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Revision as of 20:26, 5 March 2015 editJohn Carter (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users176,670 edits →Regarding Tgeairn's latest comments: comment← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:26, 5 March 2015 edit undoAstynax (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,921 edits →Request concerning Tgeairn: a bit more regarding Afd activityNext edit →
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	*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}} and {{u\|Cailil}}: I am unsure why you have continued to speculate about the emails here, when it might be more productive to ask a functionary about the matter. The evidence for COI is beyond reasonable doubt. That this COI is known to others is confirmed by Tgeairn's acknowledgement of "combinations of accurate and inaccurate personal information in conjunction with my Misplaced Pages identity" to Callanecc. That would have had to have come from other quarters, unless Tgeairn had somehow been made aware of my first email to functionaries. But as the matter was independently discovered by at least 2 editors here (aside from myself), Tgeairn was more likely aware that the cat was out of the bag off-Wiki, though his denials have continued here. Until after filing this case, I had no knowledge that my first message regarding COI had not been distributed to the list. I sent a second message containing updated information and asked for confirmation that it had been received, and only at that point received a response that the first message had been held up somehow and was being released to the list along with the updated second message. I initiated this case under the assumption that no action had yet been taken because a formal complaint had yet to be filed regarding Tgeairn's misbehavior in a) repeatedly and categorically denying that any COI whatsoever exists, b) continuing to misrepresent sources and what they have said in activity attributable to the COI, and c) blanking and editing based in COI advocacy. The speculation that this filing is some sort of tit-for-tat revenge in response to another editor's (certainly not Tgeairn) recent filing that went absolutely nowhere, is unwarranted and insulting. I hope that those with access to the fuller story will come to a decision, and will respond to them should they require further information. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)		*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}} and {{u\|Cailil}}: I am unsure why you have continued to speculate about the emails here, when it might be more productive to ask a functionary about the matter. The evidence for COI is beyond reasonable doubt. That this COI is known to others is confirmed by Tgeairn's acknowledgement of "combinations of accurate and inaccurate personal information in conjunction with my Misplaced Pages identity" to Callanecc. That would have had to have come from other quarters, unless Tgeairn had somehow been made aware of my first email to functionaries. But as the matter was independently discovered by at least 2 editors here (aside from myself), Tgeairn was more likely aware that the cat was out of the bag off-Wiki, though his denials have continued here. Until after filing this case, I had no knowledge that my first message regarding COI had not been distributed to the list. I sent a second message containing updated information and asked for confirmation that it had been received, and only at that point received a response that the first message had been held up somehow and was being released to the list along with the updated second message. I initiated this case under the assumption that no action had yet been taken because a formal complaint had yet to be filed regarding Tgeairn's misbehavior in a) repeatedly and categorically denying that any COI whatsoever exists, b) continuing to misrepresent sources and what they have said in activity attributable to the COI, and c) blanking and editing based in COI advocacy. The speculation that this filing is some sort of tit-for-tat revenge in response to another editor's (certainly not Tgeairn) recent filing that went absolutely nowhere, is unwarranted and insulting. I hope that those with access to the fuller story will come to a decision, and will respond to them should they require further information. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

	*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}}: Please go through the list of diffs once again. The diffs illustrate instances of deletions/blanking of material cited to reliable sources, including highly regarded academic works, on purely trumped-up or ] grounds. This is a violation of the arbcom remedy. Tgeairn has not edited (i.e., in his activity in blanking cited material) based upon reliable sources to show that the cited material related to Landmark is invalid and should be removed. This activity following upon arbcom's decision and imposition of DS is a direct violation of the arbcom injunction to keep the basis "in reliable, independent sources" and not to "revert on sight". Detecting POV is something that would require cracking some books to look at what they say. Deleting cited statements, without a basis in reliable sources, is POV, and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" be reported. Rather than providing additional content based in reliable sources that give any alternative views, Tgeairn has simply blanked sourced statements (and sometime the references themselves) repeatedly on nothing more than his say-so, in spite of the arbcom remedy. The arbs in the case did not directly address POV as it involved content-related material. Moreover, Tgeairn has repeatedly, blatantly and categorically misrepresented his COI, his latest and more carefully parsed statement notwithstanding, which should be troubling in itself even if those with a fuller picture have yet to comment here. This filing was to provide a case upon which to act upon that information, rather than to provide details which fall under the outing restrictions. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)		*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}}: Please go through the list of diffs once again. The diffs illustrate instances of deletions/blanking of material cited to reliable sources, including highly regarded academic works, on purely trumped-up or ] grounds. This is a violation of the arbcom remedy. Tgeairn has not edited (i.e., in his activity in blanking cited material) based upon reliable sources to show that the cited material related to Landmark is invalid and should be removed. This activity following upon arbcom's decision and imposition of DS is a direct violation of the arbcom injunction to keep the basis "in reliable, independent sources" and not to "revert on sight". Detecting POV is something that would require cracking some books to look at what they say. Deleting cited statements, without a basis in reliable sources, is POV, and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" be reported. Rather than providing additional content based in reliable sources that give any alternative views, Tgeairn has simply blanked sourced statements (and sometime the references themselves) repeatedly on nothing more than his say-so, in spite of the arbcom remedy. The arbs in the case did not directly address POV as it involved content-related material. In the Afd arena, the same sort of deletions were made in Landmark-related content covered by the Landmark DS, with some of these nominations being made apparently in blatant disregard of ]. Moreover, Tgeairn has repeatedly, blatantly and categorically misrepresented his COI, his latest and more carefully parsed statement notwithstanding, which should be troubling in itself even if those with a fuller picture have yet to comment here. This filing was to provide a case upon which to act upon that information, rather than to provide details which fall under the outing restrictions. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

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Ashtul

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ashtul

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ashtul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#General_1RR_restriction :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

12:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC) revert removes paragraph
11:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC) 1RR violation -- removes a paragraph again, <24 hours after the first time

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Previous block notice for 1RR violation:
I/P topic ban: , subsequently lifted by HJ Mitchell,

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Report originally posted at AN3; moved here on suggestion by another editor.
Ashtul continues to insist (on ever more bizarre grounds) that the edit violating 1RR was okay. This does not bode well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Re Ashtul's claim not to be a POV-pusher -- since other admins have already noted that POV-pushing is exactly what is going on here, perhaps it's not necessary to specify it, but just in case: consider this edit, which adds a claim (co-existence, side-by-side) that uses a source not meeting WP:RS and another one (Y-net) that does't support the text. The POV is that the occupation is good for the Palestinians -- they don't mind it, they benefit from it economically, they work "side by side" next to Israelis in "co-existence" -- and yet the only source that supports those claims is one that quotes the head of a settlement regional council. The claim to this effect is nonetheless added without attribution, as if it were fact. This sort of editing is pervasive in this editor's contributions -- and so the claim that he is not a POV-pusher is especially troubling because it shows unwillingness to own up to what is perfectly evident. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Ashtul

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ashtul

A lot more to consider

Preemptive quick resolution

The edit in question is completely insignificant and was returned by Nishidani only due to the massive rollback he has done to other changes. Before getting into a long discussion, I asked Nishidani to comment on it which can resolve this AE request quickly with none of us wasting any additional time. Ashtul (talk) 20:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Long dirty road

I have asked Nishidani to admit the text in question should have been removed but he dodged the request claiming it is 'irrelevant'. I will demonstrate why it is and later the background for this.

The text removed has been on Misplaced Pages in some form since at least 2010, not added by Nishidani.
The text removed is completely outdated and false as Beitar Illit is by now a city and the other content is redundant due to recent addition.
The article has recently went through massive addition and needed a lot of work (9k->14k). The rewrite was done in a rush and obvious issues such as duplicate sections (History vs. History and today) were left which is where the text in question is located.
Before any of the changes took place, 100s of word of discussion were written here and on Talk:Community settlement (Israel). Nishidani was impossible to argue with , Cptnono wrote 'Regardless, have you taken a look at Ashtul's reasoning, Nishidani? I don't know enough about those details but it is intriguing enough that merely blowing off is not the best thing to do'.
The change in question was done as two series of with the first including 16 changes, all step by step so other users can follow the logic and revert a single change if they disagree. The first series took over an hour to compile (11:22, 22 February 2015‎ to 14:27, 22 February 2015 with an obvious break in between). Nishidani made a quick WP:ROLLBACK revert (kept one change and added some content) with the cheerful description Failure to read the sources or if read, misinterpreting them. Describing as WP:OR statements in the sources, etc. General incompetence. Please note, the revert in question isn't referred to neither there is't an explanation is supplied in an appropriate location, such as at the relevant talk page as demanded here. In a way, it can be called WP:Vandalism as Nishidani revert included return of WP:OR, removing new source and removal of content that seems redundant.

So to summery, this 'revert' is eliminating old content during a rewrite of an article with obvious need for love. In a duplicate section - old, false, redundant content was removed for the second time after a massive, careless revert by Nishidani.

I will publish very relevant background in a bit. Ashtul (talk) 06:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Background

I was blocked then topic banned, then blocked for breaking the topic ban then pardoned. HJ Mitchell demanded I will 'keep a respectful distance from Nishidani'.

Nishidani admittedly was aware of this requirement as he was pinged to the page. "Naturally" his instinct was to WP:HOUND me in order to get in my face and provoke me by massive edits to the two pages I recently edited, Community settlement (Israel) and Barkan Industrial Park. I know I should WP:AGF but with WP:POVPUSH statements such as 'Israeli-occupied West Bank', 'in the Occupied Territories' and elimination of my edit 'At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians coexist and work side by side in many of the factories', which was already eliminated before twice by other members of the pack Nomoskedasticity and Huldra, it has diminished (I'll touch on the pack practice later).

Nishidani has since apologized and admitted for possible wrongdoing (20:26, 23 February 2015), which was after the original WarEdit complaint was filed by Nomoskedasticity (14:09, 23 February 2015). Yet, it didn't occur to him to ask Nomoskedasticity to drop this complaint.

Now I want to explain 'The Pack' which I've mentioned earlier. It is quite a fascinating phenomenon to see users Nomoskedasticity, Huldra, Nishidani and Zero0000 keep on popping on the same pages, reverting the same content. It seems like a great system that prevents anyone for making a case for a WP:WAR Examples can be found here, here, here (around 21:38, 17 January 2015), here (around 19:29, 18 January 2015‎), and here. I am not sure if I'll go as far as blaming them for active WP:Canvassing, but it happened enough times around me to shows a pattern.

Another claim of WP:WAR was raised by Nishidani for Karmei Tzur. It is completely bogus and part of this witch-hunt. I have deleted three stories that I thought weren't notable enough. A claim for POVPUSH will be completely false as one of them was about stone throwing where nobody died. I've then realized an image was related to one of those and thus deleted it as well. Nableezy disagree over the importance of two of the stories and returned them along with the picture. The only issue is, the picture is related to the story he chose to leave out. I haven't noticed it at first, but once I did, I removed it. I have asked Nableezy to comment on this matter.

I think at this point I have wrote everything I have about why the revert in question (and the one second one) weren't WP:WAR, WP:1RR but rather the duty of an editor to correction of a mistake done by the previous revert where opposition is unlikely.

If this isn't enough of an explanation maybe Nishidani is right and I have notable problems. Since my topic ban was lifted I opened an RfD (which concluded with consensus in a few days and effected tens of articles) and RfC (so far, the two answers support my position - 'rampant POV-pushing and totally unacceptable') exactly to eliminate this type of conflicts.

If this does sound reasonable, I would like a mechanism to be put in place so The Pack won't gang on me again.

Cheers, Ashtul (talk) 08:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Over 36 hours after this request was submitted and the editor who actually did the changes in question, Nishidani, hasn't bother to comment though he was fully aware of it. This was a great stunt aimed to waste my time. Ashtul (talk) 12:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Nishidani for an elaborate response. Some of these are legitimate content conflicts or correction of bad judgement of another editor. Yet, you haven't touched on the 'revert' in question in which the content was redundant, outdated and in duplicate section (History vs. History and today) due to your new contribution. You should have removed it yourself after the rollback. To go after me b/c of it with AE complaint is #@$%*&#%@#$ and bad faith!!! Ashtul (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It all comes down to a simple question, Nishidani, Do you think the material in the revert should have been removed? or was it your mistake (or simple lack of attention) putting it back in?. The revert was not WP:WAR or anything even close to that.

Karmei Tzur isn't even 1RR not to mention once again remove a picture which referred to text that was left out by the reverting editor. Nableezy seems to be on wikibreak but I have no doubt he would confirm it. Ashtul (talk) 12:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Response to Nishidani complaint about my allegations

I have wrote on your page within hours of this request, asking you to admit the material should have been removed. You went in circles and wouldn't do it because this of course will dissolve this whole request. All was left was to tell the full story.

Let me ask you again, should the material removed be included in the article? Ashtul (talk) 12:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Regarding 'Ofra-Likud' edits - whoever read the text understand the Likud government helped Ofra in 1975 but this is impossible since Likud won elections only in 1977. This is beyond dispute.

What I said in length on HJ Mitchell talk page was that the sources you have chosen to work with will be confusing b/c CS and WBS are two different animals even if they have a lot of historical and current relations between them. The sources you introduced talk mainly about WBS and touch on CS in a way that even myself, as an Israeli would probably have issue distinguishing when they are talking about what. Thus the removal of your sentence was justified and not POVPUSH not to mention I wrote it myself once there was a clear source that stated it.

About Galilee and Palestinian state -

Lets start with the fact you didn't put a source next to it before I took it all out..
The 3 sources you write about proves my previous point - you (or the source) aren't clear of WBS vs CS. Obviously he speaks of WBS as CS exist also in Galilee which the int'l community doesn't see as future Palestinian state.

You claim I wrote the grabbed sentence "monitoring may have a particular shared ideology, religious perspective, or desired lifestyle which they wish to perpetuate by accepting only like-minded individuals" but in fact it was you. I merely deleted the statement before.

So to sum this up, in a click of a button you rolled back 16 changes I have made. The one in the diffs for this AE request was your mistake and you don't even have the decency to say it out loud and lets us all put this ridicules waste of time behind us. Ashtul (talk) 23:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Response to EdJohnston

Both revert were correction of mistaken edit by another editor. WP:3RR is part of WP:Edit warring which clearly states - "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions". Since there is no content dispute, there is no WP:WAR and thus no 1RR.

In hundreds of words by Nishidani he never argued the content belongs in the article. Not once! He know it shouldn't and this whole AE request is an attempt to eliminate an editor with different opinions. Ashtul (talk) 13:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Claims for my POVPUSH or WAR

I do have a strong POV but I don't push it. Some of my statement might need moderate work but I believe I contribute more on that field then do damage. Much work is needed on many pages.

An example for a change I've done recently is this. Two following sentences from the same source but the date is attributed only to the second part. As of September 2010, only a small minority among them is violent. - ridicules. I haven't followed who put it this way to begin with but it is an obvious POVPUSH which I have corrected.

On Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015, I have tried to bring some NPOV to the table but Nishidani wouldn't hear it. If you compare the lead to that of Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2014 you can see the lead grew from decent NPOV to a political manifesto with multiple sources criticizing Israel. Two pro-Israeli sources introduced to lead for WP:DUE were removed by Nishidani b/c "(3) removed false and unnecessary lead tags". I have asked him about items on the list that doesn't fit the category at Talk:Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015#Confiscation notice but over a week later he didn't even bother answering. A great source by Shin Bet I introduced with talk page entry was move to the very end of the monthly lead stating "This is a useful source and I will use it on a monthly basis. However unlike every other source, it has no details" but a simple look shows the first part is by no-name group that provides even less details then my source, not to mention, detainees aren't covered by the definition in the lead.

Blaming me for POV discrepancy when Nishidani is in the picture is nonsense. I didn't go to war over those b/c he took control over those pages and won't hear anything from new editors. On Skunk (weapon) he would resist any change until Cptnono just chopped of one third of the article. His rollback on CS is exactly the same behavior. He didn't even go through all the changes to check whether they should stay in or not. Returning the part on which we all spending our precious time here can be considered unintentional WP:VANDALISM but in hundreds of word and 2 days Nishidani didn't even stated once that he disagree with my action of removing it and as I stated before, I can't see how 1RR rule can be applied when there is no WP:Content dispute. Ashtul (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Let look at an RfC on a content conflict lasting over a month now between me and yourself, Nishidani and Nomoskedasticity on Carmel, Har Hebron. The 4 replies as for now support my position and here are parts of them -

Those editors who argue in favor of it because it shows a contrast between Carmel and the ruins are actually arguing that we should push some POV with this image.
is rampant POV-pushing and totally unacceptable
the tangential POV laden picture does not belong in this article as outlined above
that does not belong in an encyclopedia

As per PMW, there are 7 results about them. This one list major media outlets which use their translations. Even the one you pointed at concluse if it used by 3rd RS it is OK, which I provided. This isn't even an opinion piece but a translation. If there is any doubts about that, please prove it. The fact they choose to translate pro-Israeli material doesn't make them unreliable. To top this all, I actually contacted them after I couldn't find the original and I added the link they send me as well. Then I invited you to question this on WP:RSN.

So let's sum this up, while 4 editors used some strong language on your editing on Carmel, I facilitated a conversation, provided a source, a 3rd party unarguably RS and the original in arabic then invited you to use WP:RSN. You really got some Chutzpah. Ashtul (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston:,@Cailil: and @Callanecc:, please note my comment above. Ashtul (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

A lot more to consider

4 days after...

No editor made a claim that a content dispute exist. Without it, there is no WP:WAR thus 1RR doesn't apply. Ashtul (talk) 22:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: I'm on my iPad so copy-pastie is torturous but I invite you to check 1RR,3RR and WAR ( they are all on the same page). It is all about content dispute. I didn't make the rules. And it is pathetic for The Pack trying to eliminate me b/c of a massive, partially unjustified rollback of a member. Ashtul (talk) 22:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: this is very convenient. You forgot the sentence that leads to it. Editors who engage in edit warring are liable to be blocked from editing to prevent further disruption. While any edit warring may lead to sanctions, Ashtul (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: That isn't what wp:3RR says. You wrote earlier I didn't discuss other changes but I did here. So I can't be blamed for not trying to sort it out. So much was written about the difference between WBS and CS including a sketch I made and uploaded. I was extremely forth coming!!! The 'revert' in question wasn't discussed as one doesn't have to be rocket scientist to figure it doesn't belong and Nishidani was at faults for putting it back. He doesn't argue differently. Ashtul (talk) 23:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I have requested HJ Mitchell who placed the previous topic ban and block to comment on this case. Please wait for his feedback. Thanks, Ashtul (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

A final word

I was confused all along as for why Nomoskedasticity went for a 'revert' which was not part of any content conflict as I have made total of over 20 edit in two series and how come I mixed up the time. It finally came to me -

I worked on the article in two sessions. The first until 12:00 where I have made numerous changes to the content Nishidani added and a second session from 14:01 none of which was sections Nishidani wrote. In between I edited several other articles (TaxiBot, ‎Palestinian stone-throwing, Bil'in, Misplaced Pages:Third opinion). There are more then 24 hours between the edits I have made on Nishidani's edits and the revert in question is material that Nishidani doesn't even claim is content dispute, basically admitting him putting in back in place was a mistake. I truly believe I have done everything to keep the rules. Nomoskedasticity have filed the 3RR request within 1 hour of this uncontested 2nd revert and posted on my request to HJ Mitchell in a short time as well. Obviously he is trying to eliminate me as an editor. This isn't just WP:Hound, I think for this a new policy need to be call WP:hunt. Ashtul (talk) 09:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

OMG, WP:HUNT actually exist. "A witchhunt is an action taken by a Misplaced Pages editor to find fault or violations in another editor when it is not already obvious that such has occurred". I think this is more than enough to dismiss this as Nomoskedasticity is obviously after me, sorted through dozens of edits in which he wasn't involved and immediately filed a request as if he just won the lottery. Ashtul (talk) 10:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston:,@Cailil: and @Callanecc:, HJ Mitchell have decided to sit this one out so I guess it is time for your decision. I have hidden much of the conversation and left the main points which are -

I have waited 24 hours between my edits on Nishidani's work.
I'm NOT POVPUSHer.
Nomoskedasticity timing is clearly WP:HUNT and the 'revert' in question isn't 'already obvious that such has occurred' but required digging and hairsplitting. (This is how an obvious one looks like).

I would like to ask you to refer to these points in your final decision. Thanks, Ashtul (talk) 14:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Answers to claims about my POV practices

@Nomoskedasticity:, we all introduce some more material that supports our points but at least I use language that is NPOV. You have also failed to mention there was a discussion on the talk page on the matter with another editor thinking it was in the sources. Nobody claimed the Palestinians enjoy being under Israeli ruling but that doesn't change the fact they work together with Israelis and have great working relationships. I actually worked there a few years back and know if for a fact. The source support it and if you think it is all hell, bring a source that supports that. On the same page, Nishidani's contribution included the word 'Occupied' 3 times and his section about pollution sounds as if only Palestinian villages suffers from it. Near you guys I am Mother Teresa (as Carmel article shows).

For example, I saw a new report that fits 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. As I was looking to add it I notice the number of dead reporter was wrong at 13 instead of 17, so I fixed it and provided a source as well as added the original material which I wanted to add. This is bad for my POV but it is the truth. (I guess you might say I'm a blood thirsty murderer who wanted credit for extra 4 reporters).

If anything there is a lot of cleaning required. This edit for example fixed a case where 'As of September 2010' was attributed only to 'only a small minority among them is violent' but not to 'Many settlers desperately want to be regarded as part of the Israeli mainstream' even thou they are from the same source. Whoever wrote this has an advanced degree in POVPUSH engineering. Ashtul (talk) 17:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

You have guts. I will give you that. You write about POVPUSH and immediately delete Druker recanting b/c 'this is an opinion article'. It is his opinion about what he said earlier. Incredible!!! Ashtul (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: LOL. You lecture me. Those are two attempts of bringing wiki to NPOV. "and deserve to be" is in the source and attribution of the fact most settlers are law-abiding citizens is ridicules but instead of getting into a fight over attributing or not, I added a few names. I guess you think most settlers are rapists. I even added before While settlements are illegal according to international law... so it is clear we aren't talking about the conflict but about regular law. In my book this is exemplary NPOV!

My favorite fixing of your POVPUSH is this. You change Israel Maintains into Israel sought to justify. 'Maintains' is NPOV. 'Sought to justify' is POVPUSH as would be 'praises itself' (to the other direction). I wrote in length before about Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015 and the political manifesto you made the lead into. Ashtul (talk) 20:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I'm afraid we're pass the point of acting as if any WP:AGF exist between us. First you need to admit this is WP:HUNT over a revert of yours, part of which (the part this request is about) was a mistake, then apologize for various beautiful comments such as While I am convinced Ashtul has notable problems, blaming me of 'totally garbled English' over a contribution you have made (on this request) or writing about me 'General incompetence'. The list can go on... You have treated me without a shred of respect for a very long time. Talking about 'approach to fellow editors' is pathetic.

As per your question about the B'tselem stats, I haven't change the numbers so why are you asking me about it?

About Barkan, I didn't oppose attribution but the tag which is false. And how does the 'labour unions report' contradicts them working peacefully together? Are we living a world of black and white? Do you have any RS to claim differently? This is absurd!

And now that I answered your questions would you do me the honor and answer the YES/NO question that is hanging over this request - Was your revert partially mistaken? Should you have left the part about Beitar Illit out? Ashtul (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

500 words

Nishidani's statement in 500 words summery doesn't include one word about the revert in question. Why? B/C there is no case.

Nomoskedasticity wrote about Barkan but prior to introducing 'Demotix' I searched for it and it has currently 186 results thus seems as RS. Just to be safe, I later added an ha'aretz source. Both Haaretz and Ynet speak about good working relationships "They work shoulder to shoulder with Israelis. If you don't like this one word, why remove the whole paragraph? It seems as if Palestinians daily suffering is NPOV and well being is POVPUSHING. Why?

On his first edit to Community settlement (Israel) Nishidani's edit summary reads - This is all undocumented. So let's source it.. But when I did work on it...
After thousand of word of back and forth I worked on the article in two sessions. The first until 12:00 where I have made numerous changes to the content Nishidani added and a second session from 14:01 none of which was sections Nishidani wrote. In between I edited several other articles. I have waited 24 hours between my edits on Nishidani's work. It came after a lengthy conversation here.
Nishidani gave it so little thought before rolling back over a dozen edits (with no proper explanation as required), he left one transfer of content and reverted the rest of changes including reintroducing duplicate section (History vs. History and today), outdated/false information and a new source introduced.
In over a week, Nishidani didn't claim once there is a dispute content which is basically admitting rolling back the content into the article was a mistake. To then go after me for it is not only childish but dishonest.
This a typical WP:Witchhunt (A witchhunt is an action taken by a Misplaced Pages editor to find fault or violations in another editor when it is not already obvious that such has occurred). There was no WP:WAR, not even WP:DISPUTE and the my edits had to be studied to find the one closest to a revert (even the one found is only partial revert). Just trying to eliminate an editor with different POV.

So in one (long) sentence - Nishidani is fully aware part of his revert was wrong on an article that needed a lot of work but he wants me gone so bad he will WP:HUNT me with a policy which came to prevent WP:WAR when not even WP:Content dispute exist but only a faulty WP:ROLLBACK. Ashtul (talk) 08:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Response to Nishidani

Nishidani Blaming anyone of POVPUSHing is a Chutzpah. I will reiterate my favorite one - He edited this which I brought back to NPOV here. He changed Israel Maintains into Israel sought to justify. 'Maintains' is NPOV. 'Sought to justify' is POVPUSH as would be 'praises itself' (to the other direction).
He writes two editors of long experience have questioned... but when asked about it the response was The problem is that it is a "premium" article from Haaretz: unless you subscribe (which I don´t) you cannot see the whole article. Seriously???
Any why remove the whole statement? WHY? Haaretz is RS and it says "people are working side by side". Why would experienced editors remove this? TWICE???

Thank you for allowing me to highlight the fact I'm not in the wrong here! Ashtul (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by EvergreenFir

As I said over at the AN3 report in response to the user saying their timezone settings made them inadvertently revert before the 24 hours were up, the user appears to be waiting for the restriction window to end. They did so without discussing the edits in the meantime. It's gaming to just wait for the instant the 24 hours are up. To quote WP:3RR for the sake of the user, not the reviewing admins: Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ashtul: 1RR always applies, even if the revert was on a different topic, it's still a revert. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ashtul: The Pack? Anyway, WP:3RR is clear that it does not need to be about a content dispute. To quote: There is a bright line known as the three-revert rule (3RR). A revert means undoing the actions of other editors. The 3RR says an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit wars are over content disputes. 3RR is a bright line regardless of the natures of the edits. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:45, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ashtul: The 3RR is independent of edit warring. I myself found this out the hard way. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement by IjonTichyIjonTichy

It seems Ashtul has learned almost nothing from his blocks and topic ban, and is repeating the same behaviors that led to the blocks and ban. He is gaming the system and editing in a highly partisan way. He appears to have made an effort to familiarize himself to some modest extent with the letter of WP policies, but his understanding, and more importantly his acceptance, of the spirit of the policies are very poor. He still does not understand or accept the culture of WP. He still does not have a clue. Ashtul's disruptive editing significantly reduces the work output of productive editors.

Thanks and regards, IjonTichy (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I do not believe an interaction ban is a good option. To Ashtul's credit, it seems he has made a few edits that are neutral. But regretfully most of his contributions are not neutral. Ashtul appears to (not always, but almost always) edit in a highly partisan fashion, and exhibits battleground behavior. He seems to behave as if Misplaced Pages is an ideological war zone, and as Nishidani has shown (in two specific examples out of many) Ashtul has twisted, slanted and warped citations from reliable sources in order to serve Ashtul's own ideological bias. We all have personal biases but most of us are able to set-aside our biases most of the time and edit neutrally based strictly on what reliable sources say. In contrast, Asthul does not yet appear capable of setting aside his biases and thus he is not yet able to edit neutrally - his own ideology is far too powerful to allow him to accept the evidence provided by, and the views expressed in, reliable sources which strongly disagree with Ashtul's personal point of view. IjonTichy (talk) 11:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Nishidani

Ashtul, while depicting me as some hounding monster, part of a hunting pack of POV pushers (the sprawling defamatory screed above after my attempts to keep this polite violates WP:AGF), insists I renege on my undertaking not to comment here. All I can see is any comment I might make being an occasion for a massive expansion of erratic counter-charges. Of the huge wall of text and embedded charges above I'll give but one example of how unreliable his reportage is.

Nishidani made a quick WP:ROLLBACK revert(kept one change and added some content)

What did I do in that innocuous edit?

(1)I retained an important item Ashtul had added.
(2) Resupplied a source for a passage that read:

also in the Galilee as part of the aim of establishing a 'demographic balance' between Jews and Arabs, and thwarting the development of a Palestinian state.

This had been removed by Ashtul with the edit summary: 'Removed WP:OR statement in the lead which is WP:EXCEPTIONAL)' These are both spurious. I introduced 4 academic sources, three of which say this in various ways:

(a)Weizman pp.81-82,pp.120-124, immediately before his specific section on 'community settlements' writes of a double planning policy to incentivate massive settlement in order to normalize the occupation and make it permanent, while ‘placing every conceivable obstacle.. in front of Palestinians attempting to develop their lands’.

(b)Farsakh p.50 wrote:‘The growth of settlements . .paved the way for carving up the West Bank and disrupting the territorial continuity necessary for the eventual establishment of a Palestinian state’.

(c)Efrat p.97 wrote:‘Apart from limiting the possibilities for urban and economic development through the seizure of land, the main impact on the Palestinians of the settlements in this strip is the disruption of the territorial contiguity of the Palestinian communities situated along the strip'.

That West Bank settlements, most of which are community settlements were designed to hinder a Palestinian state is known even to Blind Freddy and his dog. Ashtul won't accept that.

(3)I had first made the edit: ‘by 1989, 115 had been added'. Ashtul erased this on the pretext that:'Source say clearly the figure includes kibbutzim and moshavim which are DIFFERENT.'

That was a false edit summary (Kibbutzim and moshavim were not mentioned in that source). But I made an accommodation to his point, and reintroduced the section with more specific data and sourcing by writing:

‘by 1987 they (comminity settlements) numbered 95,(Kellerman) and two years later most of the 115 settlements established were of this kind'(Farsakh).

(4) I had written:-

The design of these principles arose out of a perceived necessity of impeding Palestinian Israelis from residing in such settlements

This was based on the source wording:

'The community settlement’ was conceived in this way to avoid the possibility that Palestinian citizens of Israel might make their homes in these settlements.' ( Eyal Weizman, Hollow Land: Israel's Architecture of Occupation. Verso Books, 2012 p.126)

Ashtul had rewritten this in the following unrecognizable terms:

and monitoring may have a particular shared ideology, religious perspective, or desired lifestyle which they wish to perpetuate by accepting only like-minded individuals.<ref name="Weizman" />

(a) This sentence is totally garbled English. 'Monitoring', cannot be a (human) subject with qualities like a shared ideology: it is a process exercised over people, etc.(b) it radically alters the source language that clearly states the community settlements exclude candidates for residency on ethnic grounds by denying Palestinian citizens of Israel their legal right to live in them, by a euphemism that makes the object of exclusion (Palestinians) into a subject for inclusion 'like-minded individuals'. Whereas the source, and my edit, state Palestinians are excluded, Ashtul twists this into a principle of inclusion, making an ethnic discrimination (against Palestinians) into an ethnic affirmation (of Jewishness). That's typical of his editing all over these articles. He makes Palestinian realities disappear in the face of sources that describe them. His edit summaries are deceptive, his reference to relevant policies incomprehensible, and his respect for the wording of highly reliable sources indifferent.Nishidani (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Ashtul. I'm not going to be dragged into an argument by you. If any admin thinks my editing is problematical, they are welcome to ask me to explain. I can't see you managing to grasp the policy and practice issues raised in explanation I have provided at numerous talk pages, including admin talk pages. So it is pointless for me to continue, other than to note you were asked by an admin not to follow me around as a condition for returning to edit, accepted not to do so, and now have immediately followed up a comment I made on an extremely obscure page (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Death of Binyamin Meisner) by giving your opinion. Nishidani (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Cptnono. I appreciate your suggestions. I think any editor who's been around the I/P area will have a list of many editors who have found them 'frustrating', not to speak of the hundreds of IP or brief stagers who enter dramatically, cause fuss, and are quickly sent off. I've never had any problems, as you can see in my record, dealing with editors who have a thorough knowledge of the rules, respect WP:RS, look to WP:NPOV and who would thoroughly disagree with me in private. I have exercised restraint from December, I think, by asking an admin (EJ) or two (HJMitchell) to have a word with Ashtul over Skunk (weapon) and other articles, and I've called on your good offices to help out twice (here and here]) at Carmel, Har Hebron. Despite my frustrations, I preferred administrative persuasion rather than recourse to sanctions for infractions (that were multiple), Ashtul is one of only two people I've reported in 9 years, and he's no where as hostile as many I've ignored. His problem is, (a) an insouciance to mastering even the elementary principles of policy and (b) a capacity to cause a major needless inflation of work for fellow-editors because of that. That is what disturbs me. I made no opposition when he asked to come back soon after a suspension; I made no report when I saw further formal infractions. I made one slip, and apologized, in editing with him.

Indeed, yesterday, when I saw Ed's suggestion, I opened this page to request a halving of the suggested sanction. When I did so, I saw his screed. On my page he was being amicable, on this page he wrote out an incomprehensible denunciation of my behavior, and saw a conspiracy afoot among other editors.

I'm still amenable to a reduction of the suggested period. I don't think an interaction ban workable, since it would mean neither he nor I could edit many I/P pages, and it would imply I am half the problem. The problem is simple: this time, he needs a serious rest from the topic, so that, editing other pages, he can learn how to edit, how not to misrepresent sources or policy. 3 months is lenient in this area, but fair. I've sat out that (imposed or self-imposed) on a few occasions, and if Ashtul is committed to working here, it's a strong enough warning to ensure that this area requires scruple in rule observance, care with precisely sourced information, and balance in perspective. Above all he has to learn that we are dealing with two realities, not one.Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Ashtul. Your additions to me are as incomprehensible as most of your edits or rewrites. I could have made a very long statement taking each of your edits to pieces. I've explained one such example. To avoid WP:TLDR, I'll give another, typical of your 'cleansing' of the text.

10:00, 22 February 2015 Edit summary Ofra is mentioned above. Likud apply to WBS not CS.)

What this removed;

The first community settlement, Ofra, being established only in 1975, and four of the first five were unauthorized.(ref=Kellerman) The reevaluation and recognition of such settlements as cooperative associations was based on the ascendancy to government of the Likud party, which seconded the rapid growth of closed exurbs in which religious nationalists played a dominant role.(ref=Gorenberg)(ref=Kellerman)

The edit summary is absurd, since as my statistics showed, most settlements were CS, and Ofra is alluded to earlier, not discussed. You eventually 'rewrite this' as

From 1977, the Likud led government supported expansion in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and in a few years, community settlements were the most common localities in those regions

I.e. you (a) removed the documentary basis for the text's assertions or facts (b) cancelled reference the date of Ofra's foundation, where you have a WP:COI since your sisters live there (c) erased the fact that 4 of the first 5 such settlements were unauthorized, (d) removed the reference to such closed exurbs as dominated by religious nationalists and (e) in a totally ineptly phrased reworking wrote: 'community settlements were the most common localities in those regions,' confused a settlement with a locality, and worst of all, explicitly state that Israel's community settlements (115) were more common on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip than the several hundred Palestinian villages, which, in this formulation, are, again 'disappeared'.

All of your attempts to rewrite articles show this insensitivity and incompetence, and that is why I wait till your collective edits are done, and revert the damage. To take each edit seriously would mean a huge workload. You keep pestering me to explain an edit, and yet when I show edit after edit, what is wrong, you don't reply but push on.Nishidani (talk) 14:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Ashtul. This has nothing to do with a content dispute, or personal animus to get rid of someone, despite your efforts to make it into one. It is to do with the manipulation, inadveretent perhaps, but consistent, of content and sources to achieve a POV, which is what you did in both the examples I provided.Nishidani (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Igorp (a) if you can't see Weizman stating the Galilee on p.126 then I suggested you reconsult the page or an optometrist. Other than this I can't help you, unless by indicating it is the 56th word in para.1 (b) This is a lead (WP:LEDE) with summary style, and (c) you apparently haven't read the thread above, where the sources amply documenting (as the body of the text illustrates) the reasons behind community settlements, and settlements generally, are provided.

Generally, I am impressed by the amount of niggling examination of details flourished in arbitration as opposed to the disattentive negligance shown in the use of sources during the process of article drafting and talk page discussion. If people learnt to use the scrutiny they display here in the work they contribute, there would be no need for arbitration. I've said enough. This is not about me.Nishidani (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh Keerist, Igorp! If you had actually followed my editing, and looked at my last edit to the article in question, you would have known that I had based my actual edits from Weizman, also regarding the Galilee on, Eyal Weizman, Hollow Land: Israel's Architecture of Occupation, Verso Books, 2012 pp.125-130, i.e. meaning also p.126. If you look above, you will se3e I cite Weizman twice, the second time on p.126 with a bloody link. Stop this ridiculous barrel-scraping pettifogging.Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Igorp. Don't keep asking questions that I have already replied to. Nishidani (talk) 11:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Igorp. Please reread my comments. I never put anything into this encyclopedia without carefully consulting the source, often the sources, at my elbow. I repeat: the answer to your crazy speculations is already provided above. If you can't see it, drop an email to blind Freddy's dog. It stands out like dog's balls.Nishidani (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani, rather than pass to your boorish "style of communication", I only repeat here my specific question about Galilee what you have not answered below:

"I do not see there any expression similar to your and "thwarting the development of a Palestinian state" addition (at least, on p. 126, it seems to me that at 125-130 - too). Please point to a specific place if I'm wrong.
Otherwise, Ashtul was right making his 10:47, 23 February 2015: edit after his 1st such one (09:44, 22 February 2015 ) . --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)"

--Igorp_lj (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Ashtul. I've been abroad for some days. On returning the first and only edits of yours I looked because they were on a bookmarked page (Israeli settler violence) are all disputable, beginning with justificatory editorializing. This is an egregious example of POV pushing for example

like this, where you are grossly violating NPOV by having the text assert as a fact that Israeli settlers deserve(d)(sic) to be part of the Israeli mainstream (apart from the poor English) is this

where you consolidate the received text,

According to B'Tselem 49 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2010 is settler-related. (Statistics source =B'Tselem)

To obtain the run on line

The majority of them (sic) is (sic) settler-related as a significant portion of the dead were killed while attempting to infiltrate settlements or attacking Israelis. (Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories, 29.9.2000 - 31.7.2010 source=B'Tselem}

Apart from the ineptness endorsement of the use of significant portion as a gloss on 'majority,' and the incoherent grammar, the first link is not specific, and the second for me does not load the names. Did you check the sources for this statement? The statistics 2000-2008, in any case, give 45, not 49 (4 more deaths presumably in two years), and do not bear out the gloss that has been added, in so far as it is grammatically comprehensible.

Can you show us where in those links that change of text, attributed to B’tselem is warranted? Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

'I guess you (think) think most settlers are rapists'. Again, if you have this approach to fellow editors, you are frankly in the wrong area of the internet. Nishidani (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

'I guess you think most settlers are rapists'. Again, if you have this approach to fellow editors, you are frankly in the wrong area of the internet. Nishidani (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Your reply illustrates the problem. I asked you two questions: you reply 'LOL' and then ignore policy by (a) defending the presentation of a POV as an objective fact, and (b) ignoring the second request.

The second request highlights the strong probability that you rewrite texts, many of which are defective, without clicking on the putative sources to ascertain whether what you rewrite is source- based or not. The first link fails verification, since it is a generic page with no mention of the data, as does the second, which offers a prospect of a list, but for me, that list does not appear. As far as I can ascertain (I went through the statistics from 2000-2008) 23 of the 45 settlers killings were of unarmed Palestinians. Whoever wrote that text did a piece of WP:OR and attributed it to B'tselem, which then your rewrite endorsed. If that represents the same proportions in the unaccessed data for 2000-2010, then you readjustment is deceptive in pleading a cause, rather than simply presenting the reader with facts. Thirdly, it is apparent from another declaration here that you do not understand NPOV. Worse, editors who encounter just one edit like that, are, if they are careful in their work here, forced to waste 45 minutes searching for the appropriate data not yet available from the page, analyzing it, and then figuring out whether the assumption made is correct or not. 45 minutes of close labour told me it wasn't. In that time you can make a dozen edits. I for one, can't keep up.

I tried to show how you were presenting on wikipedia a single statement by an interested party, the head of the settler council, saying Palestinians and Israelis work in peaceful coexistence, as if it were a statement of the reality, rather than, an opinion. Extensive negotiations followed, which failed to drive home this elementary Misplaced Pages policy. That is an opinion, the (legitimate) POV of settlers. Why couldn’t you see this when it contradicts what Israeli labour unions report, which I have duly cited?

As far as I can detect, the reason is in what you now state in remarking Nobody claimed the Palestinians enjoy being under Israeli ruling but that doesn't change the fact they work together with Israelis and have great working relationships. I actually worked there a few years back and know if (sic) for a fact.

The massive sprawl of walls of texts with 3 months of grievance and countercharges, quickly hatted, has made this discussion impossible to read. Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

________________________________________ Refactor per Stifle's request. I don't know why this is such a hard call.

Ashtul has been treatedd leniently over the months, compared to the usual rigour in here. He finally got a topic ban on 27 January. It reads:-
This restriction is of an indefinite duration, but you may request reconsideration of this topic ban after no less than three months of unproblematic editing elsewhere 22:47, 27 January 2015

A mere two days later he asked for it to be repealed
4 days later he broke the topic ban here, and (and arguably in several other edits) and was quietly counseled re his errors by one of the editors he says forms a pack hunting and hounding him
he still could not see the obvious
He did a mere 30 edits, and then 3 weeks later, not 3 months, he asked HJMitchel to lift that ban.
HJM gave him another chance, on conditions: If you agree to keep a respectful distance from Nishidani, and preferably stick to articles rather than enforcement requests etc, yes I'll lift the topic ban. I'd also suggest you're very careful about sticking to the 1RR.
His energetic editing has been challenged by several experienced long term contributors, but the focus of his defense is that I, alone, am the problem.
I'll ignore his obsession with me. He is not very careful about (among numerous other problems) IR

He cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion (two legitimate but partisan points of view are stated as facts) This was pointed out by User:Nomoskedasticity, (also here) .

Ashtul reverted Nomoskedasticity at 18:25, 17 February 2015‎.
He was in turn reverted by User:Huldra
Ashtul then reverted her at 18:32, 18 February 2015‎
He waited exactly 24 hours and 7 minutes in order to game the 1R rule. Perhaps he had followed Mitchell's advice to the letter, but not to the spirit. Waiting 7 minutes past the expiry line, when two editors of long experience have questioned your original judgement, and failing to engage them meanwhile in depth on the talk page, suggests he was gaming even that rule. He repeated the practice in the example which forms the basis of this complaint.
Even with that last revert, as User:Zero0000 pointed out, he had distorted the source in favour of his POV. One could go on for several hours documenting this, but I've hit the refactor limit, I think. In retrospect, his highly confused and confusing divagations above, ever dragging in more complaints, perhaps his return to editing within just 3 weeks of an indefinite topic ban was premature. The 30 odd edits elsewhere show no commitment to the project in general. Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If any of the mud splashed my way in these repeated assertions of poor editing, bad faith and hounding on my part is sticking and raises administrative suspicions there may be more to this than meets the careful eye, I welcome any request to clarify, here or by email. I will not reply to Ashtul's assertions because I find they skew the evidence to the point of being unrecognizable, and replies only provoke more of the same. Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (Cptnono)

Wouldn't an interaction ban be sufficient instead of a lengthy topic ban? It looks to me like Astul is trying but having a hard time working with Nish. Since no one has offered to mentor the user, maybe give the two an extended break from each other. No reverts. Maybe no talking even.

I also still believe that Nish should have been more open to Ashtul's suggestions about settlements but it is hard to collaborate when everyone is off on the wrong foot. Ashtul could bring something good to the project and separating the two like school children (or how about prize fighters) might be all that is needed. Cptnono (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: Astul doesn't appear to be a troll inserting the worst of POV. He actually appears to know what he is editing to the point that he brought up points that were surprising to those well versed in the topic area. The problem is that he has gotten worked up about another editor. I am sure I can name a dozen editors who have been frustrated (legitimately or not) at Nish before. Separate those two by not allowing them to revert each other and the problem could be solved.

Would you consider a topic ban? The severity of restrictions has increased dramatically in the last few years and he would not have faced such a lengthy ban for cussing out another editor in the past. I understand that it might be a good thing since enough is enough but a more novel approach could work better. Something like a 6 month ban strikes me as something for the worst of offenders. He hasn't even had that opportunity to screw up that bad yet while he is still making steps (as small as they might be). Is banning him good for the project or is it an easy fix to cutting out drama?Cptnono (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Cptnono, Can you please explain me where was I wrong. I start to feel like I have lost my mind and if I do not understand, indeed I should not be allowed to edit at all and be blocked indefinitely.

How can there be 1RR violation with not content dispute and WP:WAR? Nishidani doesn't argue the content belongs there. Ashtul (talk) 13:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You can't revert twice in a day. It doesn't matter that Nish didn't see talk (it looks like an edit summary was used at least). I'm not saying that was the best way to go about it but the rule was put in place to reduce the once prevalent edit wars. This may not have been an edit war but things would have been calmer if the talk page was used instead of reverting. Just don't revert twice in a day in this topic area even if it feels like no harm is being done.Cptnono (talk) 16:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

This is at best a 'partial revert'. Nishidani and I have conversed in length here (I believe ~20k out of ~30k in the thread). Then I waited for 24 hours which were miscalculated b/c of local time (I have fixed that). If there was a 1RR on anything which constituted a content dispute I would say - 'sorry, I f***ed up. Ban me indefinitely' but that isn't the case. This is not Carmel case where I made a mistake. It was a content dispute and I broke 1RR. Ashtul (talk) 18:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what it was a best. You fucked up. Man up to it and give the community an assurance that you will respect the process of using the talk page in the future. I totally agree with you that your revert was within reason. However, the process is in place to assure that things are done at a slower and more collaborative pace. Can you show us that you give a shit (I know you do) and lay out how you could have done it better? Or not. Take the 6 months and come back a better editor.Cptnono (talk) 04:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

You need to have a steep learning-curve if you are to survive editing in the Israel/Palestine area, and Ashtul is behind the curve, so to speak. Besides the 1RR violation, he inserts material from clear activist sources, without stating that it is from an activist source. Over on Barkan Industrial Park he insert material from Palestinian Media Watch. Ashtul claims here that the consensus from WP:RSN is that "There are several conversations regarding PMW with the majority concluding it is WP:RS thus I state 'consensus seems to be'." A quick search of the archives gives me this: "PMW is an Israeli organization dedicated to "exposing" the evil of the Palestinians by careful selection of material from Palestinian media. In other words, it is a political organization not a news organisation," and this. That he wants to pass off material from clear activist sources without attribution, shows to me that he still lacks a basic understanding of editing in the area. Huldra (talk) 23:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Igorp lj

Nishidani, can you please explain what RS approve this text from the head, quoted by you?

also in the Galilee as part of the aim of establishing a 'demographic balance' between Jews and Arabs, and thwarting the development of a Palestinian state.

I do not find something about Galilee in RS what you placed below your quote. --Igorp_lj (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I'd suggest not to jump to conclusions, as it has been not so long ago (:) As far as I can see nobody here insists that the disputed paragraph should be in the article. Then the 1-3RR violations' question itself is questionable too. Therefore, I'd ask someone neutral to check out other arguments against Ashtul.

Now, to the question of "persecution". Not sure that these accusations are true. Any article may be in WatchList of any party, but ... it's no secret that cooperation with Nishidani isn't easy, especially when it concerns the fact that contrary to his personal POV, which for some reason he is considered neutral. I've already mentioned his didactic tone towards beginners and other things that might just discourage anyone to desire & to do something in Wiki.

I think that a problem - isn't Ashtul, who still has the patience and desire to break through the current, not healthy situation. IMHO, it may be a perfect remedy to stop administration in those cases when parties expressed different points of view, but (!) to require from them not to add to an article any text, which wasn't previously agreed on an corresponding Talk page. I'd propose to check this decision for ~ some months' period and after it to see if / how it works.. --Igorp_lj (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani: "I suggested you reconsult the page or an optometrist", "If people learnt to use"... (17:12, 26 February 2015)

That's the pity, but this is exactly what I've wrote above about Nishidani's style of "cooperation".

Somebody wants to use the formal reasons here. Ok, I simply remind: what you mentioned above is (a)Weizman pp.81-82,pp.120-124 (Nishidani, 16:49, 25 February 2015), not p.126

"Galilee" was mentioned only once - in article's head. One may check the version before Ashtul's edit (09:44, 22 February 2015) : "Galilee" not appears in its body.

"I've said enough. This is not about me" (@Nishidani) :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 20:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani (20:47, 26 February 2015, mentioning his 13:08, 22 February 2015: "Failure to read the sources or if read, misinterpreting them. Describing as WP:OR statements in the sources, etc. General incompetence" (sic! See above about his "style) --Igorp_lj (talk)) edit)

A pity that I spent my time watching pro-Palestinian product of Weizman, but ... I do not see there any expression similar to your and "thwarting the development of a Palestinian state" addition (at least, on p. 126, it seems to me that at 125-130 - too). Please point to a specific place if I'm wrong.

Otherwise, Ashtul was right making his 10:47, 23 February 2015: edit after his 1st such one (09:44, 22 February 2015 ) . --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

* Nishidani (11:11, 27 February 2015) "Don't keep asking questions that I have already replied to."

It only means that Ashtul's was right about your wp:OR. :) --Igorp_lj (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ashtul

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

If this was a first offence it might be closed with no action. But Ashtul has been previously blocked as long as two weeks for violations related to ARBPIA. I propose a six-month topic ban from everything covered by WP:ARBPIA. EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Tend to agree with Ed here. A six month topic ban seems appropriate here--Cailil 20:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I've now gone through the edit history of Community settlement (Israel). There is a definite 1RR violation there. There's no obvious 1RR at Carmei Tzur. Ashtul has an evident POV on these matters, which he is entitled to have if he is willing to edit very carefully. I'm not seeing an adequate level of care, or enough patience in his reading of the sources. So I agree with Cailil that a six-month ban of Ashtul from the scope of ARBPIA will help assure the goal of having these articles be neutral. EdJohnston (talk) 02:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
+1 on the 6 month TBAN, the POV and refusal to follow the rules leave us with little choice really. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to sit this one out. I have mixed feelings, and I think the issue is best handled by admins who have come to it cold. I'm not sure about the 1RR violation (what edit was Ashtul's first edit reverting?), but there do seem to be other issues here as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Would the parties please refactor their statements to be within the 500-word limit? Stifle (talk) 17:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
A six month topic ban is amply justified on the basis of this evidence and past behaviour, in my view. Guy (Help!) 17:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Tgeairn

Request concerning Tgeairn

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Astynax (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:43, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Tgeairn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Landmark Worldwide#Discretionary sanctions (January 2015)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Landmark Worldwide#Parties reminded

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Tgeairn ~~apparently~~ has a serious WP:COI, possible socking incidents (according to at least one functionary) and has continued to edit/blank Landmark-related articles from a POV stance not based in sources, ignoring the Arbcom injunction to edit from sources. Tgeairn has noted that there is off-Misplaced Pages information regarding his COI, where I also encountered this information, and seemingly acknowledges that it contains at least some validity, though it has not affected his behavior in blanking referenced information at odds with Landmark advocacy. He continues to deny any COI

Blanking information cited to sources, mischaracterizing the reliability of sources and mischaracterizing what sources say, all violate both the Arbcom remedy and both the letter and spirit of WP:V and WP:OR. The rationales for blanking, etc. lie in personal POV or editor syntheses, not in sources. Apart from the Landmark Worldwide article itself, he has been running what looks like a campaign to Afd articles on people and subjects which are Landmark-related and which have offered (see diffs). His editing history at these articles has often followed a pattern of first deleting information and citations, tagging, then nominating for deletion. Finally, this Afd activity has extended to articles with a relationship to subjects which deal with new religious movements (sociology, psychiatry, etc.).

Activity at Landmark Worldwide
- 19:02, 29 January 2015: removed a peer-reviewed, academic reference on invalid grounds
- 19:54, 29 January 2015: removed on the basis that a report by a government commission was "intentionally not published" when it is published on the government's website
- 20:00, 29 January 2015: deleted citation information for an article in a peer-reviewed academic journal
- 10:57, 29 January 2015: blanked a statement backed by multiple references, using an invalid interpretation of WP:PRIMARY
- 10:52, 29 January 2015: removed a referenced statement, characterizing a reputable mainstream scholar as "Fringe"
- 18:33, 29 January 2015: removed cited information, mischaracterizing it as "original research"
- 18:59, 27 January 2015: latest in a series of disputed deletes of this statement in the lead summarizing cited material in the body

Activity at Afd on topics with a relationship to Landmark
- : Afd for Michael Langone, a highly notable psychologist and researcher in his field. Article was redirected, even though the decision had been to Keep, then restored with a Merge tag; Tgeairn has continued to blank information there.
- : Afd for Catherine Picard, French politician involved in government investigation and interviewed in reference to Landmark, Tgeairn tagged for notability, was informed of the reasons she was notable then proceeded to blank information and finally nominate for Afd regardless.
- : Afd for Mikael Rothstein], a notable academic who has written or edited works presenting est-Forum-Landmark as a single entity and tied to religion.
- : Afd for Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, a notable book which mentions est/Landmark.
- : Afd for Union nationale des associations de défense des familles et de l'individu, a notable French organization critical of Landmark.
- : Afd for Geri-Ann Galanti, an anthropologist who has been critical of Landmark.
- : Afd for Watchman Fellowship, notable organization which has been critical of est/Landmark.

~~Many other Landmark-related diffs can be provided on request, but by my count I have reached the limit here and below.~~ Per recommendations, I have a lengthy listed additional diffs illustrating the efforts of this editor in violation of the Arbcom injunction to base edits in sources here.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months,17:46, 27 January 2015 see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Tgeairn has a serious COI with regard to Landmark-related articles and, despite this, recently removed a COI notice posted by another editor. The POV editing behavior and mischaracterizations in disregard of sources are perhaps explicable by this COI. Arbitrators and clerks should already be aware of this matter, and I will supply updated details, as removal of COI information has occurred on websites immediately after this matter was first posted to them. I request that functionaries contact me privately, as I will not discuss this here due to outing policy.

As Tgeairn seems to have a serious problem objectively editing topics related to Landmark Worldwide, a topic ban may be warranted. As this same behavior has extended in several instances to topics related to the broader category of new religious movements (e.g., the egregious Afd for Margit Warburg), a ban for NRM-related topics might also be considered.

Reply to HJ Mitchell and Cailil: I am unsure why you have continued to speculate about the emails here, when it might be more productive to ask a functionary about the matter. The evidence for COI is beyond reasonable doubt. That this COI is known to others is confirmed by Tgeairn's acknowledgement of "combinations of accurate and inaccurate personal information in conjunction with my Misplaced Pages identity" to Callanecc. That would have had to have come from other quarters, unless Tgeairn had somehow been made aware of my first email to functionaries. But as the matter was independently discovered by at least 2 editors here (aside from myself), Tgeairn was more likely aware that the cat was out of the bag off-Wiki, though his denials have continued here. Until after filing this case, I had no knowledge that my first message regarding COI had not been distributed to the list. I sent a second message containing updated information and asked for confirmation that it had been received, and only at that point received a response that the first message had been held up somehow and was being released to the list along with the updated second message. I initiated this case under the assumption that no action had yet been taken because a formal complaint had yet to be filed regarding Tgeairn's misbehavior in a) repeatedly and categorically denying that any COI whatsoever exists, b) continuing to misrepresent sources and what they have said in activity attributable to the COI, and c) blanking and editing based in COI advocacy. The speculation that this filing is some sort of tit-for-tat revenge in response to another editor's (certainly not Tgeairn) recent filing that went absolutely nowhere, is unwarranted and insulting. I hope that those with access to the fuller story will come to a decision, and will respond to them should they require further information. • Astynax 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Reply to HJ Mitchell: Please go through the list of diffs once again. The diffs illustrate instances of deletions/blanking of material cited to reliable sources, including highly regarded academic works, on purely trumped-up or WP:OR grounds. This is a violation of the arbcom remedy. Tgeairn has not edited (i.e., in his activity in blanking cited material) based upon reliable sources to show that the cited material related to Landmark is invalid and should be removed. This activity following upon arbcom's decision and imposition of DS is a direct violation of the arbcom injunction to keep the basis "in reliable, independent sources" and not to "revert on sight". Detecting POV is something that would require cracking some books to look at what they say. Deleting cited statements, without a basis in reliable sources, is POV, and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" be reported. Rather than providing additional content based in reliable sources that give any alternative views, Tgeairn has simply blanked sourced statements (and sometime the references themselves) repeatedly on nothing more than his say-so, in spite of the arbcom remedy. The arbs in the case did not directly address POV as it involved content-related material. In the Afd arena, the same sort of deletions were made in Landmark-related content covered by the Landmark DS, with some of these nominations being made apparently in blatant disregard of WP:BEFORE. Moreover, Tgeairn has repeatedly, blatantly and categorically misrepresented his COI, his latest and more carefully parsed statement notwithstanding, which should be troubling in itself even if those with a fuller picture have yet to comment here. This filing was to provide a case upon which to act upon that information, rather than to provide details which fall under the outing restrictions. • Astynax 20:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: diff

Discussion concerning Tgeairn

Statement by Tgeairn

This filing is yet another in a string of bad-faith attempts to use Misplaced Pages to promote the novel theories of a small group, and to discredit attempts to note or correct that promotion. I also note that the filer has declined mediation on this content, which further demonstrates that they are not here to improve the articles in question.

The filing party is making accusations, including saying that a functionary (presumably Callanecc from the diffs provided) is in some way backing those accusations, without any supporting evidence whatsoever. Further, despite other editors recently being blocked for the exact same behaviour, the filer appears to be stating that they are a part of the off-wiki harassment that I am currently enduring. Also, the filer appears to have knowledge of material that was sent off-wiki by yet another editor and does not appear anywhere on-wiki. Either Callanecc forwarded that material to Astynax (highly unlikely), or there is some form of off-wiki collusion occurring that includes Astynax and at least one other editor. This off-wiki activity is unacceptable by any stretch of our policies. It is threatening, harassing, and a demonstration of like-minded editors acting together in disputes.

As for the diffs of my activity (and noting that there are duplicate diffs provided), I stand behind each edit with a clear edit summary and/or talk-page link that describes exactly why the edit was made. If any reviewers here have questions regarding the edits, I am happy to answer - but I believe they stand clearly by themselves.

Regarding AfD filings, most of the AfDs provided were well discussed. Some were solidly kept, some were narrowly kept, and one of the AfDs listed resulted in delete. One was withdrawn by myself once the relevant notability guideline was found, and a couple were narrow (and contested by others) closes. While I disagree with some of the arguments made and some of the results, AfD is the exact right place to resolve those issues and that is why I ultimately nominated those articles. The result was better articles and clearer consensus on the issues involved.

If it is necessary to respond to this filing with a more extensive defense, I will do so. Given that Astynax is making essentially the same unfounded arguments here that they made in their original Arbcom filing, and that the committee did not find those arguments sanctionable (nor did they even include them in the findings of fact) at that time, I doubt that much further is needed on my part.

I do not believe that I have made any edits that are sanctionable, nor has my behaviour as an editor been in any way sanctionable. I also believe that the filer has demonstrated a long-term commitment to their ideas on the subject and a repeated willingness to harass and attack others who may not agree. I appreciate Cailil's call for WP:BOOMERANG, and I respect their time and effort to review this. If necessary, I intend to prevent archival of this thread until a definitive resolution of these unfounded accusations and ongoing attacks is reached.

I respectfully await the finding here. Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding AfD nominations

Seeing that there is a continued effort to misrepresent my edit history by cherry-picking AfD nominations to list, I'll help Astynax. Here are my last 50 AfD nominations, here is my PROD log, and here is my CSD log. Reviewers here will notice that the selection provided by Astynax is a misleading sampling and yet another attempt to quell the use of appropriate venues for resolving concerns. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding John Carter's continued commentary

@John Carter: Astynax has brought this frivolous and frankly malicious filing rather than engage in collaborative editing of the articles under question, rather than dispute resolution, and rather than mediation. I am under no burden to prove anything, that rests with Astynax. I generally respect your editing, but your continued "one more thing" digs do not appear to be designed to forward the resolution here, but rather to impede it. You have already lost your sysop bit, been blocked twice in the last seven months, and are subject to a number of different editing restrictions. You might consider letting someone else fight this one. For clarity's sake, yes - I have been in communication with Arbitration committee members, Callanecc, and members of the Arbcom Audit Subcommittee regarding this matter. It is up to them whether they will weigh in here, and I would welcome their guidance. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
@John Carter: I believe that you have misremembered the AE request history here. It was me, Tgeairn, that brought an enforcement request against Theobald Tiger on 31 January. Contrary to your recollection, Callanecc said
"that there is evidence on wrong doing, specifically incivility and personal attacks (1st sentence, , , "It is crystal clear...", ), edit warring to make a point (), and edit warring generally , , , ). I'm considering whether to go with a final warning or a three month topic ban, though I have to say that this edit is pushing me towards a TBAN.

The request ended with a warning that further disruption would result in a Topic Ban. As a side note, I see that Theobald Tiger is right back to that same behaviour, so the warning didn't last very long. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Stop making personal attacks. Saying that my statement raises Dunning-Kruger effect questions is a personal attack, unless my incompetent reading of that policy is wrong too. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Astynax's additional list of diffs

I appreciate Astynax compiling this list and linking it above, it is obvious that they put a great deal of effort into it. I very strongly encourage all parties to read the list and click on the links provided. For convenience, here is the list Astynax compiled to demonstrate my "serious COI", "POV editing", sock-puppetry, misuse of sources, etc, etc. Remember, this is a cherry-picked list of my supposed worst edits. For further convenience, I'll provide a sampling here:

26 January 2015 - I remove a passage that is sourced entirely to "hometown.aol.com/carol2180" noting that it is a SPS, and I explained thoroughly on the article talk page. Astynax calls this "blanked an entire section referencing the controversial Landmark-related "The Hunger Project"." (which Landmark has nothing whatsoever to do with the Hunger project either).
30 January 2015 - I remove a reference to a paper by a grad student, where other references exist for the material already, and which was found at RSN to be insufficient for the claims made. I explained clearly on the talk page and in the edit summary why I removed it. Astynax calls this "removed a reference to a work often cited in academic literature as "unreliable"". It is unreliable, it's a paper by a grad student. The paper (as explained repeatedly at talk) is a first-person appraisal, the author is a student, the author explicitly says that she discarded sources that did not match her experience when writing it.
30 January 2015 - I remove a reference to "shambook.blogspot.com", explained in edit summary and on talk page. Astynax calls this "removal of an arguably RS online article by a journalist and author in the field of self-help programs". Note that no one ever argued for this as a RS, despite my repeated requests at the talk page.
25 February 2015 - I remove a reference to "noseweek.co.za", explained in edit summary that NoseWeek is not reliable for anything beyond the author's self-statements. Astynax says is "removal of citation information, mischaracterizing another source as non-reliable "for anything beyond their authors' self-statements"."

Obviously, the list Astynax provides is long and I could go on explaining each edit. However, instead, I encourage everyone to go to the list right now. Please, read and click on the diffs Astynax provides. If after doing so - if after reviewing this cherry-picked list of what Astynax says is evidence of COI, sockpuppetry, POV pushing, and more - if after doing that there is anyone that thinks I should be banned/blocked/sanctioned/warned/trouted/anything then please do so immediately. There is absolutely no evidence of any wrongdoing there at all. None. I can, in fact, promise a few good laughs though. In fact, I think that I could not come up with a better defense than this list. --Tgeairn (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding timing of this request

I see that John Carter and Astynax are trying to figure out who emailed who and when, and how that relates to this case. First, I don't see how it relates at all. However, there was absolutely no mention of any of this until John Carter encouraged this frivolous AR filing and Astynax replied with a complaint about no way to resolve content issues, despite having just declined to participate in mediation. There is no mention whatsoever in that dialogue about email or sending anything to arbs. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps if the timing of the emails can be sorted, John Carter, Astynax, and Manul can figure out how Manul supposedly received some kind of information from Callanecc on 26 February. Is that the goal here? Because right now, I can't figure out how Manul, Astynax, and John Carter all started referring to some email that Callanecc received, which was sent on some date by someone - all without Callanecc or anyone else having made anything about any such email public. Something is very, very fishy here. --Tgeairn (talk) 23:48, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding WP:COI

It appears that I must, again, respond to accusations of COI editing. WP:COI is a behavioural guideline. I am crystal clear about what it says. I have not edited, am not editing, and will not edit in any way whatsoever that contravenes that guideline. This has been asked and answered repeatedly (as Astynax is aware, and even linked to a couple times). This continued accusation and harassment over a period of many months must stop. That there is some off-wiki communication occurring between parties in this discussion is obvious by the timeline. That the communication is being used to hunt, gather, and share supposed off-wiki evidence of violation of an on-wiki behavioural guideline is senseless. It is stalking, bullying, hounding, whatever you want to call it. Again, this needs to stop. My editing has been seen and reviewed by admins, arbcom members, functionaries, and even members of the foundation. In NO CASE have ANY OF THEM found that I edited in a way that contravened the COI behavioural guideline (although at least one pointed out that it is a guideline, not policy). This must stop. --Tgeairn (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

In response to the enforcers below, I think it may well be worth noting that Astynax said he would supply evidence, but that as per OUTing he would prefer to not post it here, but e-mail it. I cannot fault someone for not violating policy directly but seeking to provide the relevant information privately, as he has indicated he would like to do here. I also note that some of Tgeairn's comments on his own talk page, regarding deletion of the comments, as well as similar comments by Tgeiarn and others on User:Callanecc's talk page at User talk:Callanecc#Puppetry accusation may well be relevant and that Callanecc may be able to provide more information not available publicly. Although it might have been not a bad idea to wait a few days more until Callaecc got his footing back, as it were, I don't see any real reason myself to jump to conclusions about the privileged information which is apparently available to at least some editors is somehow presented to the AE enforcers for their consideration. John Carter (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: Personally, I wouldn't in the least mind seeing all the directly related articles fully protected for a while to allow the appropriate dispute resolution processes to take place. And I would love to see this go to DRN with some sort of "code red" call for the input of as many uninvolved individuals as possible to help resolve the concerns. John Carter (talk) 17:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, I would be very interested in seeing evidence of the off-wiki harassment @Tgeairn: refers to, as it also seems at least possibly to me to be a misrepresentation of fact unless clear evidence of same is given to at least one or more of the admins involved in this request or the functionaries or someone else to review, possibly under the circumstances Callenecc. I have no information one way or another regarding what this alleged harassment is, and I don't expect Tgeairn to provide evidence of it on this site, but as it is I am not sure that his claim of harassment is any more substantive than the claims he is himself deriding. John Carter (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If we are going to consider the last two AE requests, I think it would also be reasonable to consider the first two as well. So far as I remember, in the first DaveApter raised a rather clearly nonactionable request and at the same time made clearly unsupportable personal attacks against Theobald Tiger which led to that editor at least temporarily retiring. I believe there may be some basis for considering WP:CIR regarding that matter. Also, for the purposes of information, it would be I think useful to have clear evidence as to when Astynax sent the e-mails relative to when he posted here. I don't know that I have seen that to date. Taking into account the activity of some of the previous AE's, I think it might not be unreasonable to offer final warnings rather broadly, with perhaps use of the COI template regarding any editors who may be seen to reasonably be described as having such, and trying to drag in as many outsiders as possible. I have dropped a message at the talk page of WikiProject Religion asking for as much additional input from as many people as possible, and if anyone can think of any other projects which might have enough activity and topically relevant sources to get similar messages, please feel free to let me know or add them yourselves. John Carter (talk) 19:50, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Astynax has indicated here that he first sent the e-mail to the list a month ago, without any apparent response. It seems to be the lack of any response which seems to have been at least in part the filing of this more visible request, given the failure of any action or response there. Frustration with both likely COI editors who may not unreasonably be seen as regularly engaging in edits which in some way promote their POV, and few if any which do not, as well as with a administrative system which apparently has failed rather dramatically in this instance, is also something I think could and should reasonably be taken into account. With this information, I would have to assume that any complaints or actions regarding Astynax's personal history here should take into account the fact that he has, apparently with the best of intentions and in accord with established policies and guidelines, been, more or less, left without the support he could and reasonably should expect when doing, basically, as much as he can within the system, and any actions which at this point might be perceived as being beyond the established bounds of propriety should perhaps also be seen as being at least in part due to the apparently complete failure of the system for about a month now. John Carter (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe it very reasonable to point out that Tgeairn's most recent comment seems to once again raise serious Dunning-Kruger effect questions regarding his seemingly absolute conviction that in some way he has a better grasp of policies and guidelines than Astyanx, who, unlike Tgeairn, has raised so far as I can tell 16 articles to FA status and 13 to GA status. So far as I can tell, Tgeairn himself has been involved in the development of no content which has ever received any sort of particular recognition. But, apparently, he doesn't let his own at best poorly demonstrated grasp of relevant content policies and guidelines interfere with his pontificating to others who have a much better record in developing content about the relevant policies and guidelines. Although I realize relative WP:CIR questions are not necessarily anything which can be dealt with effectively in AE, I think it is perhaps a serious issue in this matter anyway. John Carter (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Tgeairn's latest comments

@Tgeairn: might perhaps be interested in reading the comments of the admins below in their section. The fact that he apparently hasn't continues in my eyes to raise perhaps serious questions regarding his ability to contribute in a knowledgeable and productive way in this matter. Caili has specifically said below that he thought the e-mail was sent "after" the request here was filed. As Astynax has pointed out, the e-mail was sent a month ago, and that there has apparently been neither response or even acknowledgement of it in that time. While I acknowledge that perhaps Tgeairn might be less interested in the comments of the closing admins here than in perhaps other things, I think it is both reasonable and appropriate to point out that the conclusion Cailil made in the results section, based on the evidence available to him at that time, is apparently inaccurate. I believe any reasonable person would believe that it is reasonable to advise the admins involved of all the information apparently available, particularly when they may be drawing conclusions which are at least in part based on flawed information. The fact that others may not be able to understand that is perhaps interesting on its own. John Carter (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

And I am more than a little amused that in his most recent comment TGgeairn seems to once again be attempting to draw conclusions for others, particularly in the statement that this claim is "frivolous." I wonder whether independent editors would say the same about his removal of a COI template to the talk page of Landmark Worldwide on the basis of OUTing, and his subsequent comments at Callanecc's talk page. Once again, I regret to say that I am seeing some serious issues regarding whether his grasp of policies and guidelines, or perhaps lack of same, may be a serious issue here. John Carter (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I guess the edit summary here could reasonably be applied to Tgeairn himself, considering that his comment there seems to be bringing in a number of matters completely unrelated to the previous discussion but, somehow, he is incapable of recognizing that. I honestly have no clue how Manul was told anything, and I very strongly resent what seems to me to be an implication that I would. Callenecc might, and I would presume does, know about that, but I cannot see how anyone could rationally link that editor's comments with anyone else's without evidence. Once again, I see a pattern here of attempting to raise irrelevant points perhaps in an attempt to distract from the main ones, while at the same time engaging in unsupportable insinuation. While that is, perhaps, not uncommon at AE, it does raise to my eyes serious questions regarding the motivations of individuals involved, as did DaveApter's completely unsupported apparent "declarations of fact" regarding Theobald Tiger in the first of the series of AE requests regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 23:54, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

To Closing admins: So far as I understand, it is considered a COI problem to perhaps disruptively nominate articles which have rather clearly already demonstrated notability, to remove sections of material from articles for less than sufficient reason, and to perhaps argue less than competently that material might not be suitable if one of the perhaps primary reasons is that the content in question is critical of the topic with which one has a COI. I am also thinking, among other things, of a recent comment on the Landmark talk page by Tgeairn to the effect of, "just because policy doesn't rule something out doesn't mean we have to include it," here which demonstrates to my eyes perhaps a tendency toward wiki-lawyering and other problematic behavior. Also, taken into account with the fact that there seem to be other editors who have a rather clearly established COI, in the eyes of seemingly everyone but themselves, such as DaveApter, there may also be perhaps reasonable concerns of some form of collusion and/or conspiracy and/or collective attempts to create a seriously flawed consensus. Granted, it may well not be reasonable to sanction one person alone in matters which seem to be perhaps involving more than one editor, but I don't think that it is necessarily in the best interests of the project to not try to actively do something to prevent or limit the impact of such cooperative POV pushing. Some of his more recent comments on that page, which seem to my mind to rather slanderously accuse others of "edit warring" against consensus, also seem to my eyes to be seriously problematic behavior. John Carter (talk) 19:35, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe this edit by Tgeairn above, in which he says my indicating that I think he indicates he thinks much more about his own level of knowledge than is necessarily shown by the evidence is somehow a personal attack, may well itself show (1) that his understanding of NPA may be as flawed as his knowledge of several other policies and guidelines, such as OUTing, which has already been mentioned, and (2) that, for whatever reason, he seems to be extremely sensitive to any degree of criticism. I do not think any reasonable person could say that "raises serious ... questions" in any way necessarily indicates that it achieves answers. I believe this extreme level of sensitivity to anything remotely less than laudatory from others, and the unsupportable, almost dogmatic, statements regarding what he has a "right" to, as with his demands for reverse deletion on the basis of alleged OUTing, cannot help keep preexisting concerns regarding WP:CIR alive. John Carter (talk) 20:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by DaveApter

This is just the latest in a sequence of attempts by Astynax to abuse Misplaced Pages's disciplinary processes to gain leverage in what is essentially a content dispute. This had been going on since last September when Astynax filed a frivolous Request for Arbitration in a move to try to silence three editors who did not share his viewpoint (and none of whom were sanctioned). The appropriate mechanism is Mediation, which Astynax refused to engage with. I cannot see anything tendentious in the diffs above. The allegation of sockpuppetry was rejected for lack of evidence by the Checkuser DaveApter (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Note by Thryduulf

This is just to confirm that Astynax has sent an email to the functionaries list regarding this enforcement request. I personally haven't got time to read it (or the evidence presented on this thread) so I offer no comments on its contents. Thryduulf (talk) 21:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Tgeairn

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

No comment re: this case yet. However this recently archived case is relevant since it was ~~filed by Tgeairn~~ about Astynax in this topic area, and Tgeairn was one of 3 editors arguing for Astynax being sanctioned--Cailil 12:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
- Ok having taken a moment to review the "evidence" here I'm calling WP:BOOMERANG on this. The last request was ridiculous and this is worse. Claiming someone has "possibly" a COI or a past of socking without evidence is casting unfounded aspersions. References to offsite outing is not a good idea. If and only if there is substance to the COI then evidence of that should be conveyed to an Arbitrator in private, not bandied about as fact on AE or other community fora. Furthermore this looks to me like a revenge filing (given the farce that was the above case) and I'm beginning to think the topic would be best served with all the most heavily involved editors in these two filings indefinitely topic banned rather than wasting the rest of the community's time on their personal battles and agendas. The fact that one side is misbehaving (or is possibly misbehaving) does not give licence to the other side to disrupt this site to make a point. I'd like to see more sysops commenting here before commenting further but I take cognizance of John Carter's points in the last case--Cailil 12:20, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree. Repeated repetition of statement does not increase its accuracy. The only evidence cited of a COI is Tgeairn's repeated and strenuous denials. Frankly, this looks like an attempt to remove an opponent from a content dispute. I'm not at all convinced by the evidence presented. I see a legitimate content dispute in which Tgeairn is using clear edit summaries and taking issues to the talk page. The AfD nominations are not problematic—I see no evidence that Tgeairn has not accepted the outcomes, some of the articles were kept only narrowly (in which case it's not inappropriate to think about merging/redirecting), one was closed as delete, and Tgeairn withdrew one himself when he realised he'd made a mistake. In none of them does he argue with opposing editors nor continue a debate long past its usefulness because he didn't get his way, as one would expect of a tendentious editor. I would, though, like to hear from Callanecc, who seems to be more familiar with this dispute. I'll also repeat my suggestion from the last AE thread of a lengthy spell of full protection to force warring parties to gain consensus in advance for their edits. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I've seen some evidence which indicates that Tgeairn has an offwiki COI however I've not seen evidence of a ToU violation (paid editing) nor have I seen onwiki evidence (especially in light of HJ's comment above) that the COI is problematic. I've also seen some evidence that Tgeairn has made similar edits to an IP. Also just noting that an email was sent to the functionaries mailing list with some content and evidence regarding Tgeairn.

I agree that lengthy full protection might be the best option to force those involved to discuss. I think preferable to topic banning a bunch of users, though I'd have no objections to final warnings being issued so that there is a lower bar for issues in the future. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Callanecc and HJM on most their points above but my problem here is the double jeopardy approach to filing a VERY vague AE request and then using the email. Doing so makes private confidential proceedings public BEFORE any issue has been determined (i.e prejudice) and smacks of mud slinging. I'm rarely inclined to "kick the can down the road" with disputes that have wasted other people's time to this degree. Full protection is fine as a temporary measure but does not address the behavioural issues not related to article editing. This looks personal to me (as did the last AE filing) and that kind of belligerence needs to be stopped. So to my mind unless there is strong (iron clad) evidence of COI and povpushing, I would maintain that Boomerang applies here and a reasonable analysis of the 2 recent AE filings relating to the RFAR Landmark (neither of which ended with anything more than a warning) should be done to assess the cost/benefit to the project of leaving editors who are abusing AE and the RFAR to win content disputes--Cailil 12:12, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you. Filing a vexatious AE request and using it to cast aspersions against an opponent is abhorrent. It's the sort of dirty trick we've just about stamped out (after many years) in the Israel-Palestine topic area. Even assuming that Tgeairn has a serious conflict of interest, his edits do not appear to me to be those of a POV pusher or a tendentious editor (and we deal with plenty of those on this board). I'm proposing the full protection in addition to any sanctions we might want to consider against Asyntax. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:15, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Just noting re: emails above. It would have been helpful if Astynax had stated here at AE that a first email was sent to the functionaries list a month ago. However, in the statement John links to it is very unclear about that first email. It remains that this request was opened simultaneously with sending that (second) email (the one that got distributed to the list), and so to my mind it's still "double insurance" or "double jeopardy" territory. I'd advise all parties above to disengage and await feedback from teh Arbs re: the substance of Astynax's emails--Cailil 10:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
@Astynax: You've missed the point. Having a conflict of interest (assuming you're correct for the sake of argument) is not against policy. More to the point, I have no interest, less than no interest in fact, in what Tgeairn does in real life or elsewhere on the Internet provided his edits abide by the letter and spirit of policy. It is my assessment and Cailil's that they do, and Callanecc (who has presumably read whatever you've sent to the functionaries list) has stated that he does not believe the COI to be problematic, especially in the light of my assessment of the diffs you've provided. Ad it's the edits that matter. Even if you provided cast iron evidence that Landmark Worldwide wee hanging Tgeairn upside down by his toenails to get him to make these edits, I still can't imagine that I'd find them to be problematic. All this talk of COI completely misses the point: if somebody is pushing a POV, they can be deal with for that, COI or no COI, paid or unpaid; if they're not, there's no need to take any action. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:26, 5 March 2015 editJohn Carter (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users176,670 edits →Regarding Tgeairn's latest comments: comment← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:26, 5 March 2015 edit undoAstynax (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,921 edits →Request concerning Tgeairn: a bit more regarding Afd activityNext edit →
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	*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}} and {{u\|Cailil}}: I am unsure why you have continued to speculate about the emails here, when it might be more productive to ask a functionary about the matter. The evidence for COI is beyond reasonable doubt. That this COI is known to others is confirmed by Tgeairn's acknowledgement of "combinations of accurate and inaccurate personal information in conjunction with my Misplaced Pages identity" to Callanecc. That would have had to have come from other quarters, unless Tgeairn had somehow been made aware of my first email to functionaries. But as the matter was independently discovered by at least 2 editors here (aside from myself), Tgeairn was more likely aware that the cat was out of the bag off-Wiki, though his denials have continued here. Until after filing this case, I had no knowledge that my first message regarding COI had not been distributed to the list. I sent a second message containing updated information and asked for confirmation that it had been received, and only at that point received a response that the first message had been held up somehow and was being released to the list along with the updated second message. I initiated this case under the assumption that no action had yet been taken because a formal complaint had yet to be filed regarding Tgeairn's misbehavior in a) repeatedly and categorically denying that any COI whatsoever exists, b) continuing to misrepresent sources and what they have said in activity attributable to the COI, and c) blanking and editing based in COI advocacy. The speculation that this filing is some sort of tit-for-tat revenge in response to another editor's (certainly not Tgeairn) recent filing that went absolutely nowhere, is unwarranted and insulting. I hope that those with access to the fuller story will come to a decision, and will respond to them should they require further information. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)		*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}} and {{u\|Cailil}}: I am unsure why you have continued to speculate about the emails here, when it might be more productive to ask a functionary about the matter. The evidence for COI is beyond reasonable doubt. That this COI is known to others is confirmed by Tgeairn's acknowledgement of "combinations of accurate and inaccurate personal information in conjunction with my Misplaced Pages identity" to Callanecc. That would have had to have come from other quarters, unless Tgeairn had somehow been made aware of my first email to functionaries. But as the matter was independently discovered by at least 2 editors here (aside from myself), Tgeairn was more likely aware that the cat was out of the bag off-Wiki, though his denials have continued here. Until after filing this case, I had no knowledge that my first message regarding COI had not been distributed to the list. I sent a second message containing updated information and asked for confirmation that it had been received, and only at that point received a response that the first message had been held up somehow and was being released to the list along with the updated second message. I initiated this case under the assumption that no action had yet been taken because a formal complaint had yet to be filed regarding Tgeairn's misbehavior in a) repeatedly and categorically denying that any COI whatsoever exists, b) continuing to misrepresent sources and what they have said in activity attributable to the COI, and c) blanking and editing based in COI advocacy. The speculation that this filing is some sort of tit-for-tat revenge in response to another editor's (certainly not Tgeairn) recent filing that went absolutely nowhere, is unwarranted and insulting. I hope that those with access to the fuller story will come to a decision, and will respond to them should they require further information. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

	*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}}: Please go through the list of diffs once again. The diffs illustrate instances of deletions/blanking of material cited to reliable sources, including highly regarded academic works, on purely trumped-up or ] grounds. This is a violation of the arbcom remedy. Tgeairn has not edited (i.e., in his activity in blanking cited material) based upon reliable sources to show that the cited material related to Landmark is invalid and should be removed. This activity following upon arbcom's decision and imposition of DS is a direct violation of the arbcom injunction to keep the basis "in reliable, independent sources" and not to "revert on sight". Detecting POV is something that would require cracking some books to look at what they say. Deleting cited statements, without a basis in reliable sources, is POV, and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" be reported. Rather than providing additional content based in reliable sources that give any alternative views, Tgeairn has simply blanked sourced statements (and sometime the references themselves) repeatedly on nothing more than his say-so, in spite of the arbcom remedy. The arbs in the case did not directly address POV as it involved content-related material. Moreover, Tgeairn has repeatedly, blatantly and categorically misrepresented his COI, his latest and more carefully parsed statement notwithstanding, which should be troubling in itself even if those with a fuller picture have yet to comment here. This filing was to provide a case upon which to act upon that information, rather than to provide details which fall under the outing restrictions. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)		*Reply to {{u\|HJ Mitchell}}: Please go through the list of diffs once again. The diffs illustrate instances of deletions/blanking of material cited to reliable sources, including highly regarded academic works, on purely trumped-up or ] grounds. This is a violation of the arbcom remedy. Tgeairn has not edited (i.e., in his activity in blanking cited material) based upon reliable sources to show that the cited material related to Landmark is invalid and should be removed. This activity following upon arbcom's decision and imposition of DS is a direct violation of the arbcom injunction to keep the basis "in reliable, independent sources" and not to "revert on sight". Detecting POV is something that would require cracking some books to look at what they say. Deleting cited statements, without a basis in reliable sources, is POV, and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" be reported. Rather than providing additional content based in reliable sources that give any alternative views, Tgeairn has simply blanked sourced statements (and sometime the references themselves) repeatedly on nothing more than his say-so, in spite of the arbcom remedy. The arbs in the case did not directly address POV as it involved content-related material. In the Afd arena, the same sort of deletions were made in Landmark-related content covered by the Landmark DS, with some of these nominations being made apparently in blatant disregard of ]. Moreover, Tgeairn has repeatedly, blatantly and categorically misrepresented his COI, his latest and more carefully parsed statement notwithstanding, which should be troubling in itself even if those with a fuller picture have yet to comment here. This filing was to provide a case upon which to act upon that information, rather than to provide details which fall under the outing restrictions. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

	; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :		; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :