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Revision as of 22:42, 25 February 2015 editPaleAqua (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers5,182 edits →Star Wars (film): cmt← Previous edit Revision as of 22:49, 25 February 2015 edit undoNumber 57 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators291,658 edits →Star Wars (film): rrNext edit →
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* '''Endorse close''' First note a no-consensus close does not prevent a future requested move, though it is slightly questionable based on the wording if this is a "Not Moved" or "No consensus to move". {{ping|Number 57}} I hope you don't mind that I echo the request in one of the other move reviews below of being clearer between the two cases? Given that some of the comments indicate fatigue on this issue, I would suggest waiting a while before trying again. Second, move review is for reviewing the close, not for rearguing the discussion. Closes should considered the information presented or referenced in the discussion. I also don't see the concern that the wikiproject was not informed given that the discussion happened on one of the main pages for the film and thus should have been visible to anyone watching that page. Note also that conciseness, not just common name was used as arguments against the move, so even if the n-grams etc. above had been made and changed the common name argument, it is still likely that a strong oppose argument via concise would have still have been made likely still resulting in a no-consensus move. ] (]) 22:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC) * '''Endorse close''' First note a no-consensus close does not prevent a future requested move, though it is slightly questionable based on the wording if this is a "Not Moved" or "No consensus to move". {{ping|Number 57}} I hope you don't mind that I echo the request in one of the other move reviews below of being clearer between the two cases? Given that some of the comments indicate fatigue on this issue, I would suggest waiting a while before trying again. Second, move review is for reviewing the close, not for rearguing the discussion. Closes should considered the information presented or referenced in the discussion. I also don't see the concern that the wikiproject was not informed given that the discussion happened on one of the main pages for the film and thus should have been visible to anyone watching that page. Note also that conciseness, not just common name was used as arguments against the move, so even if the n-grams etc. above had been made and changed the common name argument, it is still likely that a strong oppose argument via concise would have still have been made likely still resulting in a no-consensus move. ] (]) 22:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
**{{ping|PaleAqua}} Yes, I have changed the way I denote no consensus results since those comments were made. ] ]] 22:48, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


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Revision as of 22:49, 25 February 2015

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2015 February

Star Wars (film)

Star Wars (film) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

Number 57 was unaware of of significant additional information not discussed in the RM:

The pages that the requested moves were dealing with received a lot of opposition citing common name, but I have found additional N gram statistics that disprove the opposition. They need to be considered. Also, the WikiProject for Star Wars was not properly informed as a whole, so I assume the participants in the discussion may have been especially conservative over the original trilogy. The possible bias in the opposition may be overturned. If there is bias, but I believe the statistics I have found are solid enough for discussion:

In the ngram for the Empire Stikes back, usage of "The Empire Strikes Back" has been in heavy decline from 1999 to 2008. The decline is apparent in the corpus English shown here, in the corpus English Fiction shown here, in the corpus American English shown here, in the corpus British English shown here, in the corpus American English (2009) shown here, in the corpus British English (2009) shown here, in the corpus English (2009) shown here, in the corpus English Fiction (2009) shown here, and in the corpus English One Million (2009) shown here.

Assuming that by searching "Star Wars Episode V" (which is the max limit of words you can search on ngrams) it has an obvious relation to the full title Star Wars Episode V The Empire Strikes Back, the following results are revealed. The term has based in great increase over the years in the corpus American English shown here, and in the corpus English shown here. All other corpuses do not have any results for them.

Based on its decline in all corpuses of English, the Empire Strikes Back alone is NOT the common name.

I performed the same search for Star Wars Episode VI Return of the Jedi. The results show an increase in Star Wars Episode VI in the corpuses American English shown here, the corpus English shown here, again no results for other corpuses. Return of the Jedi as the title is shown in decline in all corpuses (except English Fiction) just as the Empire Strike Back was. English One Million (2009) shows decline here. English Fiction (2009) shows decline here. English (2009) shows decline here. British English (2009) shows a decline here. American English (2009) shows a decline here. English Fiction shows a decline but a slight return to increase shown here. In the English corpus, it shows a decline here. British English shows decline here. American English shows decline here.

Again, based on these results, Return of the Jedi alone is not the common name.

I did not look for decline in "Star Wars" as term because it would be impossible to know for sure if it included only the 1977 film in the results. But I did find that the term Star Wars Episode IV is increasing in the corpuses English (shown here) and American English. (Shown here).

The RM should be reopened and relisted. I did not discuss the close with the closing administrator because I feel the discussion has been over with just a little too long but still soon enough for a move review. I realize I should have done this earlier, but I see no reason this move review can't be considered.Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 21:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Endorse close First note a no-consensus close does not prevent a future requested move, though it is slightly questionable based on the wording if this is a "Not Moved" or "No consensus to move". @Number 57: I hope you don't mind that I echo the request in one of the other move reviews below of being clearer between the two cases? Given that some of the comments indicate fatigue on this issue, I would suggest waiting a while before trying again. Second, move review is for reviewing the close, not for rearguing the discussion. Closes should considered the information presented or referenced in the discussion. I also don't see the concern that the wikiproject was not informed given that the discussion happened on one of the main pages for the film and thus should have been visible to anyone watching that page. Note also that conciseness, not just common name was used as arguments against the move, so even if the n-grams etc. above had been made and changed the common name argument, it is still likely that a strong oppose argument via concise would have still have been made likely still resulting in a no-consensus move. PaleAqua (talk) 22:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

War in Afghanistan (2001–14)

War in Afghanistan (2001–14) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

This move review only recieved the input of six editors, three of whom were canvassed. You can see this on the talk page. Supossedly this RM was discussed by 23 people in total but the RM recived only three editor's input. The reasoning for the RM's decision to move was that there was editor consensus but this is totally false as, a subsequent discussion showed that there is no such consensus. You can see here that editors support a merger so how can it be possible that there was consensus that it should be moved originally. Also the discussion before this here was closed by an involved editor who himself/herself was against the merger. Due to the canvassing and the input of only three editors, this RM should be rendered null and void and the subsequent propse merger closure by an involved admin should be discounted. A new RM should be started so that we can build consensus on what is the most appropriate direction in which to take the page.Mbcap (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

  • relist. We're in a bit of a mess at the moment. The original discussion seemed to indicate consensus for a move, but there was sufficient contention that it was rejected as an uncontroversial move. Then a dedicated move discussion was set up, for which input was canvassed, and closed after five days as seemingly unanimous consensus on the issue. I believe this to have been a false consensus.
    When after the discussion a wider merge discussion of the new War in Afghanistan (2015–present) was started and more outside opinions came in, consensus became far less clear. This is compounded by some opposition to merging that referred back to the RM as indicating consensus that this is indeed the way forward. I'm in a bind on what is best at the moment, my own strong opinion that this is not the way to treat the subject makes it hard for me to look at the discussion from a neutral perspective, but I feel there have been sufficient irregularities to step on the break before overhauling our article structure on the conflict. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse but overturn ( and allow for new RM ) The RM was closed 25 days ago and a subsequent move/merge was closed as no consensus. While the original discussion was a bit long ago for a MR, the new discussion shows that the consensus was not as strong as it appeared originally, as the results appear to have been muddied. I do not think the original close was wrong on behalf of the closer even as it became clearer after that there might be issues with the consensus. As previous relist results of older RM from MR have been closed too quickly as the appear backlogged when reopened, I suggest that the RM be overturned and a new RM be opened ( which notices also to the 2015-present article. ) PaleAqua (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Revert move, first let me say that I am not an uninvolved party as I am the one who proposed the merger of the two articles after finding out after the fact that a new article was created and the article "War in Afghanistan (2001-present)" was moved. As stated before, and as shown on the article in questions talk page. An admin still requested that a move request be made as the discussion about the possibility of a new article was not seen as unanimous. A move request was started, but there was improper canvassing done from the beginning of the move request, of only those editors who supported the creation of a 2015-present article to begin with. No other notifications were put out. The admin, seeing a unanimous vote for a move consented.
Therefore, the move was fruit from a poisoned tree. Using that logic, the move should be reverted, and a new consensus formed as to whether there should be a single article or two articles. There is presently an ongoing debate as to whether there is a single conflict or two separated conflicts divided by a change of ISAF to RS.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Saint Ignatius' College, Adelaide

Talk:Saint Ignatius' College, Adelaide (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

I manually, boldly, merged a talk page that wasn't moved to the new article's name, where there was discussion at both pages. I think what I've done is OK, but I wanted to report it somewhere to ensure it is reviewed. :-) Mark Hurd (talk) 09:22, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

While reviewing a number of "bad/missing" Talk page moves, I determined the real problem with this page was that it was "manually" moved back to its original name (just by editing existing redirects) by Wjs13 (talk · contribs) on 20:07, 22 October 2008‎ and 20:07, 22 October 2008‎. The talk pages were not so simply swapped at the time. Mark Hurd (talk) 11:11, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
@Markhurd: - I think the correct procedure in this instance is to perform a WP:HISTMERGE - it will require an administrator to carry that out, and there are instructions at that page on how to request one. This page is for assessing closures of formal move requests rather than assessing moves per se. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 13:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
@Amakuru: I will request the HistMerge. I knew this wasn't the most correct forum, but where should I have put this other than just on the talk page in question? Mark Hurd (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Walter White (Breaking Bad)

Walter White (Breaking Bad) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

Closed prematurely, the consensus to move was nearly reached; I tried reasoning with the closing editor here, but was met with a firm refusal. Chunk5Darth (talk) 01:51, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Evidence presented that draws no comment from any other person can't be interpreted as persuasive. The evidence you mention appears to be page view stats. Page view stats do not per se demonstrate a primary topic. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Weird, I always assumed the idea of having a primary topic was to make it easier for readers to find the page they want. I guess we can ignore what people are looking for then, because fuck them, right? -- Calidum 22:44, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
A common view that I still find mystifying. Removing disambiguation makes it *harder* to find the page you want, and *harder* to be confident you have the link to the page you want. It also confuses titling with search engines, whether the Misplaced Pages internal search engine, or external, like google. Whichever you use when looking for something, you get a list of titles of likely candidates, and the disambiguation helps. Assuming 100% want what 80% want may help the 80% from having to click again or to learn to search unambiguously, but is very unhelpful for the minority. The idea of having a primary topic to make it easier for readers, at the expense of meaningful titles, or logical consistent titling, is plain wrong. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:29, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - User:Number 57 has done an excellent job closing RMs everywhere I've seen, but I definitely would suggest that in cases like this where there is no consensus either way, a better closing summary would be

No consensus to move.

rather than

not moved. No consensus to ...

because it makes it much clearer whether or not a consensus was found in opposition to the move. (Of course, the page is not moved in any case. I disagree with the assessment of the !voters but I agree with the close.) Red Slash 19:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse - the oppose arguments, that the Breaking Bad character does not yet meet long term significance are clearly valid, and they clearly counteract the equally valid support arguments that the character is primary by common usage. I agree with Red Slash's comment about clarity - when I'm closing an RM as not moved, I always differentiate in the bold text between Not moved and No consensus to move. They are subtly different, but have the same result.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:12, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse. There were valid arguments on both sides, and there was no consensus. That is also the outcome Number 57 summarized. This is not RM2. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Daniel (closed)

The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Daniel (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

A move was requested to move Daniel to Daniel (biblical figure). I opposed the move, but I acknowledge there was consensus to move it. The issue now is which page should be called Daniel. The closer determined that the move was to be from Daniel (name) to Daniel. The thing is, only two editors were in favour of this, while two other editors explicitly argued for Daniel (disambiguation) to be the "main" (Daniel) page. So I am posting it here because (a) there doesn't seem to be consensus for this particular move, and (b) in such situations, where there is no clear primary topic (between the name, the biblical person, and the biblical book) the normal practice is to make the disambiguation page the main page. Thus, the closer's rationale to move Daniel (name) to Daniel rather than Daniel (disambiguation) to Daniel seems very weak. See also the John page, where the disambiguation page is the "main" one.StAnselm (talk)

Various articles about popular names refer to the article about the name, whereas others refer to a disambiguation page. Though StAnselm has alluded to a trichotomy "between the name, the biblical person, and the biblical book", articles such as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't give any precedence to the biblical character or the associated book. Though there are some exceptions, there isn't a particularly compelling reason for very common names to default to articles about biblical characters. There is some variation about whether to use the name-based article or a disambiguation page, however there doesn't seem to be any indication that the disambiguation page is the "normal practice".--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
So with three of names you mention, the main page is the disambiguation page. I'm not saying here that the biblical character article should take precedence; I'm saying that Daniel would be in the same category as the ones you mention. (Unlike Andrew, for example, where there is no biblical book.) StAnselm (talk) 20:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Note: I have started a move request, Luke (disambiguation) → Luke. StAnselm (talk) 20:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Further note: A discussion is now underway to split the name page into Daniel (given name) and Daniel (surname). StAnselm (talk) 02:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
There is a tendency for names that also have other meanings (e.g. mark, john, bob) to have the disambiguation page as the main page, but generally the name is the primary article for words that are only used as a proper noun (e.g. Michael, Chris, Joseph).--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I also think the move should have left Daniel as disambig page, and discussed it with the closer, getting him to at least add to his close statement, but before I noticed this review I started a new RM discussion about that, at Talk:Daniel#Requested move 7 February 2015. That discussion will probably converge more quickly than the typical move review. Dicklyon (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Pottawatomie Massacre (closed)

  • Pottawatomie Massacre – overturned by closer. Given Ajax's clarification of what they intended in their comment, my rationale now agrees with the nominator's. As such, I'm overturning my close and reclosing as move. I'm closing this section as well, but please feel free to reopen if anyone thinks there is more to discuss. Sunrise (talk) 02:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Pottawatomie Massacre (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

A somewhat ridiculuous non-admin close reversing a unaminous Requested Move discussion, converting one support to an oppose, in direct opposition to the responder's opinion that the previous closer erred.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dicklyon (talk • contribs) 02:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Closer note: I'm happy to discuss on my user talk page (which I believe you should have done first). I think my closure rationale is clear, although I welcome a review and any questions that may arise.
In addition to the closure rationale, just including a set of points to add context to the above:
  • The RM in question was identical to a previous one that had closed only two weeks earlier.
  • No new arguments were presented in the new RM.
  • Only two new editors commented in the new RM.
  • The previous RM was closed with no consensus, and I think it is reasonable to say that editors in that RM assumed their comments would be taken into account (in fact, one of the opposers posted in the second RM without explicitly supporting or opposing). Not all supporters posted in the second RM either.
  • The support (out of two) that I "converted" to an oppose came from an editor who indeed opposed the move but thought the first discussion should have been closed as move. I think it was reasonable for me to consider this.
  • If I had closed the original RM I might indeed have called it consensus to move. However, given that it closed as no consensus, closing the second RM as move would involve in part overriding the previous closer (again, especially because no new arguments were presented). I could see this move review resulting in overturn of the previous close on the merits (pinging Cuchullain), but even then I couldn't have closed differently myself.
All that said, I really don't see why the capitalization is such a big deal, and I'm happy to go along with anything that avoids unnecessary drama. :-) Sunrise (talk) 03:10, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Sunrise, I guess for want of a nail, the horse-shoe was lost; for want of a horse-shoe ... We've managed to get a pretty good house style on the English Misplaced Pages—one that avoids the over-formatting you see rife in some technical docs, advertising, etc. It's ideal for our international non-expert readership. And we seem to be at one in this with large proportions of publishing houses out there. That's one thing. More relevant here is the procedural issue. So ... I agree with Dicklyon's points above. Tony (talk) 04:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I could probably have written a rationale for consensus as well, and I guess it would probably have been less likely to be challenged. :-) I actually started with that, but on further analysis I felt that "no consensus" would be the best alternative as long as I was taking the previous close as a starting point. (And after that - like I said, the deciding issue for me was how I treated the comment "procedural support" from an editor who said they nonetheless opposed the outcome. WP:BURO came to mind even though I didn't cite it explicitly.) But in any case, if the first couple of uninvolved editors who comment here have the same opinion, that would be more than enough for me to overturn my close. Sunrise (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Extended content
Have you looked at Misplaced Pages:Non-admin closure? It says non-admins can close when the outcome is fairly obvious. By your own words, that's certainly not the case here. If you had closed with unanimous expressed opinion, you might get away with it, but to close against a unanimous opinion? Certainly not. Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's a grey area - it says that potentially controversial closes can be made if extra care is taken, which of course I do. I've actually done quite a few, especially when there are long backlogs (like now), and this is the first time I've been challenged. I'd like to take that as implying that my closes are generally acceptable. In the case of RfCs, there is a consensus that non-admin status is not in itself a reason to overturn a closure - I'm not currently aware of a similar consensus explicitly for RMs, but I would assume the same concept applies. But in any case, this isn't really relevant to the move review, so can we take this to user talk if we continue this line of conversation? Sunrise (talk) 09:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Overturn NAC close as a contested NAC, but close instead as too soon after the previous close. Starting a new RM so soon is disrespectful to the previous discussion, tenditious, exhausting to other Wiipedians. Attempting to find a consensus through exhausting previous opponents on unimportant questions is offensive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Overturn ( or reopen for new close -- but given the 9 days without comment between the last vote and the NAC close I don't think a full relist is necessary ) While the time between the previous RM and this one was on the short side, a no consensus close does not normally prevent a future RM. The arguments for the move were strong and the only real comments against was a procedural request that the previous RM should have come here and an support that mentioned a personal preference in the opposite direction. However, in most cases when a no-consensus close that is over 1 month that is brought here the result is a recommendation to just open a new RM. For Ajax's comment to be taken as an oppose it would be similar to taking my !vote here as an endorse because I wish the Misplaced Pages used title-case for page names and section headers assuming the software changes were made to allow lower case links from the bodies to work without redirects. PaleAqua (talk) 08:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Overturn (or reopen) per User:PaleAqua. I supported the move but muddied the waters by mentioning that I personally oppose such moves. In this case, my personal opinion had no basis in policy, precedent, expediency, consistency, or any other relevant principle. It was WP:IDONTLIKEIT and I shouldn't have mentioned it. I sincerely support the move as the nominator and supporters in the first and the second RM had a preponderance of support and sounder arguments. User:SmokeyJoe has a point about following and RM with another but, in this case, it happened and the result was additional support for a move. The nominator has followed correct procedure to a T and his/her arguments were resoundingly affirmed by other users and yet somehow s/he can't catch a break. —  AjaxSmack  01:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
That's fair. I interpreted your comment as carrying some of the weight from the opposing rationales in the previous RM, so thanks for the clarification. Given this, I am more than happy to overturn my close as consensus to move. Sunrise (talk) 02:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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