeps reverting any attempt to bring the content into BLP and NPOV policy compliance. When the problematic content was moved to the Talk page for discussion and dispute resolution, he re-inserted it again without addressing concerns. The subject of the article is a vocal critic of religion, most recently of Islam, so it doesn't help that this is a current event hot topic. This one editor has spent the past week inserting various forms of insinuated racism, bigotry, warmongering, Islamophobia, Jewish tribalism, academic dishonesty, right-wing ideologue fascism, etc., with no regard for impartiality or balance.

Disclosure: I'm one of the involved editors at the article. While there have been no technical violations of 3RR, there is still edit warring, and the ratio of productive discourse—to—reverting is not encouraging. And now there appears to be personal sniping. This matter is also related to the above open issue, but since no one reads the top half of this noticeboard anymore, I thought I would renew attention by requesting a single specific action: temporary page protection. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I also want to point out that concerns have been made about that user's behavior just this morning in that previous thread. Despite being warned just a few days ago the personal attacks and defamatory comments have yet to cease and an administrator hasn't responded. You can view those concerns in the update section.LM2000 (talk) 23:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

• Bulleted list item

I've noted this WP:FORUMSHOPPING thread and have no qualms about indicating that it is yet another iteration in a continual string of disruptive, POV pushing WP:GAMING in relation to the content dispute described by Xenophrenic.

This is increasingly looking like something I'm going to have to bring up with ArbCom.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, it's kind of ridiculous for you to accuse Xenophrenic of WP:FORUMSHOPPING when you brought the current debate on the Sam Harris article to this noticeboard first, don't you think? With regard to Harris article, I see one editor pushing a biased POV and one editor being disruptive by working against consensus and making spurious claims of bad behavior by other editors. That editor is you, Ubikwit. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Jweiss11:} Don't you think one thread is enough?

You and I are obviously on the opposite sides of the content dispute, and you and Xenophrenic have been editing that page since long before I arrived (not the case for LM2000). Accordingly, you and Xenophrenic might be partially responsible for the promotional bloat of primary sourced text in the article, but you are certainly responsible for excluding critical material while including all sort of vacuous praise from like-minded atheists, etc. That is an inverse form of POV pushing, because the end result is that you and Xenophrenic and other people trying to exclude reliably sourced criticism in violation of NPOV are skewing the article. Remember, it was you that deleted a Political section including RS material related to characterizations of "right-wing neoconservative policies" and "the national security state" and replaced that section with a "Social and economic politics". I have already indicated to you in a very civil manner that you have a competence issue with respect to the article, yet you persist in trying to push your ill-informed POV at me while conflating religion and politics, disparaging academic sources and professors of history and theology, etc. I'm through talking to you per WP:DENY. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 07:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, I've made a lot of edits to the Sam Harris article, but they have be mostly of the maintenance, copy-editing variety. I'm not responsible for any of the bloat in the article, nor am I really reasonable for writing much, if any, of the substantive content.

Xenophrenic made it clear that he has created this thread in an attempt to renew attention to the issue since it may have been buried here. Whatever the case, you are evading the hypocrisy of your WP:FORUMSHOPPING accusation. Your claim about my competence is ridiculous. I am very well-versed with Sam Harris's work and its criticism. I understand that some people like to treat religion and politics as if they are two entirely different animals, but it is a fact the religions in questions here are political and that the politics of religious people are informed by their religious beliefs. More generally, just because different departments on a college campus tend to reside in different buildings, that doesn't mean the things they study are actually disparate. And we're not beholden to honor that academic silo-ing in every section of every article on Misplaced Pages, particularly when the subject is a person who has made criticisms of religions that focus in large part on the real-world, political impact of religion. I deleted the "Political" section because it was a poorly-defined, redundant concoction that you designed to serve as repository for an unbalanced assault on Harris that includes defamatory commentary. The consensus of involved editors at the article seems to agree with my assessment and action.

If anyone lacks competence, it's you with regard to your poor understanding and application of various Misplaced Pages principles, e.g when you claimed that my talk page commentary constituted original research—an utter contradiction in terms—or just now with your FORUMSHOPPING accusation, of which you either lack the sensibility to understand or the intellectual honesty to admit your hypocrisy. Jweiss11 (talk) 08:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I had NAC'd this because a request for arbitration was opened, but since that seems to be headed toward being declined (5 decline votes at this time), I've re-opened it for further community comment. BMK (talk) 01:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I've withdrawn the request for arbitration. Is there any way to combine this thread with the related thread that preceded it?
--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 02:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need to cut and paste that very long thread here. Links should be sufficient. BMK (talk) 04:25, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed another disturbing comment by Xenophreic that I missed

Misplaced Pages policy will not allow you to advance your "Harris hates Islam because he's Jewish" narrative. in that manner. By way of example: suppose I found a source on a blog who claimed Ubikwit traffics in child pornography, and I placed that information into a BLP about Ubikwit

That kind of analogy is simply unacceptable. It is uncivil and represents a battlefield mentality. The fact that there was no BLP violation in the quote had already been determined on the relevant BLP/N thread, and the assertion that I was advancing a narrative of "Harris hates Islam because he's Jewish" is a personal attack.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 12:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Continued addition of uncited ethnicity categories by User:Eruditescholar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Eruditescholar has added many ethnicity-based categories to articles without sources to prove their ethncity. When challenged on these actions, the user claims that the BLP in question's birthplace, national origin and/or names are proof of the person's ethnic origin. When I brought this issue to the talk page of WP:BLP, there was a consensus that we should not add ethnicity articles to pages without proof of that specific persons ethnicity. Despite this consensus, the user continues to edit in the same manner, which is in violation of BLP, IMO.--TM 11:59, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

@TM. This is getting wierd regarding this being an issue with you. First and foremost, I advise you to be careful with what you attribute to other editors and refrain from unwarranted accusations. I have worked with many editors and they don't have any issue with my citations on ethnicity. Ethnicity is diverse and defined by the people it belongs to in several ways across nationalities all over the world. I have made it clear to you how ethnicity is defined in Nigeria especially regarding the predominant ethnic groups: Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo in the discussion at talk page of WP:BLP To re-iterate: Names are an important cultural aspect of ethnic groups in Nigeria and only people from the various ethnic groups use the language of ethnicity for their names. This might look alien to you if you are not African or more specifically, Nigerian. In Nigeria alone, there are over 200 ethnic groups. In many cases of these BLPs they have multiple names from their ethnic group. I usually only cite one of them (either the first or middle name for both sexes and the surname for males). In cases where there are no name sources, I usually find other references to cite their ethnicity. This is usually coupled with the fact that they originate from the cultural region belonging to their ethnic groups. Originating from Nigeria alone gives one approximately a 1/4 chance of having a Yoruba, Igbo or Hausa ethnicity or descent. Almost all the BLPs you previously removed ethnic categories from where undid and recategorized with explanations to clarify and where feasible with citations. Is this not enough to prove that my categorizations are valid? Verifiability is used to establish veracity of articles on Misplaced Pages and I have not only categorized Nigeria-related articles but others like Americans, Black British, English e.t.c. where feasible with citations. You happen to be the only editor that has been engaged in an edit-war with me and I will recommend that you stick to your American articles and those you have full or sufficient knowledge/information of and keep away from Nigeria-related articles. Eruditescholar (talk) 13:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a continuing problem on Misplaced Pages. I remember encountering the same issue over and over, years ago. I take it you've read WP:CATEGRS, Eruditescholar? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

• Eruditescholar, changes to BLPs need to be supported with sources. Looking at the BLPN discussion you linked, it appears you've been told this already. Tiderolls 16:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
• Eruditescholar, I will respectfully add that your statement indicates you are adding these articles to categories based onOriginal Research, and not on reliable sources that clearly indicate that the person in question is in a particular ethnic category. If so, please reconsider your approach. JoeSperrazza (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
• I would also suggest for Eruditescholar to create an article about what they eloquently wrote above. If there are sufficient reliable sources on the subject. It will be a valuable contribution. Besides, having this article and collecting enough references, there will be a possibility compromise, kinda "the third name from the end Mbumbu indicates his possible Mzongo ethnicity" (often seen in historical documents: "The surname Hernández indicates on his possible Spanish descent"). -M.Altenmann >t 16:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
• Cordless Larry and JoeSperrazza:Thanks for your advice. Misplaced Pages's criteria for ethnic categorization might not be easily applicable to ethnic groups in Africa, because most ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages are outside Africa and their ways of identification are different. However as an African (or Nigerian), I think our way of identification should be considered. What I am implying is that I try as much as possible to use reliable sources in lieu of Original Research based on the above ethnic definition which is peculiar to ethnic groups in Nigeria. I have not objected to comments made by editors in talk page of WP:BLP and will try to adhere to it. However what I have a problem with is TM's continual assertion that I persist in uncited ethnic categorizations which I deem untrue. Eruditescholar (talk) 17:17, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

  See also, special pleading. 76.109.38.129 (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

  Eruditescholar, please consider what people above are saying: it has nothing to do with how these ethnic groups are categorized in Nigeria, or anywhere else. It as to do with providing a reference for what you write in an article. If you write in an article "John Doe is of Igbo ethnicity" then you need to provide a direct reference to a reliable source which ALSO states, in similarly unambiguous terms "John Doe is of Igbo ethnicity". No one is arguing over what it means to be Igbo; what we are telling you is that the burden at Misplaced Pages to say anything is that it is written somewhere else first, and that you can show people where it is already written. That's the first, last, and only issue here. There is no inherent problem with noting someone's self-identified ethnicity, insofar as it is a relevant aspect of that person's biography. However, before you can note it, you need to provide a reference to support it. That's all. --Jayron32 03:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm familiar with WP:CATEGRS but I'm not familiar with ethnic groups in Africa. For the articles and categories I've worked with, WP requires sources that the article subject self-identifies with any ethnicity or religion in order to be categorized as such. This topic is frequently in dispute especially for notable people as different ethnic groups want it noted that a celebrity is part Irish or Croatian or Jewish when the attribution is made through fan blogs, the subject's name or WP:OR, not WP:RS. While most Western editors are likely ignorant of the large variety of ethnic groups in Africa, I think the same standard applies. If the subject is notable, it shouldn't be difficult to find a RS that states their ethnic identification. Liz 17:49, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Eruditescholar removed this comment from the thread. I think it is highly inappropriate for the user to remove any comments from this thread, given that it is about the user's inappropriate edits.--TM 02:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@TM, There you go again! I was surprised by your accusation that I removed a contributor's comment. After looking at this discussion page's edit history, I observed that it was replaced with my comment which might have been akin to an edit conflict, otherwise it was unintentional. Nothwithstanding, the contributor's comment is still on this discussion and has not been removed, so your accusation is unwarranted. Eruditescholar (talk) 02:45, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I've warned User:Eruditescholar on his talk page, and at my suggestion he has removed the ethnic categorization at the Ike Nwankwo article. This thread can probably be closed, given that the editor is now aware he may be blocked if he adds any more poorly-sourced ethnic categories to BLP articles. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I need help: A user is harassing me.

There is a user that continuously harasses me. This user has been giving me a very hard time recently (I refuse to give the username publicly; I will discuss with the helper who offers themselves to help me), and I request this user to be blocked or properly given a strict warning for several reasons:

• This user has been putting up campaigns against me to multiple people / makes biased statements. This user tries to campaign that I should be blocked for having a 'battleground' personality and putting up criticism that seems wrong (to him).
• This user has been stalking my account (I don't know if it is 24/7, but whatever I do, this user almost all the time interferes against me either by talking negatively about me among other people or revert edits with poor reasonings).
• As a follow-up, this user also does disruptive reasoning (I presume just towards me). Everything I do, this user tries to undo it, and wants to do so.
• This user has been reverting my warnings (literally, he wants me not to touch his talk page at all) on his talk page not to harass me in a very offensive manner. I told him not to do disruptive editing twice and not to stalk me, and this user reverted both, saying that he wasn't going to talk to me. Even though this user states that he has right to his talk page, he is ignoring my warnings and continuously acting against it. It is also the reason of why I am not notifying this user that I'm on an attempt to report him.
• As a follow-up, however, this user still believes he has the right to come into portals that I'm related in, and as usual, put up campaigns against me.
• This user was talks about me without notifying me in any way, and I find that as an unwanted attention, and therefore, harassment.

It would be great if anyone helped me settle this user into either properly warning this user or block him. I am mortified, and I need help here. HanSangYoon (talk) 09:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Related unresolved thread: #I am here to report a Sock Puppet Account ―Mandruss ☎ 09:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

To facilitate this, the editor he's accusing of "harassing him" is me. In the thread Mandruss is linking to, I wondered if this kind of thing crosses the line into a "personal attack". I would appreciate an admin looking in to this, as I feel this editor has crossed lines here, and I would like to see this resolved. But it's getting to the point that several editors now don't dare edit or revert anything this editor has done, lest he haul them up either before WP:SPI (which he's already done with three long-standing editors), or WP:ANI (as he's trying to do to me here). --IJBall (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I have only requested an investigation; nothing wrong there, Mandruss. HanSangYoon (talk) 08:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User:HanSangYoon, you have removed another user's comments and I would suggest that you restore them. This was either malicious or more evidence of WP:CIR, neither looks good for you. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

So, what should I do here? – Should I restore my comment? Or should I leave it deleted as potential "evidence"? TIA... --IJBall (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, do you not notice that the 'harassing' one I'm referring here is IJBall? One of my reasons of why I request this user to be blocked is because he is stalking me; should I leave his spam-like comment around as usual? This user likes to ignore and delete my warnings, and so I can't just get rid of his spam message. That's just plain ridiculous on my side, Mandruss. I do not want this user to stalk around of what I'm doing. But why am I being ignored of my help request? HanSangYoon (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If I was more active and had more time, I'd block HanSangYoon myself. Honestly, if this hasn't stopped by tomorrow I might be persuaded to dust off the ole block button. What needs to happen next is one of the editors in conflict with him needs to start a subsection here requesting a block or some other administrative action for HanSangYoon. Keep it simple, state the problem clearly, and provide diffs clearly showing the competency issues and edit warring. AniMate 14:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand your logic of why you would want to block me. After all, I'm reporting a stalker, and you're simply saying that I should be blocked for no reason...pity. HanSangYoon (talk) 02:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Request for WP:BOOMERANG sanction

I have clearly made the case for the OP's WP:Incompetence in two threads including an earlier one on this page. The user is showing very poor editorial judgment, failing to adequately defend his actions, and being extremely obstinate about the whole thing. I see multiple editors strongly opposed to his actions and none supporting. Failure to respond to such opposition is disruptive by definition. I have not been around for any of the supposed edit warring, but the preceding alone should warrant some boomerang action, and I feel it's a day or two overdue. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconded. Admins can feel free to look into the OP's "charges". But his recent campaigns against other editors (e.g. here, and at WP:SPI) is troubling, to say the least, quite aside from the WP:CIR issues that Mandruss references. --IJBall (talk) 17:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thirded. I tried to extend the olive branch and help HSY fix up with some of his other projects that were unprofessional like Template:Busan Metro Line 1. However he still will not compromise and insistent that his bland pictures replace quality pictures that other editors have worked hard to make. One minute he is begging for help on something the next he is stubbornly challenging seven other editors that are all opposed to his changes.Terramorphous (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Opposed. I was simply making edits when IJBall and Terramorphus came in to undo my edits without a proper explanation. I tried discussing with IJBall, but he was simply under denial and deleted my comments immediately (even warnings not to harass me at here and here), while Terramorphus acts without discussing fully. I tried to conversate with these users, but they don't seem to even consider it importantly. IJBall's campaigning against me is a type of bullying (as it harasses me), and as an administrator quoted, "IJBall showed a high level of incivility in this case. He accused HanSangYoon of incompetence numerous time both here and at the ANI. That is not a good practice at all. Competence is required, but it is not inherited. IJBall, if you find out that the user is acting wrongly, try to help him, to teach him, and not to accuse him of being ignorant or dishonest. Acting like that only makes the situation worse." ( -Vanjagenije; evidence is here). IJBall has also been previously criticized by another user that he "shabbily treated" me (evidence is located in the same page as given).

With Terramorphus, the undoing of metro stations became a pain in the neck as I requested for him not to revert but to discuss, and he simply ignored my advice and went on to continue reverting the edits (which goes against the Misplaced Pages policy of necessary revertings and explaining (at least). Terramorphus not only refused to discuss, but also sent a challenge of getting me into trouble as a replacement response. These two editors has been very obnoxious to my contributions, and rather I'd like to point these two users out that they're the one that's causing me trouble. On top of that, I request an IBAN on IJBall (instead of a block, actually). HanSangYoon (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@HanSangYoon: You have not adequately explained how, in an article about a train station, a photo of a sign can be better for the infobox than a photo of the station. Infoboxes should illustrate the article's subject to the best extent possible with available images, and these are not articles about signs. I don't even need to point to a guideline that says this; it should be intuitively obvious. It should not be necessary to "discuss" this concept one article at a time.

You have consistently disregarded the attempts of more experienced editors to provide advice and guidance. An editor with about 900 edits should be capable of deferring to the judgment of multiple editors with thousands of edits each. You are not. Most experienced editors are willing to forgive the mistakes of newer editors and to provide assistance. When the newer editor repeatedly and defiantly refuses to accept the guidance, the desire to help them ends.

You have removed another user's comments on this page, citing as justification the fact that they removed your comments from their user talk page. This shows that you do not understand talk page policies at Misplaced Pages.

All of this, combined, points to WP:IDHT, failure to respect WP:Consensus, and WP:Incompetence. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I may not be a hardcore Misplaced Pages article editor as you said, but I do am a mature human with lots of common sense; seeing bunch of users trying to reason that they're more experienced in editing article truly makes me facepalm, first of all. Even if I was an experienced editor (which I'm not), I'm sure my usual personality of being strict on format is not gonna change, and I hope you're not trying to question my personality here. I have seen Misplaced Pages for more than a decade, and as a 'experienced Misplaced Pages user' (as in using it), I know what I want for articles that I edit. I'm pretty sure you're tired of my blunt and fixed attitude, but that is just me, after all. If there's someone who could properly cooperate with me, then I'm willing to fix my attitude FOR that cooperator. Take the otherwise, then it won't go well with me. That's that. No battleground attitude, no issue.

And let's see about the platform views that you're trying to get rid of. London Undergound, NYC Subway, Seoul Jihachul and Tokyo Chikatetsu. I am pretty much a huge fan of subways. The common thing of these four huge metro system is that in their encyclopedia pages, they show their station mark as the title image. You have the red-blue roundel for London. Seoul and Tokyo takes their modern style of placards, too, from rounders to hangar signs. New York? They take the track view image WITH the placard (black square). I like the formats of putting in placards because it shows UNITY. It shows standardization of the metro system, and boy have I repeated this multiple times. Of course, there will be people not agreeing with me, but then what am I? I have a special connection with subways, and my strong opinion is nullified? It makes absolutely no sense to me that my own contributions for the better should be taken down by some another user who doesn't seem to have a legitimate reason to back their actions up.

That's why I was so fired up with SecondaryWaltz and IJBall in the first place. I criticized Secondarywaltz because of the strange follow-up that occurred with the revertion, and with suspicion, I tried to put up a report on him, and because I did the right thing for myself, I was bombarded with negative users, finding it beyond ridiculous of how misunderstanding these users are.

And not trying to be disrespectful, but you seem more and more biased as I explain more and more of my position in my own issue. You may be a professional editor, and I respect that. But what I do not respect is the wrongful position you are currently standing at. I've shown you the best reasons of why the Misplaced Pages policy and my contributions cope with each other above. But why is it ignored? I've proved myself, and sometimes sure, they reply well. But at the end, they either just ignore the discussion or say something totally unrelated, which rises my impatience with these users. The two users that I criticized above are examples (and I also explained it well, too). I believe they were doing disruptive editing, and so I tried to show them of what I thought of their actions that outraged me. And I guess that's what you see as a disruptive editing...on my side.

You can look into talk pages or records of me hotly discussing about these placard sign images, and my reason for why the images should be up (if gathered) is abundant. Therefore, my position on the issue that escalated in the beginning is the same: Platform images should be up there. Doesn't matter if it contributes little, cause it still contributes something. Deleting that isn't the policy in Misplaced Pages (as I explained), and on my side, the one who should be 'getting the point' is the one who cannot fully continue the discussion I tried to resonate multiple times. HanSangYoon (talk) 07:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Your arguments are full of holes, and they continue to show a closed-minded ignorance of Misplaced Pages editing concepts (see WP:Other stuff exists for example), but I am through wasting my time arguing with you. If I hadn't seen that thread at the Help Desk a week ago, I wouldn't be involved in this or even aware of it. This noticeboard seems decidedly uninterested in this, and I've learned to avoid being a lone crusader on things like this; it just doesn't pay. I'm going to pretend I didn't see the Help Desk thread and let the rest of the community deal with you as they see fit. Best of luck. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Medeis hatting and deletions on the ref desks

Dear all, I am requesting that User:Medeis be banned from removing or hatting anything on the reference desks. I have problems with her other contributions, but this is by far the biggest, and the only one that really warrants a solution. (Note: I believe Medeis has previously said she is female, hence the pronoun "she"). Her removals and hattings are objectionable to many people, and take up a lot of time on the ref desk talk page. Every time I read the talk page, there is another long thread about something she has removed. This costs an inordinate amount of time, and always results in a deluge of words, and a lot of tension. The latest example is this:

• First deletion:
• Second deletion:

Furthermore, the edit summary for the first deletion said: "I am not a holocaust denialist, nor a believer in conspiracy theory: {{WP:DENY]] this is not he first trolling by noopolo)". This contains the accusation of "trolling", which is bizarre and unsubstantiated in this case. The question by Noopolo strikes me as incredibly legitimate, and very interesting. What's more, it was answered well, with posts that I found highly informative. I have for a long time wanted to know the nitty gritty of these things, because I trust that holocaust deniers are wrong, but I think it is better to be armed with facts, and whilst I can consult the articles, ref desk posts give me a pithy initial summary, for the sake of a quick overview.

Another problem here is that Medeis claims to be following Bold, Revert, Discuss, as witness this diff: . I do not see anything resembling BRD here - Medeis has been bold twice in quick succession, not at all the correct procedure.

The thread on the ref desk talk page is becoming very long. Furthermore, all these problems seem to cause enormous tension among editors, but they always seem to start with Medeis. Some people agree with her deletions, so I say, if so, let them take the lead. Consequently, because of the enormous amount of time constantly consumed by Medeis, I request that this user be indefinitely banned from hatting or removing posts on the ref desks. This is the only sanction I request, and it would not stop her from requesting hatting or deletion on the ref desk talk page, or contributing to such discussions.

Note this previous attempt to deal with Medeis, just one among many:

Thanks all, IBE (talk) 09:21, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

When did you last participate in a ref desk talk page discussion on these issues? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

This has been an ongoing problem on the reference desks for a long time. μηδείς/Medeis deletes or hats questions or discussions that they decide are inappropriate, even in the face of overwhelming consensus that the material in question should be allowed. I do not understand why this has been allowed to go on for so long.

There is zero downside to topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from any modification of another person's comments. The reference desks are full of trustworthy people who can and will deal with those comments that really need to be removed or hatted, such as asking for legal/medical advice. We simply do not need μηδείς/Medeis as the self-appointed sheriff of the reference desks, constantly making contentious closures. The word "loose cannon" comes to mind. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

There has been ongoing debate for many years about when or if to hat/delete, and in fact there are ongoing discussions about it right now at the ref desk talk page - which is what that talk page is for, don'cha know. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:03, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe further research is needed. Forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:56, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

I support the proposal to deal with Medeis in this manner. What we have here is an editor who pops up with an assertion that some IP editor is some well-known miscreant - and without evidence or discussion either deletes, hat or harasses that person. Medeis is trying to take the role of an Admin, without going through the necessary hoops to gain that status and without understanding the mechanisms by which sock-puppetry is dealt with. I'm quite sure that this is well-intentioned, but very often (at least half the time), the community consensus is that Medeis is incorrect or has overreacted. That causes yet another huge debate about her actions to break out on the talk page, typically resulting in widespread condemnation of Medeis' actions. This is evidence (IMHO) that this is a case of WP:DISRUPT that should be dealt with accordingly.

However, (as I've frequently stated) the underlying issue is that the reference desks do not have a simple, comprehensible, set of guidelines as to what to do with problematic posts from possibly dubious editors. So it's hard for the community to say "Medeis: You broke rule 27(b), please don't do that again." - or "Admins: This is the 23rd time Medeis broke rule 27(b), please apply a topic ban." Our inability to get the community to get into a goal-directed discussion about a decent set of guidelines, despite the evident relish in fighting each action on a case-by-case basis, is puzzling and extremely frustrating to me.

So while I definitely support dealing with Medeis, she is just the outlier in a spectrum of confusing responses to inappropriate questions at WP:RD. If we had those clear guidelines, then an admin would have taken action a long time ago.

SteveBaker (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, all very pertinent, Steve, but you have said before that the problem is that people disagree on the interpretation anyway. (I hope I'm not misinterpreting you, but somewhere you said to Medeis, when she advanced a similar-sounding idea, that you disagree with almost all her hattings.) The point is that people always claim to be following certain rules (as interpreted by them), so I don't see how to get a single set of effective rules in place. We would need a competent authority to carry them out, and the devil here is in the detail - deciding what counts as this or that problem (per your flowchart on the ref desk talk page) is (I believe) a big part of the problem. If you want to revise those guidelines and include the concept of some kind of chain of command for more drastic actions (a bit like the suggestion of letting only admins hat or delete) I'd be interested. At the same time, let's remember it's complicated in its own right, and should be discussed as a separate proposal. This one is only about one editor, and you have summed up my reasons very neatly, better than I could have put it. IBE (talk) 05:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

All of this needs to be handled on the ref desk talk page. Dragging it here is nothing more than grandstanding. There are a few different areas of conflict:

1. There is a rule against giving professional advice. Medeis errs on the (sometimes extreme) side of caution. If there is disagreement about it, that's what the talk page is for. Where it gets complicated is the involvement of users who range from not going to the extreme, all the way to disagreeing with the rule itself.
2. Random trolling is another negotiable matter for the talk page. There's a risk of "feeding the troll", but generally there's consensus on obvious trolling.
3. Banned users are not allowed to edit. Again, there are persistent arguments which seek to ignore that rule. But again, that's negotiable. The complication comes with editors who are less experienced in dealing with banned users and are unwillingly to show good faith toward those who know the M.O. of these users. And then it gets messy and annoying, as all the back-and-forth does nothing except feed the banned troll.

You can talk about rules and guidelines and decision trees every day and twice on Sunday, but none of that fixes the core problems I've listed above. If you're going ban Medeis for executing the "Bold" part of BRD, then you should also ban the users who insist on the "R" part as well. The solution would seem to be to decide on when to bring a hat or deletion to the talk page. This does not belong on ANI. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Our guidelines say we don't engage in debate or speculation, but the first two diffs provided above start with "I am not a holocaust denialist but..." whereas me saying their are certain editors who show up only to criticize me and a few other editors (and I am not talking about the person with whom I am engaged in an IBAN) isn't even a matter of dispute, it's an observation by me. The problem in general is that we come to conclusions on the talk page that trolling should just be deleted without comment, because a talk page discussion draws more attention. Then, when that opinion is followed, someone complains there was no discussion and the cycle goes around and around.

As for myself "acting like an admin", I am not the only person who follows the guidelines about removing material by known block-evading trolls, etc., and I follow consensus of the desk when an edit I make is reversed. See, for example, this thread on people with Autism and Down's Syndrome where I suggest half way down the thread that the person may be trolling us, only at the end for him to admit it and mock us, before I then closed the thread.

The ref desk needs objective rules that apply equally to everyone. Some of those rules already govern all of main space, no BLP violations, No professional advice, comments by banned users may be removed on sight. Other issues are judgment calls and I do not reverse them when consensus is against me at the talk page. If one of them is to be that only an admin can hat or delete a discussion, that's fine with me. μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - Per Baseball Bugs. I can begin imagine (but will not make) a good-faith (though not necessarily good) case for 1rr on the refdesks, but Medeis usually does removals or hatting that needs to be done. Sometimes overly cautious? Yes. Disruptive? That's certainly an "it takes two to tango" deal here. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I cannot see your point about "it takes two to tango". A large number of people have expressed their dislike of Medeis' hatting. You give no examples about what constitutes being merely "overly cautious". I said in my OP that it is one editor consuming a huge amount of time from excessive hatting/ removal. The case I gave is a classic example. There is nothing resembling excessive caution there. It is just an absurd reaction to the question, containing as it does an unsubstantiated accusation of trolling by Medeis against Noopolo. Perhaps there is a history there, but nothing was offered as an explanation, other than the characterisation of "trolling". I see no "tangoing" and have never had any desire to engage Medeis in confrontation. Neither have a number of editors who have used the legitimate processes to deal with another editor. My claim about wasted time by many editors amounts to exactly that complaint, that we desperately don't want to tango, but we don't want the nuisance caused by a single outlier either. If you believe in the hattings, I said that it would be fine for others to take the lead. This doesn't look like an attempt to tango, I feel. IBE (talk) 08:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If BRD is followed, Medeis hats or removes, it is reverted, Medeis might choose to discuss, no one is forced to discuss, and the hat/removal fails for lack of consensus. No one's time is "wasted" unless they choose to "waste" it, beyond the time it takes to perform one undo (about 15 seconds including the editsum). Medeis says that she follows and respects this system and I haven't seen anyone bring proof that she does not. Sorry but your argument is full of holes. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I gave the example in the original post. Two removals, in quick succession, and a direct claim to be following BRD. But I might have messed something up, so please quietly alert me to a blunt error, if I have made one. IBE (talk) 14:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I wondered whether I should say this, but I decided it was so obvious as to be unnecessary. We don't drag people to ANI for one or two (or even three over a period of time) lapses of judgment. Show me a pattern of misbehavior, please, where BRD has been violated in hatting and removal. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If you think this is only a few instances, spend some time scanning the ref desk talk page archives for the past five years. Or just google /reference desk talk medeis delete/. You can also or restrict to inurl:en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk, etc. E.g. here are a few hits, and I especially like this one, where Medeis goes off in ALL CAPS about how a question is an "invitation to debate", when in fact it is a question about specific citable historical facts, asked by a well-established and productive editor. Here's a talk thread about bad hatting and deleting by Medeis from 2013 . This archive has lots of Medeis not acting like a pleasant team player I have better things to do than google trawl for every time Medeis has caused disruption based on aggressive policing, but if you're genuinely curious, WP and google have all the history you need to get the example behavior straight from the source. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've been under the mistaken impression that BRD has been in place at the refdesks. Taking in all of this discussion, it appears that's not the case. You can't fault Medeis for the fact that there have been no clear rules; that is the fault of the community. I'm proposing the use of BRD and Medeis has made a very clear statement below (02:59, 23 Feb) that she will abide by BRD if it is accepted. If the rules are clear and Medeis breaks her own promise to follow them, THEN you have an ANI case. Not until then. That should be all that is necessary to end this discussion now. And Medeis is spot on when she conditions her promise on application of the BRD rule to everyone. If you bring her back to ANI for BRD violations and she can show spotty or selective enforcement, the case should be thrown out. That is the only way this can work. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Its use is inconsistent. Also, BRD is not the way to deal with a banned user. As has been said numerous times on the ref desk talk page, by various users, removal of questions by banned users should be as low-key as possible. The newer users need to show good faith in the editor doing the removal, rather than arguing about it as too often happens, thus feeding the banned user. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Pro-tip When someone says "I am not a <thing>" and then starts to argue about said thing, they are probably not being 100% honest. While Medeis is cautioned not to edit war or ignore consensus I think the whole ref desk area is a bit permissive of trolling. Oppose topic ban and 1RR restriction, our rules against edit warring can be used to keep this in check and frankly the idea of cutting these thing off early should be considered per WP:DENY. Chillum 18:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support 1RR mentioned by Ian.thomson. It seems this is something regularly brought up at the refdesk talk page and has made its way to ANI at least a couple times in the past. Each time -- of those I've seen and/or were part of -- there seems to be a great deal of support for the idea that Medeis should exercise more caution in hatting and/or that his/her aggressive hatting is disruptive. Unfortunately, as far as I've seen anyway, Medeis is persistent in defending his/her actions, so I'm not sure what good more cautioning could possibly do. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that Medeis dedicates a lot of time to the refdesk and hats appropriately a lot of the time, so a 1RR seems like a good solution to prevent the more disruptive instances of hat-warring without preventing hatting in the first place. — Rhododendrites \\ 19:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I do not support 1rr, I only mentioned that as the farthest I could see this going. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose all Support 1RR - As Rhododendrites states, Medeis does a lot of good work and 1RR seems to be a good solution, a second revert in this type of situation would be questionable at best anyway. Further discussion has changed my mind. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

It can very easily be questionable both ways, however. If we are going to go with 1rr, I'd at least suggest that it's under the stipulation that it must be more than one user who reverts Medeis, not the same user over and over. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support 1RR She treats any topic she find distasteful as a troll and hats or deletes it. Imagine if we did that with Misplaced Pages articles. StuRat (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

This is simply untrue StuRat and here is an example where SemanticMantis hatted you because he didn't "like" your comments on tax policy. I

Others have already provided numerous examples on the Ref Desk talk page, for years now. StuRat (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - I think at most a stern warning from someone scary with an admin hat is warranted here. Maybe also a trout or possibly even a rather smelly mackerel (The Mark of the Mackerel), though not a whale. Anyway, first and last warning. On a side note, for the purposes of keeping things from being chaotic, can we !vote (or is this a vote?) on one thing at a time? I'm not even sure if we're saying 1RR for Medeis or for the whole refdesk (the latter ought not to be discussed here). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 3 Adar 5775 19:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The community already has a version of 1rr, in that I don't rehat discussions when my hatting is questioned and there's no consensus for it on the talk page. No evidence has been provided otherwise, which is what would have justified bring this here now. But what about cases like this, where my long attempt at engaging with a question was twice hatted, and I removed the hats 12. Would that be a violation of 1rr? Would any actually banned user like Light Current and Bowei Huang or the IP from Toronto who eventually went to my talk page asking me if, as a negress, my intelligence was substandard be allowed to restore a personal attack I deleted? Would I have to come running to ANI every time something like this occurred to get it rectified? And why are we talking about this sanction out of the blue if there's no evidence above of a current problem? As for being consistent in "defending my actions", even if that were true, it amounts to saying I'm guilty because I defend myself. μηδείς (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• I would Support Medeis' proposal that only admins are allowed to hat or delete RD threads. We have several admins who are active on the reference desks, so there wouldn't be a problem with lack of coverage. However, this rule would need to be strictly enforced, even for the most egregious violations - is the community prepared to apply such a restriction? If so, let's make it official. Tevildo (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose admin-only closure - Yes, we have admin coverage, but it's still kind of like letting admins be the only persons who can remove vandalism from articles. I could begin to consider the idea that admins are the only users who can delete threads that have received responses, and that admins are the only persons who can re-hat de-hatted threads -- but I'm still not suggesting that. Quite frankly, there are a number of refdesk users who are bad at spotting trolls and love giving them attention (hell, I'll even admit that I'm not entirely innocent there). Restricting others from dealing with trolls goes against WP:DENY, WP:BOLD, and WP:IAR. We don't need rules saying you can or cannot remove a thread if that rule is going to enable trolls and punish those who remove trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:41, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose admin only closure, support disallowing Medeis to revert when someone reopens her closures. That seems to be the reasonable solution. We should not create situations where admins are allowed to do things that normal users technically can also, but then only allow admins to do. If and when Medeis closes a thread in good faith, if it is reopened Medeis should not close it a second time. That stops all edit wars, and would really remove the locus of the problem. Medeis closes threads in good faith; the issue is the repeated closure of those threads after others disagree. If consensus supports Medeis, others can reclose a reopened thread. If consensus does not support her, she should not be reclosing them. --Jayron32 00:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I would support Jayron32's proposal if "someone" were changed to "anyone". In default of Medeis' threshold for hatting being voluntarily aligned with that of the community (which, IMO, is unlikely to happen), we need to find a method of minimizing its disruptive effects. Would it be considered too inequitable to have a simple "Medeis is not permitted to hat or delete anything" rule? If, as I suspect, it would, allowing any user to revert her misjudgements in this area seems like an acceptable solution, but only if it's understood by all concerned that such reversions are not open to subsequent discussion, and, of course, that it doesn't apply to hatting or deletion by users other than Medeis. SteveBaker's proposal for an unambiguous set of rules might be theoretically superior, but generating those rules isn't going to be easy. Tevildo (talk) 01:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Mandruss and I just edit conflicted, so other than emphasizing that the same rules should apply to everybody (assuming disruption is disruption no matter who does it, Tevildo), I will let his statement below stand for mine. μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Thankyou, Tevildo, for a very fair comment. The reason for singling out Medeis was given in my first post here, announcing the ANI. It is because of constant misapplication of the rules, and overzealous hatting/removal, costing enormous time. No other editor costs us this much time. Hence I claim that there is nothing inequitable going on. It would be the same for anyone who acted this way over a long time. It is also a minimalist suggestion, designed to counter only the specific problem. IBE (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconding this rationale. Exceptional behavior merits exceptional treatment. Minimal changes are best at this point. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support BRD at the refdesks - where a hat/removal is the B and the hatter/remover is the one responsible for starting D if they feel it is important enough to pursue. If the D feeds some trolls, so be it; there is no perfect solution. If Medeis already follows this system, causing no more "disruption" than one revert per problem thread, then this ANI complaint would appear to be without merit. I think a clause against thread double jeopardy would be necessary; if a hat/removal attempt failed, that thread would have to be immune from further hat/removal by the same user, regardless of what happened in it later. Again, not perfect, but better than unlimited bites at the apple. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose all as not having any sufficient necessity. unhatting takes but a moment if one is concerned, and there is no strong argument for any punishment for the behaviour which annoys some editors. And I am tired of some of the same folks seeking the same remedies on a monthly basis - all it is, is drama for the sake of drama at that point. (Drama gratia dramatis) Collect (talk) 03:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I see no "drama for the sake of drama". The "same remedies"? No, I think different ones. Can you substantiate this? If I knew about a previous attempt at this remedy, I would not have filed this post. My suggested remedy is a minimalist one, and I have never heard of it before. You are welcome to be tired of us, but there are many of us, and it is because of outlier behaviour, which does not seem in keeping with the need for consensus. Unhatting only takes a moment, but people will rehat, and that causes a nuisance, as I said above. Some of us find the hatting more than vexing, because we can sense the willpower behind it, a feeling that is borne out by later developments, including rehatting and insistent, illogical debate on the talk page. The thread about holocaust deniers, which I linked, is a classic example, including accusations against people for being IPs, and claiming that the thread consists of nothing but debate. It is these later developments, and the sense of a lot of willpower by a single editor, against community consensus, that is causing us extreme annoyance. IBE (talk) 08:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose admin only closure. There are plenty of legit closures by other editors, like duplicate Q's. Just because one editor doesn't know when to close a Q doesn't mean all should be banned from doing so. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I haven't delved into the whole history of thread-hatting and removing in recent months, but the removal of this particular question strikes me as completely appropriate. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Its appropriateness was for BRD to decide. I'm defending Medeis in this thread, but I don't defend that particular case because it violated BRD. For now, BRD/consensus is the best available solution to this problem, and it needs to be observed. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Support preventing Medeis from deleting/hatting posts on the ref desks. Asking nicely, trouting, etc, has proved ineffective, though I do wish that would be all that was necessary. Most every time Medeis does hats/delets, at least one other regular user disagrees, and a bunch of arguing ensues (sometimes it is me who argues about Medeis' shutting down threads). I see this as very disruptive, and often times troll feeding, despite the intent. We have plenty of other users who make deletions/removals that are not contentious. Medeis should let them handle it. Since asking hasn't worked in the past, I suspect sanctions will be necessary to stop this pattern of disruption. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Topic ban for Medeis, Medeis often has good and useful responses. Often times not, but that behavior can just be ignored, while hatting/deleting disrupts the desks for everybody. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You do realize that we are only discussing topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from hatting or deleting other people's comments while allowing her to do everything else she normally does, right? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Support Admin-only closure - mostly just because I honestly think deletion causes far more strife than any trolls. Trolls hate AGF, good referenced answers, and being ignored. Deleting is none of those. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I very nearly ignored this, but I'm alarmed at some discussion above that sounds like a back-door plan to introduce some sort of policy, or unneeded admin oversight, at the Refdesk. The only thing wrong on the Refdesks is when people try to play admin. Dumb, incomprehensible, or troll questions can easily be ignored; they're just "roughage" and no real problem to anyone. Either you waste your time answering or you don't. Is it bad for Medeis to play admin? Yes. But not any worse than when anyone else does. Whoever comes in with big plans for reform this, ban that, enforce this, block that ... they do nothing but harm. So make your decision about Medeis personally as you see fit, but please don't mess with the Refdesk. Wnt (talk) 21:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Wnt hit the nail on the head. There is zero downside to topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from deleting or collapsing other people's comments -- there are at least a dozen well-respected users who are doing that without the controversial decisions -- but all sorts of potential downside to changing how the refdesks work just to deal with one disruptive editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

So, Guy, what you are suggesting is that rather than BRD, I should bring every request for closure to an admin board? What exactly are you pointing to as a problem here? Wnt's opinion that the medical industry (see his comments on testosterone) is a monopolistic scam are well known. Where have I acted according to our medical disclaimer, then refused to accept consensus when my action has been reverted? Where is any evidence for this entire thread so that uninvolved admins can observe it? μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe what some people are suggesting is that they'd prefer if you didn't care at all about (micro-)managing the desks, and limited your contributions to the reference desks to answers and questions, but not hatting and removing (and, to a lesser degree, not adding mid-thread comments on a question's appropriateness or a querent's sincerity). The reason some editors are suggesting this lies in the number of your interferences that have irritated (and sometimes been reverted by) a number of regular editors. The fact, that you don't mind adding opinionated comment when you so see fit has added to some contributors' irritation (or resignation). I find it hard to understand how you couldh't have noticed this by now. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:01, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

If you're saying some ref desk regulars would rather not enforce the rules against professional advice, for example, then you're right. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Wait, are you telling me that editors working at the Reference Desk are okay with giving out professional advice, even when they have no professional credentials? This really opens up problems for Misplaced Pages and does no service to readers who come there with questions. There should be no shoot-from-the-hip answers to medical, legal, business or career questions that come up. Liz 02:21, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

No, this isn't the issue. Most of us are happy with the current guidelines at WP:RD/G/M. The problem is with Medeis' hatting and deletion of "trolling", as she perceives it: her standards of what constitutes "trolling" do not match those of the majority of Reference Desk regulars. If Medeis would restrict her actions to medical and legal advice as defined in the guidelines, the problem would be greatly reduced (if not entirely eliminated). Tevildo (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not that simple. There are also editors who are perfectly willing to allow banned users to edit. And when an experienced editor recognizes such a user's M.O., you get some editors exhibiting bad faith toward the editor who recognizes it, and start talking about starting an SPI, which is a fool's errand and only feeds the banned editor. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Well, yes, Tevildo, this is exactly the issue raised above. Liz, we have various editors who argue regularly that a question is "interesting" and that if it had been worded in some other way it wouldn't violate our ban on giving professional advice. We recently had a discussion Snow Rise started at the reference desk talk page about whether licensed veterinary advice was a violation of the Misplaced Pages:General_disclaimer even though the opinion that veterinary advice is forbidden has been consensus since at least 2007.

We have three issues here. (1) A total lack of evidence that I have recently or materially violated BRD, or am acting in bad faith. (2) A significant number of contributers here who think that questioners who can be "ignored" (although they never are) who never disobey policy, only regulars following policy that is a problem, and (3) a "content" dispute over posts which certain people would rather settle by limiting my editting rather than having a set of rules that apply equally to ("at least a dozen well-respected users") all.

The solutions are twofold: an objective set of criteria, and equal application of those criteria to all, including those who ask at the desks, and those who work there. μηδείς (talk) 04:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

"Re: "So, Guy, what you are suggesting is that rather than BRD, I should bring every request for closure to an admin board?", No, I am suggesting that you get out of the business of deciding what stays and what goes. You are really, really bad at it, and there are at least a dozen people who are good at it who should be allowed to do -- well -- what you are doing -- badly. You would still be allowed to call for something to be deleted or hatted. You would still be allowed to answer or ignore questions. You just wouldn't be allowed to do the one thing that you suck at. How many different editors have to take you to ANI before you get the point? Just stop, now, voluntarily, and save us all another million words of debating. --07:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. In mainspace, WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS, when followed and enforced, do a pretty good job of protecting articles from editors whose edits do not improve the encyclopedia. Can they be gamed? Absolutely. Anything can be gamed (and whatever Medeis's shortcomings, I don't see deliberately gaming the system as one of them, in any case). We don't selectively exclude editors who agree to observe BRD, no matter how bad their judgment. Medeis has agreed to observe BRD provided it applies to all, a perfectly reasonable expectation and condition.

What is the absolute worst case result of this proposal? What is its maximum downside? Well, zero discussion is required to simply allow a disputed edit to fail for lack of consensus. Medeis can open a discussion, but no one is forced to participate in it. If she then hatted or removed every thread on every refdesk, and if every such action were inappropriate, the time cost would be less than 15 minutes per day, the time it takes to undo approximately 56 edits (8 threads times 7 desks). That's your worst case, and one that we would obviously never approach. We have already spent more time in this discussion than we would likely spend reverting Medeis in a month.

We need to take a collective deep breath, stand back, and give existing processes a chance to work as they were designed to work. As far as I can tell this has not been tried consistently and evenly at the refdesks; correct me if I'm wrong. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Why do you keep citing the disclaimer, at strongest, the disclaimer should be taken to say "We aren't claiming this is professional advice". A disclaimer would be something like "Enter at your own risk", which would mean, you assume risk by entering; it would not mean, "People inside will prevent you from entering, and are obliged to do so", or whatever. I'm not even saying your general point was/is wrong about the issue you are referencing, but please stop citing a disclaimer as if they were rules - or, if that is how Misplaced Pages really means them, let's rename the page, because that's not what a disclaimer generally means.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction on μηδείς. Boldly hatting is fine and there is really no evidence of disuption or edit warring. Relegating a simple task such as hatting to "no big deal" admins is ludicrous. Close/ --DHeyward (talk) 07:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Reluctant support for TBAN or one-revert limit for Medeis, with regard to hatting discussions and removing the edits of another contributor - As one of the RefDesk contributors who has argued most stringently for a cautious and restrictive approach to the professional advice issue, I appreciate Medeis' general concerns and I have no doubt that she takes these actions in good faith and, in each case, in manner that she believes to be consistent with policy. That being said, this ongoing and highly disruptive situation demonstrates that she lacks to the ability to respect the general consensus of her fellow contributors with regard to these circumstances. It's all well and good to say that, in any given scenario, she seems to be acting within the spectrum of good-faith, if toward the extremes, but we long ago passed the point where she should have started to recognize the situations in which she was adopting a WP:SNOW position. Even if she is absolutely certain her interpretation of policy is in the right, and that she's acting in the best interests of the project (and never had cause to doubt that she is acting from this frame of mind), she seems to lack the ability to see (or at least accept) when she is about to take an action in these contexts which is in essence identical the last dozen which the consensus of her fellow editors found to be excessive/in error. The fact that she cannot see that there is nothing to be gained by trying to force her standard approach to these situation, aside from a great deal of wasted energy on the part of numerous contributors, is problematic in the extreme.

Again, I share many of Medeis' priorities here, but if my actions were the subject of a half-dozen separate talk page discussions, wherein they were generally being regarded as excessive by a large number of other editors, I'd be moderating my approach some, especially if said actions were in the vein of altering other contributor's comments, which is a behaviour that editors are by and large meant to be avoiding outside of great necessity. It's true that the standards in question here are open to some degree of interpretation, but that does not in itself stop Medeis from recognizing when her perspectives are out of sync with the significant majority of her fellow editors and adjusting her approach accordingly. The fact that she has gotten considerable feed/push-back on this particular issue, via numerous discussions and is, if anything, pushing the boundaries in the same area with increasing abandon, suggests that she will not stop on this issue unless she receives an unambiguous mandate, unfortunately.

Thoroughly oppose (policy-inconsistent) suggestion of admin-only closures First off, since no one else has pointed this out, I think it needs to be recognized that we, the small collection of editors in this discussion, do not have the authority to implement such a ruling to begin with. The standards which govern when it is acceptable to close down a discussion or to alter the contents of another editor's contributions are the subject of broad community consensus and we are not allowed to create idiosyncratic approaches to these situations which limit or modify those standards in a given space without soliciting broad community discussion to reach a new consensus and alter the relevant policies accordingly (regardless of whether said change in policy applies to all areas of the project broadly or just specific scenarios/spaces). Deciding to apply a unique standard to our area of operation is not allowable and is a notion that ArbCom has already had disabuse several WikiProjects of in recent time; going down that road here is not only a non-starter, but likely to amp the drama up another few notches. Nowhere on the project, that I'm aware of, have these actions been regarded as the sole purview of administrators.

But even putting aside the fact that this procedurally not allowed, I don't see the utility either; the vast, vast, vast majority of our contributors at the Ref Desks who have occasionally hatted a problematic discussion do so only on rare occasion and without creating a ruckus. I dare say a majority of these actions are found to be in the best interests of the project and our guidelines and are not reversed. Medeis' suggestion of "fine, but if I can't do it, then the standard should be shared by all and no one should be able to do it" does not hold water to me, as this discussion is meant to consider whether her behaviours in this regard are problematic, not whether such actions are ever appropriate from editors without admin privileges; policy and the community consensus clearly say that they sometimes are, but that these actions should be approached with intense caution and reservation. For the rest of our contributors who, by and large, observe that restraint, these actions are not problematic and I don't see the point of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here (again, if we were even empowered to in this discussion, which we are not). Snow 08:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

List of Presidents of Croatia

Hi. I am involved with this article and the ongoing dispute in which User:Director has pursued a curious position for years now, whereby the list article includes various offices in various states in its scope, with little regard for verifiability. I told him that back in 2011, to no avail. He has continued to advocate this position, with no improvement with regard to WP:V, and recently engaged in an edit war with User:Timbouctou over it. User:Tuvixer also chimed in with a few reverts of their own. Once they finally got off the edit-war-wagon, there was still no resolution to the issue - the article remains in the state where its basic premises in the lead section are not supported by any references, and the page history is littered with insults. This has gone well beyond a simple content dispute and into an unambiguous violation of numerous policies.

On the Talk page, when I recently tried to say something, I was summarily needled by User:FkpCascais as if I was condoning this whole process by not intervening in an issue where my intervention would be seen as a trivial violation of WP:INVOLVED. This whole exercise in ridiculousness really needs to end. I'm hoping another admin can intervene instead of me and dole out some bans and blocks that are apparently necessary, because I'm not seeing that any further discussion is going to be preventing further blatant violation of Misplaced Pages policies, behavioral or content.

For example, I'd give:

• a month-long block to both Director and Timbouctou for the egregious and persistent violations of the edit warring policy, coupled with WP:OWN, WP:POINT, WP:DE, WP:CIVIL, ... violations
• a ban to Director on the topic of the Croatian head of state, broadly construed. Not sure about the duration, because it's been 3-4 years since this started - I don't think it's likely that a short ban would accomplish anything substantial, but it does seem fair to at least try something other than indefinite.
• a final warning to Tuvixer with regard to WP:EW
• a final warning to FkpCascais with regard to WP:DEPE

And that's just for what I saw they did at this particular article. I noticed there have been some disputes on other articles, but I haven't had the time or stomach to analyze it all. There could well be grounds for even stricter sanctions. TIA. --Joy (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The citation that Socialist Republic of Croatia and Republic of Croatia are the same state and the same country can be easily found in the Preamble of the Constitution of the Republic of Croatia. I was going to find all citations necessary and put them on Talk page of that article, but now I see that we have come to a time where it is implied that fear should be the guide in editing certain articles. I don't know if that is what Misplaced Pages was intended, but I will still find the citations, and with your permission User:Joy, put them on talk. Not today, but during next week. Now rule by fiat and martial law is in place on those articles, which is sad and dangerous. That is all from me. I hope no user will be banned, of course if they stop edit warring. Maybe to protected the article for a month, so we can all resolve this on the Talk page of the article, what do you say? I think that is the best solution, because banning users will just make it worse and allow one user to edit the whole article without any consensus. So I think the article should be protected for a month. --Tuvixer (talk) 12:51, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The edit history on the 17th Feb makes intersting reading. WP:25RR anyone? Lugnuts 13:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Why not indeff blocks all-round, while we're at it? Yeah, you can tell old Joy here is WP:INVOLVED..

Timbouctou and I don't get along, that's an established fact (we had an interaction ban). And the knee-jerk edit-war really is inexcusable, I don't pretend otherwise (in fact I said so myself earlier in a pretty amiable chat with Timbouctou). But the thing is - this report is about the article, not me or Timbouctou: there is no edit-war over there now for days, and we are discussing the issue amicably, with several editors contributing their opinions - and its not looking like it'll turn out the way Joy wants. Claims of WP:V violation are opposed on the talkpage as unfounded, and the proposed changes to the article do not have consensus. Last I looked, three users (myself included) currently oppose any changes - this is not a clear-cut issue, at the very least. And as Tuvixer in part points out - this is a political, left/right dispute at its core.

What this really looks like - especially the topic ban - is a means for Joy to circumvent user consensus, and get his way content-wise. The topic ban is especially suspect: I do NOT consider myself the owner of the article nor do I in any way adopt such a stance - but I hope I am allowed to point out that I did pretty much write the thing up (alongside many other officeholder list articles). Now I'm to be topic-banned essentially on the basis of one bout of edit-warring? And that's justified and fair? Nah. That's Joy removing me from the picture over there (ironically while citing DEPE).

So in summation: yeah, I screwed up - big time. I should not have edit-warred, its a silly, stupid, childish thing I did, and I'm ashamed of it - even more so for being around here on Wiki for so long. I blew my top. I apologize, throw myself at the mercy of the court, and plead temporary insanity :).
What I do not like, however, is this one incident of my reverting Timbouctou's recent changes (against consensus mind you!) being blown out of all realistic proportions, turned into some kind of "pattern" - so that it can be used to permanently get me out of Joy's hair. -- Director (talk) 14:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Sanctions are supposed to be preventive, not punitive. Seems kind of pointless blocking anyone for edit-warring five days after the incident. Not to get into the idiocy of the meritum here, the whole thing started with Direktor flipping out and provoking an edit-war with the exact purpose of drawing attention from admins to use it to his advantage in a content dispute. The "consensus" he talks about regards his wholly original view of the chronology of officeholders on one of the articles he passionately owns (there are dozens of others, but who cares - certainly not admins, that's for sure). The issue has been raised before, several other editors tried to reason with him over the past several years, and this (uninterrupted edit-warring) seems to be the only way of making him participate in a discussion (I think all my previous blocks were because of him on articles he owned and continues to own). He simply doesn't hear anything, instantly throws hissy fits and throws insults right and left against whoever is "against consensus", or as he calls it, the "longstanding version of the article". In short, he is not here to edit, he is here to censor other people's edits. And has been doing that for years. Tuvixer is a relatively new addition to the project, an editor with WP:COMPETENCE issues who does not hide the fact he is here with a political axe to grind, and who learned all he knows about Misplaced Pages from following Direktor's lead (currently his obsession involves edit-warring over the description of Ivo Josipović's profession and similar bullshit). I guess that's the thing with trolls - to fight one, you have to become one, but if you don't fight them, they just multiply. And I'm just too old for this shit, including the bureaucracy which is required to fight vandals who only need a mouse click or two to cause damage to articles. Where was this promptness and eagerness to help when I was dragged to ANI three times over the past month or so by two puppets on an unrelated article? There are veritable psychopaths up in here but getting them blocked would require like 300 hours of my time compiling evidence, posting diffs, reporting to 17 different noticeboards and enduring 900 pages of rants and essays, explaining the gist of Balkan politics to admins who earned their mops via exemplar and thorough editing of articles on Pokemon. So excuse me if I decide not to follow this thread any more. I have better things to do with my time. Direktor certainly does not. 15:37, 22 February 2015 (UTC)Timbouctou (talk)

Yes, I flipped out - you remained perfectly cool. In every sense of the word. Of course :). And even though I basically wrote the entire thing, I'm not there to "edit", only harass and censor. Only a WP:OWN-addled, "flipped-out" madman, or some "troll" or other, could possibly oppose that small article being split into three or four non-notable fragments... -- Director (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone? --Joy (talk) 16:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Beat me to it. I could start a thread about an admin not being competent that would get looked at pretty quickly, with plenty of mutal back-slapping... Lugnuts 18:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Angelo6397 move-jacked the Ron Henley page

• Angelo6397 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ron Henley (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Hi, the page about the chess grandmaster and businessman Ron Henley is well established on wikipedia, and was created back in 2005. Recently Angelo6397 (talk · contribs) hijacked this page by moving it to Ron Henley (chess), an edit which he marked as "minor", then editing the resulting redirect with details about a Filipino hip hop musician. Several chess-related articles link to Ron Henley, so I moved the new article to Ron Henley (musician) and tried to move Ron Henley (chess) back to Ron Henley, but this was not allowed by the software. As an interim measure I set up Ron Henley to redirect to Ron Henley (chess).

I need some admin help to move the Ron Henley (chess) article back to its rightful place at Ron Henley. Also, please explain to Angelo6397 that hijacking articles in this manner is absolutely unacceptable. MaxBrowne (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

BTW, a WP:BOLD move of an article is not in and of itself a problem. It only becomes a problem if an editor makes a lot of Bold moves that are bad choices, contested, and have to be moved back, or if the moving editor starts move-warring, or moves it again against a talk page consensus. Then it's worthwhile dealing with the disruption that's being caused -- but a single Bold move is not a matter of concern, however annoying it may be at the moment. BMK (talk) 20:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

@MaxBrowne: I'd suggest you place {{db-move|1=Ron Henley (chess)|2=response to this ]}} if this is noncontroversial. (I think it should be restored too, but others might not agree.) OR, we could keep it as it is, and add {{redirect|Ron Henley|the musician|Ron Henley (musician)}}. Either way seems fine to me. -- Orduin 17:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The other Ron Henley is a Filipino rapper. It doesn't appear to me that either is the most obvious target for "Ron Henley", so I've converted Ron Henley from a redirect to Ron Henley (chess) into a dab page. This, of course, can be undone as the result of a RM discussion BMK (talk) 17:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

That works. -- Orduin 17:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the talk page of Ron Henley is directed to Talk:Ron Henley (chess) and I'm not sure how to break that link. Liz 18:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Someone seems to have fixed that problem. BMK (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not happy with Ron Henley pointing to a DAB page because several wikipedia pages were already pointing to the page for the chess player. Moving the page to Ron Henley (chess) should never have been done. MaxBrowne (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, that's a valid complaint. The number of links is not great, but it's more than a handful, so rather than sit here and change them by hand, I've moved the current disambiguation page (Ron Henley) to Ron Henley (disambiguation) and changed Ron Henley to a redirect to Ron Henley (temp) which redirects to Ron Henley (chess). The bot should come by fairly quickly and fix the double redirect, so that all links to Ron Henley will go to Ron Henley (chess). Then the dab page can go back to the main page and the linking problem will have been fixed. BMK (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The bots usually pick up on the double redirects pretty quickly anyway, but I've left a request at AvicBot to do this one. BMK (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The bot that handled it did not do what I've normally seen done -- that is, it just changed that article title levels without fixing the double redirects at the level below -- therefore, I did the changes manually myself. I've also undone anothher editor's changes of the disambiguator "chess" to "chess player" because it fucked up everything I had just done. BMK (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The musician seems non-notable or barely notable, and the article about him is badly written. I'd go back to the chess player on the main title, with the musician as "see also" or AfD. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps he is non-notable, but that gets taken care of with one of the deletion processes. In any case his non-notability wasn't immediately apparent to me -- he's got a major label release -- so as long as he's got an article (however poorly written), this seems like the best arrangement. If his article goes away, that's a different story. BMK (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:NMUSIC calls for more than one such release. I agree that the musician article shouldn't be deleted without normal process. I'm saying that between the two articles, it looks to me based on the musician's marginal notability that the chess player is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and therefore the musician article (if it's not deleted) should get a hatnote rather than a dab. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 21:21, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for that mistake, I thought it was non-controversial. As I searched in Google, there are 515,000 results when I search Ron Henley as a rapper, and as a chess grandmaster it only results about 50,000. So I think that's a large margin. I'm sorry if I'm wrong and for the mess I made. Anybody can revert my actions freely. Thanks! -Angelo6397 (talk) 02:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

It's contested, but not necessarily wrong. That remains to be seen. BMK (talk) 08:44, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't also think so that it is eligible for RfD. He has almost 100 million YouTube channel views, he also has 3 major album releases and including 1 EP that is popular here in the Philippines. -Angelo6397 (talk) 11:25, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how the procedure works formally but the next step is to decide (through concensus) what Ron Henley should point to. Internet hits aren't everything, published books and videos must count for something too. We need to decide, should it point to one article or the other, or should it point to a DAB? BTW there's another musician called Ron Henley, he was a member of the Liverpool Five. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Where would a conversation like this happen, MaxBrowne? Liz 15:45, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

The easiest thing would to have it on one of the two "Ron Henley" article talk pages, and put a link to it on the other article talk page. Also, put neutral pointers to the discussion on the talk pages of all Wikiprojects listed on both article talk pages, and list it on the contested moves section of WP:RM. I think that would cover it. BMK (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Redirect and disambiguation muddle

A network of redirects and disambiguation pages has become very muddled and I fear it will take someone with admin tools and a clear understanding of the system to fix it. It's arisen because of Bolterc's desire that AAP should redirect to Aam Aadmi Party (that's a fairly new Indian political party which has recently won a landslide victory in the Delhi state elections). As a result of several changes in the last couple of hours, we now have:

• AAP disambiguation a disambiguation page which lists about 30 articles
• AAP (disambiguation), a redirect to AAP disambiguation
• AAP a redirect to Aam Admi Party
• Aaaap a redirect to Aam Admi Party
• AAAAP (disambiguation) a redirect to AAP
• Aap (disambiguation) a redirect to AAP.

Can anyone set all this to function normally? NebY (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

AAAAP (disambiguation) tagged as R3, that should shift one of them. I'll take a look at the others. Amortias (T)(C) 21:20, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Aaaap also tagged as R3 4 to go. Amortias (T)(C) 21:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I've removed a few of the tagged pages, please let me know if any other administrative action needs to be taken with regards to the articles. Nakon 21:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Bolterc has been a disruptive nuisance from the outset, has been blocked previously and has had both the caste and general India/Pakistan discretionary sanctions warnings. They don't seem to be learning a thing. - Sitush (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I spotted this through CSD. I've moved the dab page back to AAP, and have protected it for the next week. I'll do some more tidying up of the various redirects. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, my apologies. I can't see the sanctions notices, although I could have sworn I did only 15 minutes ago. They've been a nuisance nontheless. - Sitush (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I think Bolterc has made one constructive edit. But they're determined that Aam Admi Party should begin by saying that "AAP redirects here" (because their opponents' article says "BJP redirects here") and not say "for the Pakistani political party, see Aam Aadmi Party (Pakistan)" (because that "maligns" the Aam Aadmi Party), so they keep breaking things. NebY (talk) 22:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I just checked the Election Commission of Pakistan website. The party in discussion here is a namesake party which was not even given a symbol to contest elections. http://ecp.gov.pk/Misc/Parties-with-Symbols.pdf Bolterc (talk) 06:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If you don't think the Pakistani party is notable then the correct course of action is to take that article to WP:AFD. As long as it exists, the disambiguations that existed before you got involved would appear to be correct. It is no good complaining that "Modi Bhakts" ("Modi admirers", a reference to the main BJP opposition party at the moment) are manipulating the articles. - Sitush (talk) 10:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You have now AfD'd the thing but have done so incorrectly. I've tried to fix the mistakes but I too seem to be hitting problems (see this attempt in the log entry.) I've become far too reliant on WP:Twinkle but hopefully someone can sort it out. - Sitush (talk) 14:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think I have fixed the AfD nom now. I note that after yet more disruptive editing from Bolterc, Aam Aadmi Party has now been full-protected by RegentsPark. - Sitush (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I've protected it for the very short term and would prefer not to see a longer term protection. Bolterc, I suggest changing your approach, your current one is not working and will end up with a block. And that is never helpful. --regentspark (comment) 17:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You are nonsense. You are the one contributing to caste articles and the person who added the hatnote is a veg supporter obviously caste worshiping people. You guys are bjp supporters whether you admit it or not. Bolterc (talk) 12:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not a BJP supporter. I am not even Indian and have never voted in the country where I do reside. - Sitush (talk) 12:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Ya seems Legit. This is like Dummy Wells claiming i have no idea or nothing to do with illegal use of Copyrighted images on Quora. Bolterc (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean by that comment. Can you please explain why, after Mike Peel kiboshed your efforts to create AAP (disambiguation), you have today created Aap (disambiguation)? - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Nice try, You want to get me blocked. Try things. Bolterc (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Aap (disambiguation) was deleted on 20 February 2015 by Bkonrad. You recreated it and it was deleted again on 22 February by Nakon. You have now recreated it yet again. Why is that page so important to you that you would jeopardise your ability to press for the deletion of Aam Aadmi Party (Pakistan)? NebY (talk) 18:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

PM of India is a Criminal accusing AAP as naxalites, but people voted against the corrupt criminal. In a similar way some of the editors are trying to put AAP as a party of Pakistan Origin. On Misplaced Pages the hatnote has made the visitors of Aam Aadmi Party page misdirected to the pak fake party page. Check my comment on https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aam_Aadmi_Party_(Pakistan) Bolterc (talk) 11:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Ararat arev socking again

Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Ararat arev Example

166.137.246.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) --NeilN 00:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

And 166.137.247.235 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) too. A. Parrot (talk) 00:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

And 166.137.246.23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I note there have been a couple of range blocks imposed. This guy is playing games with us as he makes his socking obvious, and seems to have an unlimited supply of IP addresses. Dougweller (talk) 13:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Akafeatfausty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are obvious, newly created sock puppets, specifically vandalizing articles I edited.

The nature of their edits is exemplified by nonsensical and bogus edit summaries, such as "Visible anchor, mentioned an impt point with source but tangible" and "Grammar check" when just removing spaces and a line break and "incorporating some changes from Kristina451" when he has incorporated nothing but has simply reverted my edit, and "Fix verb tense" when re-adding the same falsehood to the article that I pointed out on his talk page before.

PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty are making identical edits, like replacing the term "high-frequency trading/HFT" with "predatory". Akafeatfausty also uses bogus edit summaries, like claiming to make an edit according to the "Last version as per talk page" when there is nothing even remotely about that on the article's talk page. All within hours. Kristina451 (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The socks have now simultaneously restored their vandalism. PortugueseManofPeace from 03:10 to 03:12 UTC, and Akafeatfausty from 03:15 to 03:18 UTC. Please block indef and roll back their edits. Thanks. Kristina451 (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I met Akafeatfausty (MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) on #wikipedia-en-help discussing an incident on WP:COIN#Kristina451_and_High-frequency_trading regarding Kristina451. Kristina451 has been mass-undoing revisions from:

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

David Adam Kess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

190.10.199.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

166.137.246.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

128.103.224.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

under all kinds of nonsensical reasons claiming a lack of references, while he/she seems very happy to approve any kind of references or lack thereof that smear the reputation of a specific group of traders. We noticed that Kristina451 claims to be a "professional trader", which probably indicates a personal reason for his/her strong POV and marginalizing behavior against this particular group. We agreed to insert a few true statements into these articles to see if Kristina451 repeats this pattern of flagrantly undoing revisions so long as he/she could keep often false content that was accusative towards high-frequency traders.

For example, in Quote stuffing, Akafeatfausty made the correct call that Citadel LLC is a hedge fund and according to Bloomberg , Citadel Securities LLC is a brokerage firm and investment bank, not a high-frequency trading firm as Kristina451 puts it. Kristina451 reverted Akafeatfausty's changes without even bothering to truth-check those statements just because in that sentence, Citadel Securities was being accused of market manipulation and this was another chance for Kristina451 to smear the reputation of high-frequency trading.

I would say this experiment was a success. I think Kristina451 should be spending his/her doggedness, reference-checking skills and wit towards the betterment of other Misplaced Pages articles, and not waste so much of his/her time on such a juvenile way of smearing the reputation of his/her personal competitors.

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 03:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• I would like to clarify that David Adam Kess and 190.10.199.189 are unrelated to this incident. MelissaHebert is obviously another sock related to the socks PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty. Kristina451 (talk) 04:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

As I mentioned, Akafeatfausty is MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from what I can tell, maybe she didn't want to be known by her real name? You can check our IP addresses if you like. We divided the labor so I was monitoring Flash Boys, Virtu Financial, High-frequency trading and Front running because those were longer and I was more familiar with editing while Akafeatfeausty volunteered to do the rest. There's no overlap between our edits because they're on completely separate articles, why I would need to sockpuppet on completely separate articles? I could have handled all the articles by myself if I wanted to. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you know how to use other IPs and therefore mention it can be checked. But it does not have to, the behavioral evidence is crystal clear. Kristina451 (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You know what behavioral evidence is crystal clear? You obsessively policing every single sentence in every single article that mentions high-frequency traders. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 07:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

focusing on a particular topic or aspect is not an issue in and of itself. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The socks were signed up in short succession: MelissaHebert on 21 February 2015 at 09:18 UTC, PortugueseManofPeace on 21 February 2015 at 23:01 UTC, Akafeatfausty on 22 February 2015 at 22:56 UTC. The first edit was made by MelissaHebert. A rather interesting first edit for a 'new user', a COI filing against me without notifying me about it. The ploy obviously was to try to provoke me with the other two socks to somehow 'show' that the COI filing was justified.

I think it is time to end this. While this ANI was open, almost certainly the same person responsible for the three socks above created another sock that tried to impersonate David Adam Kess on my talk page and signed with David Adam Kess, who I still think is not involved in this incident. Thanks. Kristina451 (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've caught you red-handed trying to undo all these factually correct edits, such as the one on Citadel Securities LLC, out of your personal spite and conflict of interest. Now you're trying to divert attention from your own wrongdoing with this conspiracy theory about sockpuppeting. I suspect you're the one who created this Shazam puta character yourself to try and falsify a case against me. I'm not surprised:

Upon closer look into your history,

1. Your first edits were of promotional content to an IEX article, which appears to support your agenda against high-frequency traders. This was flagged by MrBill3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

2. Your next edits were of promotional content, which was flagged by Sophie.grothendieck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for WP:COI and harassment, which led to WP:functionaries intervening to remove your violating harassment.

3. Then you went on a long hiatus and came back to revenge report Sophie.grothendieck on WP:COIN although it was months since this user last made an edit.

4. Then you went on a mass-undoing spree against David Adam Kess, whose edits seem valid, just because he didn't share your anti-high frequency trading position.

You have a history of dragging everyone into your childish disputes, each time ending with intervention from administrators and functionaries.

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• You now made it apparent that (you) the puppet master is Sophie.grothendieck. This also explains your untrue claims that you have a history of making, for example here on my talk page. You also created dozens of other socks (I maintain a list of them), most of which are stale. I think the 'whole thing' needs to go to SPI. There is however something that can be handled right away. Kristina451 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion to take some (simple) action

Please block these obvious, recently active sock puppets per WP:DUCK and the comments above:

MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Akafeatfausty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Shazam puta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This would finally allow me to move on with article work. For obvious reasons, I am reluctant to get into content disputes with socks here at ANI. If any established editor wants to know why the sock edits should be undone, please feel free to ask any question. Thank you, and I hope this will get resolved soon. Kristina451 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I am evading a block but not a sock for which I was blocked Self Reported

I got blocked for starting a SPI and Accused of Being a Sock, Whose Sock???

I started an SPI about an article I came across that was around since 2006 and deleted and salted after a few attempts by User:RGloucester and some new accounts like User:Jobrot which is a SPA that states they are "noob" but then first edits in December 2014 in a discussion to delete the article using very sophisticated alphabet soup. Clearly not a noob and the edit analyzer shows a remarkable number of edits with the above sock master even though the sock only has a few hundred edits of which most show up in the edit analyzer with RGlocester who avows to be a Marxist on their talk page. The subject cultural Marxism in an modern American use does not say nice things about Marxists or cultural Marxists. It was nominated for deletion and theatrically argued for deletion by RGlocester and then a new SPA shows up arguing for the same thing out of no where. I do acknowledge it may be a meat puppet recruited by the sock master but a meat puppet is to be treated the same as a sock per WP:SOCK. I was accused of pretending to be new by Chillum but he fabricated that and accused me of being a sock and then blocked block me based on his ridiculous claims. I previously argued against User Talk:John Foxe for COI and his previous use of a sock. That will demonstrate that I always use an IP to edit and not what Chillum falsely accused me of. And John Foxe edits on behalf of Bob Jones University a very politically conservative fundamentalist school. That demonstrates I go after both extremes of the political spectrum. Cultural Marxism in an American sense reflects a conservative use of the philosophy. It was a valid article with 9 years of existence that was salted for Marxist ideological reasons. It is the worst case of WP:PUSH I have ever seen and a complete failure by involved admins. One reasonably would question if they had COI or in my opinion acted foolishly. If you got the time look into the salted SPI about RGloucester and check out the case I made. It demonstrates meat puppetry at the best and a sock puppetry in the worst. The edit analyzer and Jobrots contributions are very clear. It needs to see the light of day and not be immediately salted without examination. Again a foolish or malicious move by an editor. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 10:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by "I am evading a block". This is an important point to be clear on. Sam Walton (talk) 10:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My cellular IP changes all the time and I never know when as it used by millions. But I went back to check on a SPI I started and found that the last SPI had been deleted quickly. I went to see what happened by looking up a contentious article that existed for 9 years and was deleted based on ideological push. I noticed my notice of an SPI to other editors involved in a lengthy and heated deletion discussion (names I got from the deletion record) were deleted by User:Chillum. I also noticed he falsely accused me of being a sock for starting a SPI. So here I am squawking about it and evading his block, although unknowingly when I first started editing today. I turned myself in, but showed the reason I was blocked as well, as Chillum has attempted to bury that. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 11:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

172.56.6.142, what specific action are you seeking here? Liz 12:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The deletion of the Cultural Marxism article has been discussed to death. I don't believe it's fruitful to debate over whether it was "salted for Marxist ideological reasons" or "It is the worst case of WP:PUSH I have ever seen and a complete failure by involved admins". Particularly given that none of the 3 closers of the AGF were Chillum or RGlocester. Also, one of the results of that long discussion is the article is at Draft:Cultural Marxism. You should instead be worrying about bringing the draft up to a standard acceptable to the community, presuming you're allowed to edit. Nil Einne (talk) 13:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Further, I have deleted a copy of the article at Talk:Cultural Marxist . It's clear by comparing to that a lot of the content originated from the older article. Please remember our copyright licences require attribution. If you are going to be copying and pasting (regardless of whether you modify it) content to other locations, you should be properly attributing it to the original article so the original contributors can be properly attributed, and as I said above that is currently at Draft:Cultural Marxism. (Although if Cultural Marxism was attributed, at least you would have made a good faith effort to attribute.) See Misplaced Pages:Copying within Misplaced Pages for more info. There should also be a good reason why you are copying and pasting the content around. In this case there is none since any article development should happen at the draft article. I would like to think 172.56.6.142 is simply unaware of the draft article, but I'm fairly sure is the same editor with a different IP. Yet the content was added to the talk page after they edit the draft page. This seems to suggest the reason they edited the talk page rather than the draft page was because they weren't getting their way in the draft page and were hoping they could target an area with less attention. I would of course be willing to WP:AGF, if they have good explanation why they copied content to the talk page of Talk:Cultural Marxist rather than continuing to edit the draft article. Nil Einne (talk) 13:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Finally, the orange box when you edit and the red text in the box before you edit are quite clear that you need to notify edits on their talk pages when bringing them to ANI. None of User talk:RGloucester, User talk:Jobrot, User talk:John Foxe or User talk:Chillum seems to have been notified and I did look for deleted messages. I have notifed them for you, but failing to do this basic step isn't generally a good look for any ANI complaint. Nil Einne (talk) 13:42, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• A fine example of confusing wiki lawyering. I self reported and stated my reason for block evading because I was falsely accused and blocked for properly initiating an SPI. The sock subjects were informed of the salted SPI as were several other editors related to the deletion that the meat or sock puppet first appeared. Do your home work. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 14:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

What specific action are you seeking here? NebY (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Who cares about the SPI? There isn't a requirement to inform people of opening an SPI and I never said anything about the SPI since it was irrelevant to the points I was making. There is a requirement to inform people when you open an ANI discussing them, and you cannot assume people will know that you are opening an ANI on them because you previously opened an SPI which was deleted. (Frankly that's ridiculious.) And I still can't see any evidence you informed people who you discussed in this ANI, the fact you appear to have evaded the point on not informing people when opening this ANI suggests you did in fact fail to do so. Or perhaps you simply have problems understanding simple instructions (like the orange box when editing this page and the instructions in the page header) and my comments which I felt were clear enough that I was referring to ANI (particularly since I didn't say SPI anywhere before this comment). Either way, this strongly suggests to me your complaints are without merit, without having to even look at the SPI (I'm not an admin so I can't). I don't get the relevance of your other points to my comment. Are you referring to someone else? It may help if you are specific as to who you are referring to. Nil Einne (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Please read the title. I self reported for block evading because I was banned for starting a SPI. I care about the SPI because I got blocked for starting one and accused of being a sock by Chillum. Chillum never specified any sock in particular nor did he start a SPI that I am aware of. He just tossed an accusation as a way to justify blocking me, that is what is known as a convenient excuse. It has no merit and I am here for that reason. If he never blocked me I would not be here. Do you understand That? 172.56.8.117 (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you're missing my point. The SPI was completely irrelevant to my original comments which were concerning your failure to notify people despite opening this ANI thread on them (and other stuff, none of which related to the SPI), which the orange box when you edit, and the red text before you edit make clear you need to do. The SPI was irrelevant to my points, and so you mentioning that you informed people when opening the SPI was irrelevant, and not something I cared about, or I'm guessing anyone else. If you truly care about the SPI, you should be giving yourself the maximum chance people will actual pay attention to you. That means you should be doing what you are required to do when opening the ANI. And it also means you shouldn't be mentioning irrelevant stuff like you informing people when you opened the SPI when someone mentions that you failed to do the basic task of informing people when opening the ANI. (It also means you should be concentrating on the SPI, not how the deletion of the cultural marxism article was some great evil which is what a lot of your original comment appeared to be about. Nil Einne (talk) 13:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not sure, but my guess is that the IP is confusing the AfD for "Cultural Marxism" with WP:SPI, and likely some of the talk page from the old article where this was discussed. The AfD was closed by 3 admins, and then deleted. Afterwards, a redirect was created. There were attempts to restore some of the talk history - but in the end: The whole thing was a huge mess. Note that there is now a "Draft" at Draft:Cultural Marxism, and a great deal of discussion there. I think what happened was that this editor had his IP address changed, was mistaken either for another editor, or as someone attempting to avoid scrutiny, and an IP was blocked. It appears to be a T-mobile IP, so perhaps part of the confusion is the changing IP addresses, and it's become a vicious circle in him/her trying to explain the situation. — Ched :  ?  14:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

No confusion between AFD and SPI. The action I am seeking is 1. Look at the reason I was blocked, it is clearly for initiating a SPI. 2. look at the SPI I initiated which was well laid out and then quickly closed and salted. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 14:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Could you link to the initial block and SPI report so we can assess the situation objectively? --Jayron32 14:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Here is my edit summary which is now missing the SPI investigation but clearly shows I informed the parties and those affected by the meat puppet. SPI summary User:Jobrot claims to be a Noob on their user page: Jobrot first edit 8 Dec 2014 was to a heated discussion to delete and article that existed for 9 years: On the same day Jobrot starts using wiki technical jargon of why the article should be deleted. Clearly not a noob and demonstrating the clearest example of using deception to avoid being caught as a sock or for meat puppetry which is treated the same as a sock per WP:SOCK. I edit analyzed every editor involved in the AFD review because of comments made about new accounts, etc. Only one showed a remarkable similarity to Jobrot and that is User:RGloucester. Of 529 total edits made by Jobrot nearly all are linked to RGloucester who claims to be a Marxist on their user page. Jobrot is editing as a SPA and only in closely related Marxist articles to the deleted Cultural Marxist article. There is no way Jobrot is legite and clearly a meat puppet. The facts speak for themselves and I was banned for doing my homework and starting a SPI. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 15:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) For admins: - for non-admins: submitted by: 172.56.15.36 — Ched :  ?  14:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - OK - the first thing I'll note is that you (IP 172) can NOT go around calling editors "paranoid" and such. Not seeing anywhere you impersonated Chillum though, so I'm not sure where that came from (we'll have to hear from Chillum for that I suppose) — Ched :  ?  15:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
• Comment 2 - OK, I've looked about as much as I intend to absent further requests by others:

1. NEVER speculate about mental health issues of another editor: (see: WP:NPA)
2. I don't really see anything in regards to John Foxe issues seem to be addressed in other venues.
3. I don't really see enough in the SPI to validate a block of either user, although I agree that ...
4. Jobrot is a new account seemingly devoted to the topic of Marxism, but that's not a violation of policy
5. Jobrot has more knowledge of wiki than is expected with the amount of experience that account has: BUT - again absent other evidence of wrongdoing, there's nothing blockable there either. WP:MEAT and WP:SPA may apply to some extent, but not to the extent that anything is actionable.
6. I think Chillum may have been a bit quick on the trigger with the original block, and a bit more WP:AGF would not have hurt.
7. The second block was valid because the first IP was blocked, so indeed it was block evasion. However, given the circumstances I'm in favor of overlooking that.
8. You're (IP 172) not blocked at the moment, so perhaps best to just take this all as a learning experience, and visit another topic for a bit until the fires of this die down. I understand your frustration, but I feel you've gone as far as you can in regards to pointing out issues on the Marxism topic and similarities of agreement between the other two editors.

That's just my two cents worth after having a look around. — Ched :  ?  15:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for acknowledging the SPI had merit. 1. It should of been looked at by more people and not quickly salted. 2. The analyzer does not lie about interactions. 3. Chillum admits to smoking herb on his user page and I am unsure of his mental state or whether he was under the influence at the time but I saw his block as either paranoid behavior or malicious behavior. Because I am an IP I know many have biases towards IP's and as a result exhibit paranoid behavior towards IP's. That was lesser than malicious although it may have been done for that reason instead. 4. Jobrot clearly is not legite based on their clear deception and jumping in a very heated discussion on their first edit while claiming to be a noob and then using all kinds of wiki tech terms on their first day editing. If anyone should of been blocked as an obvious sock it would be Jobrot. 172.56.6.142 (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to participate in this discussion (so admins feel free to blank anything I've said, if it's not allowed) - but the reason I appear to have become so quickly versed in wikipedia "alphabet soup" as the accuser puts it, is that I've been editing as an IP for substantially longer than as a registered user. The idea that I jumped in a very heated discussion on their first edit while claiming to be a noob and then using all kinds of wiki tech terms on their first day editing is a misapprehension. I walked in... from considerably further away... and I read the signs as I went. --Jobrot (talk) 16:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Then why do claim to be a Noob which clearly you are not. Not even close. And that edit analyzer shows almost all your edits are with one other editor, no one else comes close. That is very strong evidence of a meat puppet. 172.56.16.85 (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: I originally blocked this IP after they engaged in edit warring and disruption at the cultural Marxism draft page/talk page using multiple IPs and also filed a frivolous SPI report. Our sock puppet policy does not allow the use of alternate accounts to file complaints against other users. Disruptive edit warring and political rants while changing IPs is also a violation. I blocked the user for multiple violations of the sock puppet policy, their interpretation of the reasons for the block seems cherry picked and over simplified.

The IP is mistaken about me deleting the SPI, another admin deleted it likely because it was ill formed and without merit or evidence.

• Never said you deleted it. It is about you unfounded accusation that I am a sock. It is not my fault you do not understand that by now. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 10:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The user came back under another IP, proceeded to impersonate me on several user talk pages by repeating my warning to him to other users including a copy of my signature. This gave the appearance that I had left block messages to all of these users accusing them of using multiple IPS. At least one user thought I was accusing them.

• No it highlighted Chillum's unjustified block and brought Chillum under scrutiny. It was reposting what you said to bring you under scrutiny.

I blocked that IP for block evasion. The users stated position is that they will use their dynamic IPs to evade block and encourages a range block in the hopes of collateral damage, I think that clarifies if this user is acting in good faith.

• Not what I said. I said You could at least block my current IP and all the other one for a least a year or permanently. That would be screwing some other unfortunate sap who just wanted to edit anomalously and highly unlikely ever affect me after tonight due to the thousands of IP the carrier randomly assigns. I was pointing that out so you did not do another knee jerk reaction that would screw millions. I made my point and it was effective and likely the only reason you did not do a knee jerk range block. I was taking care of others and being a smart a$$ to Chillum who blocked with the accusation I am a sock. Again Whose Sock am I supposed to be? Where is the investigation?

I am blocking the reporting IP for block evasion, a short block as the user has made it clear that he is using a shared dynamic IP range and they intend to evade further. I think that since this user seems only interest in certain topics it will be easy to recognize them and that a range block is not needed. As always I welcome scrutiny of my actions.

• What subjects would that be? Again more nonsense by Chillum. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I would gladly lift the block on this user if they stopped switching identities regularly to avoid scrutiny. I suggest they create an account, I did not put an autoblock on this latest IP. If they are able to behave under that account in such a way that does not result in a fresh block then I consider the matter settled. Chillum 16:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• That is a manipulative way to force editors to register, I am glad you are no longer claiming I was logged out to post as a sock as you did in the original block. That is why I brought this here. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• The user appears to be trying to re-created deleted and salted content - Draft talk:Cultural Marxism --Jobrot (talk) 17:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Chillum you a liar and a blatant liar at that. No one impersonated you, as made clear I reposted your comments on other pages involved and made my comments. There was no edit war either as no one exceeded WP:3RR. You are fabricating to cover up your unjustified block for starting a SPI. I entered a SPI and you blocked me. You continue to lie and are you not one of the "neutral" admins who deleted and salted the article. It seems you are abusing your admin privileges to abuse and silence dissent. Your an obvious liar to anyone who looks at the record. I do my homework and you just go about abusing editors. The admin who looked at you said you did not assume good faith. I thinks it is much worse than that. 172.56.16.85 (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• I will leave this to another admin to resolve, it is clear this user will keep evading their blocks. It seems they are taking my response personally so another admin handling it may diffuse the situation some. Chillum 18:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've just blocked 172.56.16.85 for block evasion. If they carry on with this, the edit filter awaits. -- The Anome (talk) 18:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV (speaking of "blatant"). Thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• I am glad you brought that up. Is it civil to accuse someone of being a sock and then block them without evidence? Whose sock am I supposed to be? 172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I suggest you take a read of Misplaced Pages:Edit warring again. There isn't any requirement to break 3RR for there to be edit warring. Note I'm not commenting on whether there was edit warring, simply that the claim "There was no edit war either as no one exceeded WP:3RR", fails from the get go, and is actually another one of the several things which suggests your complaints lack merit. For the same reason and more, I also strongly suggest you tone down your language. It's not helping anything. To be blunt, it'll probably be best to drop the SPI. Several editors have suggested that there wasn't enough evidence to merit action. Regardless of whether it should have been deleted, there's no point making a big deal about it. If you want to have any chance of continuing to edit the draft cultural marxism article, you really need to start editing more constructively with others, regardless of whether you believe them to be socks when there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate they are. (Note the socking issue is basically irrelevant to the AFD. It had quite a few participants, even if your claims are correct about the 2 alleged socks, the chance they had a significant influence is very slim. This doesn't mean socking is acceptable, simply that even if the wrong decision was made in the AfD as you appear to believe, the purported socking was surely only a minor component.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• The AFD was nearly tied to keep or delete. Socks had a big effect on the outcome. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Once again, you need to reread stuff. This time the closing statement Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Cultural Marxism (2nd nomination). None of the 3 closers said the AfD was nearly tied. Actually, this is incredibly unlikely since if it was nearly tied, then it would almost definitely have ended up as no consensus rather than delete. If you don't understand how WP:Consensus, or WP:AFD works, perhaps you need to re-read those as well. They aren't a vote so numbers being tied may not indicate the outcome is close to tied. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Given comments like "it is what you can expect from an avowed marxist as marxists are nothing more than sophisticated thieves and you can never trust a thief"(referring to Jobrot/RGloucester on my talk page) I am retracting my above offer "I would gladly lift the block on this user if they stopped switching identities regularly to avoid scrutiny". I don't think this user's strong opinions and attitude are compatible with a neutral point of view. Chillum 18:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• That is after you blocked me not before so it has no bearing on your original decision to block. I was perturbed at your abuse of me for being an IP. Apparently Chillum has no clue as to how cellular IP's work. That is his problem not mine. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm involved as an editor at the draft cultural Marxism page, so I'm not going to take any steps in this case as an admin.

I see some priority in getting a solid, scholarly article on the "cultural Marxism" meme, following the recent controversy, etc., with the article. If I weren't involved in that way, I might have considered reducing the length of the original block if I'd been asked - it seemed a bit harsh for the behavior up to that time. In particular, the SPI was without much merit (the two users concerned have very different styles and modus operandi), but evidently sincere. Also bear in mind that this editor was not the first on the talk page to delete large chunks of material by others. The excuse used on both sides was that the material took the form of political ranting and that talk pages are not forums for political discussion. That's true, but the material by the people on the other side has been almost as bad in that respect. I wish everyone there would calm down, stop pushing their pet POVs, and concentrate on producing the best possible (neutral, informative) article, since it will be exposed to scrutiny from the community at some point. (I actually think the current version of the article is pretty good and would be fine in article space.)

All that said, this editor has come here with a culture warring mentality and has been increasingly uncivil. Having seen how they interacted with User:Chillum, and now some of their language on this page, I now don't have a lot of sympathy.

It would help if they would create an account, establish an identity here, and try to get along with others by editing articles in a neutral, incremental and civil way. Although they have a strong point of view, they actually do seem to have some relevant knowledge that we could use. But if they are here to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground in a culture war, I don't think there's a future for them. Metamagician3000 (talk) 23:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Increasingly irate for being blocked after starting a SPI and being accused of being a sock and then blocked. Again WHOSE SOCK??? Their is no merit to Chillum's accusation it is just a convenient excuse to abuse and block an IP because they are an IP. Very cultish behavior in my opinion. People are free to edit without harassment to become registered. Treating IP differently and insisting they register is harassment. I know, I have dealt with it for 10 years here. 172.56.8.117 (talk) 10:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Enough group think. Bottom line is Chillum blocked an IP for starting an SPI and he keeps fabricating lies to justify it. He accused me of being a sock. Well whose Sock??? That is the hole in Chillum's thinking and easily proves his maleficence. His behavior was either paranoia, inability to handle admin duties, or maliciousness. You decide. Hot off the press is the events of the fiasco posted here: Look it over and it will be clear there was no edit war or sock as he accuses with no evidence. I have always been an IP and I am not easily pressured to join because of relentless requests (kind of cultish behavior). Here's an article to consider creating the Cult of Misplaced Pages. Chillum considers abusing IP's to be acceptable behavior and he lacks integrity. He has lied and repeated his lies and I have pointed that out quite thoroughly at the above link. I will not stand for his lies and abuse, Chillum must be someone special in the real world, kind of like the comic guy on the Simpsons. Of course I do not mean to offend Comic Book Guy. 208.54.32.236 (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I've removed a bunch of comments from the IP above which were either inserted in the middle of someone's signed comment. Or were inserted between signed comments, which may be fine, if the IP had bothered to sign, but they didn't. See for what was removed. This created a very confusing thread where it wasn't clear who had written what. Ignoring the block evasion, the IP really, really needs to learn how to participate in wikipedia discussion (like signing comments, and not inserting their comments in to the middle of someone else's signed comment), if they want to continue here. I did this manually because when I tried to undo one of these changes, the most recent one, it couldn't be done. I think I got everything though. Nil Einne (talk) 13:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I reinserted my responses in the ANI I started.172.56.8.117 (talk) 13:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

And I reverted you. If you want any chance for your comments to stand, fix the issues you've made. Don't expect anyone else to fix your mess, particularly when you're a block evader. Nil Einne (talk) 13:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for signing. There's still no excuse for you inserting your comments in to the middle of others signed comments though so I've reverted such comments. Please fix that issue if you want your remaining comments to stand. Nil Einne (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

User:1027E canvassing

1027E (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is canvassing regarding an AfD discussion. Diff. After warning: Diff. Diff. I think a block might be in order.  Mbinebri  14:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Could someone please block...

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Furan Mulatar (talk · contribs), who is spamming multiple pages, both in article and in userspace? G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Now blocked. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, so that's how NUKE works. Cool. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The Mighty Jingles

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Could I get some more eyes (preferably admin) on this page? Apparently the subject mentioned it in a media outlet and it is now being swamped by vandals. I've filed a RFPP but no one has responded yet. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Javalenok

User Javalenok (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continues personal attacks after final warning:

• PA on article talk page ==> warning by user Johnuniq:
• response to Johnuniq ==> formal 1st level warning for NPA:
• restored PA on article talk page ==> 3rd level warning:
• "Go fuck you self, owner" ==> final warning:
• "Exposing your misbehaviour... So far, go fuck yourself." after final warning

Not the first time. - DVdm (talk) 17:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Based on the ongoing nature of the attacks, the given warnings, the likelihood of it continuing, and that the attacks are part of a content dispute and are likely to have a chilling effect on our neutral point of view I have blocked this user for 48 hours. Our editors should not have to put up with abuse just because they have an opposing point of view in a content dispute. Chillum 17:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violator

In August last year Sosonet91 added copyright material from a cakeentertainment.com page (which carries a clear notice, "© Copyright Cake Entertainment") to the article Angelo Rules, and then, after I removed it, added it again. I left a talk page warning on each occasion, the second time with an extra note to say that I would request a block if it happened again. Today the editor again added the same content. Block requested until such time as the editor can demonstrate both understanding of our copyright policy and intent to abide by it. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I have indef-blocked. Thanks for reporting -- Diannaa (talk) 19:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Forged signature, editing other people's comments

IPV6 address from Belgium pretending to be an IPV4 address from Canada and faking the posting time for good measure. Not sure what to make of this or whether any action is needed but I thought I should raise a flag. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

2A02:A03F:12DA:D300:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs) Add link to this users edits as they might need examination for accuracy. One of the edits uses a blog as a source. MarnetteD|Talk 01:22, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

And now he is editing other people's comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

And again. (...Sound of Crickets...) --Guy Macon (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

And yet again.

(...CHIRP... ...CHIRP...)

Four IPV6 addresses used so far:

• 2A02:A03F:12DA:D300:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:1221:E100:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:12E6:5500:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:12DD:D700:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)

And (what a shock!) he is also a spammer. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hello, I have no idea what is happening here. Some IP user added a comment with a fake IP signature and a fake date from two months ago. I have no idea why anyone would want to fake a name and date. This was at Talk:Tor (anonymity network). I responded to them and they wanted my comment and their comment deleted. I cannot imagine why - the question was fair enough and maybe other people would want to see it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My guess is that he is experimenting with using an IP-hopping proxy to spam Misplaced Pages and thinks that by forging his IP address and posting date and deleting your comment pointing out that he forged his IP address he will be able to avoid detection. What he doesn't realize is that his ham-handed attempts to hide his activity make him stand out like a sore thumb and will no doubt result in his favorite proxies being blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Conduct of User:Lion101010 on Mandodari

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WP:PERSONAL attack on Mandodari page:

• "You will loose your head Redtigerxyz be careful I am warning you."
• "Wats up Redtigerxyz you are alive only because you are a woman."

--Redtigerxyz 18:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User anyway has been given a 4im. I think a block is in order. Clearly not here to built the encyclopedia. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've indefblocked them, per the above. -- The Anome (talk) 20:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Kostanay and User:Rinice

I am afraid I need some advice since I am unsure what to do. User:Rinice yesterday started to post big chunks of text to Kostanay. They have no contribution outside this article. The first one was copyvio, I reverted it and warned the user. They continued, adding latge pieces of text, which were recognizable as machine translation from Russian (some words were not translated and it was clear they are Russian). I think this is copyvio as well, but I can not find anything since there is no source. I reverted this as well. Today, they continued. I tried contacting them on their talk page in English and in Russian, but they never respond. Suggestions to proceed are most welcome.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I have placed a final warning on the user's talk page. Any further copy vio should result in an indef block. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. But how can we prove it is copyvio? Only their first edit was directly copied from elsewhere. For other edits, I can not find the source of the text.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Mr Ymblanter, my editing is not a copy-pasted text! As for my interest in the theme - it is a project of our university as we want to present more information than the page contains. I don't understand why you keep reverting my editings, because all the information is taken from our local archives and newspapers that is why I cannot give you direct links. I'm not guilty if other people from Kostanay might have used a resembling information. I live in this city, so, please, don't blame me in the lack of competence! It is I who need an urgent help here, as the interface of Misplaced Pages turned out to be not very convenient at all! And we thought that it is a 💕, open for everyone who CAN include something interesting ang new! But in practice I see only those people who suppress any beginnings! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rinice (talk • contribs) 19:38, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

@Rinice: I'd suggest you learn on how to cite the information you use. I believe you are looking for the template that is used for books and such (Template:Cite book). If you need, use {{helpme}} on your talk page followed by your question. Hope this helps! -- Orduin 21:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

It is great that you use the old information to improve the article, but please note that old newspapers are likely to be copyrighted, and adding even translated text from them would be copyright violation. The only way you can add material is to add your own text (written based on the sources, but not repeating them literally and not even closely paraphrasing them).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User insists on creating foreign language articles at en.wiki

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Rameshpoonia1 (talk · contribs) has created many times an article in Hindi (and at least one in Arabic) that are essentially translations of the en.wiki page Indraprastha Institute of Information Technology. The user has been warned about this activity on many occasions (just look at the history of his user talk page.

In response to one of his latest creations of this type of article, I made a request at his user talk page (see here) for him to stop such activities, and to respond to the talk page warnings he had been given. I included the {{Contrib-hi1}} template so that, if he is unable to communicate in English, he would at least receive the Hindi request to stop trying to create articles in Hindi. His response to my request was to blank his talk page, and to continue to create the Hindi language article.

It has become clear that this user has no interest in listening to the advice he is being given, and that a block (at least a temporary block) may be required to call his attention to the matter. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 21:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If I kept posting English articles on the Hindi Misplaced Pages, even after they asked me in English to stop, they'd be completely justified in blocking me on the grounds of WP:CIR. I'm more open to an indefinite, but easily appealed, block, simply to prevent further disruption. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The user has not edited since the AN/I notice and the CSD A10 tag being applied to the article. He may be getting the message. I'd like to wait one more edit to see how he proceeds before blocking. —C.Fred (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If you'll look at the history of the user's talk page and his deleted contributions log (I'm not admin, I can't look at that, but I'm sure there's a fair few deleted contributions), you'll see that prior A10 warnings have proved ineffective. Perhaps the AN/I warning will be sufficient. I'm not sanguine about that. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 22:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

FYI, The user has 24 deleted edits. ScrapIronIV (talk) 22:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My lack of optimism has been validated. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 22:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Since they have started back up without response, I've blocked the account from editing until they respond to other editors' comments. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:DISRUPT by M.Bitton

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Hello,

Please, can someone do something to prevent M.Bitton (talk · contribs) from further disruptive editing and edit-warring?

As shown on the previous ANI request, M.Bitton's edits were largely made of putting back controversial versions of articles, as previously edited by Historian Student (talk · contribs) (or by his multiple socks). That even made me believing that M.Bitton was one of Historian Student socks, which is obviously not the case. Thus, the sole explaination is that M.Bitton is a disruptive editor (as stated by Weegeerunner on the previous request : a "common case disruptive editing") who doesn't care about other people's opinions or about Misplaced Pages's policies.

Btw, note that he's doing a mess on Algerian War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), while being reverted by multiple editors who clearly disagree with his edits (actually, putting back an edit made by Historian Student) and describing another user's edits as "BS". So he made 14 reverts on many contributors' edits in Algerian War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) since Feb.17th

Note that he also edit-warred about the "Algerian War" subject on List of wars involving Algeria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), an article where he also deleted sourced content while describing his action as "deletion of original research" on diff's comments (post-Feb.17th edits only) :

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
--Omar-toons (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

+while I was writing this request: (+kind diff's comment on that last one) --Omar-toons (talk) 23:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Had thrown this at WP:3RR before found this. Seems to make more sense over there but will leave it to someone else to decide which one to close. Amortias (T)(C) 23:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I blocked this highly-disruptive user for one week; I also fully protected the page for two days as this seems to be an ongoing issue involving more than one user (although perhaps an SPI would be warranted for M.) If this page protection is obstructing any immediate improvement to the article let me know, but looking at the history it seems like the majority of the editing going on is content disputes and edit warring. I think a two day lockdown of the page is a pretty minor action, but a positive one. Swarm 23:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Think this has already been to WP:SPI here and no connection was found. Amortias (T)(C) 23:44, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Good to know, thanks. Swarm 23:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Jantzen7

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• Jantzen7 (talk · contribs)

Should this guy get the benefit of the doubt after the second blanking of Talk:List of hentai anime? They are clearly not here to contributed to the wiki. —Farix (t | c) 02:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Based on this, I'm going to go with "No"... --IJBall (talk) 02:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

As hilarious as I find that diff, I'm gonna go with "no" as well. User indeffed. Swarm 02:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Sigh, User:Pagesclo again...

User:Pagesclo (formerly blocked user User:Craftdraw) is once again mass moving pages. Since it is a topic area I am not familiar with, I have no idea if it is justified or not. More indicative of the user's general attitude is this edit. While minor in itself, the edit summary ("revenge edit") says it all; User:Pagesclo reverted my edit simply because it was my edit. I have tried communicating with this user on previous occasions, with no response. The user is disruptive and unwilling to engage, is constantly moving pages without consensus, and is prone to template-spamming articles. I don't like asking for people to be blocked, and can't recall the last time I did so, but my patience is wearing very thin... Simon Burchell (talk) 09:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

For info, previous posting from ANI archive at Disruptive editing by User:Pagesclo and User:Pagesclo... There are others. In the "Disuptive editing" linked incident, the most recent, the user never responded here. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:27, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also just noticed this current sockpuppet investigation. Simon Burchell (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also just noticed this current sockpuppet investigation. Simon Burchell (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Deletition of an article that was put for submission

Good day,

I wrote an article and submitted it for checking in September 2014. It was rejected because of some content issues, and I was requested to make changes and resubmit it. I did, and resubmitted it, then it was rejected again in January by some more minor content reasons. Last week I fixed them and resubmitted the article...
Now it was rejected and deleted (!) because of unexplained Copyright issues.
This is the message I got:

 17:39, 20 February 2015 Cryptic (talk | contribs) deleted page User:Silverray123/sandbox 

 (G8: Redirect to a deleted or nonexistent page: Draft:Stormy Atmosphere) 

The copyright issue never came up at two last times, and nothing was added to the article since then, few things were actually removed, so unfortunately I cannot understang why it suddenly came up this time,
especcially when I can assure you that all the rights are reserved to the band the article is about, nothing was taken from anywhere else (like albums pictures, band picture, names etc.)
Yes I am a new user and don't have much experience, but unfortunately the answers I've got so far were rather partial and therefore not helpful... Especially last time when the work I put so much effort in was just thrashed...
So I would really appreciate an explanation, because I really want the world to see my works and continue contributing to the Misplaced Pages knowledge base...

Thank you in advance,
Silverray — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverray123 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

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